Like do you trust your players to give you legit stat blocks or do you tend to find people "magically" never roll below a 13, with a 17 and 18 of course. I've been having an issue where one or more of my players "gets lucky" and then i'm forced to try and balance around "Mx God kissed" and the player who's max stat is a 16 and their lowest is a 6. This sadly tends to mean most of my games don't run long, because people get kind of tired when the fighter is the face of the party, and the brains of the party, and of course the party's muscle.
Should i just stick to set stats (IE your stats before racial will be some combo of 17,15,11,11,10, 8) or should i force my players to make there stat rolls in front of me? Accpeting if they get lucky, but making sure it's actual luck and not just "I need to be the anime protagonist, and "luckily" my dice agree".
Finally what are peoples preferred ways to roll up stats? 3d6? 4d6 drop lowest? 4d6 drop lowest, reroll 1's? 1d20? hell i know one person who did 5d4 drop lowest.
I trust my players. Even the one player who’s admitted to having cheated in the past would never have done it for ability scores. But I’m playing with friends: if I was running a pickup game at my LGS, for example, I’d want to see the rolls.
Really, the best way to make sure lucky stat rolls aren’t broken is to make the rest of the game as unpredictable. If you know from level one that everyone’s character will almost certainly survive, then yeah, that guy will outshine everyone else. But if you provide tough challenges, live and die by the dice, and don’t shy away from letting characters die (the hardest thing to do as a DM, but very rewarding) it’s different. Since the character may not be around long-term, nobody reminds them having an edge for a while, and since everyone’s a little worried about failure, it’s good to have a strong ally on your side.
And 4d6 drop lowest is far and away the best method.
Honestly, I can sum up the results so you don't have to wade through it. The thread included a poll: 50% of people prefer rolling randomly no matter how poor the results might be. 39.7% said to use Point Buy, 23.5% liked the Standard Array, and 11.8% chose other, usually talking about different versions of the Standard Array.
The first thing to note is that there is a power cap on ability scores. No matter what a player rolls, or how many ASI they take, no player can get a score over 20 without DM intervention.
The second thing to note is that the difference between a 16 and an 18 is a mere +1. This represents a ~5% greater chance of success in most cases, which matters, but doesn't actually change that much. Players are going to stack the deck for their primary ability through magic items and class features, which will largely wash out the benefit of a slightly higher ability score. For everything else, it's mostly vanity. A Wizard with 14 strength is still going to lose in a grapple match with a Raging Barbarian any day of the week. Proficiency ensures that as long as everyone is in the same ballpark, each player can excel within their specialization.
Third, Advantage/Disadvantage is worth approximately +5 to a roll. A clever player, or a party that works well together, will be substantially stronger than a slightly more powerful loner character. A strong player that also plays well with others is no problem at all.
As for how I like to roll my stats... I like to do whatever everyone else is doing. Point Buy makes life easier, but if everyone can be a good sport about being flawed, then adding a bit of randomness can lead to a much more rich experience. Different group, different game. The most important thing is to be on the same page when telling a story together.
A group that can trust one another should be encouraged to do so.
A group that has trust issues can either set a precedent by rolling in person or on DNDBeyond, or the DM can establish an atmosphere that mitigates later conflict. (E.g. Be clear from Session 0 that the DM will manually correct balance by rewarding and boosting characters that don't get enough time in the spotlight. This might give cheaters FOMO for future treasure.)
While I agree with what has been said I will add this - standard array works well for pure classes even the MAD ones but its not so hot for a mixed MAD multiclass if the player has an great idea, backstory etc I would either go for what they have or let them roll then and there but I might give them the best out of 4 or 5 roll tries. that or tell them 13s across the board and let the racial boosts go to lift the stats where needed.
I think if I were to ever revert back to rolling for stats, I’d do a straight back-to-basic version:
3d6 in order, assigned to each ability. Start all over again if no roll is higher than 9, or two rolls are less than 6.
