I think what's at issue here is the DM feeling "defeated" by the wild shape tactic. Wildshape isn't a trump card. It's a tactic. It's on the DM to adapt to the players tactic and rather than just throw in the towel entertain the players by having the ant/druid "earn" the win. Speed and timing is a factor. It could also be fun to deal with ants' well documented xenophobia to other ants (if ants are an overlooked sort of organism, it could be because there are ants who will not like this ant so it could lead to just one long corridor fight of mandible-a-mandible combat until the hour passes - ants got stamina). The aforementioned blindmans bluff of the ant's nature could come into play. Does the druid have a map in their head or will they have to tactile, smell there way somehow).
When how does the transformation take place? Does the Druid simply do it in front of the target structure? No one sees this? In Waterdeep? Or do they do it somewhere in another building and another PC has to assist the ant in its infiltration. And no one sees this? (This way you're getting the rest of the party involved so they're not simply spectating the Druidheist).
DM knows there's a Druid in the party, wild shape isn't an exotic tactic. If the DM is at a loss of how to make victory via wild shape something earned rather than simply the trump card they seem to be confronted with, read the Sword and the Stone. This is not a "ok, you get it." It's most definitely a "you can certainly try" moment.
Party contingency plans, if the Druid's not back in an hour, what does the party do? If you're running a heist game, it's on the DM to develop kinks (actual narrative term of art for heist complications) that challenge the PCs' cleverness, not to "beat" them but to challenge them so that the win is earned.
Discounting or excluding a fundamental character feature because the DM got caught flat footed by it just ain't cool. Especially when you got per RAW an hour in game time to create complications against the Druid and the rest of the party.
I would say selecting an insect may be poor choice for the Druid given the limitations of an ant. Small mammal or reptile would have been more mobile and spatially aware, but it comes at a higher risk of being noticed. I'd actually have a "are you sure?" moment where you poke holes into the ant's mobility and sensory capacities perhaps prompting the player to reconsider.
Tangent: what about a flea, or would the leap capacity be deemed a form of flight perhaps not available to this Druid?
Vermin control spells, while not mentioned in D&D because dealing with flea infestations isn't terribly adventurous, probably exist.
I'm not sure that's necessarily true, since there are known spells to handle the problems "vermin" can cause (disease and such), plus a bunch of druids who might frown upon something like a cloudkill variant (Orkin's Cloudkill?) that targets only rats or whatever.
Sure it's an 8th level, but it would work. (And the line about "intelligent" doesn't mean of a specific score - anything with Int of 1 or more is fine. The distinction is so it doesn't affect beings that have function but no int, like unseen servants, some constructs, etc. Plus ants are actually rather intelligent compared to most bugs, and rats and mice can solve basic puzzles. Pretty sure they qualify.
So, there kinda is a precedent for this.
Is that SAC? I thought "Intelligent creature" referred to the dividing line between "beasts" (i.e. INT 3 or less, as per animal friendship and such) and anything smarter
Didn't bother looking and if you're getting hung up on that you're missing the point.
Also the "dividing line" isn't one in rules. It's some common verbiage in some spells but not a rule.
If "intelligent creature" only refers to creatures with an Intelligence score, which is every creature, than the first word serves no purpose at all. I'm assuming it's there for a reason.
As for missing the point, if you need to mischaracterize an eighth-level spell to illustrate it, I suppose I am. Meanwhile I'm over here wondering if "vermin" would even be considered a problem that needed magic to solve in a world where they don't have a habit of causing devastating plagues.
The fact that new spells are constantly being “discovered” in DnD and added to new source books and the fact that the designers and writers encourage DMs to make there own spells demonstrates that the magic in the players handbook is simply a sample of the magic available in the world. In my campaigns there are spells for all sorts of mundane things, and there are higher level spells, spells that go beyond level 9 that players will never have access to.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I rule that if the druid player wants to participate in the action then they be to be a slightly bigger creature, and that means chances of detection.
If they change into something tiny and unnoticeable (like an ant of a beetle) then they are effectively out of the action. No-one's going to notice them or attack them (except accidentally with AoE effects, of course) but they can't take part either. An ant is too slow and too blind to be effective in human-scale scenes.
I rule that if the druid player wants to participate in the action then they be to be a slightly bigger creature, and that means chances of detection.
If they change into something tiny and unnoticeable (like an ant of a beetle) then they are effectively out of the action. No-one's going to notice them or attack them (except accidentally with AoE effects, of course) but they can't take part either. An ant is too slow and too blind to be effective in human-scale scenes.
But a flea? I'm half joking but also curious how folks would rule on a flea.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
So I’m doing Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, there is a segment where the players are suppose to enter Gralhund Villa, and with the remix, go on a chase to get the stone of Galorr.
My player, a circle of moon Druid, turned into an ant, passed all stealth, and entered the villa, without the first check.
