I am still listening. Thank you. I think I need to focus more on the tiers and see if that helps. I don't love how powerful low level magic users are (compared to other editions), and I think the healing is too easy. With that said, all of this is manageable. We played last night and had a ball, as we usually do. A bunch of 50+ year old guys playing D&D together for decades is worth way more than any quibbles I have with the rules. I will keep on keepin' on.
I started D&D in 2e, played through 3e/3.5, skipped 4e, and have been playing/DMing 5e for about 4ish years. What I can tell you is:
5e was designed to be balanced against almost 0 magic items whatsoever. Except for an uncommon weapon for each of the martial characters by tier 2, and healing potions, they designed 5e to be balanced without any other magic items. So if you do give out magic items then you have to crank up the difficulty of your encounters.
The encounter balancing system is so messed up as to be nigh-worthless. That whole “6-8 medium encounters per adventuring day” line is a load of 💩, nobody I know does that. For the most part, I ncounters come in three flavors: Speed Bumps that the PCs are expected to waffle stomp but they’re there for narrative reasons, Hard encounters that are expected to present a modicum of challenge for the party, and Deadly+ encounters that are expected to legitimately challenge the party. Most DMs I know of only run 3-4 Hard to Deadly+ encounters per adventuring day.
If you think 4th level is “incredibly powerful” then you just need to up your game. Take the kid gloves off. At 4th level they still have their training wheels on (those come off at 5th). At 11h level is when they really start to become “incredibly powerful,” that’s why most campaigns around around 12th to 15th level. (By 17th level a PC is practically a demigod.)
It's all good in the hood. I appreciate all of the feedback. I love D&D and always will. I just want to run good games, and so far, my players are happy.
It's all good in the hood. I appreciate all of the feedback. I love D&D and always will. I just want to run good games, and so far, my players are happy.
My personal #1 piece of advice to DMs is always this:
If you ever wonder if you’re doing a good job as a DM, look around the table. If all of your players are having fun, even if you aren’t strictly following the rules, you did it right.
5E is far easier to understand for 50+ year old folks (our group is in that age group).
3.5E (and PF) required a computer to manage all the different buffs and debuffs that were affecting each PC - and was just a mass of overcomplicated stuff.
I also think that JC likes to wind up rules lawyers :-)
The encounter balancing system is so messed up as to be nigh-worthless. That whole “6-8 medium encounters per adventuring day” line is a load of 💩, nobody I know does that.
Though 3/3.5e did much the same (an even-CR was supposed to deplete 15-20% of resources), though most people didn't actually run it that way. 4e didn't have specific guidelines but in practice an even-level was probably the same 20% (the DMG did have suggestions for including under-level encounters, which not even WotC bothered with).
I too returned to dming D&D after about a 20 year hiatus. A few things I learned that will hopefully help:
5e for whatever reason is designed to be very magic item light. Which I don’t like at all. Not. At. All. I don’t like that part of 5e as a player and I don’t like it as a dm. It’s very hard to balance the official modules if you dump tons of magic items into them, imo. My solution was to homebrew my own setting.
If you are going to hand out magic items like candy to your players hand them out to your bad guys also( a PC fighter wants a +3 sword, sure, cool, the chieftain of the bugbears has one also). This has worked well for me. I try to keep the items equal to or slightly better then what the party has.
Buff solo encounters, or add some minions/environmental factors. Buffing solo monster HP alone is not great imo. I prefer to buff damage output. Giving something 300 hp just makes the encounter take longer. I prefer to leave the health RAW and just make it hit harder. I found that this works better, it creates more tension then whittling away at something.
Groups of enemies just seems to work better. Stops the PCs from focusing firing on one thing and decimating it. One bigger enemy and a hand full of minions, or two-five medium enemies, depending on party size.
The CR system is a base line only, and usually in my experiences underestimates the PCs significantly.
It's all good in the hood. I appreciate all of the feedback. I love D&D and always will. I just want to run good games, and so far, my players are happy.
My personal #1 piece of advice to DMs is always this:
If you ever wonder if you’re doing a good job as a DM, look around the table. If all of your players are having fun, even if you aren’t strictly following the rules, you did it right.
5e feels unbalanced because it IS unbalanced. No matter what you do, no amount of mathematics, stabilizing house rules or homebrew, or anything else can make 5e a balanced game. It is extremely imbalanced by nature. The game-balancing math provided in the DMG doesn't work, challenge rating is a piece of garbage, some characters are inherently more powerful than others, and don't even get me started about the flaws of adventure modules.
My suggestion to you is, don't stress about it. Life isn't balanced, so your simulation of life in a fantasy world doesn't need to be either. In D&D, anything can happen, and actions have consequences. So throw away your math and let the world act like the world will act. If the players are steamrolling everything, challenge them more. Don't worry. They can handle it.
