Why is it so hard to find DM's to run high level / epic games….
Once a character has exceeded 16th level, they are so powerful as to be analogous to demigods. Playing at that level is simply seen as unenjoyable to many players for a few reasons:
There’s really very little challenge anymore. Once you know your party can engage with the highest CR creatures in the game and that not only is your likelihood of success almost guaranteed, but that the possibility of character death is essentially nonexistent, the sense of challenge is gone, and the therefore the element of excitement is absent which results in the amount of fun being so low that the game becomes boring.
Too many options. By that point most PCs have gained so many features, traits, and feats that they become almost overwhelming to many players.
Not enough decisions to make. By that point a player has been playing their character long enough that they have already figured out what the “best” thing they can have their character do is for almost every situation that comes along most of the time. They no longer really need to think about it much or come to many decisions, they just do the thing. That gets boring to many people after a bit.
Been there, done that. By that point, their PC faces down existential threats on a daily basis. “Oh look, another demon lord… what was the last one’s name…?” When the stuff your character faces on a regular basis can do just about anything, it can start to loose its novelty.
Too much of a good thing. If every day is a sunny day, then WTF is a sunny day…? Being a Tier-4 PC is AWESOME!! It’s like bathing in sunshine all the time. There’s a reason that in some of the most gorgeous places on earth, it rains every afternoon at 3 for 20 minutes. It’s just enough to remind folks how to appreciate the sunshine again.
For players, it’s kinda like punching in the cheat code for godmode into a video game. It can be somewhat entertaining, but it doesn’t last very long. After about 5 minutes it just gets boring for many people. Now, some folks really enjoy playing on godmode, and that’s great. More power to them. But statistically speaking they’re in the minority of people.
in addition to the fact that most players don’t enjoy playing at that level, many DMs don’t enjoy it either. At that point, it can get kinda hard to keep thinking up new 💩 to throw at the party. I mean, once you’ve gone through all the good storylines you could think of that fit together, many of the not so good ones, and have even used a few of the bad ones and feel like you’re literally scraping the bottom of the imagination barrel to find anything that actually fits with everything else that’s happened already and is still plausible… you just want it to end.
So for the vast majority players and DMs it is really, really refreshing and enjoyable to start something new again.
So I'm making an encounter for my level 5 party and one of their opponents is going to be a CR 13 creature who is in no way overpowered for them. They all have +1 magic items and are mostly melee/ranged (non magic) characters, which makes the creature basically a CR 4 or 5, because 90% is what would make them a CR 13 is irrelevant. The CR 7 creature is deadlier and can potentially end in a tpk.... The CR 13 is just an annoying punching bag to soak up some damage likely couldn't kill a single PC before dying.
I don't know how DMs are supposed to run games when the CR rating is so bad once special abilities get involved.
So I'm making an encounter for my level 5 party and one of their opponents is going to be a CR 13 creature who is in no way overpowered for them. They all have +1 magic items and are mostly melee/ranged (non magic) characters, which makes the creature basically a CR 4 or 5, because 90% is what would make them a CR 13 is irrelevant.
I'm curious what monster; maybe rakshasa? I have no idea why that is CR 13 to start with, there's no way I can make the math work for anything close to that CR. In any case, trick monsters are always a problem from a difficulty perspective, and that's not really avoidable.
So I'm making an encounter for my level 5 party and one of their opponents is going to be a CR 13 creature who is in no way overpowered for them. They all have +1 magic items and are mostly melee/ranged (non magic) characters, which makes the creature basically a CR 4 or 5, because 90% is what would make them a CR 13 is irrelevant.
I'm curious what monster; maybe rakshasa? I have no idea why that is CR 13 to start with, there's no way I can make the math work for anything close to that CR. In any case, trick monsters are always a problem from a difficulty perspective, and that's not really avoidable.
Probably because the way a rakshasa should really be used is not the way most campaigns go. It's a social/intrigue monster, not something that should ever be standing and fighting.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Probably because the way a rakshasa should really be used is not the way most campaigns go. It's a social/intrigue monster, not something that should ever be standing and fighting.
CR is fundamentally about measuring how dangerous it is when standing and fighting, but as a social/intrigue monster... is it really significantly more of a threat than a CR 4 incubus?
Why is it so hard to find DM's to run high level / epic games….
Once a character has exceeded 16th level, they are so powerful as to be analogous to demigods. Playing at that level is simply seen as unenjoyable to many players for a few reasons:
There’s really very little challenge anymore. Once you know your party can engage with the highest CR creatures in the game and that not only is your likelihood of success almost guaranteed, but that the possibility of character death is essentially nonexistent, the sense of challenge is gone, and the therefore the element of excitement is absent which results in the amount of fun being so low that the game becomes boring.
Too many options. By that point most PCs have gained so many features, traits, and feats that they become almost overwhelming to many players.
Not enough decisions to make. By that point a player has been playing their character long enough that they have already figured out what the “best” thing they can have their character do is for almost every situation that comes along most of the time. They no longer really need to think about it much or come to many decisions, they just do the thing. That gets boring to many people after a bit.
