Okay. So I need a bit of reassurance/clarity - report cards are reaaaaallly making my brain foggy! So, a PC decides they want to try to shove a monster prone. SInce this is a type of attack, I call for initiative. Is the PC still on the hook for that action, i.e. shove? Or, depending on what initiative order the fall into, can they change their intended action to whatever they like? My gut tells me that once the initiative falls where it falls, everyone is free to act out their actions as they see fit.
I guess the confusing part is the precipitating event/intention, which is the shove. If they never wanted to try to shove, there never would have been initiative.
The following may not be RAW but it is how I tend to run things. In most cases, I run it so that creatures are only aware of events that have actually happened. There are a number of ways for a DM to interpret it though ..
1) If the person shoving loses initiative then they somehow telegraphed that they were intending to make an attack of some sort and the creature being attacked gets to react first.
However, in many situations, I don't find that convincing or satisfying as a DM or player - I usually think that the combat should start with the initiating action unless there is some reason for the others in the initiative order to be able to tell that an attack will be forthcoming - so I tend to do the following.
2) The initiative order advances down to the initiative rolled by the character who takes the action to start the encounter and then proceeds normally from there.
So if I have the party quietly waiting to open a door - the initiative will start with that rolled by the character opening the door. (unless one of the creatures inside the room succeeded on a perception check and became aware of the party outside the door in which case I would start initiative at the top).
In the same way, if a character is going to shove to initiate combat then I would start the initiative with them most of the time.
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However, to address your question, if initiative starts at the top and the character who was going to shove does not go first then the other creatures can react to some sort of aggressive motion from the character but the character hasn't done anything yet and when their turn in the initiative order comes around they are under no obligation to carry through with the intended shove attack because the circumstances have changed.
I'd say if the target of the initiative beats the PC intending to shove, that's called getting the drop on your assailant.
I use the OK Corral gunfight in the movie Tombstone to illustrate what getting initiative against an attack looks like (it's also great for illustrating suppressive firing which some gun games have as well as some rule of cool stuff like Holiday's blast in the air to clear one of the Cowboy's horse cover which I've yet to see in a gun based game's mechanic). Val Kilmer/Doc Holiday's wink at Thomas Haden Church/Billy Clanton isn't where initiative is rolled. Clayton goes for his gun (declaring to the GM he's attacking) but the "oh my god" moment shows a group of more experienced (and a lot more sober) gun fighters (who if statted would likely have superior initiative modifiers) reacting to Clayton's attack by seizing the initiative, and basically dominating the scene (there's some variant 5e stuff where things like position of dominance matter, basically give them advantage for flanking except for the wild card who ducks into the photography. studio, but by then the gunfights over and he's seriously outgunned).
not wanting to add to any report card fuzzyies but doesn't surprize figure in this somehow?
If the shove to prone initiating combat surprised the shovie even if their initiative was higher they wouldn't be able to act till the next round so the shover would get his shove to prone in.
Personally in the case of surprize I'd say you can't change your shove now to say setting up a heavy ballista and shooting the guy in the back...
in the case of no surprise then things are free flowing and I'd be open to letting the shover change their attack
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“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
The way I'd describe this, if the PC did not get surprise and lost initiative, would be something like "You move towards [X], intending to shove it, but it notices you coming and tries to bite your head off. What do you do?"
If the PC caught the monster unaware then they should have surprised that monster, meaning the Monster could not move or take any Actions on its first turn, and cannot take a Reaction during the first round until after their turn of doing nothing (because they were surprised). So even if the monster does beat out the PC on Initiative, that PC would still have gotten the drop on it and been able to take the Attack action to attempt the Shove.
If the monster was not surprised, and the PC beats it out on Initiative, then the PC would act normally, but then the monster would just stand right back up again on their turn. That is unless that PC has Extra Attack and could then use their other attack to Grapple the monster, effectively pinning it down.
If the monster was not surprised and beats out the PC on Initiative, then the PC would be able to take any actions the player wants on its turn since that’s how Initiative works.
Yeah I would let the players resolve the shove and then go with initiative order, my logic being the shove is what began initiative. It's a bit of a reward for the player choosing to strike first, BUT it works the other way around and, in another encounter, an enemy might decide diplomacy has gone far enough and gain the same benefit.
I think a lot depends on whether the NPC is aware of the threat. If there is a tense stand-off between the party and the NPCs who are clearly hostile to each other even if it hasn't actually come to blows yet then the NPCs are eying him and see the PC start to move aggressively and make their own attacks first (if they win initiative), in this case the situation has changed before the player's turn comes round so they are not compelled to do the declared action (they might not even be able to if for example an enemy caster cast hold person on them).
