As the title states, I am building a DMPC lich for a campaign I am going to run soon. I am running almost all the major villains I have planned for the campaign as DMPCs because at the end of the campaign, before the final boss, I plan to have a big fight between parties, with the villains obviously being on the opposing side. The trouble is that I really want one of my villains, Gatlan, to be a lich, because I thought it would be cool, for lack of a better word, to have someone who turned to lichdom to continue studying an ancient demon in my campaign's lore (he is also a warlock to that same demon). With the backstory out of the way, I would like advice on how to make this work. I made their character sheet with everything a high-level warlock needs, and even gave them a custom feat of lichdom, but I am doubting whether this method of a DMPC lich boss is truly viable.
So essentially, you can just run a Reborn Wizard and they'll function as a low-level lich. You can also give them custom spells and abilities that tie in with a lich's (e.g. they gain a Paralysing Touch type ability at some point).
When you say a DMPC, do you mean that they'll be travelling with the party and (seemingly) on the party's side before the final showdown? That's what I understand a DMPC to be.
If the lich is not going to be travelling and levelling up with the party, then I don't see why they need to be a DMPC. Typically, it's the characters who grow and gain power in order to combat the much more powerful enemy (one they can only defeat by working together). If this Lich starts as lower level as a villain, then I don't think that's going to work very well. If the PCs, at level 5, force the level 10 lich to flee, then it's not very satisfying when they face him again at level 9 and suddenly he's up to level 15. It would just feel like "why didn't he cast those spells on us the last time?" The PCs levelling up needs to feel like progress towards accomplishing a tangible goal - if the goalposts keep moving, then are they really levelling up at all?
Is there a particular reason you can't just use the Lich stat block for your NPC and just adjust the spells as needed to fit the sort of caster you need him to replicate? Fully stat-ing out a character sheet for an NPC that will maybe eventually become a monster fight anyway seems tedious.
As stated above you don't need to create something new if there are already examples to use.
The best thing about being the GM is that you can just make it up as you go. Keep the lich information available as a reference then insert whatever you need when the time comes for it.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Using character sheets for BBEGs, even when they have something akin to a character class and levels, is the DM working harder not smarter. There's absolutely no functional reason for a non player character to be filled out on a player character sheet. Player characters use their sheets to stay on top of "leveling up" through accomplishments and overcoming challenges in game. NPCs and monsters can be scaled upwardly to provide suitable challenges for the PCs to overcome. There's also a lot of dysfunction is using DMPCs in things like the encounter builder, you have to convert the character sheet into a stat block anyway. Outside DDB and other digital tools, In practice character sheet vs character sheet fighting has a reputation for being "wild swingy bad" combat.
The Neverdeep adventure, and I think another WotC product, maybe the Dragonlance Game but I might be thinking of a MCDM book, presents the idea of "rivals", giving some guidance to grow an equivalent opposing force of NPCs to a specific party. But I don't think even that's necessary. As the DM you get to do what you want in the interest of your players, tying that to character sheets and the parameters of the PHB dilutes that capacity.
I'm also wondering whether you really mean DMPC. All NPCs are characters for the DM (and the DM gets to make what they want, because that's their prerogative in the game). A DMPC is usually a character sheet a DM constructs that usually accompanies the party, leveling up with the party, sometimes granted a few levels ahead, and basically allows the DM to "play along" with the characters. It sounds like you just really want to create a group of villains worthy of a boss fight. Again, confining that to the strictures of the PHB, as opposed to using the Monster Manual and other monster books' stat block and the DMG guidance on encounter design, really sells short the potential for epicness. NPCs don't get feats and class features. They get actions, and for the epic stuff they get legendary and lair actions, etc.
If it were me I would convert that “DMPC*” to a monster statblock to actually use it. Strip out everything you probably won’t really need, double the hit dice & HP, and possibly give it an excuse to take more actions (like Legendary Actions, etc.). Those are the broad strokes at any rate.
The other thing you could do is to either just use the eldritch lich if you have access to it, since it is already essentially a “Warlock Lich,” or to create your BBE by taking the lich & a Warlock statblock (like warlock of the great old one / warlock of the great old one) and mishmash them to create your BBE.
*I don’t think “DMPC” means what you think it means.
I think I have a different definition of what DMPC means that you do. Any creature in a game that a DM controls is an NPC (non-player character) whether these creatures are created using the rules for building monsters, the rules for building NPCs or are completely made up on the spot. They are all NPCs.
If you want to use the rules for PCs to build several adventurer type NPCs then feel free. PCs typically have a different balance than the usual monster stat blocks but there is nothing intrinsically "incorrect" about using whatever system you like to represent NPC capabilities.