Been there, done that. By that point, their PC faces down existential threats on a daily basis. “Oh look, another demon lord… what was the last one’s name…?” When the stuff your character faces on a regular basis can do just about anything, it can start to loose its novelty.
Too much of a good thing. If every day is a sunny day, then WTF is a sunny day…? Being a Tier-4 PC is AWESOME!! It’s like bathing in sunshine all the time. There’s a reason that in some of the most gorgeous places on earth, it rains every afternoon at 3 for 20 minutes. It’s just enough to remind folks how to appreciate the sunshine again.
For players, it’s kinda like punching in the cheat code for godmode into a video game. It can be somewhat entertaining, but it doesn’t last very long. After about 5 minutes it just gets boring for many people. Now, some folks really enjoy playing on godmode, and that’s great. More power to them. But statistically speaking they’re in the minority of people.
in addition to the fact that most players don’t enjoy playing at that level, many DMs don’t enjoy it either. At that point, it can get kinda hard to keep thinking up new 💩 to throw at the party. I mean, once you’ve gone through all the good storylines you could think of that fit together, many of the not so good ones, and have even used a few of the bad ones and feel like you’re literally scraping the bottom of the imagination barrel to find anything that actually fits with everything else that’s happened already and is still plausible… you just want it to end.
So for the vast majority players and DMs it is really, really refreshing and enjoyable to start something new again.
I see what you are saying - I guess it is all a matter of perspective - my perspective is that if you have less tools its way more boring than if you have more tools. At low level there are far less tools. If folks want a simple game I get that as well.
I would note though that we have players down and deaths way more often in my higher level games - I mean what DM wants to true death kill a level 3 character. Its just that in those games you can wish - resurrect - whatever and the player does not need to reroll unless they want to.
I am surprised the lower levels are not just more of a learn the game mechanics situation and would assume MOST games takes place at the top end (Clearly not the case hence my OP)
Then again I took a long break from D&D and played online MMORPG's where the whole point of the game is the progression group so its different.
Great feedback everyone I appreciate the different views.
Once a character has exceeded 16th level, they are so powerful as to be analogous to demigods. Playing at that level is simply seen as unenjoyable to many players for a few reasons:
For players, it’s kinda like punching in the cheat code for godmode into a video game. It can be somewhat entertaining, but it doesn’t last very long. After about 5 minutes it just gets boring for many people. Now, some folks really enjoy playing on godmode, and that’s great. More power to them. But statistically speaking they’re in the minority of people.
in addition to the fact that most players don’t enjoy playing at that level, many DMs don’t enjoy it either. At that point, it can get kinda hard to keep thinking up new 💩 to throw at the party. I mean, once you’ve gone through all the good storylines you could think of that fit together, many of the not so good ones, and have even used a few of the bad ones and feel like you’re literally scraping the bottom of the imagination barrel to find anything that actually fits with everything else that’s happened already and is still plausible… you just want it to end.
So for the vast majority players and DMs it is really, really refreshing and enjoyable to start something new again.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
So I'm making an encounter for my level 5 party and one of their opponents is going to be a CR 13 creature who is in no way overpowered for them. They all have +1 magic items and are mostly melee/ranged (non magic) characters, which makes the creature basically a CR 4 or 5, because 90% is what would make them a CR 13 is irrelevant. The CR 7 creature is deadlier and can potentially end in a tpk.... The CR 13 is just an annoying punching bag to soak up some damage likely couldn't kill a single PC before dying.
I don't know how DMs are supposed to run games when the CR rating is so bad once special abilities get involved.
I'm curious what monster; maybe rakshasa? I have no idea why that is CR 13 to start with, there's no way I can make the math work for anything close to that CR. In any case, trick monsters are always a problem from a difficulty perspective, and that's not really avoidable.
Probably because the way a rakshasa should really be used is not the way most campaigns go. It's a social/intrigue monster, not something that should ever be standing and fighting.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
CR is fundamentally about measuring how dangerous it is when standing and fighting, but as a social/intrigue monster... is it really significantly more of a threat than a CR 4 incubus?
It's got more tricks than an incubus brings to the table, starting with its Limited Magic Immunity, but I agree that it's not CR 13 more.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I see what you are saying - I guess it is all a matter of perspective - my perspective is that if you have less tools its way more boring than if you have more tools. At low level there are far less tools. If folks want a simple game I get that as well.
I would note though that we have players down and deaths way more often in my higher level games - I mean what DM wants to true death kill a level 3 character. Its just that in those games you can wish - resurrect - whatever and the player does not need to reroll unless they want to.
I am surprised the lower levels are not just more of a learn the game mechanics situation and would assume MOST games takes place at the top end (Clearly not the case hence my OP)
Then again I took a long break from D&D and played online MMORPG's where the whole point of the game is the progression group so its different.
Great feedback everyone I appreciate the different views.