A monster’s alignment provides a clue to its disposition and how it behaves in a roleplaying or combat situation. For example, a chaotic evil monster might be difficult to reason with and might attack characters on sight, whereas a neutral monster might be willing to negotiate. See the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of the different alignments.
The alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s alignment to suit the needs of your campaign. If you want a good-aligned green dragon or an evil storm giant, there’s nothing stopping you.
Some creatures can have any alignment. In other words, you choose the monster’s alignment. Some monster’s alignment entry indicates a tendency or aversion toward law, chaos, good, or evil. For example, a berserker can be any chaotic alignment (chaotic good, chaotic neutral, or chaotic evil), as befits its wild nature.
Many creatures of low intelligence have no comprehension of law or chaos, good or evil. They don’t make moral or ethical choices, but rather act on instinct. These creatures are unaligned, which means they don’t have an alignment.
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A monster’s alignment provides a clue to its disposition and how it behaves in a roleplaying or combat situation. For example, a chaotic evil monster might be difficult to reason with and might attack characters on sight, whereas a neutral monster might be willing to negotiate. See the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of the different alignments.
The alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s alignment to suit the needs of your campaign. If you want a good-aligned green dragon or an evil storm giant, there’s nothing stopping you.
Some creatures can have any alignment. In other words, you choose the monster’s alignment. Some monster’s alignment entry indicates a tendency or aversion toward law, chaos, good, or evil. For example, a berserker can be any chaotic alignment (chaotic good, chaotic neutral, or chaotic evil), as befits its wild nature.
Many creatures of low intelligence have no comprehension of law or chaos, good or evil. They don’t make moral or ethical choices, but rather act on instinct. These creatures are unaligned, which means they don’t have an alignment.
You missed what I posted earlier, and it was specifically targeted towards the question at hand:
Alignment in the Multiverse, PHB 122 A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.
That is specifically about "devils" not about "fiends". A Devil isn't a creature type, it's just a reference to a fiend of a particular alignment/abode. Demons and Devils are both fiends of a specific alignment, so yes, them becoming "good" stops them being demons and devils, but does not stop them from being fiends - they still remain the same fiend with the same stats, they are just no longer called a demon/devil.
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That is specifically about "devils" not about "fiends". A Devil isn't a creature type, it's just a reference to a fiend of a particular alignment/abode. Demons and Devils are both fiends of a specific alignment, so yes, them becoming "good" stops them being demons and devils, but does not stop them from being fiends - they still remain the same fiend with the same stats, they are just no longer called a demon/devil.
I'm not sure why you brought up fiends or creature type (mechanics)... did you mistakenly think I was trying to argue with you?
I was simply pointing out that the answer to the question asked in the title of this thread, "can a devil [...]become good", was officially answered in the PHB, not the MM... assuming we are accepting the books as "official" and not DM ruling.
A fiend that became non-evil would no longer be a fiend, but that doesn't mean it ceases to exist -- it just no longer triggers spells that are based on the target being a fiend, though it probably changes to a different type that is still subject to protection from evil/good so this doesn't matter much. In 5e it appears CN outsiders (Slaadi) are Aberrations, and Good outsiders are Celestials; unclear what type LN or N would become (Modrons are Constructs, but that seems like an unlikely change of type).
I’d have a new good familiar appear as the lure to the good. Then have the imp and the new familiar compete over time for his eternal soul. Try to create an emotional attachment and attractive qualities in the imp (loyalty, sense of humour, etc.) so it’s not a straightforward choice for the character (even if the player knows which way he’s going).
Asmodeus himself, I would argue, is at least somewhat ambiguous.
He doesn't see himself as evil. He sees himself as the only person with the will and the power to do what he believes is necessary.
Like the best villains, he is evil, but he truly believes he is in the right, and he (sort of) has a point.
And with Zariel as an example of a celestial turning into a devil due to a shift in her alignment, I don't think it is at all unreasonable for it to go the other way, and a physical change would be the manifestation of the alignment shift.
Morality is complicated, and almost everything is a shade of grey. I really dislike strict adherence to arbitrary alignments.
