Hello fellow Dungeon Masters! I am just starting out my first big adventure. I've ran many one-shots, but tomorrow is the big day. So I have to ask, Should I be afraid to kill my PCs? I know how much effort my Players put into them and I don't want to make them sad. Then again I don't want them clowning on me for having too easy encounters. Thanks for any advice given!
My players know, that adventuring can be dangerous. I do not go out of my way trying to kill off PCs, but if the dice rolls lead to a PC being killed, then that is, how it goes.
If your players are fine with this lingering threat of mortality, go ahead.
You can probably talk off table to your players, what they expect. The more they are into roleplaying, the more probable it is, that they roll with the death of a companion.
I asked my players and they said they were cool with it. However, that doesn't make me any less nervous. I think I might push them towards the brink of death.
Since they're cool with it... Then don't pay attention to it. I never even give it a second of my thought.
1. obviously make sure you make encounters as best you can. Have reinforcements or retreats where it makes sense. However I always look at it from the perception of the bad guy. What are their main goals. Break it up in smaller goals. In what kind of time line and location/manner would they take the appropriate actions to achieve said goals. What resources does the bad guy have at their disposal. This should allow you to create scenario's that are believable and logical. Not taking the PC's into consideration one bit. After all... the world does not revolve around them. They just happen to stumble on these situations and have to deal with them. It is ok if these situations are too challenging on paper. It is for the PC's to assess the risk and find a way to deal with it. Based on the second part.... information and preparing properly. I rarely keep the PC's skills and abilities in mind when creating situations. If they don't have the obvious means available to deal with a situation. You can count on good players for getting really creative in finding solutions.
2. always be very clear and upfront with information. This means that the PC's should be able to investigate, ask around town, scout and use all means at their disposable to get all the information. Don't be stingy with information in general. Better to give too much than too little. This will allow players to prepare their resources and plans accordingly. Of course you as DM will still make small adjustments such as patrols, the baddie perhaps having their people spread in a different way due to events happening. However the people present should still be roughly the same amount. This will make the players feel rewarded and engaged.
2.a should you have players that are unsure of the situation they're in. They can always ask the DM for more clear description. They can even ask if x is present or not. gradually getting more clarification on the details. Should you as DM have created a deep well in which you can't see the bottom. And a player jumps in without even checking if its safe... Ask if "They are really sure about this". If they keep saying yes. Don't be sad that you have to roll fall damage and thus killing the PC's. we're DM's and not babysitters. we adjucate and are not responsible for player stupidity. Be clear in your descriptions and be liberal in giving information. You're not there to hold their hands in every little thing they do. the decisions are theirs to make...even the moronic ones.
3. Just let the events play out. If they do something that gets them killed... its usually on them in some capacity anyway. After all... they're the ones responsible for preparing and gaining information as best they could. If they didn't it is on them.
For example. I had players do an investigation around town. Each location had information. 4 bed rolls, hints of there being infiltrators that can disguise themselves. There is 1 big baddie called "slum devil" hunting and killing people. Various locations with signs of slave trading, sulfuric acid, they even suspect that devils and succubus are at play. And still only 2 of the players went in the "lair" while the other PC's went to do other stuff... such as actually just going to bed at the inn after a long day of tinkering and Auctioneering. So now the 2 in the lair of the baddies are having a difficult time. Upcoming saturday they might even die and I've already asked them to bring back-up chars just in case.
Would be nice if they died. In 40 sessions of 6-8 hours each... I've only had 1 PC die with a handful of extremely close calls and 1 that I've brought back after him meeting his deity. I'm hungering for another death. However never go out of your way to make it happen. As a DM always be as fair and neutral as possible.
It can be hard, and I try not to do it in general - especially when I know how committed they are to that character. Sometimes - especially with groups of less experienced players I will point out that their planned actions might have serious consequences - but I stop that as they get more experienced as players. But if they are just going gung-ho and don't stop to think or make plans, or take any kind of precautions then yes, I let the dice decide. The death saving throw mechanics used in 5e has really watered down the risk anyway, it mollycodles players far more than older editions.
There are many ways to avoid death in 5E. Should you reduce to 0 HP and incapacitate a character? Sure. If they die after that, either you wanted to kill them or no-one in the group took any reasonable action to prevent the characters death. If you one shot Crit or Instant Death kill a player, you probably didn't gauge the Encounter Difficulty very well.