You say you've been a DM for over 40 years? Well, that's more than double the time I've existed on this planet, so I'm certainly no expert. However, it looks to me like in 1e, AD&D, and 2e, the game was designed as a players-versus-DM game where characters live on the edge for the full two sessions before they die, which is very different from the co-operative storytelling game we know D&D as today. In order to create an epic story, however, we need to loosen up on the balance more than a bit. In short, when you say that imbalance is a feature rather than a bug, you could not be more right.
I do agree, though, about the healing. 5e feels in many ways like a video game at times, and the "you-can-be-repeatedly-kicked-inches-away-from-death-but-as-long-as-you-sleep-for-eight-hours-you're-okay" HP system is one of the biggest examples of this complaint. In my D&D campaigns where the party only encounters a few monsters per day and lengthy, monster-packed dungeon crawls are uncommon, "gritty-realism" rules seem perfectly fine.
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Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
You have to read the character classes in 5E very carefully, especially classes outside of the Players Handbook. WotC deliberately puts in power creep for each book to give players an incentive to buy their content. So, if you have players that can read rules and understands how combat works, they can make especially powerful characters rules as written.
One thing you need to state upfront is that if a class/ability becomes broken during play you will rework the class or give the play a free reclass. Unless you read forums and watch videos, its likely you'll miss broken combos that will come up later in play. I've been in scenarios where I had to add an ability or two to monsters to at least give a challenge to a player who found a broken combo. Other things you can do is limit multiclassing to two classes at max, and the point at which you multiclass, you can no longer gain levels in your old class and can now only gain levels in the new class. It helps to break power gaming youtube build guides. It will also make it easier on you to DM, maintain players (non-power gaming players will quit eventually because they feel useless) and simply have more fun.
Lets look at an example of a broken race/class and how to fix them, the Tabaxi Swashbuckler.
-Tabaxi base movement 30 feet and can use claws to move on walls at 30 feet.
-Tabaxi racial can double their movement but must remain still for one turn to get it back. Tabaxi new movement 60 feet.
-Rogue 2nd level get cunning action, as a bonus action can dash. Tabaxi new movement 120 feet.
-Swashbuckler 3rd level gets fancy footfoot, take an attack against an opponent and they can't make an opportunity attack against them. 120 feet movement and no opportunity attack from one opponent.
Change tabaxi racial to where they can use it once per long rest, continual uses can be used but make DC 10 con checks, increasing by 5 each time used past a long rest. On failure takes a level of exhaustion. It cuts down on the supermovement of 120 feet which gives the player the ability to engage on a soft target and get away without reprisal.
Other things with that class combo is the free movement on walls to use range attack, give them disadvantage on ranged attacks to cut down on that boner move. Why, they need 4 hands to climb on walls, they take the hands off to attack, they are using their feet and are now unbalanced on their attacks. Players will try that to eliminate damage chance, meaning you'll have to increase ranged attacks on your encounters to give the player a challenge. Players should not be able to have a 100% reliable perching mechanism with no resource cost during combat to prevent damage. Plus who wants to run mostly 10' ceilings to deal with this, it prevents other players from flying, using levitate etc tactics.
The chances of there ever being a tabaxi PC in my game is zero, dude. I play with a bunch of guys in their 50s. They have no idea what a tabaxi even is!
The chances of there ever being a tabaxi PC in my game is zero, dude. I play with a bunch of guys in their 50s. They have no idea what a tabaxi even is!
If they played back in the day then the default setting was probably Mystara back then. Just tell them Tabaxi = Rakasta, they’ll pro’ly get that.
I DM with a hive of power gamers. I run a harder game, so it does make sense. I had a player drop the tabaxi rogue and switch because there was no challenge for him and he saw what it was doing to the game. Having to come up with new spells, traps and minions to turn a wizard boss fight from 1 round to at least 5 rounds when there is free unopposed movement or teleportation is annoying for tier 1-2.
I was just giving an example of possible pain points with 5E, namely a few character classes and certain racials.
Lets look at an example of a broken race/class and how to fix them, the Tabaxi Swashbuckler.
-Tabaxi base movement 30 feet and can use claws to move on walls at 30 feet.
-Tabaxi racial can double their movement but must remain still for one turn to get it back. Tabaxi new movement 60 feet.
-Rogue 2nd level get cunning action, as a bonus action can dash. Tabaxi new movement 120 feet.
-Swashbuckler 3rd level gets fancy footfoot, take an attack against an opponent and they can't make an opportunity attack against them. 120 feet movement and no opportunity attack from one opponent.
How is 120' of movement every other round broken? There is only so much movement per round that is going to be useful. Any rogue can do this (well, really, any class can...) with the Mobile feat (without the 120' movement, but if Rogue, they get to double move as well).
Lets look at an example of a broken race/class and how to fix them, the Tabaxi Swashbuckler.
