So I know RAW there isn't an assassinate type mechanic, but I was wondering if anyone else has one or has figured out that works?
Here is the scenario that arose in my game last night:
The party is facing off against the current BBEG. He is a warlord so a pretty tough enemy, 229 HP. He is sitting on his throne facing off against most of the party in front of him. The rogue managed to sneak in behind him and he has no idea she is there. The party was talking about and wanting to know if she would be able to reach around and slit his throat and deal with him quickly. The problem is even if she passed a hard stealth check and the attack roll, even if she happened to roll a crit and max damage on the die, the max possible damage the dagger could do in a single attack is 11 points of damage, which he would barely notice given his level. But, realistically (as much as we can apply that word to dnd lol) regardless of how strong someone is, short of outside intervention, if you slash someone's neck open, they are dead!
On the one hand, I want to be semi-realistic, at least within the parameters of the game, and reward careful planning and skill in pulling things off. But on the other hand, a level 7 character being able to one shot a level 12 BBEG with a simple dagger doing what amounts to almost no HP damage given his strength has serious balance issues and repercussions for the game. If the BBEG had even been already injured and weakened I probably would have been fine with allowing it, depending on exactly how much they were actually weakened, even if the attack wouldn't technically have taken their last HP.
We talked it out for a bit and I was honest with them that I couldn't allow it because I just don't have a mechanic for it to make it balanced or fair, which the party was fine with and accepted and came up with another plan. But I don't like saying no to something they want to try just because I don't know how to properly run it or have a mechanic for it in the game.
So, what have you guys done in similar circumstances or if you do allow it, how do you run and balance that in your game?
So I know RAW there isn't an assassinate type mechanic, but I was wondering if anyone else has one or has figured out that works?
Actually, there is.....as part of the Assassin Rogue kit:
Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
As a note, having advantage on an attack roll triggers sneak attack dice, which are also doubled in the roll of a critical hit. So the damage would 2d4+ (dex bonus) + Xd6 (where X = the rogues sneak attack dice pool x2).
That said, if that amount of damage is not enough to down an enemy then it becomes up to do, the DM to adjudicate if appropriate measures have been taken and if you want the party to be able to just kill the target. It is possible in your scenario that the Rogue gets in a really good strike and the target manages to struggle in such a way to not be insta-killed (because of all the HP). Then combat ensues and or the target stumbles away bleeding out while guards rush in to protect their warlord. Or maybe something else happens. ha's really up to you.
In the “slit their throats” situations, I usually just set a particularly high DC for a Stealth check, and if they succeed then they just succeed. You managed to sneak up on them so well that you were able to open an artery and they bleed out at your feet. If you fail then the enemy realizes you’re there and can react to your presence.
The underlying issue here is that there's really no location based damage to begin with. You can't say "I'm going to shoot an arrow in the monsters eye" and one shot it either even if you roll a nat 20. What I would have done comes down to narration. Something like "You go in for the strike but the warlord shifts in his chair just before the blow lands. The dagger finds purchase, but fails to land a killing blow." I might award some bonus damage or an auto crit depending on circumstances and high rolls that happened during the event setup. That way the players get something extra for the risk and RP elements but it's not going to be OP and kill the BBEG. I do allow auto kills on sleeping creatures with successful stealth rolls, but that's mostly for trash mobs or very specific scenarios.
This doesn’t quite answer the question, but you might also remind them it would open the door for NPCs to do the same thing to them. That often ends such conversations. The other issue is setting a precedent that it (1-shotting) can happen at all. Because then the cleric hits someone with a hold person, and at that point throat slitting makes a lot of sense to be able to pull off. It really open a can of worms.
it insta kills them, but they return as a revanent, angered that you took out their 200 hp with just a dagger!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Kinda comes back to the age old question of "what is HP, really?" I think a lot of things go into that, but the instinctive drive to avoid lethal damage is one. The Warlord's 229 HP doesn't just represent a number cuts he can absorb; it also represents his will and ability to avoid those cuts, or turn them into less lethal injuries.
If you want to rationalize the mechanics here, there's plenty of reasons trying to cut a guy's throat might not result in immediate death. Maybe he notices the dagger as soon as it touches his skin and twists away, leading to serious but not instantly fatal injuries. Maybe he's wearing a necklace that prevents the cut from being as deep as it needs to be. Maybe he grabs the rogue's hand before they can finish the deed. Plenty of things can happen between deciding to assassinate a guy and actually pulling it off.
