The party is going to be attempting a jailbreak next session.
I couldn't find anything about how long it would take for a rogue to tackle the jail cell lock. For this crew looking for the keys first is just too boring. With that in mind, they'll probably have the guards down on them while they are attempting this.
Any adjudication advice or tips before this all goes down? Should they be able to open the lock in 1 round as an action? Disadvantage because they're in the middle of combat? Too harsh?
It's just an action. It would fall into using an abject but would be treated like any other action. It shouldn't have disadvantaged because you're in combat. The thing I'm wondering about is how your rogue would do that without his thieves tools. I'm assuming they were searched before being imprisoned. So if your rogue is trying to pick the lock without his tools that would be an issue. I would probably impose disadvantage if he's trying to improvise something like using a chicken bone left over from a meal.
I would say the slight of hand roll is not disadvantaged ( except for the reason of the potentially missing thieves tools issue highlighted by BTI_Brian ), but any attacks against the Rogue may very well be at Advantage - or at very least, penalize the Rogue's AC by their Dexterity modifier, since they're now presenting a stationary target.
A competent Party will be screening their Rogue while they're doing that - so hopefully that won't come into play, unless the guards are using ranged attacks.
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I would absolutely impose disadvantage on an in-combat lockpicking attempt, but I would allow it as just an action (part of the disadvantage comes from trying to do it in so short an amount of time). Outside of combat, I’d say it’d take one minute unless the rogue gets a really high roll, which I’d rule as a luckily swift completion.
There’s not a specific rule for this; it’s DM’s discretion.
Personally I wouldn't impose Disadvantage, but I'd just set the DC higher than normal. Especially if they don't have access to their proper thieve's tools.
EDIT: I would, however, impose disadvantage if they have an enemy within melee range. Similar to how being within melee range gives disadvantage when attempting a ranged attack.
I would absolutely impose disadvantage on an in-combat lockpicking attempt, but I would allow it as just an action (part of the disadvantage comes from trying to do it in so short an amount of time). Outside of combat, I’d say it’d take one minute unless the rogue gets a really high roll, which I’d rule as a luckily swift completion.
There’s not a specific rule for this; it’s DM’s discretion.
I guess this is really a question of how long it takes to pick a lock - a skill which I don't practice in real life :D I agree that if would normally take a minute, trying to do it in 6 seconds would be at disadvantage.
An alternative method which might raise the dramatic tension of the situation is to make it more like a skill challenge: the Rogue needs to accumulate a total score in their cumulative die rolls - say, triple the DC?
E.g. - the DC of the lock is 15 ( just picking a number out of the air), the Rogue is using improvised lock picks ( I like the image of the Rogue "using a chicken bone left over from a meal" ) , so they're rolling at disadvantage. Their cumulative total needed is 45. They roll (10,18),(10,13),(18,11),(15,14) - with a +3 Dexterity/Proficiency modifier, making their rolls 13,13,14,17 = 57 - so it takes them 4 rounds of combat to open the lock.
The astute DM will note that it's not possible for the Player to actually fail at opening the lock this way, even though it adds a lot of dramatic tension, and adds uncertainty as to when the lock will open. Personally, I'm OK with that - I want my Players to win, but I want them to work and sweat and worry and need to be clever to do it ;) However, If you wanted to re-introduce the possibility of outright failure, then simply have the Guards raise an alarm. Now the Players have X rounds of combat before the Guard reinforcements arrive, swarm them, subdue them, and throw them all into solitary confinement.
If you don't mind employing a bit of DM meta-gaming ( meta-gaming != always bad ), you could even outright announce to your Players - "you know from you time in prison so far that it'll take around 30 seconds for the guards from the East guard station to get here ... ". That gives them a hard deadline that they know Rogue has to beat, and raises the tension.
I wouldn't use this method for regular opening of locks, just this particular dramatic situation.
This sounds like it could be a really fun encounter :)
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I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of post about this but I disagree with Saga, there are several rules about just this. Including rules about thieves tools, locks themselves and proficiency.