-Tabaxi base movement 30 feet and can use claws to move on walls at 30 feet.
-Tabaxi racial can double their movement but must remain still for one turn to get it back. Tabaxi new movement 60 feet.
-Rogue 2nd level get cunning action, as a bonus action can dash. Tabaxi new movement 120 feet.
-Swashbuckler 3rd level gets fancy footfoot, take an attack against an opponent and they can't make an opportunity attack against them. 120 feet movement and no opportunity attack from one opponent.
How is 120' of movement every other round broken? There is only so much movement per round that is going to be useful. Any rogue can do this (well, really, any class can...) with the Mobile feat (without the 120' movement, but if Rogue, they get to double move as well).
They can easily run up to a mage at distance, slicey/dicey and get out. If they have haste, which is what my party does for him, its now at 240 feet of movement. And I do use large maps where movement is very useful, and encounters can start in the 200 feet range outdoors. I do not use theater of mind, which would greatly minimize the effects of movement. To each their own, it becomes self evident of the issue as you play that combo and a person is a good tactician.
-Swashbuckler 3rd level gets fancy footfoot, take an attack against an opponent and they can't make an opportunity attack against them. 120 feet movement and no opportunity attack from one opponent.
Congratulations, you have a quite limited ability to kite monsters. As does any archer. I'm having trouble seeing what's even broken about that; it's a cute trick but that's about it.
Low level magic users in 5e are extremely weak compared to pretty much every other edition. Magic has taken some serious hits as people continue to complain it's overpowered. Simultaneously you have people like myself that feel it's been nerfed and isn't really "magical" anymore.
Low level magic users in 5e are extremely weak compared to pretty much every other edition.
Low level is weak? Have you actually played other editions? They've certainly toned down high level scaling, but low level magic users in prior editions were super pathetic.
Low level magic users in 5e are extremely weak compared to pretty much every other edition.
Low level is weak? Have you actually played other editions? They've certainly toned down high level scaling, but low level magic users in prior editions were super pathetic.
I've played since Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 2nd Edition. Do I need to attach "IMHO" to every post?
Edit: Full disclosure, I regularly forget to factor in Cantrips, which have actually become much more useful with 4e and Beyond (4e Cantrips were the basic attacks of spellcasters)
I am still listening. Thank you. I think I need to focus more on the tiers and see if that helps. I don't love how powerful low level magic users are (compared to other editions), and I think the healing is too easy. With that said, all of this is manageable. We played last night and had a ball, as we usually do. A bunch of 50+ year old guys playing D&D together for decades is worth way more than any quibbles I have with the rules. I will keep on keepin' on.
I started D&D in 2e, played through 3e/3.5, skipped 4e, and have been playing/DMing 5e for about 4ish years. What I can tell you is:
I hope that helps.
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It feels unbalanced because it is. However, there is quite a bit of debate as to what is unbalanced, how unbalanced it is, and how to fix it.
Welcome to TTRPG: Reality.
It's all good in the hood. I appreciate all of the feedback. I love D&D and always will. I just want to run good games, and so far, my players are happy.
My personal #1 piece of advice to DMs is always this:
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
5E is far easier to understand for 50+ year old folks (our group is in that age group).
3.5E (and PF) required a computer to manage all the different buffs and debuffs that were affecting each PC - and was just a mass of overcomplicated stuff.
I also think that JC likes to wind up rules lawyers :-)
Though 3/3.5e did much the same (an even-CR was supposed to deplete 15-20% of resources), though most people didn't actually run it that way. 4e didn't have specific guidelines but in practice an even-level was probably the same 20% (the DMG did have suggestions for including under-level encounters, which not even WotC bothered with).
I too returned to dming D&D after about a 20 year hiatus. A few things I learned that will hopefully help:
Hope some of these are helpful.
All of this...all day long.
5e feels unbalanced because it IS unbalanced. No matter what you do, no amount of mathematics, stabilizing house rules or homebrew, or anything else can make 5e a balanced game. It is extremely imbalanced by nature. The game-balancing math provided in the DMG doesn't work, challenge rating is a piece of garbage, some characters are inherently more powerful than others, and don't even get me started about the flaws of adventure modules.
My suggestion to you is, don't stress about it. Life isn't balanced, so your simulation of life in a fantasy world doesn't need to be either. In D&D, anything can happen, and actions have consequences. So throw away your math and let the world act like the world will act. If the players are steamrolling everything, challenge them more. Don't worry. They can handle it.
You say you've been a DM for over 40 years? Well, that's more than double the time I've existed on this planet, so I'm certainly no expert. However, it looks to me like in 1e, AD&D, and 2e, the game was designed as a players-versus-DM game where characters live on the edge for the full two sessions before they die, which is very different from the co-operative storytelling game we know D&D as today. In order to create an epic story, however, we need to loosen up on the balance more than a bit. In short, when you say that imbalance is a feature rather than a bug, you could not be more right.
