I have a player at my table who's playing a very min-maxed lvl 5 warlock/paladin character who im having trouble with in terms of balance at the table. They have the most hit points, do the most average damage per round, can do a bunch of cool spells, and can crit and smite like crazy. i've tried talking to them about toning the build down, and tried building a custom class so they can do big nova damage, but they wont budge. they want to take away some of their lesser abilities, but this is a long running campaign and im worried they'll just replace those lost abilities with more unbalanced combos in the future.
what would you do in a situation like this? i dont want to punish them for having fun, but when they can smite for almost 100 dmg its tough to build encounters that are fun for the whole table. is there a way to tone down the warlock/paladin build without destroying that flavour?
I'm a bit confused. What is the level split on the character? A level 5 warlock/1 paladin is not actually optimal. A level 5 paladin/1 hexblade warlock is a popular choice though.
A couple more things ...
If a level 5 character is smiting for almost 100 damage - you are playing some rule or rules incorrectly. I've both played and run games with optimized paladin/warlocks and they aren't overpowered, nor do they outperform or unbalance other classes by a huge amount at the table. Paladin's are usually appreciated for their aura of protection.
Questions:
1) Did you use point buy or rolled stats?
2) A level 5 warlock/paladin - assuming 4 paladin/1 warlock has ONE attack with their attack action. They also have ONLY four first level spells. A first level spell used for smiting does an extra 2d8 damage to the target (3d8 if it is a fiend or undead). Assuming that they are a hexblade warlock, that they took the polearm master feat (for the bonus action attack) and are using a staff or spear with a primary stat of 18. If they want to use hexblade's curse for a crit range of 19-20 it requires a bonus action. The extra attack from polearm master also uses a bonus action so they can't do both in the first round of combat.
If we assume a strength of 18 wielding a glaive then this is d10+4 + 2d8 damage when smiting = 17.5 on average. On a crit this goes to 2d10+4 + 4d8 = 33. It isn't 100. If they are fighting an undead, they use hexblade's curse on the first round of combat and then make two attacks on the second, crit on both (really unlikely) then the damage is 42 (2d10+4+6d8) for the crit smite plus (2d4+4+6d8) = 36 for a maximum total of 78 average. However, that requires two crits in a row and after that the paladin has used 2 1st level spell slots and only has 2 left. So they don't have the spell slots to cast a "bunch of cool spells" and "smite like crazy" - they run out of resources.
One of the features of the paladin is burst damage from smiting but they run out of spell slots quickly that way. There are several ways to mitigate it as a DM. Have a group of opponents rather than just one. Have two somewhat more powerful opponents rather than one much more powerful. Have more than one combat encounter on some days. If the paladin uses all their spell slots on the first fight, the only ones they are getting back are the warlock slots and the limited use channel divinity to get a spell slot back which at level 5 is one/day.
3) Having the most hit points - a fighter or ranger with the same con would have more since they don't have any warlock levels, a barbarian would have more also - unless you used rolled stats and the character has a high constitution along with everything else.
Anyway, it would be interesting to hear why the paladin seems to you to be so powerful.
is this a problem because warlock’s get a couple high level spells the paladin can use for smite?
Whats the rest of the team? Is the player the only strong character? Or the only min/maxer?
Not going to pretend I have tonnes of exp as a DM, I’d prefer not to nerf player characters, they made choices to be cool. As DM you can alter encounters on the fly, so maybe a monster has more health or resistance to slashing damage etc. I found my players were smashing encounters that the CR rating would deem deadly, they have been challenged the most when playing closer to an “adventure day” as suddenly resources management becomes an issue, should they burn those spells or save the slots etc.
Maybe don't "handle" the min/max build, but challenge the team.
This PC can't crit an unconscious party member back to life. Give them choices that don't include attack, crit, smite, repeat. Even a superhero can fail a saving throw sometimes, and if the rest of the party is failing saving throws, and dropping like flies, the lone wolf will eventually fall to the Shadow, or Intellect Devourer.
