I have a player who wants to play a (warforged) berserker, but we're both concerned by the level of exhaustion a frenzy gives. It lasts till a short rest, so he could have disadvantage on ability checks for half a dungeon! Is there a balanced way to reduce this period?
You could always homebrew a magic item that allows him to once (or twice, if you are generous) a day remove a level of exhaustion. You could flavor it as a coffee, a jar that makes a potent enough tea to accomplish this once or twice a day, maybe some kind of a magic root spawns a leaf that can be chewed once or twice a day, or something similar. This would still force the player to consider the importance of when to use frenzy, but gives them an option for that moment that they thought that they needed the boost but realized something else was coming later.
Or you could have them roll a die of your choice, on the natural max, they push through the effects of exhaustion (lose the level of exhaustion). This effect can happen once per short rest. Normally, I would call this second wind, but considering the fighter ability already named that, you could just homebrew it onto the end of Frenzy.
Cantrips cannot be cast at higher levels under normal circumstances. But since you have a warforged character, you might consider allowing mending to be cast as a level 1 (or level 2?) spell and remove one level of exhaustion from the construct.
This is how I read it too, but sometimes it's hard to gage when a short rest will happen and that does limit berserker quite a bit compared to other barbarians as far as using the 3rd level ability. I guess the trade off is that they have a good high damage window when it's there.
I have a player who wants to play a (warforged) berserker, but we're both concerned by the level of exhaustion a frenzy gives. It lasts till a short rest, so he could have disadvantage on ability checks for half a dungeon! Is there a balanced way to reduce this period?
Exhaustion takes a long rest to recover from so it's even worse than you think. You will find plenty of folks defending the Berserker but it is just bad design. Using the ability just once means the barbarian spends the rest of the day suffering from exhaustion. It never gets better and it is supposedly balanced by an extra attack using a bonus action. Something that can be gained in many different ways (twf, spiritual weapon, martial arts, fighter 11lvl + etc) without suffering any penalty.
See below for how I modified Frenzy. Note that I also modified the other abilities to have more to do with the frenzy so you might want to check out the link. I gave Frenzy some teeth and then removed the disadvantage once the barbarian gains some levels.
Frenzy
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can choose to go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so you gain all the benefits of rage and for the duration of your frenzy you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. Additionally at the start of your frenzy you gain temporary hit points equal to your barbarian level times two and during your frenzy you are not affected by any levels of exhaustion you may have. When your frenzy ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion, any temporary hits points gained are lost and you once again suffer the effects of exhaustion levels.
Beginning at 11th level your frenzy no longer causes you to suffer a level of exhaustion when it ends.
Exhaustion takes a long rest to recover from so it's even worse than you think. You will find plenty of folks defending the Berserker but it is just bad design.
Nah, it's fine. Getting a free attack with a two-handed weapon or while wielding a shield every single round is super strong, and all of the alternatives involve a heavy cost (spell slots, multiclassing, less damage, less AC.)
Having disadvantage on ability checks isn't a big deal for a barbarian unless you're doing a specialized grappling and shoving build, which you wouldn't do with a two-handed weapon or with a weapon-and-shield combo. You're probably not the party's dedicated eyes, face, trap detector or trap disarmer.
I hadn't looked at the specific penalties for exhaustion in a while and having looked at them just now, you're probably right. You will only have 2 rages available until 3rd, which means that you'll only have two frenzies available and will be at worst 12 or 13 speed but probably 15 while leaving for a bit. The 3rd rage kicks in at third, at fifth extra movement kicks in to bump those by 5 and the first fight that you have to deal with disadvantage will probably inspire you to not do that again, at least until means to reduce exhaustion become more readily available. (are their other means?)
Exhaustion takes a long rest to recover from so it's even worse than you think. You will find plenty of folks defending the Berserker but it is just bad design.
Nah, it's fine. Getting a free attack with a two-handed weapon or while wielding a shield every single round is super strong, and all of the alternatives involve a heavy cost (spell slots, multiclassing, less damage, less AC.)
Having disadvantage on ability checks isn't a big deal for a barbarian unless you're doing a specialized grappling and shoving build, which you wouldn't do with a two-handed weapon or with a weapon-and-shield combo. You're probably not the party's dedicated eyes, face, trap detector or trap disarmer.
I couldn't disagree more. Sure a bonus action attack with a weapon is nice but let's compare it to other classes. It's hardly more powerful than a paladin's smite, a ranger with hunter's mark, a fighter using action surge, a rogue using sneak attack or a monk's flurry of blows. In fact, I would say they are all fairly well balanced against one another.
