Bladesingers do well in melee so long as they don't get hit. But is their AC really overpowered? It's essentially the same as a barbarian with equivalent Dexterity and Constitution as the bladesingers Dexterity and Intelligence. One difference is the bladesinger can wear light armor or cast mage armor (which uses up a resource). But the barbarian can use a shield which basically makes up the difference. But the barbarians AC bonus applies all the time vs the limited 2 bladesongs per short rest for the bladesinger.
The barbarian has way more hitpoints than the bladesinger and has resistance to most melee damage when raging.
So while the bladesinger can hold his own in melee he isn't really more powerful than a barbarian. But once the bladesinger gets past about 6-7th level he is far more effective using his actions to cast spells that control the battlefield rather than making melee attacks.
If he is an Elf (as the book restricts but as this is a homebrew world you could have waived this) and you rolled 3d6's he should only be able to have a 19 INT at max. That is still pretty amazing but not as insane as what he currently has. The only race that could have 20 INT at level 2 would be the Gnome and even a Forest Gnome would not have two 20s if they started with a 17 and 18 as the highest. It sounds like shenanigans are going on or the player is new and confused. DKKaiser has a point.
But if he was willing to make changes for the sake of the game everything is good.
There is a 2nd level spell that will quite literally make a Bladesinger shut up: Silence.
RAW it can't prevent the Bladesong (though it would probably be thematic if it did) but it will shut down most of their magical options, especially Shield and Blur. At that point the Bladesinger can either join melee combat at roughly the level of a weaker barbarian (less HP, less resistances, equal AC) or play from the backlines outside the silence field as a normal wizard.
If your enemies are smart they might prepare such a spell as defensive measure against spellcasters. Or if your group is in a dungeon there might be a trap Glyph of Warding that casts the silence.
A bunch of smaller enemies ganging up on the Bladesinger for flanking advantage also help getting them into trouble, as do sneak attacks with advantage, since they have really low HP and no way of self-healing.
Grappling and Shoving might work, although the Bladesinger makes their check with advantage... still a grappler with Expertise in athletics might succeed against a Bladesinger with proficiency and advantage.
Strength is likely dumped, so spells like Gust of Wind should be effective as well.
The song also ends if they become incapacitated, so feats like a monk's Stunning Strike can quickly end it, especially if that monk uses three attacks with flanking advantage, one will probably hit.
In what world does a group of Kobolds have a chance against a Bladesinger? They have a +4 to attack. Even with advantage the most they can hit with without a crit is 23 AC. If you did even 5 seconds of reading, you would of realized what you said made no sense. Only crits would hit the Bladesinger, which they would have 10% to do so with advantage. Woopdedoo. That damage would be on average, less than if they were hitting a 16 -18ac target for no criticals. Bladesinger curb stomps this encounter.
Half of them help the other half to grapple the bladesinger and then knock them prone. Now that the mage is not going anywhere, out come the vials of poison and acid and flaming oil. Also, the kobold shaman casts create bonfire on the wizard.
Alternatively, the kobolds run away and come back in ten minutes.
Or the kobolds kill the princess. You did give the players an escort quest, right...?
Tortle has AC 17 due to natural armor. He can't add dexterity to AC. I assume he has a shield and a one-handed weapon, so AC 19. Pretty good AC at level 2. If he has an int of 18, he can add +4 to his AC for 1 minute, twice a day. So AC 23, for 2 minutes a day. Pretty amazing. At 2nd level, he should have 2 1st level slots, giving him shield for part of a turn twice a day (3 times with arcane recovery) -- several seconds a day of AC 28 in a pinch. Natural 20s always hit; wizards are short on HPs... It is not as OP as it seems at first glance, but it is still pretty darn good!
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You can't bladesing and use a shield at the same time. So natural AC for a Tortle Bladesinger would be 17. If he has an 18 intelligence then he could bump up to 21 for 1 minute per each instance of bladesong.
Slightly better AC than what you would typically see from other race Bladesingers. But not by much. And as always Bladesingers are glass cannons. It doesn't take much more than a couple of hits to put them down, especially at level 2.
Anything that saves for half damage will quickly kill them at level 2 -- 2d4+con so 18 max if they some how have a 20 con which would not be possible with the listed stats.