However, a corollary to that is that whatever you decide an NPC can do doesn't need to be, in any way, constrained by PC building rules. If your NPC is a lich, then they are a lich with whatever history and capabilities that implies in your game world.
If the NPC you create does what you want them to do with the abilities, hit points, AC that you were looking for then building them more or less using PC rules is totally viable. Though keep in mind that there is no real requirement that NPCs follow any particular rules for creating them.
P.S. My understanding of the definition of "DMPC" is a PC, in the campaign, that the DM role plays directly as a party member, as if the DM was also playing the game in addition to running it. DMPCs tend to be used in games with rotating DMs where the DMs character becomes a "special" NPC when that person is running a session. This works fine for most folks but it can have a bad rep since some DMs have been known to play favorites with their own character, potentially causing some friction and problems with the group which is why the term "DMPC" can have a negative connotation.
Thanks for all the feedback, I'll try making the lich statblock fit my needs. The only reason I wanted to make the villains evil DMPCs is because I thought it would fit best for the party vs party thing I had in mind.
Again, I think there’s a disconnect with how you’re using the term “DMPC.” Just because it’s made using the rules for PC creation, and the DM is running it doesn’t make it a “DMPC.” What makes it a “DMPC” is that it:
Travels along with the party
Allows the DM to play along with the other players the same as any other PC.
Even if it’s made using the rules for PC creation, and travels along with the party, still isn’t enough to qualify it as a “DMPC.” It’s the part about enabling the DM to play along as if they were any other PC. That’s what makes a “DMPC.” Otherwise it still just an “NPC.”
Again, I think there’s a disconnect with how you’re using the term “DMPC.” Just because it’s made using the rules for PC creation, and the DM is running it doesn’t make it a “DMPC.” What makes it a “DMPC” is that it:
Travels along with the party
Allows the DM to play along with the other players the same as any other PC.
Even if it’s made using the rules for PC creation, and travels along with the party, still isn’t enough to qualify it as a “DMPC.” It’s the part about enabling the DM to play along as if they were any other PC. That’s what makes a “DMPC.” Otherwise it still just an “NPC.”
i had this same idea. you said it was a feind warlich(the best name of anything ever)?
whatever feind this was, it imparted a peice of its esscence to this warlich, and the peice implanted itself into the warlich, its body was flayed open, its hear removed and the peice of the feind implanted itself in place of the heart, becoming the phylactery of the warlich
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
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As the title states, I am building a DMPC lich for a campaign I am going to run soon. I am running almost all the major villains I have planned for the campaign as DMPCs because at the end of the campaign, before the final boss, I plan to have a big fight between parties, with the villains obviously being on the opposing side. The trouble is that I really want one of my villains, Gatlan, to be a lich, because I thought it would be cool, for lack of a better word, to have someone who turned to lichdom to continue studying an ancient demon in my campaign's lore (he is also a warlock to that same demon). With the backstory out of the way, I would like advice on how to make this work. I made their character sheet with everything a high-level warlock needs, and even gave them a custom feat of lichdom, but I am doubting whether this method of a DMPC lich boss is truly viable.
So essentially, you can just run a Reborn Wizard and they'll function as a low-level lich. You can also give them custom spells and abilities that tie in with a lich's (e.g. they gain a Paralysing Touch type ability at some point).
When you say a DMPC, do you mean that they'll be travelling with the party and (seemingly) on the party's side before the final showdown? That's what I understand a DMPC to be.
If the lich is not going to be travelling and levelling up with the party, then I don't see why they need to be a DMPC. Typically, it's the characters who grow and gain power in order to combat the much more powerful enemy (one they can only defeat by working together). If this Lich starts as lower level as a villain, then I don't think that's going to work very well. If the PCs, at level 5, force the level 10 lich to flee, then it's not very satisfying when they face him again at level 9 and suddenly he's up to level 15. It would just feel like "why didn't he cast those spells on us the last time?" The PCs levelling up needs to feel like progress towards accomplishing a tangible goal - if the goalposts keep moving, then are they really levelling up at all?
Is there a particular reason you can't just use the Lich stat block for your NPC and just adjust the spells as needed to fit the sort of caster you need him to replicate? Fully stat-ing out a character sheet for an NPC that will maybe eventually become a monster fight anyway seems tedious.
As stated above you don't need to create something new if there are already examples to use.