Then, you choose a class you want to play based on the results.
Then you can adjust any ability down 2 points to add 1 to another ability.
I feel like even then, if you roll two 18s it’s even more unlikely its the exact two scores you might be looking for and so could end up trading an 18 at a 2:1 ratio.
I am not a fan of 4d6 drop 1, but your mileage may vary 🙂
One that i have take a bit of a shining to is standard array, but you are allowed to remove a single point from one stat and add it to another stat. The only limit set, is that your racial can not give you a +3.
It is worth noting that with Tasha's Custom Lineages, it is easy to get a racial 18 in one stat regardless of method by choosing a half-feat that boosts the same Ability chosen for the +2 bonus.
In the games where I have allowed rolled stats, I've made a ritual out of it. Everyone used the same set of dice, everyone rolled in front of everyone else, everyone made the appropriate "oooo" or "oh no" noises of congratulation or comiseration.
Those games, however, have been few. I've used point buy for the last 20 years, because I realised early on that very few players want to roll stats. What they actually want is to roll good stats. If the numbers are bad, it ends up a case of "that character died in training."
I figure, if you are going to keep rolling until you get good numbers, then just use point buy and get the good numbers.
In the games where I have allowed rolled stats, I've made a ritual out of it. Everyone used the same set of dice, everyone rolled in front of everyone else, everyone made the appropriate "oooo" or "oh no" noises of congratulation or comiseration.
Those games, however, have been few. I've used point buy for the last 20 years, because I realised early on that very few players want to roll stats. What they actually want is to roll good stats. If the numbers are bad, it ends up a case of "that character died in training."
I figure, if you are going to keep rolling until you get good numbers, then just use point buy and get the good numbers.
3d6 is old school and I wouldn’t recommend it. As an old school player, I can tell you that could be rough. (Back then we used 3d6 re-roll 1s and that was okay.) When things moved to 4d6 drop lowest I approved. (Re-rolling 1s on top of that seems unnecessary… until I remember one or two characters. 🤔) My advice, never use 1d20, ever. It is not good for stat rolling, too swingy, too inconsistent, and there’s no safety net to make either a low or high score not so bad, trust me, you don’t want anyone rolling a 1 or a 20. 5d4 drop is going to give you a higher minimum, but a lower average and max than 4d6 drop, and it will also make the average even more likely. I have also heard of 3d8 drop lowest, that gives a slightly lower minimum, average, and maximum than 4d6 drop.
These should be your expectations if I got my math right (If not, someone please correct me). I didn’t do all of the re-roll 1s scenarios, someone else might for you though.
Dice
Min
Ave
Max
3d6
3
10.5
18
3d6 re 1s
3
10.5/11
18
4(kh3)d6
3
12.5/13?
18
5(kh4)d4
4
11.5
16
3(kh2)d8
2
12/12.5?
16
1d20
1
N/A
20
I use 4d6 drop lowest and if they roll 💩 they can take Standard Array. I just trust my friends though. For one thing, if I can’t, then why play with them? For another thing, it’s a game. Meh. I can always fix it later with boons, items, or other rewards to make sure everyone stays roughly about on pace with one another. Like, they really can’t get too crazy most of the time. A 14 is +2, an 18 is +4. An entire 4 points higher in the stat, only 2 higher in the actual modifier. 🤷♂️
It’s the low rollers that are the bigger concern because they require more work on my part to help out without it being too obvious. I mean, of course it’s “obvious,” but if it’s ham-handed then it breaks verisimilitude. So finding ways to boost them without it seeming like “I the DM make you better so you can have as much fun as the others.” 🙄 So it can’t be too perfect, just a slight little bit off, or not quite what was expected. Something to make it seem a little more “wheel of fate.”
If you’re worried, have them roll in front of you if it’s in person. Or make them build their characters in your DDB campaign and roll using the built in roller for stats so you can see the log. They can’t cheat if you get to see the rolls.
