Recently, I was DMing for the first time with my friends as the PCs. We were playing through a new campaign (that I made) and it went bad. mere seconds after the game started the players ignored the obvious story quest (which I will admit was pretty boring) and instead went to the bar and tried to steal, scam and kill everybody (none of the PCs were evil might I add). Well, only 2 PCs did that, but they were the loudest and closest and therefore the others players couldn't get a turn most of the time. They barely played through the story. They only did play through the story because I kept telling them that they cannot kill the villagers because that would throw everything I had planned out the window. I understand now that I shouldn't have said no and just let what happens happen, but I was frustrated that they were trying to do their own thing instead of playing through the epic adventure I had been working on for a while now. Do you have any ideas as to how I can deal with players like those who try to de-rail the whole campaign? And how do I become a better DM so my players can have a good time at our meetups? (btw when i say good campaign I mean they're the good guys)
First and foremost, you need to have a session 0 and make sure every player wants to play the kind of game you have in mind. You can't run an RP-heavy game with players that just want to kill and loot everything and vice-versa.
Secondly, when designing adventures you need to give the characters reasons to care about your quest - preferably multiple reasons, since different characters will have different motivations.
Finally, you need to be willing to improvise. You can't assume everything will go according to your script - more often than not, it won't.
OOOOOHHHH! That's a great idea to have a session 0 (which i'm doing from now on)! getting players to care and improvising is something I'll need to work on. Thanks a lot! these were really good tips!
Also, don’t try to make something to epic to start with. Try running a short arc first. The starter adventure lost mines of Phandelver is really good as it’s easy to run and gives new players good opportunities to fight early on and then sneaks in more role playing. I haven’t run it but I read it and liked it.
Do not plan heavily for a session is my key. If your trying to follow steps 1 through 10 your group will most likely only stay on course up to step 2. Just have key points that they should be aimed at, or can be altered to fit what your players are doing. Being able to improvise is key for a DM, otherwise your just trying to write a book.
As for troublesome players, bring in the guard, capture them, execute them or whatever your society would do with maniacal people. Or, perhaps try and make it an evil campaign with them teaming up with the bad guys/overthrow the bad guy and became the villain themselves. Don't let players actions go unpunished just because they are the players, have a structured society in game with the world revolving around itself and not the players.
As stated, have a chat about what kind of game all want to run. Also, emphasize that while playing everyone should have equal scene time. You, as DM, must make sure it’s not the two loudest being the in the spotlight all the time.
You’ve gotten some great advice already. The only thing I would add is consider a start in media res. Drop something on them that they recently got into and sort out the why in detail later. This helps against the itch to murder and loot off the bat since that’s what they get. Examples are:
- Attacked by bandits, goblins, skeletons or whatever, either in a road somewhere, in an alley or a temple ruin.
- They’re sitting outside a tavern when the building next door explodes and out tumbles wizards attacking everyone.
- They find themselves standing in the first row of a great number of soldiers, about to storm against an equally large host across a field.
- Attack by monsters on the caravan they signed up to protect.
If you want to you can cut to a safer place right after, just stating how they got there or just take it from when the battle ends.
Wow, these are all great tips! Thanks for the help guys! These helped clear my eyes on what a DM needs to be. I was too focused on making a good story and an "epic adventure" without thinking about what the players would do. Thank you so much for helping me be a better DM.
I notice it took you 11 hours to come up with that! :)
Murder hobos are so easy to DM for - just give them 1 encounter after another. (And treasure - they won't be able to spend it becuase they have killed all the merchants, but meh...) They will have fun, they will flex their imaginary muscles and work out all their real-life angst (well maybe not ALL.) They will think you are the greatest DM ever. E V E R.
As DMs we like to surprise players, and show off our smarts...but sometimes you have to give them an idea of where the campaign might be going. I always find the first session or two of a campaign to be the hardest, but if you are lucky (and prepared and great and....) the campaign will build momentum and become something more organic. Beginning characters and beginning characters really need to start off with a clear focus/goal. Then when they veer off your path, they will know it was their choice...and so will you.