I do agree, though, about the healing. 5e feels in many ways like a video game at times, and the "you-can-be-repeatedly-kicked-inches-away-from-death-but-as-long-as-you-sleep-for-eight-hours-you're-okay" HP system is one of the biggest examples of this complaint. In my D&D campaigns where the party only encounters a few monsters per day and lengthy, monster-packed dungeon crawls are uncommon, "gritty-realism" rules seem perfectly fine.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
You have to read the character classes in 5E very carefully, especially classes outside of the Players Handbook. WotC deliberately puts in power creep for each book to give players an incentive to buy their content. So, if you have players that can read rules and understands how combat works, they can make especially powerful characters rules as written.
One thing you need to state upfront is that if a class/ability becomes broken during play you will rework the class or give the play a free reclass. Unless you read forums and watch videos, its likely you'll miss broken combos that will come up later in play. I've been in scenarios where I had to add an ability or two to monsters to at least give a challenge to a player who found a broken combo. Other things you can do is limit multiclassing to two classes at max, and the point at which you multiclass, you can no longer gain levels in your old class and can now only gain levels in the new class. It helps to break power gaming youtube build guides. It will also make it easier on you to DM, maintain players (non-power gaming players will quit eventually because they feel useless) and simply have more fun.
Lets look at an example of a broken race/class and how to fix them, the Tabaxi Swashbuckler.
-Tabaxi base movement 30 feet and can use claws to move on walls at 30 feet.
-Tabaxi racial can double their movement but must remain still for one turn to get it back. Tabaxi new movement 60 feet.
-Rogue 2nd level get cunning action, as a bonus action can dash. Tabaxi new movement 120 feet.
-Swashbuckler 3rd level gets fancy footfoot, take an attack against an opponent and they can't make an opportunity attack against them. 120 feet movement and no opportunity attack from one opponent.
Change tabaxi racial to where they can use it once per long rest, continual uses can be used but make DC 10 con checks, increasing by 5 each time used past a long rest. On failure takes a level of exhaustion. It cuts down on the supermovement of 120 feet which gives the player the ability to engage on a soft target and get away without reprisal.
Other things with that class combo is the free movement on walls to use range attack, give them disadvantage on ranged attacks to cut down on that boner move. Why, they need 4 hands to climb on walls, they take the hands off to attack, they are using their feet and are now unbalanced on their attacks. Players will try that to eliminate damage chance, meaning you'll have to increase ranged attacks on your encounters to give the player a challenge. Players should not be able to have a 100% reliable perching mechanism with no resource cost during combat to prevent damage. Plus who wants to run mostly 10' ceilings to deal with this, it prevents other players from flying, using levitate etc tactics.
The chances of there ever being a tabaxi PC in my game is zero, dude. I play with a bunch of guys in their 50s. They have no idea what a tabaxi even is!
If they played back in the day then the default setting was probably Mystara back then. Just tell them Tabaxi = Rakasta, they’ll pro’ly get that.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I DM with a hive of power gamers. I run a harder game, so it does make sense. I had a player drop the tabaxi rogue and switch because there was no challenge for him and he saw what it was doing to the game. Having to come up with new spells, traps and minions to turn a wizard boss fight from 1 round to at least 5 rounds when there is free unopposed movement or teleportation is annoying for tier 1-2.
I was just giving an example of possible pain points with 5E, namely a few character classes and certain racials.
How is 120' of movement every other round broken? There is only so much movement per round that is going to be useful.
Any rogue can do this (well, really, any class can...) with the Mobile feat (without the 120' movement, but if Rogue, they get to double move as well).
They can easily run up to a mage at distance, slicey/dicey and get out. If they have haste, which is what my party does for him, its now at 240 feet of movement. And I do use large maps where movement is very useful, and encounters can start in the 200 feet range outdoors. I do not use theater of mind, which would greatly minimize the effects of movement. To each their own, it becomes self evident of the issue as you play that combo and a person is a good tactician.
Congratulations, you have a quite limited ability to kite monsters. As does any archer. I'm having trouble seeing what's even broken about that; it's a cute trick but that's about it.
Low level magic users in 5e are extremely weak compared to pretty much every other edition. Magic has taken some serious hits as people continue to complain it's overpowered. Simultaneously you have people like myself that feel it's been nerfed and isn't really "magical" anymore.
Low level is weak? Have you actually played other editions? They've certainly toned down high level scaling, but low level magic users in prior editions were super pathetic.
I've played since Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 2nd Edition. Do I need to attach "IMHO" to every post?
Edit: Full disclosure, I regularly forget to factor in Cantrips, which have actually become much more useful with 4e and Beyond (4e Cantrips were the basic attacks of spellcasters)