I agree with Mdhe ... what are hit points? Physically, the warlord isn't much different from the commoner blacksmith that works out all day. The warlord has 229 hit points and the blacksmith has 4.
An assassinate attack with advantage to hit and automatic critical IS going to easily kill the blacksmith. However, it only takes out a chunk of the warlord's hit points.
So what is the difference that gives two creatures with similar physical characteristics such a huge difference in survivability in the game? It is training, knowledge, reaction time, a bit of a sixth sense for when danger is about to strike, general precautions like always moving a bit to make it much more difficult for an assassin to perfectly position a blade, and many other similar factors including luck. All of these contribute to the hit point number a creature has. In particular, a trained sixth sense for danger, unconscious reactions and luck - even when sleeping, would mean that the death blow for a commoner blacksmith might only be an irritation for the level 12 warlord.
From the rules:
"Your character’s hit points define how tough your character is in combat and other dangerous situations."
"Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile."
Hit points include luck. Having a lot of hit points means that it is much more difficult for a creature to land a finishing blow even if they are completely vulnerable, because luck and anything else that might keep a creature alive are included in the hit points.
Sneak attack dice are your friend here. How you flavor the hit ( describe) is important. Also, highly controversial, but having the sneak attack double with the critical hit is completely OP, but a smart idea if you really want to have them die. Although, even still the max damage would be around 62-64.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
Sneak attack dice are your friend here. How you flavor the hit ( describe) is important. Also, highly controversial, but having the sneak attack double with the critical hit is completely OP, but a smart idea if you really want to have them die. Although, even still the max damage would be around 62-64.
What is controversial? The rules are quite clear on this:
Critical Hits
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target. Roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once.
For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather than 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue’s Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
Huh. A lot of players I play with claim it’s otherwise. That’s cool.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
Normally, I like a stealth check to assassinate, but when it's, like, this cool boss fight you had set up, it does seem like an anticlimax.
Considering how quickly a round of combat is meant to pass in game-time, perhaps it would be fair to flavor the attack as having inflicted a very deep wound which will almost certainly be fatal in the next minute or so, but the warlord, running on adrenaline and anger, is still going to try to bring the players down with him before he expires. Could be codified by giving him like three rounds to live or rapid bleed damage or something.
Normally, I like a stealth check to assassinate, but when it's, like, this cool boss fight you had set up, it does seem like an anticlimax.
Considering how quickly a round of combat is meant to pass in game-time, perhaps it would be fair to flavor the attack as having inflicted a very deep wound which will almost certainly be fatal in the next minute or so, but the warlord, running on adrenaline and anger, is still going to try to bring the players down with him before he expires. Could be codified by giving him like three rounds to live or rapid bleed damage or something.
Ooooooh, I really like this, this may be exactly what I am looking for actually! The other reason I was hesitant to have the rogue slit his throat and kill him is that he is actually the fighters old nemesis, so didn't want to rob the story of him getting the killing blow, but it would totally be right on theme for this party for one of his friends to weaken him and the fighter get the killing blow!
The thing is, HP isn't directly analogous to physical health, and people's default state (especially a paranoid warlord, you could say) is "try not to get your throat slit". Thus, even if your rogue was behind the warlord with a knife, and even if the rogue hit with a sneak attack-- heck, even if it crit, that doesn't necessarily mean that dagger went into neck and sliced away.
The rogue *tries* to do that, but if the warlord still has HP left, then that tells us that the warlord was able to notice/intercept the attack at some level to keep the blade out of his neck. Maybe he caught movement out of the corner of his eye and moved, taking the blow to the shoulder instead. Maybe he tried to lunge forward out of the way after, too late, hearing the swish of the blade and instead only gets grazed along the neck. Regardless, if he has HP by the end of the rogues turn, then that tells us that something like that happened and that's why the warlord is still standing.
The only way an insta-kill assassination really works is if the attack gets rid of all the enemy's hit points.
Now this might seem to present a problem. Does assassination just *never* work in dnd worlds? It's just impossible to kill someone if you're *right behind* them? That seems unrealistic in an immersion-breaking way... right?
Well, consider this. Who is usually, historically, the target of an assassination attempt? Usually public figures, politicians, wealthy people, criminals, etc. If I had to assign a stat block to the type of person you'd usually do the whole "blade in the dark" style assassination on, I would probably say it's Commoner. These are people who are important for their social power and influence, but they're not all powerful fighters. They have other people do the fighting for them, and yeah a single sneak attack in the right planned circumstance will take them out no question. But a powerful warlord? They didn't get where they are by courting the popular vote. They have to stay sharp, trained, alert, and are probably on some level always expecting a blade in the dark, so it's entirely plausible for them to survive an attempt like this unless you have multiple assassins.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So I know RAW there isn't an assassinate type mechanic, but I was wondering if anyone else has one or has figured out that works?