For example, I have a Green Dragon in my campaign who is selfish and bitter, and will kill anyone who crosses her. But she loves her forest, and doesn't kill anyone unless given cause. Is this "evil"? It's certainly not "good", but adding some complexity and ambiguity is always good. I find this especially true when dealing with veteran players. Once they can ascertain (by creature type, as with fiends, or by colour, as with dragons) that something is objectively evil, they can kill without remorse and still be "the good guys". Now give that fiend or dragon a personality, a reasonable standpoint, and make them not necessarily "pure evil", and you not only give your players a moral quandary they weren't expecting for that particular situation, you give them pause to consider their actions for the rest of the campaign.
I've been toying with this idea a lot lately, and in my setting they are mostly made in one particular way. One of the most powerful celestial beings possesses a weapon with the power to burn away negative energy. Generally speaking its effect on fiends is similar to most powerful holy weapons: very lethal. But this weapon in particular is only effective against beings of the lower planes, because what it actually does is infuse the target with special holy energy that binds itself to the negative energy in the target and forces it to attack itself. It's like a holy virus attack. But extremely rarely, a fiend won't fully die when struck down by it, instead the light-infused dark energy inside them will stop attacking when there's no pure dark energy left, and go back to sustaining the life of the fiend. If at this point they spend a long time in the upper planes, they can potentially form a connection to holy energy and regain some power and become celestials. They can never completely erase the darkness inside of them, and can't become very strong, but they can learn to ward and purify evil and smite fiends very effectively. Technically, they aren't fiends anymore, and most of what they were is burned away and replaced with something new/altered. Ones that stay in the lower planes eventually die, and ones that go to neither the upper nor lower planes become something very similar to a tiefling, but not necessarily humanoid.
Lore be damned. A good-aligned demon or devil would be lead to some amazing storytelling opportunities and provides great fodder for adventures (eg. what if their old master comes calling). If a celestial can be evil (see Fazrian) I don't see why a demon or devil can't have a change of heart. And have them remain fiends so that they get caught up in effects like forbiddance, and get tagged by effects that detect fiends. That'd make the story interesting as they'd be hard-pressed to convince a paladin that they're good!
In fact, shoot for the moon. Create a demon lord who's done a 180 and struggles to maintain a peaceful environment on a layer of the abyss.
Good and Evil alignments don't necessarily match reality so a capital G, Good be bad and a capital E, Evil can be good. They're really more like sport teams than ethical positions, they have their cultures but they don't all act the same.
This is why when a Angel becomes Evil their appearance and everything changes causing them to become a devil its like changing team. Yet angels can do evil things yet still be considered Good. For example one module has a Good angel that performs Frankenstein like experiments and extorts a town. Another has an Evil Angel turned Devil where the only evil thing they did was fight demons. One changed appearance because they changed team the other didn't.
The question about what shape the character's helper can take is banal and you already have the solution. The larger question is interesting, but the answer requires recognizing that stories have themes. D&D is pretty bad about recognizing in itself the storytelling elements which conspire to make messages in the stories it tells. Alignment is one of those elements. Alignment tells players that the gameworld has a Calvinist's understanding of morality. If you're good, it's because of a deterministic force external to your choices. Alignment has this effect even when the writers put in the phrase, highlighted above, about how you can choose any alignment for any creature. The fact of having a way to name moral inclinations is enough to introduce didacticism. It's a good thing that the writers are trying to widen the parameters of the stories our game can tell. However, we're still stuck responding to the story elements as they exist at present.
The answer is not a rules based answer. The answer lies in whether you believe in bad people, whether you believe a bad person can reform, and whether you are interested in telling stories about these things. There are ways D&D can help you tell these stories and there are ways D&D makes it more difficult, but those are cosmetic concerns. The only thing that matters is whether you're interested in telling a story which says that even in a world with inherent evil, good can come out of any being decisions. What do you want your story's theme to be?
I believe that demons and devils are free willed and can achieve redemption, but this is very difficult for them because of their fundamentally evil natures
If an angel can turn evil, so can a fiend turn good.
Both will happen only extremely rarely however and a risen fiend will certainly have an even harder time than a fallen angel. After all, the fiend will realize all it's past sins and be stricken with regret. The quest for redemption may carry on for ever.
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+ Instaboot to murderhobos + I don't watch Critical Role, and no, I really shouldn't either +
Monsters of the Multiverse now presents all generic devils as "typically lawful evil" so yes, mechanically now you can change that alignment and have one change.
Monsters of the Multiverse now presents all generic devils as "typically lawful evil" so yes, mechanically now you can change that alignment and have one change.
