I need to apologize for asking what is simply a DMing 101 question but this is more of getting opinions on proper handling of certain situations.
When players are floundering (let's say five minutes) in what do in a situation do you come out and tell them their options or keep quiet and let them figure it out no matter how long it takes even if it may break the flow of the game.
Note: the text below comes from Idle Champions Presents: Hit and Abyss Encounter of the Week.
At any point during or after the fight, the characters can turn their attention to the cauldron and the cloud of abyssal energy above it. As an action, any character within 5 feet of the cauldron can attempt a DC 13 Intelligence (Arcana or Religion) check to control the flow of abyssal energy. On a failed check, the character takes 4 (1d8) necrotic damage as the cauldron’s dark magic overwhelms them. A success has no initial effect, save for granting the character that succeeded a sense that they’re making progress. After the characters make a total of three successful checks, the cauldron’s energy is terminally disrupted, and the chaotic cloud unravels as it is drawn down into the cauldron.
If the cauldron is shut down during the battle, any demons still in the shrine shriek in rage as they are sucked into the cauldron and back to the Abyss once more.
So far the party has not been very inquisitive in their ability checks so in cases like the one above would you let them figure it out or say when they get within the five tell them to flat out to make an Arcana or Religion check. How much do you lead the players on if at all if they answer creative or not does not come to them?
If they can overcome the challenge without doing that, let them figure it out (or not) on their own. If the only way to overcome the challenge is to do that specific thing, then it is a poorly written encounter. If that’s the case maybe drop some hints at most.
Keep in mind, a fight is going on, the characters would not actually have 5 minutes to discuss these things. I would tell the active player that if they don’t act soon then their PC will be frozen in indecision and they will lose their turn this round. A few minutes to figure out their turn is fine, if every turn takes 5 minutes or more combat will take for-e-ver.... Usually, when I fire gets lit under players like that they start to get real creative real quick.
If they aren't getting a clue after some time... I would look at who has the highest passive perception and have them roll a check with a success giving them some kind of weird flickering or something coming from the cauldron. If they fail, well... maybe they'll take the hint that they should be looking for something. I wouldn't let them all just roll unless someone asks something specific about the cloud or the cauldron.
If they can overcome the challenge without doing that, let them figure it out (or not) on their own. If the only way to overcome the challenge is to do that specific thing, then it is a poorly written encounter. If that’s the case maybe drop some hints at most.
Keep in mind, a fight is going on, the characters would not actually have 5 minutes to discuss these things. I would tell the active player that if they don’t act soon then their PC will be frozen in indecision and they will lose their turn this round. A few minutes to figure out their turn is fine, if every turn takes 5 minutes or more combat will take for-e-ver.... Usually, when I fire gets lit under players like that they start to get real creative real quick.
Thanks for the feedback. If it was poorly written then I feel that would be on me to correct if the situation went on too long. In combat situations, I give the players a small amount of time before I start doing a five-finger count down to force their action. Some cases like the text I provided above where its not a combat encounter I would not force the decision.
If they aren't getting a clue after some time... I would look at who has the highest passive perception and have them roll a check with a success giving them some kind of weird flickering or something coming from the cauldron. If they fail, well... maybe they'll take the hint that they should be looking for something. I wouldn't let them all just roll unless someone asks something specific about the cloud or the cauldron.
If they clear the demons and aren't making any progress on the cauldron, have it sputter and pop a few times and then have a weak demon pop out of it. Something like a Dretch, Manes, or Quasit should work. Emphasize that it comes out of the cauldron and then once the party defeats it, suggest that the cauldron starts shuddering as if something larger is trying to come out. If they still don't catch on have an NPC come charging in, yelling, "Just as I feared, we must close the portal!"
If they clear the demons and aren't making any progress on the cauldron, have it sputter and pop a few times and then have a weak demon pop out of it. Something like a Dretch, Manes, or Quasit should work. Emphasize that it comes out of the cauldron and then once the party defeats it, suggest that the cauldron starts shuddering as if something larger is trying to come out. If they still don't catch on have an NPC come charging in, yelling, "Just as I feared, we must close the portal!"
That's a good idea. Cranky "Old Man" Bonebane to the rescue. (Assuming you have played this Encounter set.)
At any point during or after the fight, the characters can turn their attention to the cauldron and the cloud of abyssal energy above it.
This statement is poorly worded, but it seems like it is telling the DM to expect that at some point in the battle, one of the players may think to have his or her character investigate the cauldron. The way I would probably run this is, I would say nothing about the rest of what can be done until one of the players says, "Hey, can I take a closer look at the cauldron?" At this point I would probably ask for a perception or investigation check, probably a low DC (10), as a free action. Assuming success, I would then describe the flows of energy and say something about, it looks like they might be able to be disrupted with some magic words (arcana) or prayer (religion). If they try to do the disruption, then I would have them make the check.
I guess what I am saying here is -- I try to neutrally describe the situation without giving them any clues about insight or deduction. I try not to say things like, "This thing looks like it was made to fit into that thing." I try to describe thing 1 and 2, and let them figure it out. But if they then take further investigative steps, like saying, "I compare the 2 things in shape, are they similar?" then I would provide the extra info.
Same here. I would not do anything until someone thinks to inspect the cauldron. At this point, I would try to provide enough information that they can figure out what to do next.