How do I combat this? It doesn’t make sense to do perception checks on the NPC’s, because it’s an ant, she turned into a human, took what she needed, and turned back to an ant and made it out.
I’m not seeing the problem.
Its like complaining the party wizard cast a fireball and killed all the orcs or something.
If wildshaping utility animals is bothering you, don't forget, that in general a druid can only turn into an animal that they've actually seen before.
There's also the danger of animal kingdom. Maybe there could have been a nest of wasps, a hunting spider, other ants, certain caterpillars etc. There are a lots of natural enemies of ants and while they could very easily be handled by a person (disclaimer: please do not battle a nest of wasp or a tribe of red bull ants, that's plain stupid for a grown human), they pose a fearsome threat while in antform and might force the player to turn back earlier then intended. -> Druid is also limited how often they can wildshape per day.
You turn into a beast. Not an insect. So have the druid turn into something from 5E sourcebook with maybe a reskin. I think Tiny is the smallest size of beast
You turn into a beast. Not an insect. So have the druid turn into something from 5E sourcebook with maybe a reskin. I think Tiny is the smallest size of beast
A CR 0 Tiny Spider is a beast. Swarm of Insects is a beast. I think insects would be beasts, they just didn't make a stat block for them because they wouldn't be interesting to fight and not many people would choose them as a familiar.
Worthy of note: Moon Druids can't turn into CR 0 beasts, because Combat Wildshape increases the CR of all their forms to CR 1 at minimum. It's a pity the OP never came back. It would be fun to tell them that the only kind of CR 1 Beasts that are Insects are Spiders, all of which are Large. I'm sure that someone could whomp up the stats for a Large sized Ant, or they could base the stats on the Giant Centipede or the Giant Fire Beetle, both of which are Small creatures.
I'm sure an Insect the size of a Halfling wouldn't attract any undue attention and would be able to sneak around freely.
A CR 0 Tiny Spider is a beast. Swarm of Insects is a beast.
A CR 0 Tiny Spider can kill a commoner in one bite (if they fail the save), a spider 12' across would be 'tiny' in 5e terms. The lower limit of 'has a creature writeup' is probably several inches (e.g. Insect Plague does not summon creatures) though there are no official rules like that.
Moon druids increase their maximum CR, not their minimum. Can still turn into a CR 0 form.
A CR 0 Tiny Spider is a beast. Swarm of Insects is a beast.
A CR 0 Tiny Spider can kill a commoner in one bite (if they fail the save), a spider 12' across would be 'tiny' in 5e terms. The lower limit of 'has a creature writeup' is probably several inches (e.g. Insect Plague does not summon creatures) though there are no official rules like that.
Moon druids increase their maximum CR, not their minimum. Can still turn into a CR 0 form.
Yes, Spider is probably a large poisonous spider like a huntsman. But I see no rule that says there's a lower limit on Tiny creatures or that insects aren't beasts. We might have to draw the limit at becoming a virus and entering an enemy's nostrils and replicating to infect them.
Then again, maybe with an appropriate CR for the disease. Common cold is CR 0. COVID maybe CR 1/4.
You turn into a beast. Not an insect. So have the druid turn into something from 5E sourcebook with maybe a reskin. I think Tiny is the smallest size of beast
I think you might confuse editions. In earleir versions insects would be classified as Vermin instead of Beast, but this type doesn't exist anymore and all of the vermin are classified as beasts in 5E.
Worthy of note: Moon Druids can't turn into CR 0 beasts, because Combat Wildshape increases the CR of all their forms to CR 1 at minimum. It's a pity the OP never came back. It would be fun to tell them that the only kind of CR 1 Beasts that are Insects are Spiders, all of which are Large. I'm sure that someone could whomp up the stats for a Large sized Ant, or they could base the stats on the Giant Centipede or the Giant Fire Beetle, both of which are Small creatures.
I'm sure an Insect the size of a Halfling wouldn't attract any undue attention and would be able to sneak around freely.
Sorry to correct you but the Moon Druid can still transform into a CR 0 beast. Circle Form allows you to "[...] tranform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1." It just allows stronger beasts compared to other druids.
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I think what's at issue here is the DM feeling "defeated" by the wild shape tactic. Wildshape isn't a trump card. It's a tactic. It's on the DM to adapt to the players tactic and rather than just throw in the towel entertain the players by having the ant/druid "earn" the win. Speed and timing is a factor. It could also be fun to deal with ants' well documented xenophobia to other ants (if ants are an overlooked sort of organism, it could be because there are ants who will not like this ant so it could lead to just one long corridor fight of mandible-a-mandible combat until the hour passes - ants got stamina). The aforementioned blindmans bluff of the ant's nature could come into play. Does the druid have a map in their head or will they have to tactile, smell there way somehow).
