There's a lot to unpack here, but let me say this may not be a fault of the system because my experience is wildly different. - I get told I'm unique in my experience all the time.
Firstly, we use inspiration all the time. It's a great mechanic. If you can't use it because awarding inspiration makes people shout favoritism, you have some form of dysfunctional group dynamics. - I'm unique here too.
Knowing where you are XP wise - What's the problem with that? Wouldn't a fighter who's been practicing a new technique have an idea of how close they are to perfecting it? Wouldn't a wizard know that they were close to (or far from) working out a couple new spells? People get so hung up on the idea that meta-gaming is bad that they deny characters knowledge they would absolutely have just by living their lives. - When the XP gets handed out, at the end of the session, the end of the week, whatever, if you are very close to leveling, you may be unhappy or not because you didn't quite get there. That's good or bad depending on your mood. The same goes if you are a long way away from your next level. You may or may not feel discouraged because you know you have a long way to go. With Milestone, you simply have no idea at all.
Milestones forcing delayed leveling - More than half the time I've played with XP (including older editions of the game), the DM wouldn't let us actually get the benefit of our levels until we returned to town and got some downtime anyway. If you're doing milestones, you can extend or shorten an adventure if the pacing is way off. Or you are intentionally leveling faster or slower than XP would, making this a feature rather than a flaw. - With Milestone, you cannot tell if the DM is dragging their feet and forcing extra sessions in for whatever reason. With XP, you know.
No RP in combat, arguing about DCs, different rules for different characters - again, this is not the game I'm playing. Maybe you need to find a new group because this is not the way the game plays out for everyone. You just sound really bummed about the game as a whole. - More of my uniqueness.
I think both systems are great and have different strengths. Milestones are super convenient and allow the DM full control in pacing character growth. XP is more transparent and gives you an auxiliary reward system that is extremely flexible and robust. I default to milestone because my game is really story-driven and it's simply easier, but I can't deny the utility of the XP system and I'm really tempted to try to use it in my next campaign. - On this, we agree.
If a DM is doing their job right then as a group you should never sit there thinking, he is dragging his feet on levelling with milestone, they should feel the story is approaching a peak moment and know that will build to a natural levelling point. As the game and story progresses those peaks will get higher and it should be really clear, we have killed a lieutenant, we have the next piece of the puzzle, we got through the dessert on our way to the next city but we have not achieved the thing we are setting out to do.
But I also let my players know the guidlines to which I am levelling them. Levelling should never be a race though, players need time to explore and enjoy the various aspects of their character at that level. I would say as much as I love milestone levelling but if your party is a pretzles and beer type party just into dungeon crawls and not the nuance of round the table roleplay or multi layered storytelling then probably XP is the way to go.
When the XP gets handed out, at the end of the session, the end of the week, whatever, if you are very close to leveling, you may be unhappy or not because you didn't quite get there.
If my players ever said they were unhappy with the amount of XP I gave out because they were so close to leveling, I would tell them to find another DM.
No, really... they need 10,000 XP to level, and they earned 9,600 in this adventure, and they're going to be grumpy about it? As a DM, I didn't "owe" them 10,000 XP. And if their attitude is going to be that I "owe" them enough XP to level, then I do not want to DM for that group of players.
Fortunately my players are NOT that way. But it they were, they wouldn't be my players, because I'd already have stopped DMing.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Never bothered with XP after one dungeon crawl I made for them. I found they leveled at the "wrong" time for the dungeon, in many places trivializing encounters and in a couple, almost TPK because they ended up a bit behind. Constantly juggling encounters to match them was a pain and I scrapped it.
Now, it's milestone, which means they might gain a level each session for 1-2 sessions, then not gain for 3-4 sessions, as they didn't progress as I had anticipated. This allows me to set up a handful of encounters, KNOWING what level they group will be when they run into it. Less reworking, less risk of TPK (aside from just fudging rolls to let them walk through) So far as them knowing when they will level? They never know, as I present a level as a revelation that they realized in that last fight their strikes felt more natural, their spells rolled off with barely a thought and so forth. I find it a lot simpler to manage and the progression makes more sense.