To be certain, I'm not suggesting that you target this PC. I'm suggesting that you target everyone else and ignore this PC.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Assuming there's not other shenanigans going on, such as magic items or other non-standard homebrew rules going on, I'm with David here. If your PC is smiting for nearly 100 damage on a regular basis, there's almost certainly something wrong. There's no world in which the math works out to allow for it, given level 5 and any amount of Warlock/Pali multiclassing, regardless of the split. Even assuming 2nd level spells (only possible if it's a Warlock 3 / Paladin 2 split) and best case scenario of fighting an undead or fiend for an additional 1d8 on the smite, that's still just 4d8 smite damage, max damage of 32. So a crit at max damage is 64 smite damage. Sure, adding weapon damage onto that with a Greatsword is I guess close to 100 but that's literally max rolls on everything AND a critical hit, wielding a 2-handed weapon. And only doable 2x per short rest with the Warlock spell slots. Also, if they are doing this then they aren't doing "a bunch of cool spells". They are doing a lot of single-target damage instead.
One thing to think about, are you only doing 1 big combat per short rest on a regular basis? If so, then this player maybe figured out that they can just go all out every time and blow stuff up, get a rest in, and do it again. Make sure that at least some times your players have to make choices on if now is the best time to spend resources or if they need to save them for later.
So, this is old fashion thoughts to be honest, but I've always ruled at my tables that Warlock/Paladin builds are incompatible. My paladins have to swear their oaths to gain power from a divine source (i.e. a God or other higher being). That concept is incompatible with being in service to a Warlock patron who is as written not a god (and at my tables usually from the lower planes). I know that not a lot of players around here like this idea because it's old fashioned, but frankly I've not yet seen a player have issue with this ruling at the table especially when I explain this early on.
Frankly, I'd simply force their paladin self into an Oathbreaker if that was where the bulk of levels were. If the bulk of levels were in Warlock, their Patron would be going after them to fulfil the pact, possibly even depowering the Warlock pact bonus to try and lure the character back from, as the patron sees it, another patron.
If your world (as is common currently) does not require actual allegiance to either a divine being in the case of Paladins, or lower patron in the case of warlock, you're still the GM. The simple answer is to say, no sorry that class combo doesn't work because it hands you an unfair advantage over the other players at the table. We can try allowing you to multi-class it with a different build, but this one is off limits. You can hand wave the storytelling on this to explain to the party that the PCs Warlock patron has punished the PC in question because they tried to make what the patron saw as a pact with another being. Or you could simply have the party at a large town where there is the downtime to allow the PC to respec and retrain.
this is a great idea! i for sure dont want to single this player out, so putting some other challenges on the table can be fun, and also maybe let some of the other players rise up and take the spotlight some more. thanks for the advice :)
One thing to think about, are you only doing 1 big combat per short rest on a regular basis? If so, then this player maybe figured out that they can just go all out every time and blow stuff up, get a rest in, and do it again. Make sure that at least some times your players have to make choices on if now is the best time to spend resources or if they need to save them for later.
This is a big one. Sounds like this guy has a habit of unloading everything he's got fairly quickly. You need longer adventuring days, or higher requirements for resting. Don't let them short rest (or god forbid long rest) after every single fight - the game is not balanced for that and this combo is one the best examples of that.
I'm also going to echo the others here and say you need to make sure the player is calculating their damage right. At best, there's some confusion/misunderstanding on how things work and at worst he's just blatantly cheating. But this guy can't legally be dropping 100 points of damage unless you gave him some wild homebrew items.
One thing they might have confused is Thirsting Blade, which allows you to attack twice and has a level prerequisite of 5. Even though the character is 5th level, at the end of the Eldritch Invocations feature it specifies that the level prerequisite refers to the levels in the warlock class, so the character does not yet meet the prerequisite to do this. Nor can they have Extra Attacks from paladin yet.
If I'm reading it right it's a level 5 character Pal/Lock multiclass.
-This mean there is no extra attack, while other monoclass be doing as much, if not significantly more damage. -They need a spellcasting focus or open hand to cast warlock spells, unless they have warcaster or improved pact weapon and pact of the blade. -If they do have improved pact weapon then they don't have their oath.
Nothing about this is overpowered at all. If anything not having 2 attacks is going to make this character pretty weak unless they are using smite almost every round. If they are able to smite all the time, the issue is in your DMing, not the build. Im guessing the issue is/are:
-There is some spell/ability/feature/rule that you are reading incorrectly and the way you are playing it is what is causing the problem.