Agnazzars Scorcher, Arms of Hadar, burning hands,
hit him with Bane, he probably won't be able to hit crap and will be able to be ignored by bbeg, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Cause Fear,
My group has 3 characters with high ac, and the monk can temporarily get a 26, doesn't really slow our dm down. Our Monk says she gets be an awesome tank for a short while, but if anything hits her she's down.
I am running my first D&D campaign and ignorantly allowed not only a Blade-singing Elf, but allowed him to have a dragon touched focus for a weapon. He deals a minimum of 12 damage per round, and a maximum of 32 (if he doesn't crit), but averages 20(ish) per hit and gets 2 attacks.
In an average round he deals 40-50 points of damage on his turn, but then he will cast haste on himself and get an extra action which gives him 2 more attacks! He has done 102 points of damage in one round, and he is only level 6! Not to mention an AC of 22 when in Bladesong AND it goes up to 24 in haste, THEN 29 if he casts shield. He uses telekinetic jaunt so he doesn't take any attacks of opportunity and just decimates EVERYTHING I throw at him and leaves their attack range unanswered.
For those that don't know, according to the sourcebook- Tiamat has an AC of 25. So he will have an AC that is higher than a dragon-god, at level 6!
Total BS. I love the added class variations in Tasha's, but this is a TOTALLY broken system.
he will cast haste on himself and get an extra action which gives him 2 more attacks!
The Haste spell should only allow 1 extra attack: "Until the spell ends, the target [...] gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
Also, Haste and Kinetic Jaunt both require concentration, so they can't be used together unless you've house-ruled otherwise.
I am running my first D&D campaign and ignorantly allowed not only a Blade-singing Elf, but allowed him to have a dragon touched focus for a weapon. He deals a minimum of 12 damage per round, and a maximum of 32 (if he doesn't crit), but averages 20(ish) per hit and gets 2 attacks.
In an average round he deals 40-50 points of damage on his turn, but then he will cast haste on himself and get an extra action which gives him 2 more attacks! He has done 102 points of damage in one round, and he is only level 6! Not to mention an AC of 22 when in Bladesong AND it goes up to 24 in haste, THEN 29 if he casts shield. He uses telekinetic jaunt so he doesn't take any attacks of opportunity and just decimates EVERYTHING I throw at him and leaves their attack range unanswered.
For those that don't know, according to the sourcebook- Tiamat has an AC of 25. So he will have an AC that is higher than a dragon-god, at level 6!
Total BS. I love the added class variations in Tasha's, but this is a TOTALLY broken system.
Let's check numbers.
Firstly Dragon-Touched FOcus isn't a weapon. It's an arcane focus. And at level 6 should be the Slumbering version, so it is just a focus that gives bonus to initiative. Anything other than this is your mistake as DM and not indicative of the Bladesinger.
If they're using a focus in one-hand they are using their other for the weapon. Max damage from single handed weapon is 1d10. The average of 1d10 is 5.5 and we round down, so it's 5 + Str/Dex. However, given the high AC we must assume they're using Dex. Max Dex weapons is 1d8. Average 4.5, rounded down, for 4 + dex. Let's say you rolled scores, he got lucky put 18 in Int and 18 in Dex and his +2/+1 was used to bump these. Let's assume then that they used the 4th ASI/Feat to get these to 20 each.
With Extra Attack and using two attacks that would be 1d8 + 5 = average 4 + 5, for 9 per attack. Two attacks is average 18. If they replaced one attack with BB/GFB it would be an additional 1d8, average 4, for average 22. If they use Haste then they get ONE more attack (not two, read the spell they cannot benefit Extra Attack for that Hasted Action and cannot cast a spell with it). That's another 9 average. So, 31 average.
Powerful. Aye. But then if you cast Haste on a Barbarian Beserker wielding a Great Axe, they can do 4 attacks in a round. Great Axe is 1d12, average 6.5 rounded down, so 11 average per attack, +2 rage bonus, so average 13 per attack. x4 attacks (normal, extra, haste, frenzied bonus) that is 52 average damage. Well outclassing the bladesinger. And they can give advantage on every attack they make, halve damage received that's bludgeoning, piercing or slashing and they have advantage on Dex saves. Their AC could also be high, since they can add their Con to it.
So, I'm not seeing why the Bladesinger is "decimating" everything, given their damage output from basic attacks is actually less than any other martial class and doesn't scale. They're on par with a dual-wielding Fighter, but that fighter will eventually get even more attacks and can action surge.
