Bit of background - I used to play D&D with my husband and (then tweenage) son a few years back. Nothing serious, just an alternative take on family board game night. Hubs and I used to take it in turns to DM, and we'd run mini-quests and standalones. We then had another sprongling 2 years ago who has medical issues, so D&D has been pushed to the backburner since she was born.
Since lockdown, we've started playing again, first the three of us and Hub's best friend (who is quiet, shy and had never played before), which worked really well for a short taster quest over videochat. Hubs then asked the table if he could invite another friend of his, who had been going through a really rough time. We all said yes, and he joined for his first session 5 weeks ago.
This new friend had never played before, either, but, in the nicest possible way, considers himself a bit of a King of the Geeks. In fact, when I (as DM) strongly recommended against having a Tiefling Cleric as his first ever character because Tieflings can be tricky to play, he ignored me, said he'd be fine, and proceeded to do it anyway, telling me he had 15 years of geekery training behind him and it wasn't anything he couldn't handle.
To give credit where it's due, he's been extremely enthusiastic with his research, and has thrown himself into the character heart, body, and soul. The problem is that he is not just treading on my toes, but pretty much running over me and the rest of the party with his enthusiasm to be The Hero. He's always the first to speak, even when I direct a question or statement to another party member, every NPC they encounter gets interrogated for a full 20-30 minutes, every door is checked for traps, every move is debated (at his instigation) for several minutes. As for the Tiefling aspect that he so fought for; he ignores his race until it is useful to him, then makes a big song and dance about it. The whole quest has become very much about what he'll do, rather than what the party will do.
For example, I'm running Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. When they got the deeds to the tavern, he decided that his temple (Lathander) would be able to help with repair bills. He then took it upon himself to write an entire essay detailing a conversation his character had with the priestess who raised his character, which he then brought it up in the session in front of the rest of the group. In his defence, he had emailed it to me a day beforehand, but I hadn't actually seen it as I was busy and hadn't had a chance to read my emails, and I hadn't been expecting anything like that from anyone in the party, because no one had checked with me to ask if it was okay. The writing was brilliant, but the conclusion was that the temple would pay for significant amount of the repairs, which, even if it had been believable, would have completely killed off the side quests I had planned so that they could earn enough money to pay for them themselves. I had to ditch it in front of everyone, which made the rest of the session pretty awkward, especially as the whole time I was reading the email (he insisted I had a look at it), he was saying how he had just been wanting to help, and that it was up to me if I used it or not but that it would solve all their problems. We've just finished one of the side quests quests I had planned, which was Blue Alley, and it ended up taking 11.5 eye-wateringly dull hours to run because he would spent so long trying to figure out all of the puzzles before anyone was allowed to move into a room.
To top it off, despite having this explained to him, he doesn't seem to understand Rule 0. When I say that this is how something-or-other works, he'll flick thorugh his PHB to double check, whereas if Hubs says "that works like this", he'll be happy with it. It's now at the point where Hubs is jumping in before me whenever there is a technical/rule question, which is just undermining me further. I have discussed this with Hubs, and he's going to defer back to me, but, given that I hadn't played in several years and this was my first time DMing in that long, I'm losing my confidence and drive. Prepping feels like a chore, whereas I used to enjoy it, and running a session leaves me frustrated and fed up.
I've never DM'd for anyone other than Hubs and Bubs until all of this, and so I'm not 100% sure on how to deal with it. I'll take all the advice you have to offer!
Well for one thing, the other players don't have to listen to him. Just because his cleric says, "Don't go in there," doesn't mean your son's halfling rogue has to listen to him. To some degree they need to speak up and stop deferring to him and letting him take over the scene.
Otherwise this is a very tough one. You don't want to shut down his enthusiasm -- what he's doing is frustrating but is coming from a place of excitement and you don't want to kill that. On the other hand, if he's frustrating you and the other players, that needs to stop or people (and you) are going to just not want to keep playing. This probably needs an out-of-game chat, but since he's your husband's friend and not yours, that could be very difficult. Maybe you and the husband can chat with him together and you can explain things that way. But event here he might feel ganged up on... honestly I'm not sure of a good way to handle this that might not risk him having hurt feelings.
You could couch this in terms of D&D etiquette -- that it is not done in D&D where one player always speaks. That he definitely should NOT be answering for other characters. Things like that.
