A new player has been asking me in RP perspective, what's the difference between a cleric and a paladin? He likes the idea of a paladin but doesn't like being lawful. He wants a character to do whatever it takes for the sake of good aka chaotic good.
I never DM'ed for a paladin and wasn't very sure of the difference between the cleric and a paladin. Hope some of you can give me an insight on how to tackle this if you don't mind.
Edit: If possible, recommend me a good (as in a good choice not alignment) that would allow having a chaotic good paladin.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Paladins aren't required to be lawful, if that helps. That being said, you can think of clerics as the face of the church, while the paladins are the fist.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Clerics are tied more directly to the worship of a god (though they don’t have to be), but paladins are defined by their oaths, and don’t even necessarily need to have a godly patron, at least paladins in this edition.
Clerics are more like priest/warriors where paladins are warrior/priests.
Chaotic good paladins can work very well. If you want to keep it tied to a religion, I’d suggest just working with the player to either develop a faith that encourages that kind of thing, or Let him be something like the “loose cannon” cop in an 80’s movie.
Paladins are based off of the romantic ideal of a perfectly chivalric knight. You might read some summaries of King Arthur and his round table to get an idea of the roots of the paladin. Over the editions the class has changed to be more of a champion of a deity although once again they changed in 5E to be more a champion of an ideal (eg oath).
Clerics are much more direct servants and mouthpieces for their specific deity. Where the paladin is a warrior directly fighting the enemy of his ideals the cleric is serving a specific aspect (domain) of his or her deity. So while a war cleric might be very similar to a paladin an arcana domain cleric would be significantly different in mechanics. Meanwhile the paladin will always be more focused on her sword or axe over spells.
5e really opens the Paladin class up for varied roleplay styles. Previous editions required Lawful Good alignments - which resulted in very cookie-cuttter paladins - which usually involved being a ‘holier-than-thou’ fighter with a stick up the prosterior, viewing the world in exclusively black and white morality in exchange for a few divine spells and a mount.
But these days, Paladins receive their power through their dedication to their oath. While that still leaves the door open to the old-school ‘lawful good sword arm of god’ - their oath can be just as viably chaotic - with a desire to root our evil at any cost. In fact, the Oath of Vengeance suits this perfectly, with one of the tenets of this oath being ‘by any means necessary’.
To answer the Cleric comparison, clerics are directly tied to a deity. They are in service to that deity, and receive their power from them directly. They are the priests of their god - and their hands and feet on this plane.
Paladins, by comparison, are tied to their oath. Often, that can be an oath to serve a deity, and the ideals that deity stands for, but can be just as much an oath to destroy evil, serve the needy, or protect the helpless.
Paladins are no more tied to a deity than any other class. They may pray to a deity, and serve a deity - but do not receive their power from them. But a deity may still call upon a Paladin to serve them - as with any class.
Take a look for the different oaths at https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin . They're quite varied on what the paladin is devoted to. Only one or two seem like they would require "lawful good stick-up-bum" paladin type, and many are outright incompatible with it.
("Oath of conquest" seems to make the paladin lawful neutral with an option even for lawful evil. "Oath of devotion" is most like the stereotypical lawful good paladin, but doesn't technically require it, neutral good could also fit. Chaotic good might be a stretch though. "Oath of redemption" - ok, this one takes you pretty clearly in the lawful good direction, I can't see how you could RP an oath of redemption paladin as chaotic good or even neutral good. "Oath of the ancients" feels like it almost precludes lawful paladins, based on the description it's a natural fit for chaotic good paladins. Oath of the crown... yeah, this one's the classic Lawful Good paladin. Oath of Vengeance - yeah, this one can be neutral, even seems like it would fit chaotic neutral. ...and of course there's "oathbreaker" oath which is the evil paladin and which is, mechanically, totally playable).
With those options your player can probably find something that fits. If none of those oaths quite match their character concept, it's also fine to let them change the oath around some and write their own, using the mechanics of whichever of the existing oaths is closest.
Edit: If possible, recommend me a good (as in a good choice not alignment) that would allow having a chaotic good paladin.
The king has been torturing the rebel leader for information on the whereabouts of his followers. The rebel leader has held out as long as he can but doesn't think he will last much longer. Let's assume this is a situation where the rebel leader has no chance of escape. The rebel leader pleads to a sympathizer to end his life so he is unable to betray the location of his followers.
If the sympathizer kills the rebel leader, that is still an act of murder which is unlawful. But the deed itself was good to A) end the rebel leader's suffering, B) prevent the location of the rebel hideout being discovered, and as a bonus C) was consensual.