Only recently have I come to be offended by terms such as "play through the story." It makes the players into spectators, or sometimes guest actors. Your players sound like they want to move and shake their little corner of the world; if you are going to stick with this group, you are probably going to have to let them.
D&D has alignments to sort of identify "typical behavior or thought" of a character, but this system has never been particularly good for anything other than some very generic guidance.
This. If you read the descriptions for the alignments, it's more like "altruism" vs "selfishness" rather than good or evil. "Good" can be as mild as "just a regular person that never turns down someone in need" and "evil" can be as mild as "I'd throw any of my peers under the bus if it means I get the promotion." The real world is full of people that D&D would categorize as evil. The labels D&D uses are misleading.
IF it's a one-shot, especially if it's highly on rails, I recommend make pre-gen characters. Write up a background to give players and idea of what kind of character it is. I recommend generating 2-3 more characters then there are players so there is a bit of choice. It's fine to have a story on rails, almost all published modules are highly on rails, but the players need buy-in.
Otherwise I agree with InquisitiveCoder, a session 0 is often really important for players and GM to agree to the game they want to play. It's also not on you to say "yes" to everything, this is a learning experience. If some players don't want to play the kind of game you want to run, then it's better for everyone they find a different game and you find different players. Or a "noodle incident" is often a fun way to go. For those of you who aren't knowledgeable in Calvin & Hobbs lore, a "noodle incident" is an event or series of events that are referenced but never totally explained. In one game it was "The Goblin Cave". The group didn't need to meet, they were already a formed group and "The Goblin Cave" was how they met and why they stick together. No one ever explained what happened in "The Goblin Cave", but references to it were often made. ie: "Wow, this sewer almost smells as bad as The Goblin Cave."
alignment is more of a "guideline" then a requirement. Being lawful good doesn't mean you CAN'T do an action, it just means you might not stay lawful good. I like to think of it as a Myers-Briggs test for PCs.
Being a good DM...practice, make mistakes, practice some more, get good, realize you aren't good, practice more, then teach someone and realize you're still learning. That's about 30 years covered in one sentence for my journey as a DM.
Ask your questions here, that's one good step to being a better DM. Watch the overwhelming supply of "how to be a DM" videos on YouTube, watch some of the D&D streams, go read some of the D&D blogs out there, all of that information will give you tools for your DM toolbox. In the end though nothing, absolutely nothing, will help you become a better DM than doing it. Go run modules, create home brew one shots, and stretch your creative muscles as much as you can. Before every session find a skill you want to work on, be it NPC interaction, colorful narration, smoother combat, better map making, whatever, and put your all into it. Then, at the end of the session, ask your players what they thought about that NPC, or how well that fight with the 3 headed bugbear/owlbear/hobgoblin beast went. All of that effort and feedback will pay off as you'll become confident, quick, and comfortable with the various aspects of what's needed behind the screen. Then, when 30 years has passed by, you'll stumble across a blog or book and realize you need to start all over because you've become complacent.
As to the "Good" guys vs "Bad" guys problem you've had, there's a simple answer and that is: consequences. First you have to define "good" and "evil" in your adventure, and when you do please use broad strokes. Example:
Lawful/Chaotic: This is how a creature treats following the law, religious, or social structures. Lawful will try to follow them to the best of their ability. Chaotic will do whatever they want in the moment without regard to those rules.
Good/Evil: This is how a creature handles moral, religious and social ideals. A Good creature will try to do what is beneficial to those ideals. An evil person will do things that go against those ideals.
Neutral: Creatures of this trait will do what they feel is best in the given situation. They are not caught up in the structures or ideals, rather the situation is their guide.
These broad strokes are defined in such a way that a player/creature can float in that grey area of good/evil. When they veer too far in one direction you can have the NPCs in the surrounding area react appropriately.
Players are in a Drow camp, their society dictates a Matriarchy, you help empower a male elf, you are evil in that society. However, you're not evil as a character, because you were raised to treat everyone as equals. The Drow now punish you for a transgression, even though it's not evil by your definition.