As the OP said, EVERY table has a method that works best for them and to me, that is the most important. The leveling process matching the players/DM preference.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I think one problem with this question on the milestone side is that hours played vs. sessions can really differ depending on the DM.
Here are my thoughts- mind you our sessions run 2-3 hours:
Level 1 to 2: About 3-4 hours of game time.
Level 2 to 3: About 6 hours of game time.
Level 3 to 4: About 8 hours of game time.
At that point I would say about 8 to 12 hours of game time between each level from levels 5-11 and then about 10-14 hours of game time each level between levels 11-20, maybe even a little more when you get to level 18 depending on the story. I think it also depends on how happy the players are with the current gameplay. If it seems like they are still exploring their new talents and having fun with their world you can delay leveling, but if they are really desperate for certain spell levels or class features in order to take on a certain challenge, maybe help them move forward faster.
When a campaign start at level 1, reaching level 2 & 3 is very fast, after which further levels see a rate that start to settle on a slower pace than a few encounters. Rate of advancement follows a milestone leveling that take place when it feels right to me, based on accomplishment and where the party is in term of space and time. They usually level up after completing a major quest, or a serie of minor ones. Or dungeon delving after reaching some room or area. Leveling never happen during combat or travel midday, it usually occur after a rest in a suitable area.
I think one problem with this question on the milestone side is that hours played vs. sessions can really differ depending on the DM.
Here are my thoughts- mind you our sessions run 2-3 hours:
Level 1 to 2: About 3-4 hours of game time.
Level 2 to 3: About 6 hours of game time.
Level 3 to 4: About 8 hours of game time.
At that point I would say about 8 to 12 hours of game time between each level from levels 5-11 and then about 10-14 hours of game time each level between levels 11-20, maybe even a little more when you get to level 18 depending on the story. I think it also depends on how happy the players are with the current gameplay. If it seems like they are still exploring their new talents and having fun with their world you can delay leveling, but if they are really desperate for certain spell levels or class features in order to take on a certain challenge, maybe help them move forward faster.
So party levelled to level 6 in session 55, sessions run 3 hours long on average, so thats 165 hours of game play for levels 1-6, the players have told me they have loved the past year and are really happy at the rate they have levelled.
I find it hard to establish rate of leveling based on hours played, as its very circumstantial. Some sessions get a lot accomplished within the same 4 hours time while others not nearly as much, as more time is spent discussing among them or with other NPCs.
Still a big supporter for XP for a couple of reasons:
1) Player engagement - they can see themselves getting closer to levelling up - and that often increases excitement for a session.
2) Unpredictability - The party goes off the main story for a while to explore that other piece of jungle or another ruin - so what they don't progress? Adding XP for those sessions/side excursion enables a bit more freedom.
3) Versatility. I do build in trigger points that releases XP when certain elements of a story is concluded successfully (ort maybe isn't). So both unplanned adventuring and main storyline will progress characters, with a form of quasi-milestones.
4) My own overview. I can see when characters are approaching levelling up, and can plan on how to work it into sessions. Sure it might happen in the midst of an exploration session, but we house rule a bit around spending some downtime to actually gain new features and spells when you level up (but you do get your hit points/spell slots after the next long rest). You can of course do this with 100% control with milestones - but it feels to much like a railroad for me.
We do probably play a slower and fairly gritty version compared to many tables - 66 session in with character reaching level 9 next session. But the rate of progression has been fairly steady after level 3 (first 2 level ups happened fairly quickly).
I saw some comments on inspiration as well. At the end of each session we do a feedback & inspo round at the (virtual) table. Each player gets an opportunity to provide feedback on the session and nominate another player for inspiration. Typically this results in 2 character getting inspiration - be we generally use inspo to allow a re-roll instead - including re-rolling a bad outcome on hit points when levelling up.