The problem runs into both the drawback, Exhaustion, and how long it lingers. First, the the levels of exhaustion stack which really regulates a berserker to using Frenzy only once a day. Even then disadvantage on all skill checks is pretty hampering. It means failing most surprise checks, climbing, stealth, intimidation, animal handling and whatever else for the rest of the day. Essentially, aside from further combat, your berserker will be a listless puppet watching the other PC's play until the next long rest. And if you get desperate enough to use Frenzy more than once than you are regulated to DAYS of this. And leveling up will not provide any relief. Even if someone in the party gains the ability to cast greater restoration it's a 5th level spell. Not something you want to have to be constantly casting just so your party barbarian can use his class feature.
There is no other class/subclass which has a drawback like a barbarian beserker. No feature with the potential to cripple the character for days at a time. The small bump in damage is simply not worth it.
The problem I see with Frenzy is that it doesn’t work well with any feat that gives you a bonus action. You would want to get Great Weapon Master anyway because of GWM’s other benefits and the fact that you will only be using Frenzy for one encounter a day typically. Polearm Master other benefits would useful too, although all your enemies might be running away from you rather than entering your reach.
Even if they are running away from you, or at least giving you a wide berth, you are still controlling the battlefield by increasing the movement they require to go around you with PAM.
Since you can only reduce one level of exhaustion per long rest and only on a long rest, it does limit your ability to use it. The mention of abilities like action surge, hunters mark, smite, et al. doesn't acknowledge the opportunity cost that those abilities/spells use (typically spell slots, though not always). But it does make a good point that the cost isn't as severe for multiple uses. At low levels, frenzy is probably fine, but it lacks the ability to scale currently. Giving the berserker the ability to frenzy once or twice (perhaps number of rages/3 rounded up for a max of two and refreshing once a day on a short rest for a daily max of 4 or rages/2 rounded down for a max of three) prior to levels of exhaustion hitting could be a good work around. Slaine000's rework might work (can't access it, so I don't know what's said) and other homebrew options to reduce exhaustion could work as well. Of course, Wizards has been hesitant to rework any posted classes/ subclasses, so we probably won't get an official fix outside of a possible magic item.
You could also keep the exhaustion penalty, but remove the bonus action restriction.
"Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make one additional weapon attack when you take the Attack action. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion."
The trade off is that it's part of the Attack action instead of a "free" attack as a bonus action. You can no longer dash then attack, but you still can take 2-3 (depending on level) attacks a round, plus any other bonus action attacks that feats or weapons might grant you.
Frenzy is an option. Don't use it until you are in a tight spot or going against the big bad. Also 3 swings from your polearm > that 1d4 you gain from the feat. Again frenzy isn't a use every rage ability.
Disadvantages on ability checks means nothing. And by the time you hit the 2nd level you should be ready for break from dungeon crawling. If you get to the third level of exhaustion (the one that really screws with barbarians) you have vastly miscalculated your situation and probably deserve the situation you are in.
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I have a player who wants to play a (warforged) berserker, but we're both concerned by the level of exhaustion a frenzy gives. It lasts till a short rest, so he could have disadvantage on ability checks for half a dungeon! Is there a balanced way to reduce this period?
Greater Restoration reduces one level of exhaustion. Also Resurrection lol
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You could always homebrew a magic item that allows him to once (or twice, if you are generous) a day remove a level of exhaustion. You could flavor it as a coffee, a jar that makes a potent enough tea to accomplish this once or twice a day, maybe some kind of a magic root spawns a leaf that can be chewed once or twice a day, or something similar. This would still force the player to consider the importance of when to use frenzy, but gives them an option for that moment that they thought that they needed the boost but realized something else was coming later.
Or you could have them roll a die of your choice, on the natural max, they push through the effects of exhaustion (lose the level of exhaustion). This effect can happen once per short rest. Normally, I would call this second wind, but considering the fighter ability already named that, you could just homebrew it onto the end of Frenzy.
Cantrips cannot be cast at higher levels under normal circumstances. But since you have a warforged character, you might consider allowing mending to be cast as a level 1 (or level 2?) spell and remove one level of exhaustion from the construct.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It seems to me that the solution is to only use frenzy during encounters just before a short rest. Is there something about frenzy that I am missing?
This is how I read it too, but sometimes it's hard to gage when a short rest will happen and that does limit berserker quite a bit compared to other barbarians as far as using the 3rd level ability. I guess the trade off is that they have a good high damage window when it's there.
Exhaustion takes a long rest to recover from so it's even worse than you think. You will find plenty of folks defending the Berserker but it is just bad design. Using the ability just once means the barbarian spends the rest of the day suffering from exhaustion. It never gets better and it is supposedly balanced by an extra attack using a bonus action. Something that can be gained in many different ways (twf, spiritual weapon, martial arts, fighter 11lvl + etc) without suffering any penalty.
I created a replacement subclass for berserker you may find here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/76791-path-of-the-frenzied-berserker
See below for how I modified Frenzy. Note that I also modified the other abilities to have more to do with the frenzy so you might want to check out the link. I gave Frenzy some teeth and then removed the disadvantage once the barbarian gains some levels.