Bladesingers do get good AC. But they suck on Saving Throws and have low HP. Their AC won't help them when an enemy casts something like Earthen Grasp to hold them in place. They'll suck at avoiding grapples. They cannot deal much if flanked. A high AC doesn't protect them from anything except weapon attacks, which are one out of many, many, ways to damage or take out a character.
Also the comparison to Tiamat's AC isn't much. Tiamat lacks impressive AC due to size, their multiattacks, their legendary actions, their high HP, their many options in combat, their legendary resistances, and multiple AoE abilities. The AC is a design to provide the party a remote chance of winning. Because AC isn't that much of an indication how challenging something is.
So while bladesingers are spiffy, they're not as spiffy as you make them out to be. Judging from your post, your problem is you not understanding their limitations and ruling things wrong. That's a DM thing, not a Bladesinger thing.
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I get your points, but I still think it's a bit broken compared to other class variations due to how much extra crap you get at just level 2 (Bonuses to dex, concentration checks, walking speed, and AC). I'm not familiar with every class, but from what I've seen, that is A LOT for a very low level! Also, he can cast spells (buffing or adding damage) while kicking ass, which a hasted barbarian or Fighter cannot.
As for the Tiamat thing, I'm not talking about her prowess, I'm simply making a comparison between a level 6 character and a BBEG boss.
Also, you're assuming you know what weapon I'm talking about- It is a magical double bladed scimitar from Fizbands and adds a +1 to attack and damage, he took a feat that allows him the finesse property for it, so he adds his dex (+5) and it adds another d6 damage die, PLUS he has a magic item that adds another +1 and 1d4 per attack. So: 3d4 +2 +5 + 1d6= 11 minimum damage per hit (he has a +9 to hit), 25 max damage per hit.
Like I said, I'm new to DMing D&D, so I learned from my mistake. However, my point still stands that his AC is so darn high that I can basically never hit him with a normal attack. This forces me to try and find monsters that will make him do saves, but he rolled REALLY well when making his character, so he doesn't have any stat below a 14! Plus, I allowed certain common and uncommon magical items that gives him other bonuses. When I allowed these things, I just said "sure, ok" not realizing how they all worked together. He just took advantage of my lack of knowledge and used it to create a freaking woodchipper of a character that can never get hit!
Also, you're assuming you know what weapon I'm talking about- It is a magical double bladed scimitar from Fizbands and adds a +1 to attack and damage, he took a feat that allows him the finesse property for it, so he adds his dex (+5) and it adds another d6 damage die, PLUS he has a magic item that adds another +1 and 1d4 per attack. So: 3d4 +2 +5 + 1d6= 11 minimum damage per hit (he has a +9 to hit), 25 max damage per hit.
Maybe I missed something, but a Dragon Touched Focus is supposed to be a wonderous item (per Fizban's - I'll grant that you as DM can obviously rule otherwise), and a Double Bladed Scimitar is a two handed weapon. Even a Bladesinger needs to have one hand free to cast a spell, or hold a spell focus. The main rub for a Bladesinger is that they are constrained to proficiency in a single one-handed weapon, not a Double Scim. Also, not immediately reminded of a feat that grants a character the finesse property. Finesse is supposed to be a weapon property, not something applied to the PC.
Like I said, I'm new to DMing D&D, so I learned from my mistake. However, my point still stands that his AC is so darn high that I can basically never hit him with a normal attack. This forces me to try and find monsters that will make him do saves, but he rolled REALLY well when making his character, so he doesn't have any stat below a 14! Plus, I allowed certain common and uncommon magical items that gives him other bonuses. When I allowed these things, I just said "sure, ok" not realizing how they all worked together. He just took advantage of my lack of knowledge and used it to create a freaking woodchipper of a character that can never get hit!
Understanding and learning from our mistakes is how we improve. Understanding where the problem really lies is valuable information, especially in trying to sort out what happened, and learn from it. There are plenty of monsters that will hit your PC, or make them fail a save. Please do not try to solve this problem by creating an arms race. All you'll do is kill off a PC, and never address the root issue. The Class is not what is broken. Your player is. You know that, and admit it. I absolutely agree that, as assembled, your described PC is OP and brokey. Now is the time for the uncomfortable conversation with your player to unscrew all of what is wrong with that PC and get your player on-board with not trying to cheese the game.