I still use XP - why? My group are all adults with lives outside of DnD so of the 6 players it’s not usual for one or more not to be able to make our n person sessions. By using XP those present in that session gain the EXP they earned and level up as they go just like in real life - the more you do the better you get. I limit when they can level up so it’s not in the middle of a combat but that is about all. I’m occasionally reminded of the end of the movie “the Last Dragon” where the hero and villain are in the final fight and the hero is getting the snot beat out of him. He finally gets a couple of things and effectively levels up in the middle of the fight turning the tables on the villain and winning. Exp let’s you do that potentially and allows for individual development not group only development of characters. So for my game EXP works far better than milestones.
I still use XP - why? My group are all adults with lives outside of DnD so of the 6 players it’s not usual for one or more not to be able to make our n person sessions. By using XP those present in that session gain the EXP they earned and level up as they go just like in real life - the more you do the better you get. I limit when they can level up so it’s not in the middle of a combat but that is about all. I’m occasionally reminded of the end of the movie “the Last Dragon” where the hero and villain are in the final fight and the hero is getting the snot beat out of him. He finally gets a couple of things and effectively levels up in the middle of the fight turning the tables on the villain and winning. Exp let’s you do that potentially and allows for individual development not group only development of characters. So for my game EXP works far better than milestones.
So I chose Milestone because the players have lives and can't always make it, so the party levels at the same time. But I get why you do it your way, different approaches work for cifferent groups. I have a party of 8 players all playing remotely so leveling mid session would just bog things down, 7 players waiting while one figures out new spells, abilities, rolls for hit points etc.
But as long as it works for the party all approaches are good.
I use XP, but I do not track it for the PCs. That's their job, and it's on the honor system. I award XP based on combat, treasure, roleplay, problem solving. etc. The pace suggested in the DMG is working for me in the early levels. If it gets out of whack later, I'll tweak it.
My general rule is that it should take a number of 3-4 hour sessions to reach the next level equal to the current level. So they reach 2nd level after 1 session, 3rd level after 2 more sessions, 4th level after 3 more sessions, etc.
If a DM is doing their job right then as a group you should never sit there thinking, he is dragging his feet on levelling with milestone, they should feel the story is approaching a peak moment and know that will build to a natural levelling point. As the game and story progresses those peaks will get higher and it should be really clear, we have killed a lieutenant, we have the next piece of the puzzle, we got through the dessert on our way to the next city but we have not achieved the thing we are setting out to do.
But I also let my players know the guidlines to which I am levelling them. Levelling should never be a race though, players need time to explore and enjoy the various aspects of their character at that level. I would say as much as I love milestone levelling but if your party is a pretzles and beer type party just into dungeon crawls and not the nuance of round the table roleplay or multi layered storytelling then probably XP is the way to go.
If my players ever said they were unhappy with the amount of XP I gave out because they were so close to leveling, I would tell them to find another DM.
No, really... they need 10,000 XP to level, and they earned 9,600 in this adventure, and they're going to be grumpy about it? As a DM, I didn't "owe" them 10,000 XP. And if their attitude is going to be that I "owe" them enough XP to level, then I do not want to DM for that group of players.
Fortunately my players are NOT that way. But it they were, they wouldn't be my players, because I'd already have stopped DMing.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Never bothered with XP after one dungeon crawl I made for them. I found they leveled at the "wrong" time for the dungeon, in many places trivializing encounters and in a couple, almost TPK because they ended up a bit behind. Constantly juggling encounters to match them was a pain and I scrapped it.
Now, it's milestone, which means they might gain a level each session for 1-2 sessions, then not gain for 3-4 sessions, as they didn't progress as I had anticipated. This allows me to set up a handful of encounters, KNOWING what level they group will be when they run into it. Less reworking, less risk of TPK (aside from just fudging rolls to let them walk through) So far as them knowing when they will level? They never know, as I present a level as a revelation that they realized in that last fight their strikes felt more natural, their spells rolled off with barely a thought and so forth. I find it a lot simpler to manage and the progression makes more sense.
As the OP said, EVERY table has a method that works best for them and to me, that is the most important. The leveling process matching the players/DM preference.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I think one problem with this question on the milestone side is that hours played vs. sessions can really differ depending on the DM.