Well, there are scenarios, where death can come easy.
I had a situation in my last session, where my group of level 3 PCs tried to scout out a fortified camp of a raiding company consisting of goblins, hobgoblins, a pair of Ogres and some of their trained beasts. After messing up and getting spotted by a patrol they were hunted. The firbolg moon druid of the group had changed into a panther and was seperated from the rest of the party but used the distraction to disguise self as a hobgoblin and straight walked through the enemy camp sucessfully trying to be unsuspicious (which was a totally balsy move of the druid, that I did not anticipate, but rolled with it).
The druid came across a pen with 6 dire wolves in it, snarling at the druid.
The player considered, if these dire wolves were captured and imprisoned there, to let them out and use them as additional distraction. If the druid would have done so, without further thought, the 6 wolves would have attacked and probably shredded the druid to pieces, including ripping the body apart as snack for in between.
However, the druid used speak to animals and figured out, that the wolves were trained fighting beasts used by the goblins for assaults, and were hostile against that strange smelling disguised firbolg.
This whole situation was so deadly, I as a DM already started preparing further options and possibilities in my mind, but my player got away just so by a hair's breadth.
So, this was not even a real prepared combat encounter there, that still would have seen a player killed.
That would have been entirely the players own fault. To go into an enemy camp completely alone with no back up or support, and relying only upon a one use per day first level spell that only lasts for 1 hour was plain crazy. There is a line between brave and stupid and this was so far over it that they couldn't even see it anymore. If they did that and died then they have nobody to blame but themselves. Wolves are well known as being scent hunters in real life, the player should have been able to understand that they would be reacting to his scent as the disguise self spell is purely a visual illusion. The only way I would give the player an out of game warning is if they were either a brand new player or a very young player, otherwise roll for initiative.
Here's the thing, you had this all thought out and planned out like it is REAL LIFE, it's not. If you did not need the Druid ripped to shreds to further your story, he would not be.
I guess I don't just let random, unplanned scenarios get out of control and kill characters that aren't really asking for it. It's not even like video game life where you go exploring and some red skull icon starts chasing you. Get back on the road, run, run, run! LOL.
Only you know what's in store for your players so, you could have just gave the Druid a free pass through the enemy camp for being ballsy. You decided to introduce a pit of Dire Wolves to the character. If it wasn't the time and place for them, then you don't. Before anyone starts crying about character agency, if sandbox and character agency means, go ahead do that and getting utterly wrecked with no warning, then go for it!
Here's the thing, you had this all thought out and planned out like it is REAL LIFE, it's not. If you did not need the Druid ripped to shreds to further your story, he would not be.
I guess I don't just let random, unplanned scenarios get out of control and kill characters that aren't really asking for it. It's not even like video game life where you go exploring and some red skull icon starts chasing you. Get back on the road, run, run, run! LOL.
Only you know what's in store for your players so, you could have just gave the Druid a free pass through the enemy camp for being ballsy. You decided to introduce a pit of Dire Wolves to the character. If it wasn't the time and place for them, then you don't. Before anyone starts crying about character agency, if sandbox and character agency means, go ahead do that and getting utterly wrecked with no warning, then go for it!
Oh, the characters saw the pens on their first look at the camp. I did not just place them there. They just did not know, what was in there. And the druid did not die, she thought about checking again, even though she had her hand already on the pen's gate.
And I definetely put enough hints in, that this might not be a smart move to open that pen. If she would have ignored even that, then that's it.
When you control all aspects of an imagined scenario, it's still you who kills a character(permanently). It's not dice rolls or anything else.
Druid let's out snarling Dire Wolves....OOooooooh, this looks bad! *Hey, whattya doin??!!*, in Goblin. The Dire Wolves all V-line for the Goblin that was known to beat the wolves mercilessly during training. They rip him to bloody ribbons as the Druid runs in terror through the rest of the camp and escapes.
The wolves had her scent already and were ready to pounce behind the gate. Yeah, you can work around it for sure, but in this case, this would have been a really really stupid move to open that gate. For my personal taste the Goblin getting shredded, would be much too much deus ex machina.