At this point, I say we have a clearly defined good based off of intentions and hopeful outcome for the oppressed/innocent. We also know for sure it was not lawful. The murder itself was unlawful. The king, whose word is law, wanted the rebel leader alive for further interrogation.
Furthermore, the sympathizer is likely to lie about his intentions, saying that murdering the rebel leader does no harm to the king because there is an alternative, or trying to convince the king that the rebel leader spoke the truth when he said he didn't know the whereabouts.
This is a very specific example. There a lot of "whatabouts" and "whatifs" that can be asked at many points throughout this hypothetical, and the answers to those could skew towards neutral or chaotic, but overall I say this is an action that a chaotic good paladin (our sympathizer) in service to the king would make.
Thank you guys for your help! i will use these info to explain it to my player. Lastly, any ideas for a deity that would suit this?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Depends on which pantheon you’re using, which oath they want to take and, to an extent, the character’s race. But really almost any diety can work. Some will take more bending than others, but most of them have a variety of interests, and are willing to support someone working toward those interests, even if they don’t always 100% agree with the methods. And a mildly annoyed deity can be a fun plot hook for a pally that’s pushed it a little day and needs to make amends.
There is a list of Gods of the Multiverse that gives you a lot of choices for deities, including those deities respective alignments. Just choose one that sounds cool that is Chaotic Good.
Chaotic good paladins can work very well. If you want to keep it tied to a religion, I’d suggest just working with the player to either develop a faith that encourages that kind of thing, or Let him be something like the “loose cannon” cop in an 80’s movie.
This is now my favorite take on a paladin.
"Turn in your shield and sword - you're off this case!"
"I don't have time for your 'procedures', there's punks out there that need bustin'."
Paladins are not exclusively Lawful Good in 5e. Pretty much ignore alignment all together, it exists only as a roleplay guide. It has no mechanical effect.
Instead, have the player look at the tenets of the different Paladin Oaths, and if one (or more) of them fit how he thinks his character would act, then you are all set, just pick that oath.
Or work with him to come up with Tenets that still fit the Oath but more suit his needs.
Conquest
A paladin who takes this oath has the tenets of conquest seared on the upper arm.
Douse the Flame of Hope. It is not enough to merely defeat an enemy in battle. Your victory must be so overwhelming that your enemies’ will to fight is shattered forever. A blade can end a life. Fear can end an empire.
Rule with an Iron Fist. Once you have conquered, tolerate no dissent. Your word is law. Those who obey it shall be favored. Those who defy it shall be punished as an example to all who might follow.
Strength Above All. You shall rule until a stronger one arises. Then you must grow mightier and meet the challenge, or fall to your own ruin.
Devotion
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.
Redemption
The tenets of the Oath of Redemption hold a paladin to a high standard of peace and justice.
Peace. Violence is a weapon of last resort. Diplomacy and understanding are the paths to long-lasting peace.
Innocence. All people begin life in an innocent state, and it is their environment or the influence of dark forces that drives them to evil. By setting the proper example, and working to heal the wounds of a deeply flawed world, you can set anyone on a righteous path.
Patience. Change takes time. Those who have walked the path of the wicked must be given reminders to keep them honest and true. Once you have planted the seed of righteousness in a creature, you must work day after day to allow that seed to survive and flourish.
Wisdom. Your heart and mind must stay clear, for eventually you will be forced to admit defeat. While every creature can be redeemed, some are so far along the path of evil that you have no choice but to end their lives for the greater good. Any such action must be carefully weighed and the consequences fully understood, but once you have made the decision, follow through with it knowing your path is just.
Ancients
The tenets of the Oath of the Ancients have been preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.
Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.
Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.
Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.
Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.
Crown
The tenets of the Oath of the Crown are often set by the sovereign to which their oath is sworn, but generally emphasize the following tenets.
Law. The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.
Loyalty. Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.
Courage. You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don’t act, then who will?
Responsibility. You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.
Vengeance
The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin, but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers by any means necessary. Paladins who uphold these tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do evil, so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral in alignment. The core principles of the tenets are brutally simple.
Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil.
No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.
By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can’t get in the way of exterminating my foes.
Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.
A new player has been asking me in RP perspective, what's the difference between a cleric and a paladin? He likes the idea of a paladin but doesn't like being lawful. He wants a character to do whatever it takes for the sake of good aka chaotic good.
I never DM'ed for a paladin and wasn't very sure of the difference between the cleric and a paladin. Hope some of you can give me an insight on how to tackle this if you don't mind.