Players are in town where they take in children/orphans of war. They poison the town's water supply, almost everyone would see this as evil. Maybe it was secretly an enemy camp where they were using magic to turn the kids into monsters and send them off to fight in the war. Is it still evil? If the city to the east only hears about the group of adventurers who poisoned the town, yup it'll be seen as evil. If the King hears of it, but knows the town was up to no good, maybe the players will get a pardon, an "evil" deed for the greater "good".
...and now we get all sorts of philosophical and psychological debate...but I hope it makes sense.
Recently, I was DMing for the first time with my friends as the PCs. We were playing through a new campaign (that I made) and it went bad. mere seconds after the game started the players ignored the obvious story quest (which I will admit was pretty boring) and instead went to the bar and tried to steal, scam and kill everybody (none of the PCs were evil might I add). Well, only 2 PCs did that, but they were the loudest and closest and therefore the others players couldn't get a turn most of the time. They barely played through the story. They only did play through the story because I kept telling them that they cannot kill the villagers because that would throw everything I had planned out the window. I understand now that I shouldn't have said no and just let what happens happen, but I was frustrated that they were trying to do their own thing instead of playing through the epic adventure I had been working on for a while now. Do you have any ideas as to how I can deal with players like those who try to de-rail the whole campaign? And how do I become a better DM so my players can have a good time at our meetups? (btw when i say good campaign I mean they're the good guys)
First and foremost, you need to have a session 0 and make sure every player wants to play the kind of game you have in mind. You can't run an RP-heavy game with players that just want to kill and loot everything and vice-versa.
Secondly, when designing adventures you need to give the characters reasons to care about your quest - preferably multiple reasons, since different characters will have different motivations.
Finally, you need to be willing to improvise. You can't assume everything will go according to your script - more often than not, it won't.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
OOOOOHHHH! That's a great idea to have a session 0 (which i'm doing from now on)! getting players to care and improvising is something I'll need to work on. Thanks a lot! these were really good tips!
Also, don’t try to make something to epic to start with. Try running a short arc first. The starter adventure lost mines of Phandelver is really good as it’s easy to run and gives new players good opportunities to fight early on and then sneaks in more role playing. I haven’t run it but I read it and liked it.
Do not plan heavily for a session is my key. If your trying to follow steps 1 through 10 your group will most likely only stay on course up to step 2. Just have key points that they should be aimed at, or can be altered to fit what your players are doing. Being able to improvise is key for a DM, otherwise your just trying to write a book.
As for troublesome players, bring in the guard, capture them, execute them or whatever your society would do with maniacal people. Or, perhaps try and make it an evil campaign with them teaming up with the bad guys/overthrow the bad guy and became the villain themselves. Don't let players actions go unpunished just because they are the players, have a structured society in game with the world revolving around itself and not the players.
As stated, have a chat about what kind of game all want to run. Also, emphasize that while playing everyone should have equal scene time. You, as DM, must make sure it’s not the two loudest being the in the spotlight all the time.
You’ve gotten some great advice already. The only thing I would add is consider a start in media res. Drop something on them that they recently got into and sort out the why in detail later. This helps against the itch to murder and loot off the bat since that’s what they get. Examples are:
- Attacked by bandits, goblins, skeletons or whatever, either in a road somewhere, in an alley or a temple ruin.
- They’re sitting outside a tavern when the building next door explodes and out tumbles wizards attacking everyone.
- They find themselves standing in the first row of a great number of soldiers, about to storm against an equally large host across a field.
- Attack by monsters on the caravan they signed up to protect.
If you want to you can cut to a safer place right after, just stating how they got there or just take it from when the battle ends.
I m p r o v
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Wow, these are all great tips! Thanks for the help guys! These helped clear my eyes on what a DM needs to be. I was too focused on making a good story and an "epic adventure" without thinking about what the players would do. Thank you so much for helping me be a better DM.
I notice it took you 11 hours to come up with that! :)
Murder hobos are so easy to DM for - just give them 1 encounter after another. (And treasure - they won't be able to spend it becuase they have killed all the merchants, but meh...) They will have fun, they will flex their imaginary muscles and work out all their real-life angst (well maybe not ALL.) They will think you are the greatest DM ever. E V E R.