In the games where I have allowed rolled stats, I've made a ritual out of it. Everyone used the same set of dice, everyone rolled in front of everyone else, everyone made the appropriate "oooo" or "oh no" noises of congratulation or comiseration.
Those games, however, have been few. I've used point buy for the last 20 years, because I realised early on that very few players want to roll stats. What they actually want is to roll good stats. If the numbers are bad, it ends up a case of "that character died in training."
I figure, if you are going to keep rolling until you get good numbers, then just use point buy and get the good numbers.
I had all my players roll a stat until we had 6 who's total equaled 70 or more. This meant they all had good stats but none were stronger than the others. It has felt really good. They are a bit above power but I have a smaller party (3) so it works out okay. Plus rolling is more fun that point buy
You can get similar numbers to 4k3 by rolling multiple characters -- on average, rolling 12 characters will result in your best character being about as good as an average 4k3 character.
Like do you trust your players to give you legit stat blocks or do you tend to find people "magically" never roll below a 13, with a 17 and 18 of course. I've been having an issue where one or more of my players "gets lucky" and then i'm forced to try and balance around "Mx God kissed" and the player who's max stat is a 16 and their lowest is a 6. This sadly tends to mean most of my games don't run long, because people get kind of tired when the fighter is the face of the party, and the brains of the party, and of course the party's muscle.
Should i just stick to set stats (IE your stats before racial will be some combo of 17,15,11,11,10, 8) or should i force my players to make there stat rolls in front of me? Accpeting if they get lucky, but making sure it's actual luck and not just "I need to be the anime protagonist, and "luckily" my dice agree".
Finally what are peoples preferred ways to roll up stats? 3d6? 4d6 drop lowest? 4d6 drop lowest, reroll 1's? 1d20? hell i know one person who did 5d4 drop lowest.
I completely trust the group that I currently run for to provide legitimate stat blocks. Also, they volunteer to either roll together as a group, or use the stat roller in DNDBeyond, as it serves as a record of the dice rolls. They even go so far as to roll hit points in front of each other without complaint. Everyone is willing to be transparent with their rolls and is also willing to be fair with other players. Importantly, they don't want to project the impression of being untrustworthy. I'm sure that YMMV. Also sorry to hear that you have someone trying to win D&D. Might be a cause for a one-on-one chat regarding a social contract issue or two. If it's the same person time and again you may find yourself having to ask them to leave for the betterment of the group. No D&D is better than bad D&D.
"Should", to me, is a mostly subjective standpoint. If you want to have an easy time of encounter balance (which is probably another post all on its own) and making sure that no one player is hamstrung, or another turned into a juggernaut then you could use a set group of stats or point buy. If you have to force your players to roll in front of you, I might suggest finding a different group, or at least having a talk about why there is a hesitancy for being transparent.
If you're concerned about party balance, my advice is don't. (just my opinion here, not trying to tell you how you need to do anything) To me keeping the party within a powerband isn't necessary for them to have fun and enjoy the game. The unbalanced nature of the group can lead to tension and challenge that would otherwise become the same boring old cakewalk. I don't require my players to have a tank, crowd control, striker and healer. I encourage them to play what they want. I also create challenges and obstacles, not solutions. Solutions are their job. I get to sit back and listen to what the BBEG might be doing next when they start to theorize why this trap is in front of them or this particular enemy is doing a thing. I let them build the story, and the dice decide if the PCs come out on top.
Our group uses 4d6dl, re-roll any stat below 8. Most common stat is a 12, only 2 characters rolled an 18. I did have one group that we wanted to try a superhero theme that used 4d4+4. Kinda hard to lean into a power curve with that one, very swingy in combat.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
When you roll stats there is NO way to prevent some character from being "too good" while others are "far from good enough". This is excluding the possibility of cheating. If you roll dice often enough (i.e. enough games) then you will see some absurdly high scores rolled naturally. I had a 1e character that actually rolled 18/00 for strength AND had 18 in two other stats (this was using 6 x 4d6 drop lowest, arranged in whatever order) and was rolled with everyone else at character creation.