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This is why i'm against rolling for stats. Our campaign has the same, someone rolled an 18,17,16 etc lowest was a 10. Another person rolled and their highest stat was 13. Others went point buy. So now we have 1 player starting with a 20 and 18 in their two best stats, one player with a 15 and 13 in their two best stats, and the rest with a 17 and 15 in two best stats. Meaning 1 person is already capped at lvl 1, one person won't get a 20 stat cap until lvl 12 and the rest of us won't get a 20 stat cap until lvl 8. How is this a fun game? Point buy or Standard Array (Standard Array +1 if you want a bit of a nice bump) are perfect and make a balanced party. But no, now we have to have a whole campaign of one guy feeling overpowered, one person feeling completely inferior and the rest of us just feeling mediocre.
I get your points, but I still think it's a bit broken compared to other class variations due to how much extra crap you get at just level 2 (Bonuses to dex, concentration checks, walking speed, and AC). I'm not familiar with every class, but from what I've seen, that is A LOT for a very low level! Also, he can cast spells (buffing or adding damage) while kicking ass, which a hasted barbarian or Fighter cannot.
As for the Tiamat thing, I'm not talking about her prowess, I'm simply making a comparison between a level 6 character and a BBEG boss.
Also, you're assuming you know what weapon I'm talking about- It is a magical double bladed scimitar from Fizbands and adds a +1 to attack and damage, he took a feat that allows him the finesse property for it, so he adds his dex (+5) and it adds another d6 damage die, PLUS he has a magic item that adds another +1 and 1d4 per attack. So: 3d4 +2 +5 + 1d6= 11 minimum damage per hit (he has a +9 to hit), 25 max damage per hit.
Like I said, I'm new to DMing D&D, so I learned from my mistake. However, my point still stands that his AC is so darn high that I can basically never hit him with a normal attack. This forces me to try and find monsters that will make him do saves, but he rolled REALLY well when making his character, so he doesn't have any stat below a 14! Plus, I allowed certain common and uncommon magical items that gives him other bonuses. When I allowed these things, I just said "sure, ok" not realizing how they all worked together. He just took advantage of my lack of knowledge and used it to create a freaking woodchipper of a character that can never get hit!
Lol ... just realized that this thread is from 2019, though the recent post is also saying bladesinger is OP.
The problem is not the bladesinger :)
I'm impressed that the bladesinger without bladesong does so well ...
" It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. "
Bladesong ends if you make an attack with a two handed weapon and last I looked the double bladed scimitar needs two hands. So they can't use the scimitar and bladesong at the same time. If the DM allows it ... its on the DM.
The Revenant Blade feat is from Eberron and allows the Double Bladed scimitar to be used with finesse (the double bladed scimitar is also from Eberron - it is the signature weapon of the Valenar elves).
"A double-bladed scimitar is a martial weapon, weighing 6 pounds and dealing 2d4 slashing damage on a hit. It has the two-handed property and the following special property: If you attack with a double-bladed scimitar as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action immediately after to make a melee attack with it. This attack deals 1d4 slashing damage on a hit, instead of 2d4."
The magic item appears to be a Stirring Dragon's Wrath weapon:
"Stirring (Rare). The Stirring weapon has the Slumbering property. In addition, you gain a + 1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made using the weapon. On a hit, the weapon deals an extra 1d6 damage of the type dealt by the dragon's breath weapon"
It is a +1 weapon with an additional d6 damage - it is a rare. In addition, the DM allowed it for a player using a weapon with a built in bonus action attack that also includes the dex modifier (which they can't actually use well as a bladesinger due to the 2-handed constraints of a double bladed scimitar).
The DM also gave the character another magic item with a +1 and additional 1d4 damage.
Average damage/attack is 2d4 +1+d4 +1+d6 +5 = 17 ... 10 of that is due to the weapon (I think its the highest damage finesse melee weapon in the game but I could be wrong) and 20 dex stat. The extra 7 (70% more damage) is due to the magic items bestowed by the DM. The bonus action attack allowed with the weapon is 14.5 since it is a d4 less.
As mentioned, Haste gives only ONE extra attack when the attack action is taken. "attack action (one attack only)" not two - so that is also up to the DM.