But again, doing this without killing his enthusiasm is going to be very tricky. I don't have any good answers for you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Two things really need to be brought up with this player:
One, just because a player thinks up an action doesn't mean it works. The fact that you want to do something in the game does not mean that you will succeed in doing so. This goes double when it comes to dictating NPC actions- you want to get the church your character belongs to to pay for something? Sorry, but you're not someone with the authority to make promises like that. That's generally the case for adventurers anyway- even if you've got the Noble background you don't have unlimited money to throw around.
Two, being a prima donna is not a virtue. D&D is a cooperative game, one person should not be dominating the spotlight. He does not get to play the game at the expense of the enjoyment of other peoples', and he especially does ot get to continually argue with or undermine the GM.
I get that confronting him may be awkward or even hard, but OP, that post raised a lot of red flags to me as a player and GM and you really aren't doing anyone at the gaming table any favors by not doing so.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
1st, way to jump into DMing! Facilitating an environment for players to get together and have fun is rewarding (hopefully) and satisfying.
This story strongly resonates with me. I had a very similar situation at my table with a group of randoms that agreed to get together every Saturday to play Storm King's Thunder. There was a player who decided that he wanted to play the Brave Hero and Save the Day. He did the same sort of things that your Hero is doing. After weeks of hoping that he'd realise how he was affecting me and the other players at the table with his behaviour without change, I emailed him and let him know that he needed to adjust his behaviour. I agonized over that email, sending it to a couple of more experienced DMs than myself for approval and edits. After a couple of edits, a lot of encouragement, and a week of stress, I emailed the ultimatum to Brave Hero.
It didn't end well. I'll spare the details but banning him from the table was the only option left to me. The 1st session with him gone was a world of difference.
"...because Tieflings can be tricky to play, he ignored me, said he'd be fine, and proceeded to do it anyway, telling me he had 15 years of geekery training behind him and it wasn't anything he couldn't handle." It sounds like he's sidelined you before even really starting. No DM should have a player like that at their table, regardless of the DM's experience or knowledge of the game.
"...he is not just treading on my toes, but pretty much running over me and the rest of the party with his enthusiasm to be The Hero. He's always the first to speak, even when I direct a question or statement to another party member, every NPC they encounter gets interrogated for a full 20-30 minutes, every door is checked for traps, every move is debated (at his instigation) for several minutes. As for the Tiefling aspect that he so fought for; he ignores his race until it is useful to him, then makes a big song and dance about it. The whole quest has become very much about what he'll do, rather than what the party will do." Perhaps he's unaware of his actions. Maybe having a quiet talk with him, explaining how his play affects other players would help. I'd advise against accusing him directly as he's going to feel attacked as soon as you ask to have a discussion with him. Try recommending that he allow other players to have the final say. Maybe consider rewarding the party somehow for teamwork.
"...took it upon himself to write an entire essay". Huge red flag! He may consider himself the protagonist and everyone else, including you, to be inconsequential. I'd recommend thanking him for his creativity, state that circumstances and actions outside of direct player actions are the DM's jurisdiction, and ask him to come up with ideas for interesting conversations with his fellow players, in character.
I suspect that there's a lot more going on here than you related. I wish you good luck and I hope that you can resolve this situation by regaining your authority at your table.
Guys, first of all, thank you all so much for your suggestions and support. This is why I love, love, LOVE the D&D community. You guys rock.
So, I've been trying to steer him towards the correct etiquette in gameplay and in the group WhatsApp. It hasn't worked. He's been just as argumentative and difficult as ever. In fact, it has just come to a head this afternoon where, over the group chat, one of the others asked if they can roleplay their PCs therapy session. I agreed, and he started off the RP by asking prices, etc. He's a Barbarian who is unhappy with his anger issues, so we RPed a great session where he decides (after a private chat with me) that he wants his Rage to be less blind rage and more directional focus. Its a minor adjustment and I allowed it. The rest of the party discussed what they'd been using their downtime for (learning brewing, scribing, wandering the marketplace, etc) and the Cleric decided he was going to have a conversation with the priestess I mentioned in my op, and she would make introductions for him to go and perform pastoral service with the City Watch. A mild overstep, given he was dictating what he wanted an NPC to do and say, but I was happy to allow it, except he them went on to say how he would help the guards out with by subduing difficult prisoners, and what rewards he wanted for doing it. I shot it all down and told him it was something we needed to RP, and that, as a heads up, the Watch would be unhappy with him stepping in and hitting their prisoners (obviously a courtesy I didn't have to offer him, but I didn't want him to get into arguments with the Watch before the session started!). He wanted an intro, I asked him to present to the Watch House, which he wouldn't do without an intro, but wouldn't go to the temple to ask for said intro. He them got into a hissy and said not to bother, that he'd just do normal service at the temple. This was all on the group chat. Yup. Super awkward.