Here is the scenario that arose in my game last night:
The party is facing off against the current BBEG. He is a warlord so a pretty tough enemy, 229 HP. He is sitting on his throne facing off against most of the party in front of him. The rogue managed to sneak in behind him and he has no idea she is there. The party was talking about and wanting to know if she would be able to reach around and slit his throat and deal with him quickly. The problem is even if she passed a hard stealth check and the attack roll, even if she happened to roll a crit and max damage on the die, the max possible damage the dagger could do in a single attack is 11 points of damage, which he would barely notice given his level. But, realistically (as much as we can apply that word to dnd lol) regardless of how strong someone is, short of outside intervention, if you slash someone's neck open, they are dead!
On the one hand, I want to be semi-realistic, at least within the parameters of the game, and reward careful planning and skill in pulling things off. But on the other hand, a level 7 character being able to one shot a level 12 BBEG with a simple dagger doing what amounts to almost no HP damage given his strength has serious balance issues and repercussions for the game. If the BBEG had even been already injured and weakened I probably would have been fine with allowing it, depending on exactly how much they were actually weakened, even if the attack wouldn't technically have taken their last HP.
We talked it out for a bit and I was honest with them that I couldn't allow it because I just don't have a mechanic for it to make it balanced or fair, which the party was fine with and accepted and came up with another plan. But I don't like saying no to something they want to try just because I don't know how to properly run it or have a mechanic for it in the game.
So, what have you guys done in similar circumstances or if you do allow it, how do you run and balance that in your game?
Actually, there is.....as part of the Assassin Rogue kit:
As a note, having advantage on an attack roll triggers sneak attack dice, which are also doubled in the roll of a critical hit. So the damage would 2d4+ (dex bonus) + Xd6 (where X = the rogues sneak attack dice pool x2).
That said, if that amount of damage is not enough to down an enemy then it becomes up to do, the DM to adjudicate if appropriate measures have been taken and if you want the party to be able to just kill the target. It is possible in your scenario that the Rogue gets in a really good strike and the target manages to struggle in such a way to not be insta-killed (because of all the HP). Then combat ensues and or the target stumbles away bleeding out while guards rush in to protect their warlord. Or maybe something else happens. ha's really up to you.
In the “slit their throats” situations, I usually just set a particularly high DC for a Stealth check, and if they succeed then they just succeed. You managed to sneak up on them so well that you were able to open an artery and they bleed out at your feet. If you fail then the enemy realizes you’re there and can react to your presence.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The underlying issue here is that there's really no location based damage to begin with. You can't say "I'm going to shoot an arrow in the monsters eye" and one shot it either even if you roll a nat 20. What I would have done comes down to narration. Something like "You go in for the strike but the warlord shifts in his chair just before the blow lands. The dagger finds purchase, but fails to land a killing blow." I might award some bonus damage or an auto crit depending on circumstances and high rolls that happened during the event setup. That way the players get something extra for the risk and RP elements but it's not going to be OP and kill the BBEG. I do allow auto kills on sleeping creatures with successful stealth rolls, but that's mostly for trash mobs or very specific scenarios.
This doesn’t quite answer the question, but you might also remind them it would open the door for NPCs to do the same thing to them. That often ends such conversations.
The other issue is setting a precedent that it (1-shotting) can happen at all. Because then the cleric hits someone with a hold person, and at that point throat slitting makes a lot of sense to be able to pull off. It really open a can of worms.
I wouldn't want to allow a one-shot on the BBEG. Clever attack and extra damage yes. But not a one hit kill. Talk about anti-climatic.
Or you could and that is part of the plan.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
it insta kills them, but they return as a revanent, angered that you took out their 200 hp with just a dagger!
Pronouns: Any/All
About Me: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes /general of the goose horde /Moderator of Vinstreb School for the Gifted /holder of the evil storyteller badge of no honor /king of madness /The FBI/ The Archmage of I CAST...!
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Fun Fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Kinda comes back to the age old question of "what is HP, really?" I think a lot of things go into that, but the instinctive drive to avoid lethal damage is one. The Warlord's 229 HP doesn't just represent a number cuts he can absorb; it also represents his will and ability to avoid those cuts, or turn them into less lethal injuries.