One thing I want to point out is that this is what a rogue does. It's what they are built for. Why would they be punished with disadvantage for doing what they are built for. Also if you go with a thief archetype at 3rd level you can pick locks as a bonus action using your fast hands. It is part of a normal round and should be treated like any other combat action, or bonus action as the case may be. There's also certain situations where disadvantage would be imposed for improvisation or lack of proficiency, so in that case you would have to impose a double disadvantage. The mechanics wouldn't work.
With that said I would certainly put the lock of a jail at a higher DC than a normal lock
No one is built to pick locks in combat, and no, there are no rules about it. There’s no such thing as “double disadvantage” (there ARE rules about THAT).
Again, it’s the DM’s discretion. If one doesn’t want to treat it any differently than out-of-combat, that’s totally fine. But such difficult circumstances are precisely what the disadvantage mechanic was designed to handle: “They reflect temporary circumstances that might affect the chances of a character succeeding or failing at a task.”
When else other when in initiative would you use a bonus action. And I agree double disadvantage doesn't work, that was my point. Anyways, I'm not going to argue it. It's ultimately the DM's call how to handle it. I'm just sighting how I would do it.
There was a combat with some soldier which started abducting party members. (Believe me, there's nothing more frightening that having party members who have fallen to be dragged off the battlefield rather than sitting there idle waiting for somebody to stuff a healing potion in their mouth!)
The party's morale broke and they tried to escape. Only two managed to get out. They regrouped. Turns out there fellows were being sold into slavery. The two of them have managed to sneak back into the slavers' den and are about to try to break their comrades free. The halfling Sorcere and his Rogue 2 / Wizard 4 companion and stocked with spells and, of course, a set of Thieves' Tools. They had alerted a few guards who where chasing them through some tunnels and they were just about to round the corner into the cell area when we ended for the evening...! Cliff Hanger!
In previous editions, picking a lock took multiple rounds. Suggestions were anywhere from "d4 rounds" to "1 minute" (10 rounds) to more complicated skill-based math (like the "accumulated success" suggestion earlier in this thread).
I get that rogues are supposed to be good at this. And I understand there is a [RAW] class power that lets them do this as *bonus* action -- because 6 seconds was too fast, in combat, let's do it in 3! But this seriously strains my suspension of disbelief. Even if they have their tools out, in hand, and are waiting for "ready, set, go!", best guess is "7 to 10 seconds" (https://wazoosurvivalgear.com/blogs/survival-skills/5-myths-of-lock-picking-stripping-away-the-myths-of-this-survival-skill) for very simple locks. *If* you have the right lockpicks.
I would propose that lockpicking takes a d4+1 rounds base, with an additional d4 rounds per 5 DC over "a simple lock" (DC 10), doubled in stressful situations (at a minimum). Got a DC 20 superior lock? 3d4+1 rounds. Mastercrafted dwarven puzzle-lock while traps are firing and battle rages? Start counting the minutes!
"But what about masterful skill? Expertise? opening locks as a bonus action?" The skill question answers itself - every time you fail, you try again (unless the DM imposes a penalty for failure), spending another 12-30 seconds on the simple lock, or a few minutes on more complicated ones. the "I'm magically good at this (bonus action)" change to "takes half the time", or maybe "roll one less die for duration" -- the Bonus-Action-Lockpicker can therefore open a DC 10 lock in a single round (where anyone else is looking at 2-5 rounds).
i would say they locks dc would probably tell you how long it would take. videos like the ones lock picking lawyer does show just how easy locks are to pick anywhere from a few seconds to a minute or 2. something like a dc 10 could probably be raked in under 6 but a dc 15 could take any where between 6 seconds to a minute ect. of course this must assume that being proficient with lock picking also should give the player knowledge about locks and recognize what it is and a general time frame it could take. and having thieves tools should imply that the kit has everything thats needed baring magic guarding the door. as for combat i see no reason to punish the attempt with disadvantage if there isn't an enemy at least threatening him. hes a professional and he will already not be participating in the combat at that point. so ultimately in my mind you need to think "how hard should these locks be"
the jail cell?15 or higher they want to keep you in but after that i wager aside from maybe key areas and evidence storage any locked doors would be 15 or lower and possibly not locked at all if its not a place of importance .