I messaged him privately, and explained that I thought there was some confusion over our roles. That the players had total control over the actions of their PC, but not over the world around them, and that I, as DM, has control over the world and NPCs, but not over the PCs. He replied with a rather snooty, "I've never been confused over that". My response was to point out that he had clearly been telling me what he was expecting to happen, and that it put me in a very difficult position, as the other players would wonder why they couldn't decide their own outcomes if I allowed what he suggested, but that he would feel frustrated and confused as to why I wasn't accepting his help if I didn't allow it. I was as gentle as I could be over it, because I don't want either myself or Hubs to lose a friend over something this petty, but he's decided to get rather standoffish with me and chalk it up to the fact we play over Zoom and not face to face, but that he would stick to what his PC is doing and saying, not what they want, to avoid any further "misunderstandings", then refused to talk to me any more. Tonight is going to be fun!!!
On the plus side, we've just found out I'm pregnant, so I'll be handing over the DMing reins to Hubs after this campaign, and then all of this crap is his problem! I'll have nappy-loads of real-life crap to deal with 💩 (and time to plot my return, mwahahahaha!!!)
It sounds like you did all you could. I think stating it that you control the NPCs and the PCs don't, was a really nice way to go about it. Good luck with everytyhing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Quote from BioWizard> It sounds like you did all you could. I think stating it that you control the NPCs and the PCs don't, was a really nice way to go about it.
Thanks. I'd been trying to work out how to have that discussion without coming off as a bit of a cow. I'm glad I got that bit right.
Not going to lie. I'm dreading tonight's session. It's really going to be make or break for the group.
It is always a shame when as a DM, you have to be stressed out about the social aspect of the table, instead of spending your time doing what you should be doing, like reviewing maps and NPC abilities and things like that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Sorry, this is a bit of a long one.
Bit of background - I used to play D&D with my husband and (then tweenage) son a few years back. Nothing serious, just an alternative take on family board game night. Hubs and I used to take it in turns to DM, and we'd run mini-quests and standalones. We then had another sprongling 2 years ago who has medical issues, so D&D has been pushed to the backburner since she was born.
Since lockdown, we've started playing again, first the three of us and Hub's best friend (who is quiet, shy and had never played before), which worked really well for a short taster quest over videochat. Hubs then asked the table if he could invite another friend of his, who had been going through a really rough time. We all said yes, and he joined for his first session 5 weeks ago.
This new friend had never played before, either, but, in the nicest possible way, considers himself a bit of a King of the Geeks. In fact, when I (as DM) strongly recommended against having a Tiefling Cleric as his first ever character because Tieflings can be tricky to play, he ignored me, said he'd be fine, and proceeded to do it anyway, telling me he had 15 years of geekery training behind him and it wasn't anything he couldn't handle.
To give credit where it's due, he's been extremely enthusiastic with his research, and has thrown himself into the character heart, body, and soul. The problem is that he is not just treading on my toes, but pretty much running over me and the rest of the party with his enthusiasm to be The Hero. He's always the first to speak, even when I direct a question or statement to another party member, every NPC they encounter gets interrogated for a full 20-30 minutes, every door is checked for traps, every move is debated (at his instigation) for several minutes. As for the Tiefling aspect that he so fought for; he ignores his race until it is useful to him, then makes a big song and dance about it. The whole quest has become very much about what he'll do, rather than what the party will do.
For example, I'm running Waterdeep: Dragon Heist. When they got the deeds to the tavern, he decided that his temple (Lathander) would be able to help with repair bills. He then took it upon himself to write an entire essay detailing a conversation his character had with the priestess who raised his character, which he then brought it up in the session in front of the rest of the group. In his defence, he had emailed it to me a day beforehand, but I hadn't actually seen it as I was busy and hadn't had a chance to read my emails, and I hadn't been expecting anything like that from anyone in the party, because no one had checked with me to ask if it was okay. The writing was brilliant, but the conclusion was that the temple would pay for significant amount of the repairs, which, even if it had been believable, would have completely killed off the side quests I had planned so that they could earn enough money to pay for them themselves. I had to ditch it in front of everyone, which made the rest of the session pretty awkward, especially as the whole time I was reading the email (he insisted I had a look at it), he was saying how he had just been wanting to help, and that it was up to me if I used it or not but that it would solve all their problems. We've just finished one of the side quests quests I had planned, which was Blue Alley, and it ended up taking 11.5 eye-wateringly dull hours to run because he would spent so long trying to figure out all of the puzzles before anyone was allowed to move into a room.
