I have an encounter coming up where the rogue has a cloak of elvenkind, and the party will be likely facing a druid who has Changed Shape to an earth elemental. I am assuming the earth elemental will be able to know the rogue's location even with the cloak's hood up, based on "he elemental can pinpoint the precise location of any foe that stands on solid ground in its vicinity."
Any thoughts on this?
Cloak of Elvenkind "while you wear this cloak with its hood up, Wisdom (Perception) checks made to see you have disadvantage, and you have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide, as the cloak's color shifts to camouflage you. Pulling the hood up or down requires an action."
Let's look at the ability that earth elementals have:
Tremorsense
A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance.
Tremorsense can't be used to detect flying or incorporeal creatures. Many burrowing creatures, such as ankhegs, have this special sense.
The elemental, or wild shifted druid in this case, doesn't need to make a Perception check to spot hidden enemies as long as they're touching the ground and are within 60 feet of the elemental. That completely bypasses the cloak's effects.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The boots wouldn't work either. Tremorsense doesn't work based on sound, it's an auto-detection effect as long as the target is touching the ground inside the radius. The only ways to avoid it are not touching the ground or being outside the radius.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The boots wouldn't work either. Tremorsense doesn't work based on sound, it's an auto-detection effect as long as the target is touching the ground inside the radius.
Tremorsense detects vibration. Nothing in the rules explains what 'vibration' is, and the common language meaning of the word is at least closely related to sound.
Sounds are vibrations that have been converted by an ear. You know the old question about if a tree falls in the woods and there’s nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound? The answer is “no.” If there is no ear to convert the vibrations into sounds then the vibrations are only vibrations, nothing more.
Sounds are vibrations that have been converted by an ear.
Sound waves are compression waves, which are a subset of vibration. Still, hard to be silent without also reducing vibrations, and there's no question that real world vibration sensors (and Dune sandworms) will be less likely to detect you if you walk softly.
The boots make it hard to hear you, but there are more vibrations than just audible sound. The ability doesn't work by detecting your footsteps, it detects things that are in contact with the ground. The boots only give you advantage on stealth checks, they don't make you completely undetectable.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The boots make it hard to hear you, but there are more vibrations than just audible sound. The ability doesn't work by detecting your footsteps, it detects things that are in contact with the ground. The boots only give you advantage on stealth checks, they don't make you completely undetectable.
The ability works by detecting vibrations. If you aren't creating vibrations, it won't detect you. This is not to say that boots of elvenkind should render you totally invisible to tremorsense, but it should be possible to hide and the boots would provide their normal bonus.
Unless you can turn completely still like a statue, you're going to be producing minute vibrations. The ability's description doesn't say anything about requiring hearing- it will still work, for example, if you're Deafened.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Tremor sense is not typically used for super hearing, blindsight is. For example the bat has blind sight with an addendum saying it uses echolocation and cant use it if deafened.
Tremor sense is instead used for a kind of oneness with the earth or feeling the earth. For example earth elemental which is made of earth and the umber hulk which has feelers that burrow into the earth. What tremor sense relies on is touching the same surface.
Summary
Toph has tremor sense if you touch the ground she sees you Dare devil has blind sight if you make a sound or smell he sees you
Unless you can turn completely still like a statue, you're going to be producing minute vibrations. The ability's description doesn't say anything about requiring hearing- it will still work, for example, if you're Deafened.
Your heart beating whilst standing still could generate vibrations in the ground - so the tremorsense of an earth elemental could be sensitive enough to detect this.
I'd say while Tremor Sense may detect a hidden creature's location, it could still possibly be unseen and unheard, since these relates to different senses.
@JeremyECrawfordTremorsense doesn't automatically nullify someone else's Stealth. It lets you notice someone in contact with the ground on the other side of a wall, for instance. But a person can still move stealthily enough to escape the notice of a creature with tremorsense. #DnD
To me this is incredibly easy to break down honestly if anyone has seen Dune or read the books. Tremmorsense works the EXACT same way that it does for the worms in Dune, as well as worms in real life or more known, spiders. While they do indeed look for vibrations, they also look for a PATTERN in said vibrations. EVERYTHING creates vibrations, meaning a bigger animal would most likely look for bigger sources of vibration as well as repeated patterns of it, showing that it is in fact a LIVING thing and not just junk moving around due to whatever. What my point is is this, I would totally take the idea of "If a player tries to mask his patterns by walking weirdly, as in avoiding a pattern, maybe taking one step and then another after 10 seconds" I might rule it as the monster having to actually do a check to see if it believes it is a living thing or not doing the slight vibration it senses once in a while, most likely with advantage if it is not a young monster, as in it has experience.
I'd say while Tremor Sense may detect a hidden creature's location, it could still possibly be unseen and unheard, since these relates to different senses.
@JeremyECrawfordTremorsense doesn't automatically nullify someone else's Stealth. It lets you notice someone in contact with the ground on the other side of a wall, for instance. But a person can still move stealthily enough to escape the notice of a creature with tremorsense. #DnD
If we accept stealth working, I think the main question is whether boots of elvenkind would be relevant.
The boots of elvenkind are relevant only for moving silently, not to be hidden. But going with the same principle, successfully moving silently would mean the creature with Tremor Sense wouldn't hear you move, but could still detect you and be able to pinpoint your location.