If there evidence of a threat then the NPC is surprised, you need to consider whether the rest of the party is surprised, if before the meeting they had agreed if any of them thought negotiation was likely to fail then they would attack I would rule the rest of the party are not surprised, if such circumstances it is possible another party member sees the attacking intent from the "declarer" and is able to get his attack in first (again the declarer would not have to shove as the situation has changed).
If there was no such discussion and the rest of the party are as surprised as the NPCs at the attack then I would rule everyone except the person who said they would shove the NPC are surprised (including the rest of the party).
Yeah I would let the players resolve the shove and then go with initiative order, my logic being the shove is what began initiative. It's a bit of a reward for the player choosing to strike first, BUT it works the other way around and, in another encounter, an enemy might decide diplomacy has gone far enough and gain the same benefit.
The game has an initiative system precisely because outside of surprise actions, one does not simply choose to strike first in D&D. You may want to do something, but at the end of the day some monsters and PCs are just faster on the draw. And your reversal is precisely why it's more prudent to adhere to the rules than imagine some special rules for deciding to shove someone.
Shove uses the attack action, as discussed in the rules chapter on combat, so why shouldn't it be governed by the rules of combat? Now sneaking and shoving via surprise is one thing, or articulating going for a a sucker punch style of attack is possible, but it's not granted, there need to be some sort of mechanic securing surprise, otherwise it's an action in combat, so whether they get to do that is entirely dependent on initiative resolution.
Take the opposite task, characters feel they're about to be arrested or attacked by a group they're parlaying with and decide to run away. Do you just let them run or do they roll for initiative to see if they can get dashes going before their opposition attacks.
Shoving isn't some "out there" concept beyond the rules. It's governed by combat and is subject to how combat is resolved, starting with initiative.
The precipitating event is the start of the move towards shoving someone. They might jump out of the way before you can fully establish your shove, or they might draw a weapon and stab you as you move forwards whilst raising your hands towards their chest.
The precipitating event is the start of the move towards shoving someone. They might jump out of the way before you can fully establish your shove, or they might draw a weapon and stab you as you move forwards whilst raising your hands towards their chest.
I always love the idea that a player says "I stab that creature", at which point the DM goes, "well let's just see what they think about you lunging forwards. Roll initiative."
Hi all,
Okay. So I need a bit of reassurance/clarity - report cards are reaaaaallly making my brain foggy!
So, a PC decides they want to try to shove a monster prone. SInce this is a type of attack, I call for initiative.
Is the PC still on the hook for that action, i.e. shove?
Or, depending on what initiative order the fall into, can they change their intended action to whatever they like?
My gut tells me that once the initiative falls where it falls, everyone is free to act out their actions as they see fit.
I guess the confusing part is the precipitating event/intention, which is the shove. If they never wanted to try to shove, there never would have been initiative.
Thanks in advance!
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
The following may not be RAW but it is how I tend to run things. In most cases, I run it so that creatures are only aware of events that have actually happened. There are a number of ways for a DM to interpret it though ..
1) If the person shoving loses initiative then they somehow telegraphed that they were intending to make an attack of some sort and the creature being attacked gets to react first.
However, in many situations, I don't find that convincing or satisfying as a DM or player - I usually think that the combat should start with the initiating action unless there is some reason for the others in the initiative order to be able to tell that an attack will be forthcoming - so I tend to do the following.
2) The initiative order advances down to the initiative rolled by the character who takes the action to start the encounter and then proceeds normally from there.
So if I have the party quietly waiting to open a door - the initiative will start with that rolled by the character opening the door. (unless one of the creatures inside the room succeeded on a perception check and became aware of the party outside the door in which case I would start initiative at the top).
In the same way, if a character is going to shove to initiate combat then I would start the initiative with them most of the time.
---
However, to address your question, if initiative starts at the top and the character who was going to shove does not go first then the other creatures can react to some sort of aggressive motion from the character but the character hasn't done anything yet and when their turn in the initiative order comes around they are under no obligation to carry through with the intended shove attack because the circumstances have changed.
I'd say if the target of the initiative beats the PC intending to shove, that's called getting the drop on your assailant.
I use the OK Corral gunfight in the movie Tombstone to illustrate what getting initiative against an attack looks like (it's also great for illustrating suppressive firing which some gun games have as well as some rule of cool stuff like Holiday's blast in the air to clear one of the Cowboy's horse cover which I've yet to see in a gun based game's mechanic). Val Kilmer/Doc Holiday's wink at Thomas Haden Church/Billy Clanton isn't where initiative is rolled. Clayton goes for his gun (declaring to the GM he's attacking) but the "oh my god" moment shows a group of more experienced (and a lot more sober) gun fighters (who if statted would likely have superior initiative modifiers) reacting to Clayton's attack by seizing the initiative, and basically dominating the scene (there's some variant 5e stuff where things like position of dominance matter, basically give them advantage for flanking except for the wild card who ducks into the photography. studio, but by then the gunfights over and he's seriously outgunned).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
not wanting to add to any report card fuzzyies but doesn't surprize figure in this somehow?