Trivial (DC 5): a task that is so easy that isn't worth a check. An adventurer can almost always succeed automatically.
Easy (DC 10)"1 round": requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.
Moderate (DC 15) "2-3 rounds": requires a bit more competence to accomplish. Can be completed more often than not by a character with both natural aptitude and specialized training.
Hard (DC 20) "5 rounds": include anything beyond the capabilities of the average person without aid or exceptional talent. Even with a bit of training and skill you still need some luck to pull it off (or maybe some specialized training).
now the issue is how do you make this fun for the player you got guys keeping him safe fighting for their lives while he fiddles with locks doing nothing for x rounds. so technically he only truly needs 1 successful pick to open the door but if the lock takes longer then a round to open even with a success how do you make it interesting. what i would do is allow him to make additional checks to shave of time; 1 successful pick takes off one extra round a crit gets you 2 rounds off and a crit fail sets you back 1 round. note a failure should not make him restart all over. if he's threatened or being attacked give him disadvantage.
Any adjudication advice or tips before this all goes down? Should they be able to open the lock in 1 round as an action? Disadvantage because they're in the middle of combat? Too harsh?
That all depends on what challenge you want. The game world is there to provide the challenge you want to provide, not the other way around.
Do you want the rogue to have to spend multiple rounds trying the lock while the rest of the team stop the guards from hitting the rogue (resetting the clock)?
Do you want the rogue to just make one roll and "done, you're out."?
+1 for giving the lock a total requirement and having them add their rolls together to crack it. I think that offers a realistic approach (the longer you work on it, the easier it gets to work it out), and offers critical success (roll a 20 and you just nail it). I will certainly be employing this method for any in-combat lockpicking I use! It also removes it from being a single roll, guarantees eventual success and adds a good level of tension to the encounter!
Guys it is in the rules, 1 action, or a bonus action for a thief using fast hands. Anything else is homebrew. The rogue class has enough issues without shafting them on one of the things they are supposed to be good at.
Bear in mind that (a) D&D locks are probably late medieval to early renaissance quality, not modern tumbler locks, and (b) even today, many lower security locks can be popped open with a fairly small amount of force in the proper location.
Guys it is in the rules, 1 action, or a bonus action for a thief using fast hands. Anything else is homebrew. The rogue class has enough issues without shafting them on one of the things they are supposed to be good at.
You are absolutely right. I just think the [RAW] is wrong/inaccurate. And remember also that *anyone* with "Thieves' Tools" proficiency can do this (further diluting the rogue's niche). One of the campaigns I play in, the *artificer* is picking all the locks - we don't have or need a rogue.
And since I'm planning on "tweaking" (homebrew), *I* would want to give a slight edge to the Rogue class in general (the "bonus action" fast hands is already included in my proposal).
One thing I personally need to keep in mind relates to what Uthidar pointed out and my own tendency towards "edition fatigue" -- keeping DCs balanced for 5e's bounded system. DC 20 was a *starting* point for locks in previous editions; in 5e, it's a masterwork!
Guys it is in the rules, 1 action, or a bonus action for a thief using fast hands. Anything else is homebrew. The rogue class has enough issues without shafting them on one of the things they are supposed to be good at.
One thing I personally need to keep in mind relates to what Uthidar pointed out and my own tendency towards "edition fatigue" -- keeping DCs balanced for 5e's bounded system. DC 20 was a *starting* point for locks in previous editions; in 5e, it's a masterwork!
Yes, there has been a massive drop in the difficulties across the board, but one thing to remember is that skills such as lock picking have changed massively. In 3.5 I think it was, rogue skills were a percentage roll, in Pathfinder difficulties were much higher because skill levels could be significantly higher as they could go up every level and had crazy potential skill bonuses with much easier stacking rules. In 5e the skill levels are lower across the board and there are less options to abuse bonuses and because of that they brought down the skill check DC to compensate. The Devs have playtested and set up what they consider a balanced system, that's not to say you can't homebrew because obviously you can, I do in the games I run. Personally though I wouldn't increase DC's too high or make picking locks take minutes Think about it - a rogue with a dex of 20 and expertise at level 4 has a 9 skill, so still less than a 50% chance to get a DC 20 lock. If they have expertise in thieves tools then they are building their character specifically for that role so making it harder really nerfs them.