Yeah, As I understand it you can kind of roll individual senses for detection and stealth. A wolf has advantage on hearing a smell for example. Some sense like darkvision and truesight talk about seeing so can be considered part of sight but others like blindsight and tremorsense don't. So blind sight and tremor sense act as like additional senses other than smell hear or touch unless stated otherwise
If a sense talks about seeing the cloak of elvenkind works if they roll perception to see you or you roll to avoid being seen.
If a sense mentions hearing then the boots of elvenkind work against it.
If a sense talks about detecting as perceiving as blindsight and tremorsense then something special needs to be done to hide specific to that sense.
Its probably reasonable to ask players how they intend to hide because that could effect some monsters.
I would disagree with you in that the sound exists independently of being heard, but that is more of a philosophical question than a physical question.
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I have an encounter coming up where the rogue has a cloak of elvenkind, and the party will be likely facing a druid who has Changed Shape to an earth elemental. I am assuming the earth elemental will be able to know the rogue's location even with the cloak's hood up, based on "he elemental can pinpoint the precise location of any foe that stands on solid ground in its vicinity."
Any thoughts on this?
Cloak of Elvenkind "while you wear this cloak with its hood up, Wisdom (Perception) checks made to see you have disadvantage, and you have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide, as the cloak's color shifts to camouflage you. Pulling the hood up or down requires an action."
Let's look at the ability that earth elementals have:
The elemental, or wild shifted druid in this case, doesn't need to make a Perception check to spot hidden enemies as long as they're touching the ground and are within 60 feet of the elemental. That completely bypasses the cloak's effects.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
However, boots of elvenkind might be effective against tremorsense, and of course any means of flight will do the job.
The boots wouldn't work either. Tremorsense doesn't work based on sound, it's an auto-detection effect as long as the target is touching the ground inside the radius. The only ways to avoid it are not touching the ground or being outside the radius.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Tremorsense detects vibration. Nothing in the rules explains what 'vibration' is, and the common language meaning of the word is at least closely related to sound.
Sounds are vibrations that have been converted by an ear. You know the old question about if a tree falls in the woods and there’s nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound? The answer is “no.” If there is no ear to convert the vibrations into sounds then the vibrations are only vibrations, nothing more.
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Sound waves are compression waves, which are a subset of vibration. Still, hard to be silent without also reducing vibrations, and there's no question that real world vibration sensors (and Dune sandworms) will be less likely to detect you if you walk softly.
The boots make it hard to hear you, but there are more vibrations than just audible sound. The ability doesn't work by detecting your footsteps, it detects things that are in contact with the ground. The boots only give you advantage on stealth checks, they don't make you completely undetectable.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The ability works by detecting vibrations. If you aren't creating vibrations, it won't detect you. This is not to say that boots of elvenkind should render you totally invisible to tremorsense, but it should be possible to hide and the boots would provide their normal bonus.
Unless you can turn completely still like a statue, you're going to be producing minute vibrations. The ability's description doesn't say anything about requiring hearing- it will still work, for example, if you're Deafened.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Tremor sense is not typically used for super hearing, blindsight is. For example the bat has blind sight with an addendum saying it uses echolocation and cant use it if deafened.
Tremor sense is instead used for a kind of oneness with the earth or feeling the earth. For example earth elemental which is made of earth and the umber hulk which has feelers that burrow into the earth. What tremor sense relies on is touching the same surface.
Summary
Toph has tremor sense if you touch the ground she sees you
Dare devil has blind sight if you make a sound or smell he sees you
Your heart beating whilst standing still could generate vibrations in the ground - so the tremorsense of an earth elemental could be sensitive enough to detect this.
I'd say while Tremor Sense may detect a hidden creature's location, it could still possibly be unseen and unheard, since these relates to different senses.
Stealth can still fool Tremor Sense according to the Dev https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/944013100943994880?s=20&t=JzyHaSFEMVGiD1daaR4ZLw
To me this is incredibly easy to break down honestly if anyone has seen Dune or read the books. Tremmorsense works the EXACT same way that it does for the worms in Dune, as well as worms in real life or more known, spiders. While they do indeed look for vibrations, they also look for a PATTERN in said vibrations. EVERYTHING creates vibrations, meaning a bigger animal would most likely look for bigger sources of vibration as well as repeated patterns of it, showing that it is in fact a LIVING thing and not just junk moving around due to whatever. What my point is is this, I would totally take the idea of "If a player tries to mask his patterns by walking weirdly, as in avoiding a pattern, maybe taking one step and then another after 10 seconds" I might rule it as the monster having to actually do a check to see if it believes it is a living thing or not doing the slight vibration it senses once in a while, most likely with advantage if it is not a young monster, as in it has experience.
If we accept stealth working, I think the main question is whether boots of elvenkind would be relevant.
The boots of elvenkind are relevant only for moving silently, not to be hidden. But going with the same principle, successfully moving silently would mean the creature with Tremor Sense wouldn't hear you move, but could still detect you and be able to pinpoint your location.
Yeah,
As I understand it you can kind of roll individual senses for detection and stealth. A wolf has advantage on hearing a smell for example. Some sense like darkvision and truesight talk about seeing so can be considered part of sight but others like blindsight and tremorsense don't. So blind sight and tremor sense act as like additional senses other than smell hear or touch unless stated otherwise
Its probably reasonable to ask players how they intend to hide because that could effect some monsters.
I would disagree with you in that the sound exists independently of being heard, but that is more of a philosophical question than a physical question.