If the shove to prone initiating combat surprised the shovie even if their initiative was higher they wouldn't be able to act till the next round so the shover would get his shove to prone in.
Personally in the case of surprize I'd say you can't change your shove now to say setting up a heavy ballista and shooting the guy in the back...
in the case of no surprise then things are free flowing and I'd be open to letting the shover change their attack
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
The way I'd describe this, if the PC did not get surprise and lost initiative, would be something like "You move towards [X], intending to shove it, but it notices you coming and tries to bite your head off. What do you do?"
If the PC caught the monster unaware then they should have surprised that monster, meaning the Monster could not move or take any Actions on its first turn, and cannot take a Reaction during the first round until after their turn of doing nothing (because they were surprised). So even if the monster does beat out the PC on Initiative, that PC would still have gotten the drop on it and been able to take the Attack action to attempt the Shove.
If the monster was not surprised, and the PC beats it out on Initiative, then the PC would act normally, but then the monster would just stand right back up again on their turn. That is unless that PC has Extra Attack and could then use their other attack to Grapple the monster, effectively pinning it down.
If the monster was not surprised and beats out the PC on Initiative, then the PC would be able to take any actions the player wants on its turn since that’s how Initiative works.
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Yeah I would let the players resolve the shove and then go with initiative order, my logic being the shove is what began initiative. It's a bit of a reward for the player choosing to strike first, BUT it works the other way around and, in another encounter, an enemy might decide diplomacy has gone far enough and gain the same benefit.
I think a lot depends on whether the NPC is aware of the threat. If there is a tense stand-off between the party and the NPCs who are clearly hostile to each other even if it hasn't actually come to blows yet then the NPCs are eying him and see the PC start to move aggressively and make their own attacks first (if they win initiative), in this case the situation has changed before the player's turn comes round so they are not compelled to do the declared action (they might not even be able to if for example an enemy caster cast hold person on them).
If there evidence of a threat then the NPC is surprised, you need to consider whether the rest of the party is surprised, if before the meeting they had agreed if any of them thought negotiation was likely to fail then they would attack I would rule the rest of the party are not surprised, if such circumstances it is possible another party member sees the attacking intent from the "declarer" and is able to get his attack in first (again the declarer would not have to shove as the situation has changed).
If there was no such discussion and the rest of the party are as surprised as the NPCs at the attack then I would rule everyone except the person who said they would shove the NPC are surprised (including the rest of the party).
JC covers something similar in this Sage Advice podcast as it covers surprise and reaction alone the lines of the scenario you have put together.
The game has an initiative system precisely because outside of surprise actions, one does not simply choose to strike first in D&D. You may want to do something, but at the end of the day some monsters and PCs are just faster on the draw. And your reversal is precisely why it's more prudent to adhere to the rules than imagine some special rules for deciding to shove someone.
Shove uses the attack action, as discussed in the rules chapter on combat, so why shouldn't it be governed by the rules of combat? Now sneaking and shoving via surprise is one thing, or articulating going for a a sucker punch style of attack is possible, but it's not granted, there need to be some sort of mechanic securing surprise, otherwise it's an action in combat, so whether they get to do that is entirely dependent on initiative resolution.
Take the opposite task, characters feel they're about to be arrested or attacked by a group they're parlaying with and decide to run away. Do you just let them run or do they roll for initiative to see if they can get dashes going before their opposition attacks.
Shoving isn't some "out there" concept beyond the rules. It's governed by combat and is subject to how combat is resolved, starting with initiative.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The precipitating event is the start of the move towards shoving someone. They might jump out of the way before you can fully establish your shove, or they might draw a weapon and stab you as you move forwards whilst raising your hands towards their chest.
The creature is definitely not surprised.
This sounds right to me. Thanks all.
DM - And In The Darkness, Rot: The Sunless Citadel
DM - Our Little Lives Kept In Equipoise: Curse of Strahd
DM - Misprize Thou Not These Shadows That Belong: The Lost Mines of Phandelver
PC - Azzure - Tyranny of Dragons
I always love the idea that a player says "I stab that creature", at which point the DM goes, "well let's just see what they think about you lunging forwards. Roll initiative."
The character declares "intention" of shoving another creature. He didn't do anything yet except perhaps starting to approach his hand.
Since neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other and no surprise occur.
Initiative is rolled for both creatures.
Everyone take turns. The character could proceed with a shove or decide to do another action instead.