Here are my thoughts- mind you our sessions run 2-3 hours:
At that point I would say about 8 to 12 hours of game time between each level from levels 5-11 and then about 10-14 hours of game time each level between levels 11-20, maybe even a little more when you get to level 18 depending on the story. I think it also depends on how happy the players are with the current gameplay. If it seems like they are still exploring their new talents and having fun with their world you can delay leveling, but if they are really desperate for certain spell levels or class features in order to take on a certain challenge, maybe help them move forward faster.
When a campaign start at level 1, reaching level 2 & 3 is very fast, after which further levels see a rate that start to settle on a slower pace than a few encounters. Rate of advancement follows a milestone leveling that take place when it feels right to me, based on accomplishment and where the party is in term of space and time. They usually level up after completing a major quest, or a serie of minor ones. Or dungeon delving after reaching some room or area. Leveling never happen during combat or travel midday, it usually occur after a rest in a suitable area.
So party levelled to level 6 in session 55, sessions run 3 hours long on average, so thats 165 hours of game play for levels 1-6, the players have told me they have loved the past year and are really happy at the rate they have levelled.
I find it hard to establish rate of leveling based on hours played, as its very circumstantial. Some sessions get a lot accomplished within the same 4 hours time while others not nearly as much, as more time is spent discussing among them or with other NPCs.
Still a big supporter for XP for a couple of reasons:
1) Player engagement - they can see themselves getting closer to levelling up - and that often increases excitement for a session.
2) Unpredictability - The party goes off the main story for a while to explore that other piece of jungle or another ruin - so what they don't progress? Adding XP for those sessions/side excursion enables a bit more freedom.
3) Versatility. I do build in trigger points that releases XP when certain elements of a story is concluded successfully (ort maybe isn't). So both unplanned adventuring and main storyline will progress characters, with a form of quasi-milestones.
4) My own overview. I can see when characters are approaching levelling up, and can plan on how to work it into sessions. Sure it might happen in the midst of an exploration session, but we house rule a bit around spending some downtime to actually gain new features and spells when you level up (but you do get your hit points/spell slots after the next long rest).
You can of course do this with 100% control with milestones - but it feels to much like a railroad for me.
We do probably play a slower and fairly gritty version compared to many tables - 66 session in with character reaching level 9 next session. But the rate of progression has been fairly steady after level 3 (first 2 level ups happened fairly quickly).
I saw some comments on inspiration as well. At the end of each session we do a feedback & inspo round at the (virtual) table. Each player gets an opportunity to provide feedback on the session and nominate another player for inspiration. Typically this results in 2 character getting inspiration - be we generally use inspo to allow a re-roll instead - including re-rolling a bad outcome on hit points when levelling up.
I still use XP - why? My group are all adults with lives outside of DnD so of the 6 players it’s not usual for one or more not to be able to make our n person sessions. By using XP those present in that session gain the EXP they earned and level up as they go just like in real life - the more you do the better you get. I limit when they can level up so it’s not in the middle of a combat but that is about all. I’m occasionally reminded of the end of the movie “the Last Dragon” where the hero and villain are in the final fight and the hero is getting the snot beat out of him. He finally gets a couple of things and effectively levels up in the middle of the fight turning the tables on the villain and winning. Exp let’s you do that potentially and allows for individual development not group only development of characters. So for my game EXP works far better than milestones.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
So I chose Milestone because the players have lives and can't always make it, so the party levels at the same time. But I get why you do it your way, different approaches work for cifferent groups. I have a party of 8 players all playing remotely so leveling mid session would just bog things down, 7 players waiting while one figures out new spells, abilities, rolls for hit points etc.
But as long as it works for the party all approaches are good.
I use XP, but I do not track it for the PCs. That's their job, and it's on the honor system. I award XP based on combat, treasure, roleplay, problem solving. etc. The pace suggested in the DMG is working for me in the early levels. If it gets out of whack later, I'll tweak it.
My general rule is that it should take a number of 3-4 hour sessions to reach the next level equal to the current level. So they reach 2nd level after 1 session, 3rd level after 2 more sessions, 4th level after 3 more sessions, etc.
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