Edit: If possible, recommend me a good (as in a good choice not alignment) that would allow having a chaotic good paladin.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Paladins aren't required to be lawful, if that helps. That being said, you can think of clerics as the face of the church, while the paladins are the fist.
Clerics are tied more directly to the worship of a god (though they don’t have to be), but paladins are defined by their oaths, and don’t even necessarily need to have a godly patron, at least paladins in this edition.
Clerics are more like priest/warriors where paladins are warrior/priests.
Chaotic good paladins can work very well. If you want to keep it tied to a religion, I’d suggest just working with the player to either develop a faith that encourages that kind of thing, or Let him be something like the “loose cannon” cop in an 80’s movie.
Paladins are based off of the romantic ideal of a perfectly chivalric knight. You might read some summaries of King Arthur and his round table to get an idea of the roots of the paladin. Over the editions the class has changed to be more of a champion of a deity although once again they changed in 5E to be more a champion of an ideal (eg oath).
Clerics are much more direct servants and mouthpieces for their specific deity. Where the paladin is a warrior directly fighting the enemy of his ideals the cleric is serving a specific aspect (domain) of his or her deity. So while a war cleric might be very similar to a paladin an arcana domain cleric would be significantly different in mechanics. Meanwhile the paladin will always be more focused on her sword or axe over spells.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
5e really opens the Paladin class up for varied roleplay styles. Previous editions required Lawful Good alignments - which resulted in very cookie-cuttter paladins - which usually involved being a ‘holier-than-thou’ fighter with a stick up the prosterior, viewing the world in exclusively black and white morality in exchange for a few divine spells and a mount.
But these days, Paladins receive their power through their dedication to their oath. While that still leaves the door open to the old-school ‘lawful good sword arm of god’ - their oath can be just as viably chaotic - with a desire to root our evil at any cost. In fact, the Oath of Vengeance suits this perfectly, with one of the tenets of this oath being ‘by any means necessary’.
To answer the Cleric comparison, clerics are directly tied to a deity. They are in service to that deity, and receive their power from them directly. They are the priests of their god - and their hands and feet on this plane.
Paladins, by comparison, are tied to their oath. Often, that can be an oath to serve a deity, and the ideals that deity stands for, but can be just as much an oath to destroy evil, serve the needy, or protect the helpless.
Paladins are no more tied to a deity than any other class. They may pray to a deity, and serve a deity - but do not receive their power from them. But a deity may still call upon a Paladin to serve them - as with any class.
Take a look for the different oaths at https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin . They're quite varied on what the paladin is devoted to. Only one or two seem like they would require "lawful good stick-up-bum" paladin type, and many are outright incompatible with it.
("Oath of conquest" seems to make the paladin lawful neutral with an option even for lawful evil. "Oath of devotion" is most like the stereotypical lawful good paladin, but doesn't technically require it, neutral good could also fit. Chaotic good might be a stretch though. "Oath of redemption" - ok, this one takes you pretty clearly in the lawful good direction, I can't see how you could RP an oath of redemption paladin as chaotic good or even neutral good. "Oath of the ancients" feels like it almost precludes lawful paladins, based on the description it's a natural fit for chaotic good paladins. Oath of the crown... yeah, this one's the classic Lawful Good paladin. Oath of Vengeance - yeah, this one can be neutral, even seems like it would fit chaotic neutral. ...and of course there's "oathbreaker" oath which is the evil paladin and which is, mechanically, totally playable).
With those options your player can probably find something that fits. If none of those oaths quite match their character concept, it's also fine to let them change the oath around some and write their own, using the mechanics of whichever of the existing oaths is closest.
The king has been torturing the rebel leader for information on the whereabouts of his followers. The rebel leader has held out as long as he can but doesn't think he will last much longer. Let's assume this is a situation where the rebel leader has no chance of escape. The rebel leader pleads to a sympathizer to end his life so he is unable to betray the location of his followers.
If the sympathizer kills the rebel leader, that is still an act of murder which is unlawful. But the deed itself was good to A) end the rebel leader's suffering, B) prevent the location of the rebel hideout being discovered, and as a bonus C) was consensual.
At this point, I say we have a clearly defined good based off of intentions and hopeful outcome for the oppressed/innocent. We also know for sure it was not lawful. The murder itself was unlawful. The king, whose word is law, wanted the rebel leader alive for further interrogation.
Furthermore, the sympathizer is likely to lie about his intentions, saying that murdering the rebel leader does no harm to the king because there is an alternative, or trying to convince the king that the rebel leader spoke the truth when he said he didn't know the whereabouts.