When how does the transformation take place? Does the Druid simply do it in front of the target structure? No one sees this? In Waterdeep? Or do they do it somewhere in another building and another PC has to assist the ant in its infiltration. And no one sees this? (This way you're getting the rest of the party involved so they're not simply spectating the Druidheist).
DM knows there's a Druid in the party, wild shape isn't an exotic tactic. If the DM is at a loss of how to make victory via wild shape something earned rather than simply the trump card they seem to be confronted with, read the Sword and the Stone. This is not a "ok, you get it." It's most definitely a "you can certainly try" moment.
Party contingency plans, if the Druid's not back in an hour, what does the party do? If you're running a heist game, it's on the DM to develop kinks (actual narrative term of art for heist complications) that challenge the PCs' cleverness, not to "beat" them but to challenge them so that the win is earned.
Discounting or excluding a fundamental character feature because the DM got caught flat footed by it just ain't cool. Especially when you got per RAW an hour in game time to create complications against the Druid and the rest of the party.
I would say selecting an insect may be poor choice for the Druid given the limitations of an ant. Small mammal or reptile would have been more mobile and spatially aware, but it comes at a higher risk of being noticed. I'd actually have a "are you sure?" moment where you poke holes into the ant's mobility and sensory capacities perhaps prompting the player to reconsider.
Tangent: what about a flea, or would the leap capacity be deemed a form of flight perhaps not available to this Druid?
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The fact that new spells are constantly being “discovered” in DnD and added to new source books and the fact that the designers and writers encourage DMs to make there own spells demonstrates that the magic in the players handbook is simply a sample of the magic available in the world. In my campaigns there are spells for all sorts of mundane things, and there are higher level spells, spells that go beyond level 9 that players will never have access to.
Oh good, somebody got my point. Yay!
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I rule that if the druid player wants to participate in the action then they be to be a slightly bigger creature, and that means chances of detection.
If they change into something tiny and unnoticeable (like an ant of a beetle) then they are effectively out of the action. No-one's going to notice them or attack them (except accidentally with AoE effects, of course) but they can't take part either. An ant is too slow and too blind to be effective in human-scale scenes.
But a flea? I'm half joking but also curious how folks would rule on a flea.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’m not seeing the problem.
Its like complaining the party wizard cast a fireball and killed all the orcs or something.
I think it's a valid strategy from the player.
If wildshaping utility animals is bothering you, don't forget, that in general a druid can only turn into an animal that they've actually seen before.
There's also the danger of animal kingdom. Maybe there could have been a nest of wasps, a hunting spider, other ants, certain caterpillars etc. There are a lots of natural enemies of ants and while they could very easily be handled by a person (disclaimer: please do not battle a nest of wasp or a tribe of red bull ants, that's plain stupid for a grown human), they pose a fearsome threat while in antform and might force the player to turn back earlier then intended. -> Druid is also limited how often they can wildshape per day.
You turn into a beast. Not an insect. So have the druid turn into something from 5E sourcebook with maybe a reskin. I think Tiny is the smallest size of beast
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
A CR 0 Tiny Spider is a beast. Swarm of Insects is a beast. I think insects would be beasts, they just didn't make a stat block for them because they wouldn't be interesting to fight and not many people would choose them as a familiar.
Worthy of note: Moon Druids can't turn into CR 0 beasts, because Combat Wildshape increases the CR of all their forms to CR 1 at minimum. It's a pity the OP never came back. It would be fun to tell them that the only kind of CR 1 Beasts that are Insects are Spiders, all of which are Large. I'm sure that someone could whomp up the stats for a Large sized Ant, or they could base the stats on the Giant Centipede or the Giant Fire Beetle, both of which are Small creatures.
I'm sure an Insect the size of a Halfling wouldn't attract any undue attention and would be able to sneak around freely.
<Insert clever signature here>
A CR 0 Tiny Spider can kill a commoner in one bite (if they fail the save), a spider 12' across would be 'tiny' in 5e terms. The lower limit of 'has a creature writeup' is probably several inches (e.g. Insect Plague does not summon creatures) though there are no official rules like that.
Moon druids increase their maximum CR, not their minimum. Can still turn into a CR 0 form.
Yes, Spider is probably a large poisonous spider like a huntsman. But I see no rule that says there's a lower limit on Tiny creatures or that insects aren't beasts. We might have to draw the limit at becoming a virus and entering an enemy's nostrils and replicating to infect them.
Then again, maybe with an appropriate CR for the disease. Common cold is CR 0. COVID maybe CR 1/4.
I think you might confuse editions. In earleir versions insects would be classified as Vermin instead of Beast, but this type doesn't exist anymore and all of the vermin are classified as beasts in 5E.
Sorry to correct you but the Moon Druid can still transform into a CR 0 beast. Circle Form allows you to "[...] tranform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1." It just allows stronger beasts compared to other druids.