If something else would have happended, I would go for the capture scenario and take the player prisoner or something.
Reminds me of the druid going in spider form and scouting out the dungeon. she entered the chamber where there were guard drakes. she snuck past it through a keyhole into a room. There was a orc shaman with 2 of her helpers doing some cauldron cooking. She saw the spider and smacked it. Turned into the druid. Druid had to scamper for her life past the guard drakes and out into the open. Where she also had to outrun some stirges she snuck past earlier. If she had died... She'd have died. Stuff was already there and planned ahead of time. Even part of an official module. Players want to take risks. Fine. Then they'll also risk potentially dying if it goes south. I'm not holding punches back.
The simple solution in this example would have been to say the pen was empty. After all the Goblins knew that the party was out there somewhere and were actively trying to hunt them down. So it would make perfect sense to have taken the wolves to help track the party.
Hello fellow Dungeon Masters! I am just starting out my first big adventure. I've ran many one-shots, but tomorrow is the big day. So I have to ask, Should I be afraid to kill my PCs? I know how much effort my Players put into them and I don't want to make them sad. Then again I don't want them clowning on me for having too easy encounters. Thanks for any advice given!
That is what a “Session 0” is for. Before you actually start playing (ideally even before the characters are created!) a DM should, IMHO, run a session that is mostly an IRL conversation and character building. It’s an opportunity for the DM to discuss expectations with the players before the game starts.
That way, you can discuss with them their feelings about PC death, if you all want a serious game or a sillier game, stuff like that. That way, everyone is prepared for and agrees to the parameters of the campaign. It’s an opportunity to establish the “social contract” at the table.
Good luck. And welcome to the other side of the DM’s screen!
There are many ways to avoid death in 5E. Should you reduce to 0 HP and incapacitate a character? Sure. If they die after that, either you wanted to kill them or no-one in the group took any reasonable action to prevent the characters death. If you one shot Crit or Instant Death kill a player, you probably didn't gauge the Encounter Difficulty very well.
I disagree with that last statement. Bad luck happens. Sometimes a character dies due to a crit.
I was in a party of 6 or 7, 4th level characters in the jungle in ToA and we were attacked by a pair of giant crocs while getting out of our canoes. My character was a 4th level rogue, 12 con, and 25 out of 27 hit points. The croc does 3d10+5 on a bite, a crit does 6d10+5 ... I lost initiative, the croc crit and hit for 51 damage ... this was within 1 point of instantly killing my 4th level character. Crits and bad luck can happen any time and it isn't the DMs fault for using level appropriate opponents.
My character survived, the party got my character back up and we didn't have much trouble with the crocs in the end but it was an example of what can happen even at level 4.
At level 1, it is much worse. A single hit from an orc can take a character below zero hit points and a crit can instantly kill them. Are orcs inappropriate opponents for level 1 characters? Even one orc? One orc is below easy for a party of six first level characters, two orcs is easy ... and yet if they get initiative and the dice go badly you could end up with two characters down or instantly killed in the first round. (This isn't a comment about encounters so much as ... try to get your characters out of level 1 as soon as makes sense narratively :) ) The extra hit points tend to greatly help reduce the chance of bad luck on one dice roll instantly killing characters).
---
Finally, to the OP, don't go out of your way to kill characters. Try to set reasonable encounters. Death saves give characters a buffer but as soon as someone is down the rest of the party should be trying to think of ways to get them back up ... a druid, cleric or bard with healing word is the easiest solution ... but a cleric with save the dying, a character with the healer feat or some healing potions or good berries that can be fed to the down character as an action all work in a pinch. If the party doesn't work together to save the character then it isn't the DMs fault. :)
However, if you don't want to kill characters, avoid having monsters attack characters that have been knocked to zero hit points. A successfull attack against an unconscious opponent has advantage on to hit from within 5' and each hit counts as a crit which is two automatic death save fails. Two hits on an unconscious character kills them. "Most" DMs I know have the monsters move on to opponents that are "alive" and moving around. The only exception I have is when an intelligent opponent starts noticing characters coming back up due to yo-yo healing - these intelligent opponents may decide to try to make sure opponents are dead and in this case it is up to the party to take some action to distract them and prevent them from attacking incapacitated party members.