The best thing about being the GM is that you can just make it up as you go. Keep the lich information available as a reference then insert whatever you need when the time comes for it.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Using character sheets for BBEGs, even when they have something akin to a character class and levels, is the DM working harder not smarter. There's absolutely no functional reason for a non player character to be filled out on a player character sheet. Player characters use their sheets to stay on top of "leveling up" through accomplishments and overcoming challenges in game. NPCs and monsters can be scaled upwardly to provide suitable challenges for the PCs to overcome. There's also a lot of dysfunction is using DMPCs in things like the encounter builder, you have to convert the character sheet into a stat block anyway. Outside DDB and other digital tools, In practice character sheet vs character sheet fighting has a reputation for being "wild swingy bad" combat.
The Neverdeep adventure, and I think another WotC product, maybe the Dragonlance Game but I might be thinking of a MCDM book, presents the idea of "rivals", giving some guidance to grow an equivalent opposing force of NPCs to a specific party. But I don't think even that's necessary. As the DM you get to do what you want in the interest of your players, tying that to character sheets and the parameters of the PHB dilutes that capacity.
I'm also wondering whether you really mean DMPC. All NPCs are characters for the DM (and the DM gets to make what they want, because that's their prerogative in the game). A DMPC is usually a character sheet a DM constructs that usually accompanies the party, leveling up with the party, sometimes granted a few levels ahead, and basically allows the DM to "play along" with the characters. It sounds like you just really want to create a group of villains worthy of a boss fight. Again, confining that to the strictures of the PHB, as opposed to using the Monster Manual and other monster books' stat block and the DMG guidance on encounter design, really sells short the potential for epicness. NPCs don't get feats and class features. They get actions, and for the epic stuff they get legendary and lair actions, etc.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
If it were me I would convert that “DMPC*” to a monster statblock to actually use it. Strip out everything you probably won’t really need, double the hit dice & HP, and possibly give it an excuse to take more actions (like Legendary Actions, etc.). Those are the broad strokes at any rate.
The other thing you could do is to either just use the eldritch lich if you have access to it, since it is already essentially a “Warlock Lich,” or to create your BBE by taking the lich & a Warlock statblock (like warlock of the great old one / warlock of the great old one) and mishmash them to create your BBE.
*I don’t think “DMPC” means what you think it means.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I think I have a different definition of what DMPC means that you do. Any creature in a game that a DM controls is an NPC (non-player character) whether these creatures are created using the rules for building monsters, the rules for building NPCs or are completely made up on the spot. They are all NPCs.
If you want to use the rules for PCs to build several adventurer type NPCs then feel free. PCs typically have a different balance than the usual monster stat blocks but there is nothing intrinsically "incorrect" about using whatever system you like to represent NPC capabilities.
However, a corollary to that is that whatever you decide an NPC can do doesn't need to be, in any way, constrained by PC building rules. If your NPC is a lich, then they are a lich with whatever history and capabilities that implies in your game world.
If the NPC you create does what you want them to do with the abilities, hit points, AC that you were looking for then building them more or less using PC rules is totally viable. Though keep in mind that there is no real requirement that NPCs follow any particular rules for creating them.
P.S. My understanding of the definition of "DMPC" is a PC, in the campaign, that the DM role plays directly as a party member, as if the DM was also playing the game in addition to running it. DMPCs tend to be used in games with rotating DMs where the DMs character becomes a "special" NPC when that person is running a session. This works fine for most folks but it can have a bad rep since some DMs have been known to play favorites with their own character, potentially causing some friction and problems with the group which is why the term "DMPC" can have a negative connotation.
Ooh that's a good idea....
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Thanks for all the feedback, I'll try making the lich statblock fit my needs. The only reason I wanted to make the villains evil DMPCs is because I thought it would fit best for the party vs party thing I had in mind.
Again, I think there’s a disconnect with how you’re using the term “DMPC.” Just because it’s made using the rules for PC creation, and the DM is running it doesn’t make it a “DMPC.” What makes it a “DMPC” is that it:
Even if it’s made using the rules for PC creation, and travels along with the party, still isn’t enough to qualify it as a “DMPC.” It’s the part about enabling the DM to play along as if they were any other PC. That’s what makes a “DMPC.” Otherwise it still just an “NPC.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Okay, thanks. My idea of DMPC was any character that the dm rolls up a character sheet for, so that's where that disconnect lies.
i had this same idea. you said it was a feind warlich(the best name of anything ever)?
whatever feind this was, it imparted a peice of its esscence to this warlich, and the peice implanted itself into the warlich, its body was flayed open, its hear removed and the peice of the feind implanted itself in place of the heart, becoming the phylactery of the warlich
Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!