The character is level 6 with 20 dex. Using point buy, the only way that happens is with a custom lineage character and in that case the maximum int is 15 - or only a +2 bonus from bladesinging.
-----------
The problem here isn't the bladesinger class - it is the double bladed scimitar, the combination of magic items that substantially increases damage, the maxed stats at level 6, missing some rules like Haste being limited to one action and bladesong ending as soon as an attack is made with a two handed weapon.
Honestly, it either sounds like a player, familiar with the game, building as optimized a character as they can while bending the rules a bit (did the player mention that bladesong would end as soon as they make an attack with the scimitar? Did the player know that or not?), and taking advantage of a DM somewhat less experienced with the game OR an inexperienced DM allowing for maxed stats and also giving out an overpowered set of magic items to a character and then letting them use it.
If the other players are also a bit less experienced and aren't optimizing then the bladesinger is going to stand out even more and seem overpowered because of the items and favorable rulings - not due to the class itself.
Bladsinging wizards have high AC (especially with maxed stats), but low hit points. They ARE harder to hit but crits will hit anyway. Unless the character also has an 18-20 constitution or they have a bonus feat at level 1 and picked up tough - the wizard should be vulnerable to many effects especially AoE spells since they will do 1/2 damage even on a failed save. A level 6 wizard with typical 14 con should have about 38 hit points and about a 50/50 chance to fail a dex save on a fireball that will take more than half their hit points on average. Actually the wizard should have worse wisdom saves than con saves even with proficiency unless they also have a high wisdom somehow.
This is why i'm against rolling for stats. Our campaign has the same, someone rolled an 18,17,16 etc lowest was a 10. Another person rolled and their highest stat was 13. Others went point buy. So now we have 1 player starting with a 20 and 18 in their two best stats, one player with a 15 and 13 in their two best stats, and the rest with a 17 and 15 in two best stats. Meaning 1 person is already capped at lvl 1, one person won't get a 20 stat cap until lvl 12 and the rest of us won't get a 20 stat cap until lvl 8. How is this a fun game? Point buy or Standard Array (Standard Array +1 if you want a bit of a nice bump) are perfect and make a balanced party. But no, now we have to have a whole campaign of one guy feeling overpowered, one person feeling completely inferior and the rest of us just feeling mediocre.
Sounds like a discussion for your DM. Probably outside the scope of this conversation.
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Bladesingers do well in melee so long as they don't get hit. But is their AC really overpowered? It's essentially the same as a barbarian with equivalent Dexterity and Constitution as the bladesingers Dexterity and Intelligence. One difference is the bladesinger can wear light armor or cast mage armor (which uses up a resource). But the barbarian can use a shield which basically makes up the difference. But the barbarians AC bonus applies all the time vs the limited 2 bladesongs per short rest for the bladesinger.
The barbarian has way more hitpoints than the bladesinger and has resistance to most melee damage when raging.
So while the bladesinger can hold his own in melee he isn't really more powerful than a barbarian. But once the bladesinger gets past about 6-7th level he is far more effective using his actions to cast spells that control the battlefield rather than making melee attacks.
There is a 2nd level spell that will quite literally make a Bladesinger shut up: Silence.
RAW it can't prevent the Bladesong (though it would probably be thematic if it did) but it will shut down most of their magical options, especially Shield and Blur. At that point the Bladesinger can either join melee combat at roughly the level of a weaker barbarian (less HP, less resistances, equal AC) or play from the backlines outside the silence field as a normal wizard.
If your enemies are smart they might prepare such a spell as defensive measure against spellcasters. Or if your group is in a dungeon there might be a trap Glyph of Warding that casts the silence.
A bunch of smaller enemies ganging up on the Bladesinger for flanking advantage also help getting them into trouble, as do sneak attacks with advantage, since they have really low HP and no way of self-healing.
Grappling and Shoving might work, although the Bladesinger makes their check with advantage... still a grappler with Expertise in athletics might succeed against a Bladesinger with proficiency and advantage.
Strength is likely dumped, so spells like Gust of Wind should be effective as well.
The song also ends if they become incapacitated, so feats like a monk's Stunning Strike can quickly end it, especially if that monk uses three attacks with flanking advantage, one will probably hit.
There’s a joke in there somewhere, probably several.... I’m not gonna actually make one, but it’s there.