-If they are using smite every round then you are either letting them rest when every they want with no cost/risk, or you aren't challenging them with combats, either in difficulty or number of combats per long rest.
I have a player at my table who's playing a very min-maxed lvl 5 warlock/paladin character who im having trouble with in terms of balance at the table. They have the most hit points, do the most average damage per round, can do a bunch of cool spells, and can crit and smite like crazy. i've tried talking to them about toning the build down, and tried building a custom class so they can do big nova damage, but they wont budge. they want to take away some of their lesser abilities, but this is a long running campaign and im worried they'll just replace those lost abilities with more unbalanced combos in the future.
what would you do in a situation like this? i dont want to punish them for having fun, but when they can smite for almost 100 dmg its tough to build encounters that are fun for the whole table. is there a way to tone down the warlock/paladin build without destroying that flavour?
I'm a bit confused. What is the level split on the character? A level 5 warlock/1 paladin is not actually optimal. A level 5 paladin/1 hexblade warlock is a popular choice though.
A couple more things ...
If a level 5 character is smiting for almost 100 damage - you are playing some rule or rules incorrectly. I've both played and run games with optimized paladin/warlocks and they aren't overpowered, nor do they outperform or unbalance other classes by a huge amount at the table. Paladin's are usually appreciated for their aura of protection.
Questions:
1) Did you use point buy or rolled stats?
2) A level 5 warlock/paladin - assuming 4 paladin/1 warlock has ONE attack with their attack action. They also have ONLY four first level spells. A first level spell used for smiting does an extra 2d8 damage to the target (3d8 if it is a fiend or undead). Assuming that they are a hexblade warlock, that they took the polearm master feat (for the bonus action attack) and are using a staff or spear with a primary stat of 18. If they want to use hexblade's curse for a crit range of 19-20 it requires a bonus action. The extra attack from polearm master also uses a bonus action so they can't do both in the first round of combat.
If we assume a strength of 18 wielding a glaive then this is d10+4 + 2d8 damage when smiting = 17.5 on average. On a crit this goes to 2d10+4 + 4d8 = 33. It isn't 100. If they are fighting an undead, they use hexblade's curse on the first round of combat and then make two attacks on the second, crit on both (really unlikely) then the damage is 42 (2d10+4+6d8) for the crit smite plus (2d4+4+6d8) = 36 for a maximum total of 78 average. However, that requires two crits in a row and after that the paladin has used 2 1st level spell slots and only has 2 left. So they don't have the spell slots to cast a "bunch of cool spells" and "smite like crazy" - they run out of resources.
One of the features of the paladin is burst damage from smiting but they run out of spell slots quickly that way. There are several ways to mitigate it as a DM. Have a group of opponents rather than just one. Have two somewhat more powerful opponents rather than one much more powerful. Have more than one combat encounter on some days. If the paladin uses all their spell slots on the first fight, the only ones they are getting back are the warlock slots and the limited use channel divinity to get a spell slot back which at level 5 is one/day.
3) Having the most hit points - a fighter or ranger with the same con would have more since they don't have any warlock levels, a barbarian would have more also - unless you used rolled stats and the character has a high constitution along with everything else.
Anyway, it would be interesting to hear why the paladin seems to you to be so powerful.
is this a problem because warlock’s get a couple high level spells the paladin can use for smite?
Whats the rest of the team? Is the player the only strong character? Or the only min/maxer?
Not going to pretend I have tonnes of exp as a DM, I’d prefer not to nerf player characters, they made choices to be cool. As DM you can alter encounters on the fly, so maybe a monster has more health or resistance to slashing damage etc. I found my players were smashing encounters that the CR rating would deem deadly, they have been challenged the most when playing closer to an “adventure day” as suddenly resources management becomes an issue, should they burn those spells or save the slots etc.
Maybe don't "handle" the min/max build, but challenge the team.
This PC can't crit an unconscious party member back to life. Give them choices that don't include attack, crit, smite, repeat. Even a superhero can fail a saving throw sometimes, and if the rest of the party is failing saving throws, and dropping like flies, the lone wolf will eventually fall to the Shadow, or Intellect Devourer.