Yes. Waterdeep Dragon Heist has an NPC who is a fiend and lives in Waterdeep.
Vincent Trench is a rakshasa who is fond of Waterdeep and its citzens. The book doesn't mention any alignment change, but they are definitely Lawful Neutral now and not Lawful Evil.
Monsters of the Multiverse now presents all generic devils as "typically lawful evil" so yes, mechanically now you can change that alignment and have one change.
This is a very good change imo.
I agree the whole “Typically” to alignment opens up a world of possibilities. Looking through it really only seems to be the demon lords and named devil lords who are defined as a def alignment (Chaotic Evil/lawful Evil). Which makes sense, they are in effect named characters so will be an alignment, all other stats are more generic.
Monsters of the Multiverse now presents all generic devils as "typically lawful evil" so yes, mechanically now you can change that alignment and have one change.
This is a very good change imo.
I agree the whole “Typically” to alignment opens up a world of possibilities. Looking through it really only seems to be the demon lords and named devil lords who are defined as a def alignment (Chaotic Evil/lawful Evil). Which makes sense, they are in effect named characters so will be an alignment, all other stats are more generic.
I totally agree
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From the Monster Manual:
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You missed what I posted earlier, and it was specifically targeted towards the question at hand:
Alignment in the Multiverse, PHB 122
A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.
... so if we are going to point at books...
...cryptographic randomness!
That is specifically about "devils" not about "fiends". A Devil isn't a creature type, it's just a reference to a fiend of a particular alignment/abode. Demons and Devils are both fiends of a specific alignment, so yes, them becoming "good" stops them being demons and devils, but does not stop them from being fiends - they still remain the same fiend with the same stats, they are just no longer called a demon/devil.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I'm not sure why you brought up fiends or creature type (mechanics)... did you mistakenly think I was trying to argue with you?
I was simply pointing out that the answer to the question asked in the title of this thread, "can a devil [...]become good", was officially answered in the PHB, not the MM... assuming we are accepting the books as "official" and not DM ruling.
... ahhh the internet!
...cryptographic randomness!
A fiend that became non-evil would no longer be a fiend, but that doesn't mean it ceases to exist -- it just no longer triggers spells that are based on the target being a fiend, though it probably changes to a different type that is still subject to protection from evil/good so this doesn't matter much. In 5e it appears CN outsiders (Slaadi) are Aberrations, and Good outsiders are Celestials; unclear what type LN or N would become (Modrons are Constructs, but that seems like an unlikely change of type).
I’d have a new good familiar appear as the lure to the good. Then have the imp and the new familiar compete over time for his eternal soul. Try to create an emotional attachment and attractive qualities in the imp (loyalty, sense of humour, etc.) so it’s not a straightforward choice for the character (even if the player knows which way he’s going).
Asmodeus himself, I would argue, is at least somewhat ambiguous.
He doesn't see himself as evil. He sees himself as the only person with the will and the power to do what he believes is necessary.
Like the best villains, he is evil, but he truly believes he is in the right, and he (sort of) has a point.
And with Zariel as an example of a celestial turning into a devil due to a shift in her alignment, I don't think it is at all unreasonable for it to go the other way, and a physical change would be the manifestation of the alignment shift.
Morality is complicated, and almost everything is a shade of grey. I really dislike strict adherence to arbitrary alignments.
For example, I have a Green Dragon in my campaign who is selfish and bitter, and will kill anyone who crosses her. But she loves her forest, and doesn't kill anyone unless given cause. Is this "evil"? It's certainly not "good", but adding some complexity and ambiguity is always good. I find this especially true when dealing with veteran players. Once they can ascertain (by creature type, as with fiends, or by colour, as with dragons) that something is objectively evil, they can kill without remorse and still be "the good guys". Now give that fiend or dragon a personality, a reasonable standpoint, and make them not necessarily "pure evil", and you not only give your players a moral quandary they weren't expecting for that particular situation, you give them pause to consider their actions for the rest of the campaign.
I've been toying with this idea a lot lately, and in my setting they are mostly made in one particular way.
One of the most powerful celestial beings possesses a weapon with the power to burn away negative energy.
Generally speaking its effect on fiends is similar to most powerful holy weapons: very lethal.