To top it off, despite having this explained to him, he doesn't seem to understand Rule 0. When I say that this is how something-or-other works, he'll flick thorugh his PHB to double check, whereas if Hubs says "that works like this", he'll be happy with it. It's now at the point where Hubs is jumping in before me whenever there is a technical/rule question, which is just undermining me further. I have discussed this with Hubs, and he's going to defer back to me, but, given that I hadn't played in several years and this was my first time DMing in that long, I'm losing my confidence and drive. Prepping feels like a chore, whereas I used to enjoy it, and running a session leaves me frustrated and fed up.
I've never DM'd for anyone other than Hubs and Bubs until all of this, and so I'm not 100% sure on how to deal with it. I'll take all the advice you have to offer!
Well for one thing, the other players don't have to listen to him. Just because his cleric says, "Don't go in there," doesn't mean your son's halfling rogue has to listen to him. To some degree they need to speak up and stop deferring to him and letting him take over the scene.
Otherwise this is a very tough one. You don't want to shut down his enthusiasm -- what he's doing is frustrating but is coming from a place of excitement and you don't want to kill that. On the other hand, if he's frustrating you and the other players, that needs to stop or people (and you) are going to just not want to keep playing. This probably needs an out-of-game chat, but since he's your husband's friend and not yours, that could be very difficult. Maybe you and the husband can chat with him together and you can explain things that way. But event here he might feel ganged up on... honestly I'm not sure of a good way to handle this that might not risk him having hurt feelings.
You could couch this in terms of D&D etiquette -- that it is not done in D&D where one player always speaks. That he definitely should NOT be answering for other characters. Things like that.
But again, doing this without killing his enthusiasm is going to be very tricky. I don't have any good answers for you.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
When in doubt, I turn to the guru:
Different types of players: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LQsJSqn71Fw
Dealing with problem players: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-lEi9DAn9rE
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Two things really need to be brought up with this player:
One, just because a player thinks up an action doesn't mean it works. The fact that you want to do something in the game does not mean that you will succeed in doing so. This goes double when it comes to dictating NPC actions- you want to get the church your character belongs to to pay for something? Sorry, but you're not someone with the authority to make promises like that. That's generally the case for adventurers anyway- even if you've got the Noble background you don't have unlimited money to throw around.
Two, being a prima donna is not a virtue. D&D is a cooperative game, one person should not be dominating the spotlight. He does not get to play the game at the expense of the enjoyment of other peoples', and he especially does ot get to continually argue with or undermine the GM.
I get that confronting him may be awkward or even hard, but OP, that post raised a lot of red flags to me as a player and GM and you really aren't doing anyone at the gaming table any favors by not doing so.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
1st, way to jump into DMing! Facilitating an environment for players to get together and have fun is rewarding (hopefully) and satisfying.
This story strongly resonates with me. I had a very similar situation at my table with a group of randoms that agreed to get together every Saturday to play Storm King's Thunder. There was a player who decided that he wanted to play the Brave Hero and Save the Day. He did the same sort of things that your Hero is doing. After weeks of hoping that he'd realise how he was affecting me and the other players at the table with his behaviour without change, I emailed him and let him know that he needed to adjust his behaviour. I agonized over that email, sending it to a couple of more experienced DMs than myself for approval and edits. After a couple of edits, a lot of encouragement, and a week of stress, I emailed the ultimatum to Brave Hero.
It didn't end well. I'll spare the details but banning him from the table was the only option left to me. The 1st session with him gone was a world of difference.
"...because Tieflings can be tricky to play, he ignored me, said he'd be fine, and proceeded to do it anyway, telling me he had 15 years of geekery training behind him and it wasn't anything he couldn't handle." It sounds like he's sidelined you before even really starting. No DM should have a player like that at their table, regardless of the DM's experience or knowledge of the game.