However, for every really great set of stats there are ones that are equally bad - the character that rolls 3 scores less than 6. Or even a character whose highest score is 12. It may be playable in 5e due to bounded accuracy but the player is not likely to really enjoy it.
Finally, for rolled stats, always roll them together. If you want to keep in fair to everyone and have no player feel penalized then have each player roll one or two sets of stats, put them all together and then allow each player to choose any of the sets for their character ... even duplicating. Their choices of race and class will usually result in quite different characters but at least the starting point for each player will be a level playing field.
However, for all the reasons cited above, I started using point buy for 5e characters since I find it just works better.
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Like do you trust your players to give you legit stat blocks or do you tend to find people "magically" never roll below a 13, with a 17 and 18 of course. I've been having an issue where one or more of my players "gets lucky" and then i'm forced to try and balance around "Mx God kissed" and the player who's max stat is a 16 and their lowest is a 6. This sadly tends to mean most of my games don't run long, because people get kind of tired when the fighter is the face of the party, and the brains of the party, and of course the party's muscle.
Should i just stick to set stats (IE your stats before racial will be some combo of 17,15,11,11,10, 8) or should i force my players to make there stat rolls in front of me? Accpeting if they get lucky, but making sure it's actual luck and not just "I need to be the anime protagonist, and "luckily" my dice agree".
Finally what are peoples preferred ways to roll up stats? 3d6? 4d6 drop lowest? 4d6 drop lowest, reroll 1's? 1d20? hell i know one person who did 5d4 drop lowest.
I trust my players. Even the one player who’s admitted to having cheated in the past would never have done it for ability scores. But I’m playing with friends: if I was running a pickup game at my LGS, for example, I’d want to see the rolls.
Really, the best way to make sure lucky stat rolls aren’t broken is to make the rest of the game as unpredictable. If you know from level one that everyone’s character will almost certainly survive, then yeah, that guy will outshine everyone else. But if you provide tough challenges, live and die by the dice, and don’t shy away from letting characters die (the hardest thing to do as a DM, but very rewarding) it’s different. Since the character may not be around long-term, nobody reminds them having an edge for a while, and since everyone’s a little worried about failure, it’s good to have a strong ally on your side.
And 4d6 drop lowest is far and away the best method.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
If you aren't confident in your players, just go standard array / point buy.
I created a thread on this : Here
Honestly, I can sum up the results so you don't have to wade through it. The thread included a poll: 50% of people prefer rolling randomly no matter how poor the results might be. 39.7% said to use Point Buy, 23.5% liked the Standard Array, and 11.8% chose other, usually talking about different versions of the Standard Array.
<Insert clever signature here>
The first thing to note is that there is a power cap on ability scores. No matter what a player rolls, or how many ASI they take, no player can get a score over 20 without DM intervention.
The second thing to note is that the difference between a 16 and an 18 is a mere +1. This represents a ~5% greater chance of success in most cases, which matters, but doesn't actually change that much. Players are going to stack the deck for their primary ability through magic items and class features, which will largely wash out the benefit of a slightly higher ability score. For everything else, it's mostly vanity. A Wizard with 14 strength is still going to lose in a grapple match with a Raging Barbarian any day of the week. Proficiency ensures that as long as everyone is in the same ballpark, each player can excel within their specialization.
Third, Advantage/Disadvantage is worth approximately +5 to a roll. A clever player, or a party that works well together, will be substantially stronger than a slightly more powerful loner character. A strong player that also plays well with others is no problem at all.
As for how I like to roll my stats... I like to do whatever everyone else is doing. Point Buy makes life easier, but if everyone can be a good sport about being flawed, then adding a bit of randomness can lead to a much more rich experience. Different group, different game. The most important thing is to be on the same page when telling a story together.