If you want to rationalize the mechanics here, there's plenty of reasons trying to cut a guy's throat might not result in immediate death. Maybe he notices the dagger as soon as it touches his skin and twists away, leading to serious but not instantly fatal injuries. Maybe he's wearing a necklace that prevents the cut from being as deep as it needs to be. Maybe he grabs the rogue's hand before they can finish the deed. Plenty of things can happen between deciding to assassinate a guy and actually pulling it off.
I agree with Mdhe ... what are hit points? Physically, the warlord isn't much different from the commoner blacksmith that works out all day. The warlord has 229 hit points and the blacksmith has 4.
An assassinate attack with advantage to hit and automatic critical IS going to easily kill the blacksmith. However, it only takes out a chunk of the warlord's hit points.
So what is the difference that gives two creatures with similar physical characteristics such a huge difference in survivability in the game? It is training, knowledge, reaction time, a bit of a sixth sense for when danger is about to strike, general precautions like always moving a bit to make it much more difficult for an assassin to perfectly position a blade, and many other similar factors including luck. All of these contribute to the hit point number a creature has. In particular, a trained sixth sense for danger, unconscious reactions and luck - even when sleeping, would mean that the death blow for a commoner blacksmith might only be an irritation for the level 12 warlord.
From the rules:
"Your character’s hit points define how tough your character is in combat and other dangerous situations."
"Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile."
Hit points include luck. Having a lot of hit points means that it is much more difficult for a creature to land a finishing blow even if they are completely vulnerable, because luck and anything else that might keep a creature alive are included in the hit points.
Sneak attack dice are your friend here. How you flavor the hit ( describe) is important. Also, highly controversial, but having the sneak attack double with the critical hit is completely OP, but a smart idea if you really want to have them die. Although, even still the max damage would be around 62-64.
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
What is controversial? The rules are quite clear on this:
Huh. A lot of players I play with claim it’s otherwise. That’s cool.
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
Normally, I like a stealth check to assassinate, but when it's, like, this cool boss fight you had set up, it does seem like an anticlimax.
Considering how quickly a round of combat is meant to pass in game-time, perhaps it would be fair to flavor the attack as having inflicted a very deep wound which will almost certainly be fatal in the next minute or so, but the warlord, running on adrenaline and anger, is still going to try to bring the players down with him before he expires. Could be codified by giving him like three rounds to live or rapid bleed damage or something.
Medium humanoid (human), lawful neutral
D&D doesn't really use that mechanic often. I like it myself and try to implement it.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Ooooooh, I really like this, this may be exactly what I am looking for actually! The other reason I was hesitant to have the rogue slit his throat and kill him is that he is actually the fighters old nemesis, so didn't want to rob the story of him getting the killing blow, but it would totally be right on theme for this party for one of his friends to weaken him and the fighter get the killing blow!
The thing is, HP isn't directly analogous to physical health, and people's default state (especially a paranoid warlord, you could say) is "try not to get your throat slit". Thus, even if your rogue was behind the warlord with a knife, and even if the rogue hit with a sneak attack-- heck, even if it crit, that doesn't necessarily mean that dagger went into neck and sliced away.
The rogue *tries* to do that, but if the warlord still has HP left, then that tells us that the warlord was able to notice/intercept the attack at some level to keep the blade out of his neck. Maybe he caught movement out of the corner of his eye and moved, taking the blow to the shoulder instead. Maybe he tried to lunge forward out of the way after, too late, hearing the swish of the blade and instead only gets grazed along the neck. Regardless, if he has HP by the end of the rogues turn, then that tells us that something like that happened and that's why the warlord is still standing.
The only way an insta-kill assassination really works is if the attack gets rid of all the enemy's hit points.
Now this might seem to present a problem. Does assassination just *never* work in dnd worlds? It's just impossible to kill someone if you're *right behind* them? That seems unrealistic in an immersion-breaking way... right?
Well, consider this. Who is usually, historically, the target of an assassination attempt? Usually public figures, politicians, wealthy people, criminals, etc. If I had to assign a stat block to the type of person you'd usually do the whole "blade in the dark" style assassination on, I would probably say it's Commoner. These are people who are important for their social power and influence, but they're not all powerful fighters. They have other people do the fighting for them, and yeah a single sneak attack in the right planned circumstance will take them out no question. But a powerful warlord? They didn't get where they are by courting the popular vote. They have to stay sharp, trained, alert, and are probably on some level always expecting a blade in the dark, so it's entirely plausible for them to survive an attempt like this unless you have multiple assassins.