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Half of them help the other half to grapple the bladesinger and then knock them prone. Now that the mage is not going anywhere, out come the vials of poison and acid and flaming oil. Also, the kobold shaman casts create bonfire on the wizard.
Alternatively, the kobolds run away and come back in ten minutes.
Or the kobolds kill the princess. You did give the players an escort quest, right...?
Tortle has AC 17 due to natural armor. He can't add dexterity to AC. I assume he has a shield and a one-handed weapon, so AC 19. Pretty good AC at level 2. If he has an int of 18, he can add +4 to his AC for 1 minute, twice a day. So AC 23, for 2 minutes a day. Pretty amazing. At 2nd level, he should have 2 1st level slots, giving him shield for part of a turn twice a day (3 times with arcane recovery) -- several seconds a day of AC 28 in a pinch. Natural 20s always hit; wizards are short on HPs... It is not as OP as it seems at first glance, but it is still pretty darn good!
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You can't bladesing and use a shield at the same time. So natural AC for a Tortle Bladesinger would be 17. If he has an 18 intelligence then he could bump up to 21 for 1 minute per each instance of bladesong.
Slightly better AC than what you would typically see from other race Bladesingers. But not by much. And as always Bladesingers are glass cannons. It doesn't take much more than a couple of hits to put them down, especially at level 2.
Bladesinger has advantage on acrobatics checks. The grapple will most likely fail.
Anything that saves for half damage will quickly kill them at level 2 -- 2d4+con so 18 max if they some how have a 20 con which would not be possible with the listed stats.
Agnazzars Scorcher, Arms of Hadar, burning hands,
hit him with Bane, he probably won't be able to hit crap and will be able to be ignored by bbeg, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Cause Fear,
My group has 3 characters with high ac, and the monk can temporarily get a 26, doesn't really slow our dm down. Our Monk says she gets be an awesome tank for a short while, but if anything hits her she's down.
Couldn't agree with you more sir!
I am running my first D&D campaign and ignorantly allowed not only a Blade-singing Elf, but allowed him to have a dragon touched focus for a weapon. He deals a minimum of 12 damage per round, and a maximum of 32 (if he doesn't crit), but averages 20(ish) per hit and gets 2 attacks.
In an average round he deals 40-50 points of damage on his turn, but then he will cast haste on himself and get an extra action which gives him 2 more attacks! He has done 102 points of damage in one round, and he is only level 6! Not to mention an AC of 22 when in Bladesong AND it goes up to 24 in haste, THEN 29 if he casts shield. He uses telekinetic jaunt so he doesn't take any attacks of opportunity and just decimates EVERYTHING I throw at him and leaves their attack range unanswered.
For those that don't know, according to the sourcebook- Tiamat has an AC of 25. So he will have an AC that is higher than a dragon-god, at level 6!
Total BS. I love the added class variations in Tasha's, but this is a TOTALLY broken system.
Haste explicitly only allows one more weapon attack.
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The Haste spell should only allow 1 extra attack: "Until the spell ends, the target [...] gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
Also, Haste and Kinetic Jaunt both require concentration, so they can't be used together unless you've house-ruled otherwise.
Let's check numbers.
Firstly Dragon-Touched FOcus isn't a weapon. It's an arcane focus. And at level 6 should be the Slumbering version, so it is just a focus that gives bonus to initiative. Anything other than this is your mistake as DM and not indicative of the Bladesinger.
If they're using a focus in one-hand they are using their other for the weapon. Max damage from single handed weapon is 1d10. The average of 1d10 is 5.5 and we round down, so it's 5 + Str/Dex. However, given the high AC we must assume they're using Dex. Max Dex weapons is 1d8. Average 4.5, rounded down, for 4 + dex. Let's say you rolled scores, he got lucky put 18 in Int and 18 in Dex and his +2/+1 was used to bump these. Let's assume then that they used the 4th ASI/Feat to get these to 20 each.
With Extra Attack and using two attacks that would be 1d8 + 5 = average 4 + 5, for 9 per attack. Two attacks is average 18. If they replaced one attack with BB/GFB it would be an additional 1d8, average 4, for average 22. If they use Haste then they get ONE more attack (not two, read the spell they cannot benefit Extra Attack for that Hasted Action and cannot cast a spell with it). That's another 9 average. So, 31 average.
Powerful. Aye. But then if you cast Haste on a Barbarian Beserker wielding a Great Axe, they can do 4 attacks in a round. Great Axe is 1d12, average 6.5 rounded down, so 11 average per attack, +2 rage bonus, so average 13 per attack. x4 attacks (normal, extra, haste, frenzied bonus) that is 52 average damage. Well outclassing the bladesinger. And they can give advantage on every attack they make, halve damage received that's bludgeoning, piercing or slashing and they have advantage on Dex saves. Their AC could also be high, since they can add their Con to it.
So, I'm not seeing why the Bladesinger is "decimating" everything, given their damage output from basic attacks is actually less than any other martial class and doesn't scale. They're on par with a dual-wielding Fighter, but that fighter will eventually get even more attacks and can action surge.
Bladesingers do get good AC. But they suck on Saving Throws and have low HP. Their AC won't help them when an enemy casts something like Earthen Grasp to hold them in place. They'll suck at avoiding grapples. They cannot deal much if flanked. A high AC doesn't protect them from anything except weapon attacks, which are one out of many, many, ways to damage or take out a character.
Also the comparison to Tiamat's AC isn't much. Tiamat lacks impressive AC due to size, their multiattacks, their legendary actions, their high HP, their many options in combat, their legendary resistances, and multiple AoE abilities. The AC is a design to provide the party a remote chance of winning. Because AC isn't that much of an indication how challenging something is.
So while bladesingers are spiffy, they're not as spiffy as you make them out to be. Judging from your post, your problem is you not understanding their limitations and ruling things wrong. That's a DM thing, not a Bladesinger thing.
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Mountain dwarf grants a +2 to both strength and constitution. Using Tasha's flexible scores that's two +2 bonuses to any stats.
Yes.
... And?
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I get your points, but I still think it's a bit broken compared to other class variations due to how much extra crap you get at just level 2 (Bonuses to dex, concentration checks, walking speed, and AC). I'm not familiar with every class, but from what I've seen, that is A LOT for a very low level! Also, he can cast spells (buffing or adding damage) while kicking ass, which a hasted barbarian or Fighter cannot.
As for the Tiamat thing, I'm not talking about her prowess, I'm simply making a comparison between a level 6 character and a BBEG boss.
Also, you're assuming you know what weapon I'm talking about- It is a magical double bladed scimitar from Fizbands and adds a +1 to attack and damage, he took a feat that allows him the finesse property for it, so he adds his dex (+5) and it adds another d6 damage die, PLUS he has a magic item that adds another +1 and 1d4 per attack. So: 3d4 +2 +5 + 1d6= 11 minimum damage per hit (he has a +9 to hit), 25 max damage per hit.
Like I said, I'm new to DMing D&D, so I learned from my mistake. However, my point still stands that his AC is so darn high that I can basically never hit him with a normal attack. This forces me to try and find monsters that will make him do saves, but he rolled REALLY well when making his character, so he doesn't have any stat below a 14! Plus, I allowed certain common and uncommon magical items that gives him other bonuses. When I allowed these things, I just said "sure, ok" not realizing how they all worked together. He just took advantage of my lack of knowledge and used it to create a freaking woodchipper of a character that can never get hit!
Maybe I missed something, but a Dragon Touched Focus is supposed to be a wonderous item (per Fizban's - I'll grant that you as DM can obviously rule otherwise), and a Double Bladed Scimitar is a two handed weapon. Even a Bladesinger needs to have one hand free to cast a spell, or hold a spell focus. The main rub for a Bladesinger is that they are constrained to proficiency in a single one-handed weapon, not a Double Scim. Also, not immediately reminded of a feat that grants a character the finesse property. Finesse is supposed to be a weapon property, not something applied to the PC.
Understanding and learning from our mistakes is how we improve. Understanding where the problem really lies is valuable information, especially in trying to sort out what happened, and learn from it. There are plenty of monsters that will hit your PC, or make them fail a save. Please do not try to solve this problem by creating an arms race. All you'll do is kill off a PC, and never address the root issue. The Class is not what is broken. Your player is. You know that, and admit it. I absolutely agree that, as assembled, your described PC is OP and brokey. Now is the time for the uncomfortable conversation with your player to unscrew all of what is wrong with that PC and get your player on-board with not trying to cheese the game.
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This is why i'm against rolling for stats. Our campaign has the same, someone rolled an 18,17,16 etc lowest was a 10. Another person rolled and their highest stat was 13. Others went point buy. So now we have 1 player starting with a 20 and 18 in their two best stats, one player with a 15 and 13 in their two best stats, and the rest with a 17 and 15 in two best stats. Meaning 1 person is already capped at lvl 1, one person won't get a 20 stat cap until lvl 12 and the rest of us won't get a 20 stat cap until lvl 8. How is this a fun game? Point buy or Standard Array (Standard Array +1 if you want a bit of a nice bump) are perfect and make a balanced party. But no, now we have to have a whole campaign of one guy feeling overpowered, one person feeling completely inferior and the rest of us just feeling mediocre.
Lol ... just realized that this thread is from 2019, though the recent post is also saying bladesinger is OP.
The problem is not the bladesinger :)
I'm impressed that the bladesinger without bladesong does so well ...
" It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. "
Bladesong ends if you make an attack with a two handed weapon and last I looked the double bladed scimitar needs two hands. So they can't use the scimitar and bladesong at the same time. If the DM allows it ... its on the DM.
The Revenant Blade feat is from Eberron and allows the Double Bladed scimitar to be used with finesse (the double bladed scimitar is also from Eberron - it is the signature weapon of the Valenar elves).
"A double-bladed scimitar is a martial weapon, weighing 6 pounds and dealing 2d4 slashing damage on a hit. It has the two-handed property and the following special property:
If you attack with a double-bladed scimitar as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action immediately after to make a melee attack with it. This attack deals 1d4 slashing damage on a hit, instead of 2d4."
The magic item appears to be a Stirring Dragon's Wrath weapon:
"Stirring (Rare). The Stirring weapon has the Slumbering property. In addition, you gain a + 1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made using the weapon. On a hit, the weapon deals an extra 1d6 damage of the type dealt by the dragon's breath weapon"
It is a +1 weapon with an additional d6 damage - it is a rare. In addition, the DM allowed it for a player using a weapon with a built in bonus action attack that also includes the dex modifier (which they can't actually use well as a bladesinger due to the 2-handed constraints of a double bladed scimitar).
The DM also gave the character another magic item with a +1 and additional 1d4 damage.
Average damage/attack is 2d4 +1+d4 +1+d6 +5 = 17 ... 10 of that is due to the weapon (I think its the highest damage finesse melee weapon in the game but I could be wrong) and 20 dex stat. The extra 7 (70% more damage) is due to the magic items bestowed by the DM. The bonus action attack allowed with the weapon is 14.5 since it is a d4 less.
As mentioned, Haste gives only ONE extra attack when the attack action is taken. "attack action (one attack only)" not two - so that is also up to the DM.
The character is level 6 with 20 dex. Using point buy, the only way that happens is with a custom lineage character and in that case the maximum int is 15 - or only a +2 bonus from bladesinging.
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The problem here isn't the bladesinger class - it is the double bladed scimitar, the combination of magic items that substantially increases damage, the maxed stats at level 6, missing some rules like Haste being limited to one action and bladesong ending as soon as an attack is made with a two handed weapon.
Honestly, it either sounds like a player, familiar with the game, building as optimized a character as they can while bending the rules a bit (did the player mention that bladesong would end as soon as they make an attack with the scimitar? Did the player know that or not?), and taking advantage of a DM somewhat less experienced with the game OR an inexperienced DM allowing for maxed stats and also giving out an overpowered set of magic items to a character and then letting them use it.
If the other players are also a bit less experienced and aren't optimizing then the bladesinger is going to stand out even more and seem overpowered because of the items and favorable rulings - not due to the class itself.
Bladsinging wizards have high AC (especially with maxed stats), but low hit points. They ARE harder to hit but crits will hit anyway. Unless the character also has an 18-20 constitution or they have a bonus feat at level 1 and picked up tough - the wizard should be vulnerable to many effects especially AoE spells since they will do 1/2 damage even on a failed save. A level 6 wizard with typical 14 con should have about 38 hit points and about a 50/50 chance to fail a dex save on a fireball that will take more than half their hit points on average. Actually the wizard should have worse wisdom saves than con saves even with proficiency unless they also have a high wisdom somehow.
Sounds like a discussion for your DM. Probably outside the scope of this conversation.
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