The party is going to be attempting a jailbreak next session.
I couldn't find anything about how long it would take for a rogue to tackle the jail cell lock. For this crew looking for the keys first is just too boring. With that in mind, they'll probably have the guards down on them while they are attempting this.
Any adjudication advice or tips before this all goes down? Should they be able to open the lock in 1 round as an action? Disadvantage because they're in the middle of combat? Too harsh?
It's just an action. It would fall into using an abject but would be treated like any other action. It shouldn't have disadvantaged because you're in combat. The thing I'm wondering about is how your rogue would do that without his thieves tools. I'm assuming they were searched before being imprisoned. So if your rogue is trying to pick the lock without his tools that would be an issue. I would probably impose disadvantage if he's trying to improvise something like using a chicken bone left over from a meal.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
I would say the slight of hand roll is not disadvantaged ( except for the reason of the potentially missing thieves tools issue highlighted by BTI_Brian ), but any attacks against the Rogue may very well be at Advantage - or at very least, penalize the Rogue's AC by their Dexterity modifier, since they're now presenting a stationary target.
A competent Party will be screening their Rogue while they're doing that - so hopefully that won't come into play, unless the guards are using ranged attacks.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I would absolutely impose disadvantage on an in-combat lockpicking attempt, but I would allow it as just an action (part of the disadvantage comes from trying to do it in so short an amount of time). Outside of combat, I’d say it’d take one minute unless the rogue gets a really high roll, which I’d rule as a luckily swift completion.
There’s not a specific rule for this; it’s DM’s discretion.
Personally I wouldn't impose Disadvantage, but I'd just set the DC higher than normal. Especially if they don't have access to their proper thieve's tools.
EDIT: I would, however, impose disadvantage if they have an enemy within melee range. Similar to how being within melee range gives disadvantage when attempting a ranged attack.
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I guess this is really a question of how long it takes to pick a lock - a skill which I don't practice in real life :D I agree that if would normally take a minute, trying to do it in 6 seconds would be at disadvantage.
An alternative method which might raise the dramatic tension of the situation is to make it more like a skill challenge: the Rogue needs to accumulate a total score in their cumulative die rolls - say, triple the DC?
E.g. - the DC of the lock is 15 ( just picking a number out of the air), the Rogue is using improvised lock picks ( I like the image of the Rogue "using a chicken bone left over from a meal" ) , so they're rolling at disadvantage. Their cumulative total needed is 45. They roll (10,18),(10,13),(18,11),(15,14) - with a +3 Dexterity/Proficiency modifier, making their rolls 13,13,14,17 = 57 - so it takes them 4 rounds of combat to open the lock.
The astute DM will note that it's not possible for the Player to actually fail at opening the lock this way, even though it adds a lot of dramatic tension, and adds uncertainty as to when the lock will open. Personally, I'm OK with that - I want my Players to win, but I want them to work and sweat and worry and need to be clever to do it ;) However, If you wanted to re-introduce the possibility of outright failure, then simply have the Guards raise an alarm. Now the Players have X rounds of combat before the Guard reinforcements arrive, swarm them, subdue them, and throw them all into solitary confinement.
If you don't mind employing a bit of DM meta-gaming ( meta-gaming != always bad ), you could even outright announce to your Players - "you know from you time in prison so far that it'll take around 30 seconds for the guards from the East guard station to get here ... ". That gives them a hard deadline that they know Rogue has to beat, and raises the tension.
I wouldn't use this method for regular opening of locks, just this particular dramatic situation.
This sounds like it could be a really fun encounter :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of post about this but I disagree with Saga, there are several rules about just this. Including rules about thieves tools, locks themselves and proficiency.