"...he is not just treading on my toes, but pretty much running over me and the rest of the party with his enthusiasm to be The Hero. He's always the first to speak, even when I direct a question or statement to another party member, every NPC they encounter gets interrogated for a full 20-30 minutes, every door is checked for traps, every move is debated (at his instigation) for several minutes. As for the Tiefling aspect that he so fought for; he ignores his race until it is useful to him, then makes a big song and dance about it. The whole quest has become very much about what he'll do, rather than what the party will do." Perhaps he's unaware of his actions. Maybe having a quiet talk with him, explaining how his play affects other players would help. I'd advise against accusing him directly as he's going to feel attacked as soon as you ask to have a discussion with him. Try recommending that he allow other players to have the final say. Maybe consider rewarding the party somehow for teamwork.
"...took it upon himself to write an entire essay". Huge red flag! He may consider himself the protagonist and everyone else, including you, to be inconsequential. I'd recommend thanking him for his creativity, state that circumstances and actions outside of direct player actions are the DM's jurisdiction, and ask him to come up with ideas for interesting conversations with his fellow players, in character.
I suspect that there's a lot more going on here than you related. I wish you good luck and I hope that you can resolve this situation by regaining your authority at your table.
Guys, first of all, thank you all so much for your suggestions and support. This is why I love, love, LOVE the D&D community. You guys rock.
So, I've been trying to steer him towards the correct etiquette in gameplay and in the group WhatsApp. It hasn't worked. He's been just as argumentative and difficult as ever. In fact, it has just come to a head this afternoon where, over the group chat, one of the others asked if they can roleplay their PCs therapy session. I agreed, and he started off the RP by asking prices, etc. He's a Barbarian who is unhappy with his anger issues, so we RPed a great session where he decides (after a private chat with me) that he wants his Rage to be less blind rage and more directional focus. Its a minor adjustment and I allowed it. The rest of the party discussed what they'd been using their downtime for (learning brewing, scribing, wandering the marketplace, etc) and the Cleric decided he was going to have a conversation with the priestess I mentioned in my op, and she would make introductions for him to go and perform pastoral service with the City Watch. A mild overstep, given he was dictating what he wanted an NPC to do and say, but I was happy to allow it, except he them went on to say how he would help the guards out with by subduing difficult prisoners, and what rewards he wanted for doing it. I shot it all down and told him it was something we needed to RP, and that, as a heads up, the Watch would be unhappy with him stepping in and hitting their prisoners (obviously a courtesy I didn't have to offer him, but I didn't want him to get into arguments with the Watch before the session started!). He wanted an intro, I asked him to present to the Watch House, which he wouldn't do without an intro, but wouldn't go to the temple to ask for said intro. He them got into a hissy and said not to bother, that he'd just do normal service at the temple. This was all on the group chat. Yup. Super awkward.
I messaged him privately, and explained that I thought there was some confusion over our roles. That the players had total control over the actions of their PC, but not over the world around them, and that I, as DM, has control over the world and NPCs, but not over the PCs. He replied with a rather snooty, "I've never been confused over that". My response was to point out that he had clearly been telling me what he was expecting to happen, and that it put me in a very difficult position, as the other players would wonder why they couldn't decide their own outcomes if I allowed what he suggested, but that he would feel frustrated and confused as to why I wasn't accepting his help if I didn't allow it. I was as gentle as I could be over it, because I don't want either myself or Hubs to lose a friend over something this petty, but he's decided to get rather standoffish with me and chalk it up to the fact we play over Zoom and not face to face, but that he would stick to what his PC is doing and saying, not what they want, to avoid any further "misunderstandings", then refused to talk to me any more. Tonight is going to be fun!!!
On the plus side, we've just found out I'm pregnant, so I'll be handing over the DMing reins to Hubs after this campaign, and then all of this crap is his problem! I'll have nappy-loads of real-life crap to deal with 💩 (and time to plot my return, mwahahahaha!!!)
Thanks for the update. Hope everything works out well for you, both with the game and with your other things.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Congrats on the upcoming little one.
It sounds like you did all you could. I think stating it that you control the NPCs and the PCs don't, was a really nice way to go about it. Good luck with everytyhing.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Congratulations!!
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Thanks guys. We're really excited about Sprog #3.
Thanks. I'd been trying to work out how to have that discussion without coming off as a bit of a cow. I'm glad I got that bit right.
Not going to lie. I'm dreading tonight's session. It's really going to be make or break for the group.
Good luck with it.
It is always a shame when as a DM, you have to be stressed out about the social aspect of the table, instead of spending your time doing what you should be doing, like reviewing maps and NPC abilities and things like that.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Truth
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting