Quote from Chequers >>

Quote from BrokenDM >>

 As a DM you should be rolling behind a screen or in a way that the players cannot see your rolls. 

 
That's not true. While common practice is to hide rolls, keeping things hidden is just another option for a DM to create tension, by being able to adjust things accordingly. Also known as 'fudging it'.

I know of a few DMs that roll in the open, not just for their own enjoyment of 'rolling' with the consequences, but because they never want their players to feel anything is fudged. That just the way they play, and I applaud their skill in being able to manage it.

I have never known a DM not to roll behind a screen or hidden in all my years of playing. I mean if you want to roll in the open the go for it, there is nothing wrong with it, but for me its not going to happen. As a DM making adjustments to your rolls is just something we can do for various reasons. Not saying that every roll is or should be fudged but we have that right and for good reason. 

It's just a matter of personal playing style, Broke.  You do you, we'll do us, neither way is better, just different.

The only rolls I do in secret are ones that I feel absolutely need to be.

I don’t disagree - I keep my rolls hidden as a DM. But to suggest all DMs should do so is wrong. 

I keep my rolls behind the screen for the sake of the party, like if they are all low level and I roll a critical hit. I hate killing players off, but I've done it. The point is: it's just personal style, and everyone can do it differently. For instance, my friend/my first DM barely ever rolled, he just decided what would happen on his end, which I liked enough and think he got from his dad who taught him to play D&D. Eventually he got a DM screen and the Monster Manual and rolled a bit more often.

I DM in one campaign, and am a player in two others. The DM in the one group almost never rolls anything and only asks his players to roll some of the time, like in combat. I think he only rolls in combat so we see him roll dice, but I strongly suspect he pays absolutely no attention to them whatsoever. There are times we go weeks without actually needing dice and nobody seems to mind. In my campaign I stand/walk around and ask my players to roll for me lots of the times, there is no question as to fudged rolls then. I'm in another campaign where the DM practically lives behind the screen and I think she rolls just to decide if the NPCs need to pee. Nobody minds that either. In my experience, as long as the story is good and everyone is having fun then nobody even pays that much attention to the actual mechanics as much. 

Anywhoo, back to the topic at hand. I suggest calling the problem player out in such a way so that it presents like you assume they are not cheating (like a legitimate, honest mistake) so they have a polite out and can save face. Call 'em out on it once or twice and they should nock that crap off just so you don't point out their "mistakes" anymore. 

Calling out the player and watching his rolls more closely might be the best option. One of my favorites for dealing with this type of player is to record his rolls and use them for the bad guys roll that involve him. Just record them in order and use them in same order. After a few games the player might ask what's up. Let him know what you have been doing and ask him to roll out in the open from then on. 

There's only one feasible solution; trial by combat.

The best way to catch a FUDGER is this. When you ask for attack rolls and the sort there is nothing you can do. But when you switch to percentile dice the landscape of your game changes a little. You may ask the player to roll percentile. Now they have no idea if they are supposed to roll HIGH or LOW. Before the roll you determine what you are looking for. Example:

The party is in a remote forest. They are off the main road of travel. There is about a 70 percent chance they wont be bothered. So if your player rolls anything above a 30% on his watch your group is fine.

But say in a city where the travelers are being hunted by royal guard there is a 70% chance they will be found. So now the player needs to roll below a 30% to stay safe.

There is another way to train this player to just go with the dice. Sometimes I ask a player to roll a D20. Then tell me the result. They have no idea what i am looking for. BUT I will then ask what thier intelegence or wisdom score is. If the roll that they reported is lower than their intelligence it means that their PASSIVE intellect has revealed something useful. The higher your score the easier it is to roll under therefore you have a higher chance of remembering something you read in a book or have the wisdom to decide what to do next. 

Example:

DM- Roll a D20" 

player-"18"

DM- "What is your wisdom stat?"

Player-"16"

DM-"A little voice in your head tells you that if you try and cast charm on this elf it will work. You are compelled to give it a try."

(this example is very obvious. Elves are resistant to charm spells but I wanted you to see that the voice was wrong because the player rolled higher than his natural wisdom)

A similar situation would be that the player rolls the dice and reports a low number and you give him a very useful piece of information as a reward for his honesty.

I've been playing this game since 1992. You don't want to hurt people's feelings and you don't want to give people stress when they get caught cheating. So instead sometimes its better to show your players that the game is a lot more fun when its played by the rules. I myself write down the SAVE DC before my players roll so that they know im not fudging either. I also roll my dice openly. This sets an example and even though it sucks to roll really badly when you are trying to beat the crap out of the tank in the group that just wont die, it shows that you play by the rules, even though you are technically GOD, so they should too. 