As DMs we like to surprise players, and show off our smarts...but sometimes you have to give them an idea of where the campaign might be going. I always find the first session or two of a campaign to be the hardest, but if you are lucky (and prepared and great and....) the campaign will build momentum and become something more organic. Beginning characters and beginning characters really need to start off with a clear focus/goal. Then when they veer off your path, they will know it was their choice...and so will you.
Only recently have I come to be offended by terms such as "play through the story." It makes the players into spectators, or sometimes guest actors. Your players sound like they want to move and shake their little corner of the world; if you are going to stick with this group, you are probably going to have to let them.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
This. If you read the descriptions for the alignments, it's more like "altruism" vs "selfishness" rather than good or evil. "Good" can be as mild as "just a regular person that never turns down someone in need" and "evil" can be as mild as "I'd throw any of my peers under the bus if it means I get the promotion." The real world is full of people that D&D would categorize as evil. The labels D&D uses are misleading.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
A few possibilities.
IF it's a one-shot, especially if it's highly on rails, I recommend make pre-gen characters. Write up a background to give players and idea of what kind of character it is.
I recommend generating 2-3 more characters then there are players so there is a bit of choice.
It's fine to have a story on rails, almost all published modules are highly on rails, but the players need buy-in.
Otherwise I agree with InquisitiveCoder, a session 0 is often really important for players and GM to agree to the game they want to play.
It's also not on you to say "yes" to everything, this is a learning experience. If some players don't want to play the kind of game you want to run, then it's better for everyone they find a different game and you find different players.
Or a "noodle incident" is often a fun way to go. For those of you who aren't knowledgeable in Calvin & Hobbs lore, a "noodle incident" is an event or series of events that are referenced but never totally explained.
In one game it was "The Goblin Cave". The group didn't need to meet, they were already a formed group and "The Goblin Cave" was how they met and why they stick together. No one ever explained what happened in "The Goblin Cave", but references to it were often made. ie: "Wow, this sewer almost smells as bad as The Goblin Cave."
alignment is more of a "guideline" then a requirement. Being lawful good doesn't mean you CAN'T do an action, it just means you might not stay lawful good. I like to think of it as a Myers-Briggs test for PCs.
Being a good DM...practice, make mistakes, practice some more, get good, realize you aren't good, practice more, then teach someone and realize you're still learning. That's about 30 years covered in one sentence for my journey as a DM.
Ask your questions here, that's one good step to being a better DM. Watch the overwhelming supply of "how to be a DM" videos on YouTube, watch some of the D&D streams, go read some of the D&D blogs out there, all of that information will give you tools for your DM toolbox. In the end though nothing, absolutely nothing, will help you become a better DM than doing it. Go run modules, create home brew one shots, and stretch your creative muscles as much as you can. Before every session find a skill you want to work on, be it NPC interaction, colorful narration, smoother combat, better map making, whatever, and put your all into it. Then, at the end of the session, ask your players what they thought about that NPC, or how well that fight with the 3 headed bugbear/owlbear/hobgoblin beast went. All of that effort and feedback will pay off as you'll become confident, quick, and comfortable with the various aspects of what's needed behind the screen. Then, when 30 years has passed by, you'll stumble across a blog or book and realize you need to start all over because you've become complacent.
As to the "Good" guys vs "Bad" guys problem you've had, there's a simple answer and that is: consequences. First you have to define "good" and "evil" in your adventure, and when you do please use broad strokes. Example:
This is how a creature treats following the law, religious, or social structures. Lawful will try to follow them to the best of their ability. Chaotic will do whatever they want in the moment without regard to those rules.
This is how a creature handles moral, religious and social ideals. A Good creature will try to do what is beneficial to those ideals. An evil person will do things that go against those ideals.
Creatures of this trait will do what they feel is best in the given situation. They are not caught up in the structures or ideals, rather the situation is their guide.
These broad strokes are defined in such a way that a player/creature can float in that grey area of good/evil. When they veer too far in one direction you can have the NPCs in the surrounding area react appropriately.
...and now we get all sorts of philosophical and psychological debate...but I hope it makes sense.