Finally, if the characters take truly risky or ludicrous actions, always be sure to enforce reasonable consequences. This may mean that characters die but in this case it is a direct consequence of their actions ... just make sure that you explain exactly how you are interpreting what the player is saying and make sure they are aware of likely consequences to their actions. If they decide to do it anyway then their fate is in their hands.
Even a multi-attack where you happen to roll crit on both hits. Can take out lvl 5-6 characters without rolling excessively great damage. Once lvl5 spells come online. Death becomes less and less of a thing that matters unfortunately.
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Hello fellow Dungeon Masters! I am just starting out my first big adventure. I've ran many one-shots, but tomorrow is the big day. So I have to ask, Should I be afraid to kill my PCs? I know how much effort my Players put into them and I don't want to make them sad. Then again I don't want them clowning on me for having too easy encounters. Thanks for any advice given!
Depends on the situation and the players.
My players know, that adventuring can be dangerous. I do not go out of my way trying to kill off PCs, but if the dice rolls lead to a PC being killed, then that is, how it goes.
If your players are fine with this lingering threat of mortality, go ahead.
You can probably talk off table to your players, what they expect. The more they are into roleplaying, the more probable it is, that they roll with the death of a companion.
I asked my players and they said they were cool with it. However, that doesn't make me any less nervous. I think I might push them towards the brink of death.
Since they're cool with it... Then don't pay attention to it. I never even give it a second of my thought.
1. obviously make sure you make encounters as best you can. Have reinforcements or retreats where it makes sense. However I always look at it from the perception of the bad guy. What are their main goals. Break it up in smaller goals. In what kind of time line and location/manner would they take the appropriate actions to achieve said goals. What resources does the bad guy have at their disposal. This should allow you to create scenario's that are believable and logical. Not taking the PC's into consideration one bit. After all... the world does not revolve around them. They just happen to stumble on these situations and have to deal with them. It is ok if these situations are too challenging on paper. It is for the PC's to assess the risk and find a way to deal with it. Based on the second part.... information and preparing properly. I rarely keep the PC's skills and abilities in mind when creating situations. If they don't have the obvious means available to deal with a situation. You can count on good players for getting really creative in finding solutions.
2. always be very clear and upfront with information. This means that the PC's should be able to investigate, ask around town, scout and use all means at their disposable to get all the information. Don't be stingy with information in general. Better to give too much than too little. This will allow players to prepare their resources and plans accordingly. Of course you as DM will still make small adjustments such as patrols, the baddie perhaps having their people spread in a different way due to events happening. However the people present should still be roughly the same amount. This will make the players feel rewarded and engaged.
2.a should you have players that are unsure of the situation they're in. They can always ask the DM for more clear description. They can even ask if x is present or not. gradually getting more clarification on the details. Should you as DM have created a deep well in which you can't see the bottom. And a player jumps in without even checking if its safe... Ask if "They are really sure about this". If they keep saying yes. Don't be sad that you have to roll fall damage and thus killing the PC's. we're DM's and not babysitters. we adjucate and are not responsible for player stupidity. Be clear in your descriptions and be liberal in giving information. You're not there to hold their hands in every little thing they do. the decisions are theirs to make...even the moronic ones.
3. Just let the events play out. If they do something that gets them killed... its usually on them in some capacity anyway. After all... they're the ones responsible for preparing and gaining information as best they could. If they didn't it is on them.
For example. I had players do an investigation around town. Each location had information. 4 bed rolls, hints of there being infiltrators that can disguise themselves. There is 1 big baddie called "slum devil" hunting and killing people. Various locations with signs of slave trading, sulfuric acid, they even suspect that devils and succubus are at play. And still only 2 of the players went in the "lair" while the other PC's went to do other stuff... such as actually just going to bed at the inn after a long day of tinkering and Auctioneering. So now the 2 in the lair of the baddies are having a difficult time. Upcoming saturday they might even die and I've already asked them to bring back-up chars just in case.
Would be nice if they died. In 40 sessions of 6-8 hours each... I've only had 1 PC die with a handful of extremely close calls and 1 that I've brought back after him meeting his deity. I'm hungering for another death. However never go out of your way to make it happen. As a DM always be as fair and neutral as possible.
It can be hard, and I try not to do it in general - especially when I know how committed they are to that character. Sometimes - especially with groups of less experienced players I will point out that their planned actions might have serious consequences - but I stop that as they get more experienced as players. But if they are just going gung-ho and don't stop to think or make plans, or take any kind of precautions then yes, I let the dice decide. The death saving throw mechanics used in 5e has really watered down the risk anyway, it mollycodles players far more than older editions.
There are many ways to avoid death in 5E. Should you reduce to 0 HP and incapacitate a character? Sure. If they die after that, either you wanted to kill them or no-one in the group took any reasonable action to prevent the characters death. If you one shot Crit or Instant Death kill a player, you probably didn't gauge the Encounter Difficulty very well.
Well, there are scenarios, where death can come easy.
I had a situation in my last session, where my group of level 3 PCs tried to scout out a fortified camp of a raiding company consisting of goblins, hobgoblins, a pair of Ogres and some of their trained beasts. After messing up and getting spotted by a patrol they were hunted. The firbolg moon druid of the group had changed into a panther and was seperated from the rest of the party but used the distraction to disguise self as a hobgoblin and straight walked through the enemy camp sucessfully trying to be unsuspicious (which was a totally balsy move of the druid, that I did not anticipate, but rolled with it).
The druid came across a pen with 6 dire wolves in it, snarling at the druid.
The player considered, if these dire wolves were captured and imprisoned there, to let them out and use them as additional distraction. If the druid would have done so, without further thought, the 6 wolves would have attacked and probably shredded the druid to pieces, including ripping the body apart as snack for in between.
However, the druid used speak to animals and figured out, that the wolves were trained fighting beasts used by the goblins for assaults, and were hostile against that strange smelling disguised firbolg.
This whole situation was so deadly, I as a DM already started preparing further options and possibilities in my mind, but my player got away just so by a hair's breadth.
So, this was not even a real prepared combat encounter there, that still would have seen a player killed.
That would have been entirely the players own fault. To go into an enemy camp completely alone with no back up or support, and relying only upon a one use per day first level spell that only lasts for 1 hour was plain crazy. There is a line between brave and stupid and this was so far over it that they couldn't even see it anymore. If they did that and died then they have nobody to blame but themselves. Wolves are well known as being scent hunters in real life, the player should have been able to understand that they would be reacting to his scent as the disguise self spell is purely a visual illusion. The only way I would give the player an out of game warning is if they were either a brand new player or a very young player, otherwise roll for initiative.
Here's the thing, you had this all thought out and planned out like it is REAL LIFE, it's not. If you did not need the Druid ripped to shreds to further your story, he would not be.
I guess I don't just let random, unplanned scenarios get out of control and kill characters that aren't really asking for it. It's not even like video game life where you go exploring and some red skull icon starts chasing you. Get back on the road, run, run, run! LOL.
Only you know what's in store for your players so, you could have just gave the Druid a free pass through the enemy camp for being ballsy. You decided to introduce a pit of Dire Wolves to the character. If it wasn't the time and place for them, then you don't. Before anyone starts crying about character agency, if sandbox and character agency means, go ahead do that and getting utterly wrecked with no warning, then go for it!
Oh, the characters saw the pens on their first look at the camp. I did not just place them there. They just did not know, what was in there. And the druid did not die, she thought about checking again, even though she had her hand already on the pen's gate.
And I definetely put enough hints in, that this might not be a smart move to open that pen. If she would have ignored even that, then that's it.
When you control all aspects of an imagined scenario, it's still you who kills a character(permanently). It's not dice rolls or anything else.
Druid let's out snarling Dire Wolves....OOooooooh, this looks bad! *Hey, whattya doin??!!*, in Goblin. The Dire Wolves all V-line for the Goblin that was known to beat the wolves mercilessly during training. They rip him to bloody ribbons as the Druid runs in terror through the rest of the camp and escapes.
You have all the tools.
Well, let's agree to disagree here. :)
The wolves had her scent already and were ready to pounce behind the gate. Yeah, you can work around it for sure, but in this case, this would have been a really really stupid move to open that gate. For my personal taste the Goblin getting shredded, would be much too much deus ex machina.
If something else would have happended, I would go for the capture scenario and take the player prisoner or something.
Reminds me of the druid going in spider form and scouting out the dungeon. she entered the chamber where there were guard drakes. she snuck past it through a keyhole into a room. There was a orc shaman with 2 of her helpers doing some cauldron cooking. She saw the spider and smacked it. Turned into the druid. Druid had to scamper for her life past the guard drakes and out into the open. Where she also had to outrun some stirges she snuck past earlier. If she had died... She'd have died. Stuff was already there and planned ahead of time. Even part of an official module. Players want to take risks. Fine. Then they'll also risk potentially dying if it goes south. I'm not holding punches back.
OK, instead of disagreeing with you, I'll change my comment.
I have all the tools.
Good one. xD
The simple solution in this example would have been to say the pen was empty. After all the Goblins knew that the party was out there somewhere and were actively trying to hunt them down. So it would make perfect sense to have taken the wolves to help track the party.
There you go, that wasn't so hard was it?
That is what a “Session 0” is for. Before you actually start playing (ideally even before the characters are created!) a DM should, IMHO, run a session that is mostly an IRL conversation and character building. It’s an opportunity for the DM to discuss expectations with the players before the game starts.
That way, you can discuss with them their feelings about PC death, if you all want a serious game or a sillier game, stuff like that. That way, everyone is prepared for and agrees to the parameters of the campaign. It’s an opportunity to establish the “social contract” at the table.
Good luck. And welcome to the other side of the DM’s screen!
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I disagree with that last statement. Bad luck happens. Sometimes a character dies due to a crit.
I was in a party of 6 or 7, 4th level characters in the jungle in ToA and we were attacked by a pair of giant crocs while getting out of our canoes. My character was a 4th level rogue, 12 con, and 25 out of 27 hit points. The croc does 3d10+5 on a bite, a crit does 6d10+5 ... I lost initiative, the croc crit and hit for 51 damage ... this was within 1 point of instantly killing my 4th level character. Crits and bad luck can happen any time and it isn't the DMs fault for using level appropriate opponents.
My character survived, the party got my character back up and we didn't have much trouble with the crocs in the end but it was an example of what can happen even at level 4.
At level 1, it is much worse. A single hit from an orc can take a character below zero hit points and a crit can instantly kill them. Are orcs inappropriate opponents for level 1 characters? Even one orc? One orc is below easy for a party of six first level characters, two orcs is easy ... and yet if they get initiative and the dice go badly you could end up with two characters down or instantly killed in the first round. (This isn't a comment about encounters so much as ... try to get your characters out of level 1 as soon as makes sense narratively :) ) The extra hit points tend to greatly help reduce the chance of bad luck on one dice roll instantly killing characters).
---
Finally, to the OP, don't go out of your way to kill characters. Try to set reasonable encounters. Death saves give characters a buffer but as soon as someone is down the rest of the party should be trying to think of ways to get them back up ... a druid, cleric or bard with healing word is the easiest solution ... but a cleric with save the dying, a character with the healer feat or some healing potions or good berries that can be fed to the down character as an action all work in a pinch. If the party doesn't work together to save the character then it isn't the DMs fault. :)
However, if you don't want to kill characters, avoid having monsters attack characters that have been knocked to zero hit points. A successfull attack against an unconscious opponent has advantage on to hit from within 5' and each hit counts as a crit which is two automatic death save fails. Two hits on an unconscious character kills them. "Most" DMs I know have the monsters move on to opponents that are "alive" and moving around. The only exception I have is when an intelligent opponent starts noticing characters coming back up due to yo-yo healing - these intelligent opponents may decide to try to make sure opponents are dead and in this case it is up to the party to take some action to distract them and prevent them from attacking incapacitated party members.
Finally, if the characters take truly risky or ludicrous actions, always be sure to enforce reasonable consequences. This may mean that characters die but in this case it is a direct consequence of their actions ... just make sure that you explain exactly how you are interpreting what the player is saying and make sure they are aware of likely consequences to their actions. If they decide to do it anyway then their fate is in their hands.
Even a multi-attack where you happen to roll crit on both hits. Can take out lvl 5-6 characters without rolling excessively great damage. Once lvl5 spells come online. Death becomes less and less of a thing that matters unfortunately.