One thing I want to point out is that this is what a rogue does. It's what they are built for. Why would they be punished with disadvantage for doing what they are built for. Also if you go with a thief archetype at 3rd level you can pick locks as a bonus action using your fast hands. It is part of a normal round and should be treated like any other combat action, or bonus action as the case may be. There's also certain situations where disadvantage would be imposed for improvisation or lack of proficiency, so in that case you would have to impose a double disadvantage. The mechanics wouldn't work.
With that said I would certainly put the lock of a jail at a higher DC than a normal lock
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
No one is built to pick locks in combat, and no, there are no rules about it. There’s no such thing as “double disadvantage” (there ARE rules about THAT).
Again, it’s the DM’s discretion. If one doesn’t want to treat it any differently than out-of-combat, that’s totally fine. But such difficult circumstances are precisely what the disadvantage mechanic was designed to handle: “They reflect temporary circumstances that might affect the chances of a character succeeding or failing at a task.”
As always it is the DM's discretion but how can there be no rules about picking locks in combat when there's this..
Fast Hands
Starting at 3rd Level, you can use the Bonus Action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an Object action.
When else other when in initiative would you use a bonus action. And I agree double disadvantage doesn't work, that was my point. Anyways, I'm not going to argue it. It's ultimately the DM's call how to handle it. I'm just sighting how I would do it.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
There was a combat with some soldier which started abducting party members. (Believe me, there's nothing more frightening that having party members who have fallen to be dragged off the battlefield rather than sitting there idle waiting for somebody to stuff a healing potion in their mouth!)
The party's morale broke and they tried to escape. Only two managed to get out. They regrouped. Turns out there fellows were being sold into slavery. The two of them have managed to sneak back into the slavers' den and are about to try to break their comrades free. The halfling Sorcere and his Rogue 2 / Wizard 4 companion and stocked with spells and, of course, a set of Thieves' Tools. They had alerted a few guards who where chasing them through some tunnels and they were just about to round the corner into the cell area when we ended for the evening...! Cliff Hanger!
In previous editions, picking a lock took multiple rounds. Suggestions were anywhere from "d4 rounds" to "1 minute" (10 rounds) to more complicated skill-based math (like the "accumulated success" suggestion earlier in this thread).
I get that rogues are supposed to be good at this. And I understand there is a [RAW] class power that lets them do this as *bonus* action -- because 6 seconds was too fast, in combat, let's do it in 3! But this seriously strains my suspension of disbelief. Even if they have their tools out, in hand, and are waiting for "ready, set, go!", best guess is "7 to 10 seconds" (https://wazoosurvivalgear.com/blogs/survival-skills/5-myths-of-lock-picking-stripping-away-the-myths-of-this-survival-skill) for very simple locks. *If* you have the right lockpicks.
I would propose that lockpicking takes a d4+1 rounds base, with an additional d4 rounds per 5 DC over "a simple lock" (DC 10), doubled in stressful situations (at a minimum). Got a DC 20 superior lock? 3d4+1 rounds. Mastercrafted dwarven puzzle-lock while traps are firing and battle rages? Start counting the minutes!
"But what about masterful skill? Expertise? opening locks as a bonus action?" The skill question answers itself - every time you fail, you try again (unless the DM imposes a penalty for failure), spending another 12-30 seconds on the simple lock, or a few minutes on more complicated ones. the "I'm magically good at this (bonus action)" change to "takes half the time", or maybe "roll one less die for duration" -- the Bonus-Action-Lockpicker can therefore open a DC 10 lock in a single round (where anyone else is looking at 2-5 rounds).
Thoughts?
i would say they locks dc would probably tell you how long it would take. videos like the ones lock picking lawyer does show just how easy locks are to pick anywhere from a few seconds to a minute or 2. something like a dc 10 could probably be raked in under 6 but a dc 15 could take any where between 6 seconds to a minute ect. of course this must assume that being proficient with lock picking also should give the player knowledge about locks and recognize what it is and a general time frame it could take. and having thieves tools should imply that the kit has everything thats needed baring magic guarding the door. as for combat i see no reason to punish the attempt with disadvantage if there isn't an enemy at least threatening him. hes a professional and he will already not be participating in the combat at that point. so ultimately in my mind you need to think "how hard should these locks be"
the jail cell?15 or higher they want to keep you in but after that i wager aside from maybe key areas and evidence storage any locked doors would be 15 or lower and possibly not locked at all if its not a place of importance .