The other option is to switch to virtual dice rolls. We use Roll20 and the dice rolls are publicly visible in the chat so there can be no doubt. 

Quote from epicleveldnd >>

you don't want to give people stress when they get caught cheating. 

They are giving the rest of the table stress by cheating.

If they are adults then definitely give THEM stress by calling out their cheating!

If they are children, then they need a gentler touch to help them understand that cheating is allowed in any games.

break'th the curse of this walking dead thread oh SamMc93 and tell us what you did and how it went back in 2019... did you confront, ignore or open roll tray did make'th?

Quote from BrokenDM >>

Quote from FTT >>

My group has everyone rolling in the open. Even I as the DM openly roll. Admittedly this has made some awkward scenarios such a patrolling guard being more of a threat than a BBEG,. But I get around that through narrative play and imposing unfavorable situations for characters such as getting knocked back, prone, loosing their flanking advantage, a strike turning into a grapple. Just something to keep a threat real when my bad guy I've been setting up decides to roll below 10 for multiple rounds in succession.

 

Quote from FTT >>

My group has everyone rolling in the open. Even I as the DM openly roll. Admittedly this has made some awkward scenarios such a patrolling guard being more of a threat than a BBEG,. But I get around that through narrative play and imposing unfavorable situations for characters such as getting knocked back, prone, loosing their flanking advantage, a strike turning into a grapple. Just something to keep a threat real when my bad guy I've been setting up decides to roll below 10 for multiple rounds in succession.

 As a DM you should be rolling behind a screen or in a way that the players cannot see your rolls. 

 I disagree totally as a dm all my combat rolls are open handed, all damage rolls are open as well, and 90% of other rolls happen in front of the table. They don’t always know why I am rolling and sometimes I will go and roll a dice, get a nat 20 for nothing and watch the table look at each other wondering was i rolling stealth, perception, some other thing. It depends on your players my players never meta dice rolls so never have there characters react in a way driven by the roll. It also makes for a really fun experience as they are watch if a monster has hurt them or missed. 

Quote from JustinDarkness >>

break'th the curse of this walking dead thread oh SamMc93 and tell us what you did and how it went back in 2019... did you confront, ignore or open roll tray did make'th?

Not gonna lie completely forgot I made this after I got some advise from you all back then.

In the end I pulled him aside after one session and just told him straight. He was a bit defensive but didn't deny it either. I asked him if there was a reason as to why he felt the need to fudge his rolls, if he wasn't enjoying the campaign, his character or anything like that so I could maybe do something to help him find some enjoyment in the game again.

He did ending up asking if he could switch his archetype as he didn't feel like he was getting anything out of his current one which I was happy to allow. 

Since then I haven't had any problems with him and none of my other players have said anything more of it. He is still in the campaign to this day in fact it will be five years running the campaign next month. 

Thank you all for your suggestions and advise guess it does help to get outside opinions it is much appreciated.

Ah Super glad it turned out so well for you all and thank you for the follow up... the curse be lifted ;) 

Congrats!

That is an excellent solution. 

Talking is almost always the best way to go. And now we see one of the reasons a player might "cheat" or fudge rolls -- not having fun. The player just needed to switch out some of his character options and once happy, felt no reason to cheat.

Players should not be able to fudge their rolls. DMs should when absolutely necessary, but players should never. Not only does it unbalance the party and the game, but it removes a good portion of fun of D&D. After all, you never see a movie where the heroes come up with a plan and it all works out perfectly. Something somewhere always goes wrong. Then they improvise, and come up with a much more fun and enjoyable story. A player who fudges their rolls ends up with a perfect character, which is in the end, no fun to play. 

I realize that this isn't necessarily advice, more of a statement.

But I'm glad it worked out :)

If you allow it to go on, you'll feel resentment and so will the other players.

Players should always be rolling dice in the open where everyone can see them. It shouldn't be possible to roll dice in secret.

Tell everyone at the start of your next session that all player dice rolls need to be seen by at least 2 players, or the roll doesn't count. What will happen is that the player will get the message without needing to be accused of anything, and you'll all forget about the new "rule" by the end of the session.

Tell everyone at the start of your next session that all player dice rolls need to be seen by at least 2 players, or the roll doesn't count. What will happen is that the player will get the message without needing to be accused of anything, and you'll all forget about the new "rule" by the end of the session.

Well, some of us actually trust our players.

I don't need to "see the rolls" or make sure there are witnesses. And the story above had a happy ending - it turned out there was a reason for the cheating, and the DM was able to help the player fix that reason and the cheating went away.