To be certain, I'm not suggesting that you target this PC. I'm suggesting that you target everyone else and ignore this PC.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Assuming there's not other shenanigans going on, such as magic items or other non-standard homebrew rules going on, I'm with David here. If your PC is smiting for nearly 100 damage on a regular basis, there's almost certainly something wrong. There's no world in which the math works out to allow for it, given level 5 and any amount of Warlock/Pali multiclassing, regardless of the split. Even assuming 2nd level spells (only possible if it's a Warlock 3 / Paladin 2 split) and best case scenario of fighting an undead or fiend for an additional 1d8 on the smite, that's still just 4d8 smite damage, max damage of 32. So a crit at max damage is 64 smite damage. Sure, adding weapon damage onto that with a Greatsword is I guess close to 100 but that's literally max rolls on everything AND a critical hit, wielding a 2-handed weapon. And only doable 2x per short rest with the Warlock spell slots. Also, if they are doing this then they aren't doing "a bunch of cool spells". They are doing a lot of single-target damage instead.
One thing to think about, are you only doing 1 big combat per short rest on a regular basis? If so, then this player maybe figured out that they can just go all out every time and blow stuff up, get a rest in, and do it again. Make sure that at least some times your players have to make choices on if now is the best time to spend resources or if they need to save them for later.
So, this is old fashion thoughts to be honest, but I've always ruled at my tables that Warlock/Paladin builds are incompatible. My paladins have to swear their oaths to gain power from a divine source (i.e. a God or other higher being). That concept is incompatible with being in service to a Warlock patron who is as written not a god (and at my tables usually from the lower planes). I know that not a lot of players around here like this idea because it's old fashioned, but frankly I've not yet seen a player have issue with this ruling at the table especially when I explain this early on.
Frankly, I'd simply force their paladin self into an Oathbreaker if that was where the bulk of levels were. If the bulk of levels were in Warlock, their Patron would be going after them to fulfil the pact, possibly even depowering the Warlock pact bonus to try and lure the character back from, as the patron sees it, another patron.
If your world (as is common currently) does not require actual allegiance to either a divine being in the case of Paladins, or lower patron in the case of warlock, you're still the GM. The simple answer is to say, no sorry that class combo doesn't work because it hands you an unfair advantage over the other players at the table. We can try allowing you to multi-class it with a different build, but this one is off limits. You can hand wave the storytelling on this to explain to the party that the PCs Warlock patron has punished the PC in question because they tried to make what the patron saw as a pact with another being. Or you could simply have the party at a large town where there is the downtime to allow the PC to respec and retrain.
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this is a great idea! i for sure dont want to single this player out, so putting some other challenges on the table can be fun, and also maybe let some of the other players rise up and take the spotlight some more. thanks for the advice :)
This is a big one. Sounds like this guy has a habit of unloading everything he's got fairly quickly. You need longer adventuring days, or higher requirements for resting. Don't let them short rest (or god forbid long rest) after every single fight - the game is not balanced for that and this combo is one the best examples of that.
I'm also going to echo the others here and say you need to make sure the player is calculating their damage right. At best, there's some confusion/misunderstanding on how things work and at worst he's just blatantly cheating. But this guy can't legally be dropping 100 points of damage unless you gave him some wild homebrew items.
One thing they might have confused is Thirsting Blade, which allows you to attack twice and has a level prerequisite of 5. Even though the character is 5th level, at the end of the Eldritch Invocations feature it specifies that the level prerequisite refers to the levels in the warlock class, so the character does not yet meet the prerequisite to do this. Nor can they have Extra Attacks from paladin yet.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This doesn't make sense.
If I'm reading it right it's a level 5 character Pal/Lock multiclass.
-This mean there is no extra attack, while other monoclass be doing as much, if not significantly more damage.
-They need a spellcasting focus or open hand to cast warlock spells, unless they have warcaster or improved pact weapon and pact of the blade.
-If they do have improved pact weapon then they don't have their oath.
Nothing about this is overpowered at all. If anything not having 2 attacks is going to make this character pretty weak unless they are using smite almost every round. If they are able to smite all the time, the issue is in your DMing, not the build.
Im guessing the issue is/are:
-There is some spell/ability/feature/rule that you are reading incorrectly and the way you are playing it is what is causing the problem.
-If they are using smite every round then you are either letting them rest when every they want with no cost/risk, or you aren't challenging them with combats, either in difficulty or number of combats per long rest.