Frenzy
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can choose to go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so you gain all the benefits of rage and for the duration of your frenzy you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. Additionally at the start of your frenzy you gain temporary hit points equal to your barbarian level times two and during your frenzy you are not affected by any levels of exhaustion you may have. When your frenzy ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion, any temporary hits points gained are lost and you once again suffer the effects of exhaustion levels.
Beginning at 11th level your frenzy no longer causes you to suffer a level of exhaustion when it ends.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Thanks, all!
Nah, it's fine. Getting a free attack with a two-handed weapon or while wielding a shield every single round is super strong, and all of the alternatives involve a heavy cost (spell slots, multiclassing, less damage, less AC.)
Having disadvantage on ability checks isn't a big deal for a barbarian unless you're doing a specialized grappling and shoving build, which you wouldn't do with a two-handed weapon or with a weapon-and-shield combo. You're probably not the party's dedicated eyes, face, trap detector or trap disarmer.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I hadn't looked at the specific penalties for exhaustion in a while and having looked at them just now, you're probably right. You will only have 2 rages available until 3rd, which means that you'll only have two frenzies available and will be at worst 12 or 13 speed but probably 15 while leaving for a bit. The 3rd rage kicks in at third, at fifth extra movement kicks in to bump those by 5 and the first fight that you have to deal with disadvantage will probably inspire you to not do that again, at least until means to reduce exhaustion become more readily available. (are their other means?)
I couldn't disagree more. Sure a bonus action attack with a weapon is nice but let's compare it to other classes. It's hardly more powerful than a paladin's smite, a ranger with hunter's mark, a fighter using action surge, a rogue using sneak attack or a monk's flurry of blows. In fact, I would say they are all fairly well balanced against one another.
The problem runs into both the drawback, Exhaustion, and how long it lingers. First, the the levels of exhaustion stack which really regulates a berserker to using Frenzy only once a day. Even then disadvantage on all skill checks is pretty hampering. It means failing most surprise checks, climbing, stealth, intimidation, animal handling and whatever else for the rest of the day. Essentially, aside from further combat, your berserker will be a listless puppet watching the other PC's play until the next long rest. And if you get desperate enough to use Frenzy more than once than you are regulated to DAYS of this. And leveling up will not provide any relief. Even if someone in the party gains the ability to cast greater restoration it's a 5th level spell. Not something you want to have to be constantly casting just so your party barbarian can use his class feature.
There is no other class/subclass which has a drawback like a barbarian beserker. No feature with the potential to cripple the character for days at a time. The small bump in damage is simply not worth it.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
The problem I see with Frenzy is that it doesn’t work well with any feat that gives you a bonus action. You would want to get Great Weapon Master anyway because of GWM’s other benefits and the fact that you will only be using Frenzy for one encounter a day typically. Polearm Master other benefits would useful too, although all your enemies might be running away from you rather than entering your reach.
Even if they are running away from you, or at least giving you a wide berth, you are still controlling the battlefield by increasing the movement they require to go around you with PAM.
Since you can only reduce one level of exhaustion per long rest and only on a long rest, it does limit your ability to use it. The mention of abilities like action surge, hunters mark, smite, et al. doesn't acknowledge the opportunity cost that those abilities/spells use (typically spell slots, though not always). But it does make a good point that the cost isn't as severe for multiple uses. At low levels, frenzy is probably fine, but it lacks the ability to scale currently. Giving the berserker the ability to frenzy once or twice (perhaps number of rages/3 rounded up for a max of two and refreshing once a day on a short rest for a daily max of 4 or rages/2 rounded down for a max of three) prior to levels of exhaustion hitting could be a good work around. Slaine000's rework might work (can't access it, so I don't know what's said) and other homebrew options to reduce exhaustion could work as well. Of course, Wizards has been hesitant to rework any posted classes/ subclasses, so we probably won't get an official fix outside of a possible magic item.
You could also keep the exhaustion penalty, but remove the bonus action restriction.
"Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make one additional weapon attack when you take the Attack action. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion."
The trade off is that it's part of the Attack action instead of a "free" attack as a bonus action. You can no longer dash then attack, but you still can take 2-3 (depending on level) attacks a round, plus any other bonus action attacks that feats or weapons might grant you.
Frenzy is an option. Don't use it until you are in a tight spot or going against the big bad. Also 3 swings from your polearm > that 1d4 you gain from the feat. Again frenzy isn't a use every rage ability.
Disadvantages on ability checks means nothing. And by the time you hit the 2nd level you should be ready for break from dungeon crawling. If you get to the third level of exhaustion (the one that really screws with barbarians) you have vastly miscalculated your situation and probably deserve the situation you are in.