A group that can trust one another should be encouraged to do so.
A group that has trust issues can either set a precedent by rolling in person or on DNDBeyond, or the DM can establish an atmosphere that mitigates later conflict. (E.g. Be clear from Session 0 that the DM will manually correct balance by rewarding and boosting characters that don't get enough time in the spotlight. This might give cheaters FOMO for future treasure.)
While I agree with what has been said I will add this - standard array works well for pure classes even the MAD ones but its not so hot for a mixed MAD multiclass if the player has an great idea, backstory etc I would either go for what they have or let them roll then and there but I might give them the best out of 4 or 5 roll tries. that or tell them 13s across the board and let the racial boosts go to lift the stats where needed.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think if I were to ever revert back to rolling for stats, I’d do a straight back-to-basic version:
3d6 in order, assigned to each ability. Start all over again if no roll is higher than 9, or two rolls are less than 6.
Then, you choose a class you want to play based on the results.
Then you can adjust any ability down 2 points to add 1 to another ability.
I feel like even then, if you roll two 18s it’s even more unlikely its the exact two scores you might be looking for and so could end up trading an 18 at a 2:1 ratio.
I am not a fan of 4d6 drop 1, but your mileage may vary 🙂
One that i have take a bit of a shining to is standard array, but you are allowed to remove a single point from one stat and add it to another stat. The only limit set, is that your racial can not give you a +3.
It is worth noting that with Tasha's Custom Lineages, it is easy to get a racial 18 in one stat regardless of method by choosing a half-feat that boosts the same Ability chosen for the +2 bonus.
In the games where I have allowed rolled stats, I've made a ritual out of it. Everyone used the same set of dice, everyone rolled in front of everyone else, everyone made the appropriate "oooo" or "oh no" noises of congratulation or comiseration.
Those games, however, have been few. I've used point buy for the last 20 years, because I realised early on that very few players want to roll stats. What they actually want is to roll good stats. If the numbers are bad, it ends up a case of "that character died in training."
I figure, if you are going to keep rolling until you get good numbers, then just use point buy and get the good numbers.
This. 100%.
3d6 is old school and I wouldn’t recommend it. As an old school player, I can tell you that could be rough. (Back then we used 3d6 re-roll 1s and that was okay.) When things moved to 4d6 drop lowest I approved. (Re-rolling 1s on top of that seems unnecessary… until I remember one or two characters. 🤔) My advice, never use 1d20, ever. It is not good for stat rolling, too swingy, too inconsistent, and there’s no safety net to make either a low or high score not so bad, trust me, you don’t want anyone rolling a 1 or a 20. 5d4 drop is going to give you a higher minimum, but a lower average and max than 4d6 drop, and it will also make the average even more likely. I have also heard of 3d8 drop lowest, that gives a slightly lower minimum, average, and maximum than 4d6 drop.
These should be your expectations if I got my math right (If not, someone please correct me). I didn’t do all of the re-roll 1s scenarios, someone else might for you though.
I use 4d6 drop lowest and if they roll 💩 they can take Standard Array. I just trust my friends though. For one thing, if I can’t, then why play with them? For another thing, it’s a game. Meh. I can always fix it later with boons, items, or other rewards to make sure everyone stays roughly about on pace with one another. Like, they really can’t get too crazy most of the time. A 14 is +2, an 18 is +4. An entire 4 points higher in the stat, only 2 higher in the actual modifier. 🤷♂️
It’s the low rollers that are the bigger concern because they require more work on my part to help out without it being too obvious. I mean, of course it’s “obvious,” but if it’s ham-handed then it breaks verisimilitude. So finding ways to boost them without it seeming like “I the DM make you better so you can have as much fun as the others.” 🙄 So it can’t be too perfect, just a slight little bit off, or not quite what was expected. Something to make it seem a little more “wheel of fate.”