But this weapon in particular is only effective against beings of the lower planes, because what it actually does is infuse the target with special holy energy that binds itself to the negative energy in the target and forces it to attack itself. It's like a holy virus attack.
But extremely rarely, a fiend won't fully die when struck down by it, instead the light-infused dark energy inside them will stop attacking when there's no pure dark energy left, and go back to sustaining the life of the fiend. If at this point they spend a long time in the upper planes, they can potentially form a connection to holy energy and regain some power and become celestials. They can never completely erase the darkness inside of them, and can't become very strong, but they can learn to ward and purify evil and smite fiends very effectively.
Technically, they aren't fiends anymore, and most of what they were is burned away and replaced with something new/altered. Ones that stay in the lower planes eventually die, and ones that go to neither the upper nor lower planes become something very similar to a tiefling, but not necessarily humanoid.
Life is the game.
Lore be damned. A good-aligned demon or devil would be lead to some amazing storytelling opportunities and provides great fodder for adventures (eg. what if their old master comes calling). If a celestial can be evil (see Fazrian) I don't see why a demon or devil can't have a change of heart. And have them remain fiends so that they get caught up in effects like forbiddance, and get tagged by effects that detect fiends. That'd make the story interesting as they'd be hard-pressed to convince a paladin that they're good!
In fact, shoot for the moon. Create a demon lord who's done a 180 and struggles to maintain a peaceful environment on a layer of the abyss.
Good and Evil alignments don't necessarily match reality so a capital G, Good be bad and a capital E, Evil can be good. They're really more like sport teams than ethical positions, they have their cultures but they don't all act the same.
This is why when a Angel becomes Evil their appearance and everything changes causing them to become a devil its like changing team. Yet angels can do evil things yet still be considered Good. For example one module has a Good angel that performs Frankenstein like experiments and extorts a town. Another has an Evil Angel turned Devil where the only evil thing they did was fight demons. One changed appearance because they changed team the other didn't.
The question about what shape the character's helper can take is banal and you already have the solution. The larger question is interesting, but the answer requires recognizing that stories have themes. D&D is pretty bad about recognizing in itself the storytelling elements which conspire to make messages in the stories it tells. Alignment is one of those elements. Alignment tells players that the gameworld has a Calvinist's understanding of morality. If you're good, it's because of a deterministic force external to your choices. Alignment has this effect even when the writers put in the phrase, highlighted above, about how you can choose any alignment for any creature. The fact of having a way to name moral inclinations is enough to introduce didacticism. It's a good thing that the writers are trying to widen the parameters of the stories our game can tell. However, we're still stuck responding to the story elements as they exist at present.
The answer is not a rules based answer. The answer lies in whether you believe in bad people, whether you believe a bad person can reform, and whether you are interested in telling stories about these things. There are ways D&D can help you tell these stories and there are ways D&D makes it more difficult, but those are cosmetic concerns. The only thing that matters is whether you're interested in telling a story which says that even in a world with inherent evil, good can come out of any being decisions. What do you want your story's theme to be?
I believe that demons and devils are free willed and can achieve redemption, but this is very difficult for them because of their fundamentally evil natures
If an angel can turn evil, so can a fiend turn good.
Both will happen only extremely rarely however and a risen fiend will certainly have an even harder time than a fallen angel. After all, the fiend will realize all it's past sins and be stricken with regret. The quest for redemption may carry on for ever.
+ Instaboot to murderhobos + I don't watch Critical Role, and no, I really shouldn't either +
Monsters of the Multiverse now presents all generic devils as "typically lawful evil" so yes, mechanically now you can change that alignment and have one change.
This is a very good change imo.
Yes. Waterdeep Dragon Heist has an NPC who is a fiend and lives in Waterdeep.
Vincent Trench is a rakshasa who is fond of Waterdeep and its citzens. The book doesn't mention any alignment change, but they are definitely Lawful Neutral now and not Lawful Evil.
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Redeemed devils or redeemed demons should be a possibility and leads to them having an apotheosis and becoming an Angel.
Dude...it's your game. If you want Asmodeus to become the new Santa Claus, and your players have fun, then you're doing fine.
I agree the whole “Typically” to alignment opens up a world of possibilities. Looking through it really only seems to be the demon lords and named devil lords who are defined as a def alignment (Chaotic Evil/lawful Evil). Which makes sense, they are in effect named characters so will be an alignment, all other stats are more generic.
I totally agree