Trivial (DC 5): a task that is so easy that isn't worth a check. An adventurer can almost always succeed automatically.
Easy (DC 10)"1 round": requires a minimum level of competence or a bit of luck to accomplish.
Moderate (DC 15) "2-3 rounds": requires a bit more competence to accomplish. Can be completed more often than not by a character with both natural aptitude and specialized training.
Hard (DC 20) "5 rounds": include anything beyond the capabilities of the average person without aid or exceptional talent. Even with a bit of training and skill you still need some luck to pull it off (or maybe some specialized training).
now the issue is how do you make this fun for the player you got guys keeping him safe fighting for their lives while he fiddles with locks doing nothing for x rounds. so technically he only truly needs 1 successful pick to open the door but if the lock takes longer then a round to open even with a success how do you make it interesting. what i would do is allow him to make additional checks to shave of time; 1 successful pick takes off one extra round a crit gets you 2 rounds off and a crit fail sets you back 1 round. note a failure should not make him restart all over. if he's threatened or being attacked give him disadvantage.
That all depends on what challenge you want. The game world is there to provide the challenge you want to provide, not the other way around.
Do you want the rogue to have to spend multiple rounds trying the lock while the rest of the team stop the guards from hitting the rogue (resetting the clock)?
Do you want the rogue to just make one roll and "done, you're out."?
+1 for giving the lock a total requirement and having them add their rolls together to crack it. I think that offers a realistic approach (the longer you work on it, the easier it gets to work it out), and offers critical success (roll a 20 and you just nail it). I will certainly be employing this method for any in-combat lockpicking I use! It also removes it from being a single roll, guarantees eventual success and adds a good level of tension to the encounter!
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Guys it is in the rules, 1 action, or a bonus action for a thief using fast hands. Anything else is homebrew. The rogue class has enough issues without shafting them on one of the things they are supposed to be good at.
Bear in mind that (a) D&D locks are probably late medieval to early renaissance quality, not modern tumbler locks, and (b) even today, many lower security locks can be popped open with a fairly small amount of force in the proper location.
You are absolutely right. I just think the [RAW] is wrong/inaccurate. And remember also that *anyone* with "Thieves' Tools" proficiency can do this (further diluting the rogue's niche). One of the campaigns I play in, the *artificer* is picking all the locks - we don't have or need a rogue.
And since I'm planning on "tweaking" (homebrew), *I* would want to give a slight edge to the Rogue class in general (the "bonus action" fast hands is already included in my proposal).
One thing I personally need to keep in mind relates to what Uthidar pointed out and my own tendency towards "edition fatigue" -- keeping DCs balanced for 5e's bounded system. DC 20 was a *starting* point for locks in previous editions; in 5e, it's a masterwork!
Where is it in the rules?
Yes, there has been a massive drop in the difficulties across the board, but one thing to remember is that skills such as lock picking have changed massively. In 3.5 I think it was, rogue skills were a percentage roll, in Pathfinder difficulties were much higher because skill levels could be significantly higher as they could go up every level and had crazy potential skill bonuses with much easier stacking rules. In 5e the skill levels are lower across the board and there are less options to abuse bonuses and because of that they brought down the skill check DC to compensate. The Devs have playtested and set up what they consider a balanced system, that's not to say you can't homebrew because obviously you can, I do in the games I run. Personally though I wouldn't increase DC's too high or make picking locks take minutes Think about it - a rogue with a dex of 20 and expertise at level 4 has a 9 skill, so still less than a 50% chance to get a DC 20 lock. If they have expertise in thieves tools then they are building their character specifically for that role so making it harder really nerfs them.
And what's the point of a lock, long term, for the campaign if the party can't get past it :)