If you’re worried, have them roll in front of you if it’s in person. Or make them build their characters in your DDB campaign and roll using the built in roller for stats so you can see the log. They can’t cheat if you get to see the rolls.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Yeah. This!
I had all my players roll a stat until we had 6 who's total equaled 70 or more. This meant they all had good stats but none were stronger than the others. It has felt really good. They are a bit above power but I have a smaller party (3) so it works out okay. Plus rolling is more fun that point buy
Make everybody roll 3d6 in order - we had the most fun with the City Guard using this method - a good diversion from the main campaign :)
You can get similar numbers to 4k3 by rolling multiple characters -- on average, rolling 12 characters will result in your best character being about as good as an average 4k3 character.
Excellently said. Luckily I have a group that can handle true rolled stats, but if you don’t want the chance of bad stats, just do point buy.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
If you trust your players, let them roll.
If you don't trust your players, give them the standard array, use point buy, or have them roll in the room with you.
That simple.
I completely trust the group that I currently run for to provide legitimate stat blocks. Also, they volunteer to either roll together as a group, or use the stat roller in DNDBeyond, as it serves as a record of the dice rolls. They even go so far as to roll hit points in front of each other without complaint. Everyone is willing to be transparent with their rolls and is also willing to be fair with other players. Importantly, they don't want to project the impression of being untrustworthy. I'm sure that YMMV. Also sorry to hear that you have someone trying to win D&D. Might be a cause for a one-on-one chat regarding a social contract issue or two. If it's the same person time and again you may find yourself having to ask them to leave for the betterment of the group. No D&D is better than bad D&D.
"Should", to me, is a mostly subjective standpoint. If you want to have an easy time of encounter balance (which is probably another post all on its own) and making sure that no one player is hamstrung, or another turned into a juggernaut then you could use a set group of stats or point buy. If you have to force your players to roll in front of you, I might suggest finding a different group, or at least having a talk about why there is a hesitancy for being transparent.
If you're concerned about party balance, my advice is don't. (just my opinion here, not trying to tell you how you need to do anything) To me keeping the party within a powerband isn't necessary for them to have fun and enjoy the game. The unbalanced nature of the group can lead to tension and challenge that would otherwise become the same boring old cakewalk. I don't require my players to have a tank, crowd control, striker and healer. I encourage them to play what they want. I also create challenges and obstacles, not solutions. Solutions are their job. I get to sit back and listen to what the BBEG might be doing next when they start to theorize why this trap is in front of them or this particular enemy is doing a thing. I let them build the story, and the dice decide if the PCs come out on top.
Our group uses 4d6dl, re-roll any stat below 8. Most common stat is a 12, only 2 characters rolled an 18. I did have one group that we wanted to try a superhero theme that used 4d4+4. Kinda hard to lean into a power curve with that one, very swingy in combat.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
When you roll stats there is NO way to prevent some character from being "too good" while others are "far from good enough". This is excluding the possibility of cheating. If you roll dice often enough (i.e. enough games) then you will see some absurdly high scores rolled naturally. I had a 1e character that actually rolled 18/00 for strength AND had 18 in two other stats (this was using 6 x 4d6 drop lowest, arranged in whatever order) and was rolled with everyone else at character creation.
However, for every really great set of stats there are ones that are equally bad - the character that rolls 3 scores less than 6. Or even a character whose highest score is 12. It may be playable in 5e due to bounded accuracy but the player is not likely to really enjoy it.
Finally, for rolled stats, always roll them together. If you want to keep in fair to everyone and have no player feel penalized then have each player roll one or two sets of stats, put them all together and then allow each player to choose any of the sets for their character ... even duplicating. Their choices of race and class will usually result in quite different characters but at least the starting point for each player will be a level playing field.
However, for all the reasons cited above, I started using point buy for 5e characters since I find it just works better.