This is a very specific example. There a lot of "whatabouts" and "whatifs" that can be asked at many points throughout this hypothetical, and the answers to those could skew towards neutral or chaotic, but overall I say this is an action that a chaotic good paladin (our sympathizer) in service to the king would make.
Thank you guys for your help! i will use these info to explain it to my player. Lastly, any ideas for a deity that would suit this?
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Depends on which pantheon you’re using, which oath they want to take and, to an extent, the character’s race. But really almost any diety can work. Some will take more bending than others, but most of them have a variety of interests, and are willing to support someone working toward those interests, even if they don’t always 100% agree with the methods. And a mildly annoyed deity can be a fun plot hook for a pally that’s pushed it a little day and needs to make amends.
Paladin more fighty. Cleric more spellcastery.
There are no alignment restrictions on any class or subclass in 5e, so that's a complete non-issue.
Neither paladins nor clerics require gods, so that's a non-issue as well.
There is a list of Gods of the Multiverse that gives you a lot of choices for deities, including those deities respective alignments. Just choose one that sounds cool that is Chaotic Good.
This is now my favorite take on a paladin.
"Turn in your shield and sword - you're off this case!"
"I don't have time for your 'procedures', there's punks out there that need bustin'."
Thank you, I’m here all week.
Paladins are not exclusively Lawful Good in 5e. Pretty much ignore alignment all together, it exists only as a roleplay guide. It has no mechanical effect.
Instead, have the player look at the tenets of the different Paladin Oaths, and if one (or more) of them fit how he thinks his character would act, then you are all set, just pick that oath.
Or work with him to come up with Tenets that still fit the Oath but more suit his needs.
Conquest
A paladin who takes this oath has the tenets of conquest seared on the upper arm.
Douse the Flame of Hope. It is not enough to merely defeat an enemy in battle. Your victory must be so overwhelming that your enemies’ will to fight is shattered forever. A blade can end a life. Fear can end an empire.
Rule with an Iron Fist. Once you have conquered, tolerate no dissent. Your word is law. Those who obey it shall be favored. Those who defy it shall be punished as an example to all who might follow.
Strength Above All. You shall rule until a stronger one arises. Then you must grow mightier and meet the challenge, or fall to your own ruin.
Devotion
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.
Redemption
The tenets of the Oath of Redemption hold a paladin to a high standard of peace and justice.
Peace. Violence is a weapon of last resort. Diplomacy and understanding are the paths to long-lasting peace.
Innocence. All people begin life in an innocent state, and it is their environment or the influence of dark forces that drives them to evil. By setting the proper example, and working to heal the wounds of a deeply flawed world, you can set anyone on a righteous path.
Patience. Change takes time. Those who have walked the path of the wicked must be given reminders to keep them honest and true. Once you have planted the seed of righteousness in a creature, you must work day after day to allow that seed to survive and flourish.
Wisdom. Your heart and mind must stay clear, for eventually you will be forced to admit defeat. While every creature can be redeemed, some are so far along the path of evil that you have no choice but to end their lives for the greater good. Any such action must be carefully weighed and the consequences fully understood, but once you have made the decision, follow through with it knowing your path is just.
Ancients
The tenets of the Oath of the Ancients have been preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.
Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.
Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.
Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.
Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.
Crown
The tenets of the Oath of the Crown are often set by the sovereign to which their oath is sworn, but generally emphasize the following tenets.
Law. The law is paramount. It is the mortar that holds the stones of civilization together, and it must be respected.
Loyalty. Your word is your bond. Without loyalty, oaths and laws are meaningless.
Courage. You must be willing to do what needs to be done for the sake of order, even in the face of overwhelming odds. If you don’t act, then who will?
Responsibility. You must deal with the consequences of your actions, and you are responsible for fulfilling your duties and obligations.
Vengeance
The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin, but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers by any means necessary. Paladins who uphold these tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do evil, so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral in alignment. The core principles of the tenets are brutally simple.
Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a lesser evil, I choose the greater evil.
No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.
By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can’t get in the way of exterminating my foes.
Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.
Site Info: Wizard's ToS | Fan Content Policy | Forum Rules | Physical Books | Content Not Working | Contact Support
How To: Homebrew Rules | Create Homebrew | Snippet Codes | Tool Tips (Custom) | Rollables (Generator)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Feats | Spells | Magic Items
Other: Beyond20 | Page References | Other Guides | Entitlements | Dice Randomization | Images Fix | FAQ
Clerics cast divine spells and hit things. Paladins hit things and cast divine spells.
"Not all those who wander are lost"