If they clear the demons and aren't making any progress on the cauldron, have it sputter and pop a few times and then have a weak demon pop out of it. Something like a Dretch, Manes, or Quasit should work. Emphasize that it comes out of the cauldron and then once the party defeats it, suggest that the cauldron starts shuddering as if something larger is trying to come out. If they still don't catch on have an NPC come charging in, yelling, "Just as I feared, we must close the portal!"
That's a good idea. Cranky "Old Man" Bonebane to the rescue. (Assuming you have played this Encounter set.)
Nope. I'd assume it's from Out of the Abyss based on the limited knowledge I have of the adventure and the description you gave, but I could easily be wrong. I try to only read the adventures for which I am acting as DM to limit my characters from being influenced too much by my knowledge of the adventure if I'm playing it as a PC. I'm currently playing in LMOP and have DMed it before. It's rough trying to remember what I know from preparation and what I know from roll play, especially from the aspects that I prepared long ago but we didn't get through in the game I DMed.
1) Characters will not investigate the surroundings during the fight unless motivated to do so. A simmering cauldron with a dark cloud above it or not doesn't motivate the characters to do anything with it if they are in the midst of combat with a bunch of demons. None of them will waste an action on "curiosity" when that action can be more profitably be used to defeat opponents.
IF there is a clear connection indicating that the cauldron may be the source of the demons then they might be motivated to investigate it.
2) However, this encounter is one of those that (at least based on the text cited) gives the players NO information on insight on which to base their choice of actions. WHY would any character spontaneously think that it might even be remotely possible to control a flow of abyssal energy with their mind?
All the players see is a cauldron, possibly with a dark cloud hanging over it.
- how can they tell it is "abyssal" energy?
- how can they tell what the cauldron is doing?
- how are they ever going to conceive of "can attempt a DC 13 Intelligence (Arcana or Religion) check to control the flow of abyssal energy"? Wut?
Unless there is writing on the wall or the DM gives the characters some obvious hints or clues (basically telling them what to do) or the characters have some previous experience with something similar, a random group of players will NEVER come up with this.
The players might try to cover the cauldron, they might try to physically block the energy, they might consider spells that might block the flow ... but unless the DM spells it out or there are clear hints that mental control of this energy is even a remotely feasible solution, 90% of players won't even think of trying it.
What is even worse, if the first player rolls and takes damage, they will stop. Keep in mind that the players don't have a clue what is going on. They don't know that mental control is the answer. They don't know the DC. They roll and fail and all they know is that the idea didn't work and they took damage. They will start looking everywhere for the right answer, in most cases they won't even try again unless the DM tells them to do so.
When a DM reads this encounter, it probably seems pretty reasonable, but a DM always needs to consider everything from the player perspective as well. In this case, unless the DM has supplied information not present in the OP description, the players will be at a complete and utter loss about what to do because the encounter is badly designed ... it doesn't give the players enough information to plausibly come up with the suggested solution.
If I accidentally ran this without modifying it to make sense, I'd just offer up some really obvious hints in the descriptions and the feeling around the cauldron.
"You feel the tendrils of energy pressing on your mind" ... might be sufficient.
"Your mind perceives a roiling mass of energy over the cauldron but your eyes don't see it"
"You somehow sense that the energy over the cauldron appears be trying to pull something through to the cauldron" - this is probably too vague.
I support the idea of cause and effect presented by a few others. Make the cauldron obvious as a source of interest. While in battle, interject with this: "The cauldron creates a loud humming, runes etched into it's surface start to glow". This gives the party a reason to pay attention to it but, they still may not. On the next round say: "The cauldron runes are red hot and the energy above the cauldron bursts into flames! A demon emerges". At any point, the party could examine the runes, and maybe that's what gives them the hint to controlling the Abyssal energy. I would probably give multiple way of disabling the cauldron though. Cracking the runes, dispel magic, circle of protection, etc.
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I need to apologize for asking what is simply a DMing 101 question but this is more of getting opinions on proper handling of certain situations.
When players are floundering (let's say five minutes) in what do in a situation do you come out and tell them their options or keep quiet and let them figure it out no matter how long it takes even if it may break the flow of the game.
Note: the text below comes from Idle Champions Presents: Hit and Abyss Encounter of the Week.
So far the party has not been very inquisitive in their ability checks so in cases like the one above would you let them figure it out or say when they get within the five tell them to flat out to make an Arcana or Religion check. How much do you lead the players on if at all if they answer creative or not does not come to them?
If they can overcome the challenge without doing that, let them figure it out (or not) on their own. If the only way to overcome the challenge is to do that specific thing, then it is a poorly written encounter. If that’s the case maybe drop some hints at most.
Keep in mind, a fight is going on, the characters would not actually have 5 minutes to discuss these things. I would tell the active player that if they don’t act soon then their PC will be frozen in indecision and they will lose their turn this round. A few minutes to figure out their turn is fine, if every turn takes 5 minutes or more combat will take for-e-ver.... Usually, when I fire gets lit under players like that they start to get real creative real quick.
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If they aren't getting a clue after some time... I would look at who has the highest passive perception and have them roll a check with a success giving them some kind of weird flickering or something coming from the cauldron. If they fail, well... maybe they'll take the hint that they should be looking for something. I wouldn't let them all just roll unless someone asks something specific about the cloud or the cauldron.
Thanks for the feedback. If it was poorly written then I feel that would be on me to correct if the situation went on too long. In combat situations, I give the players a small amount of time before I start doing a five-finger count down to force their action. Some cases like the text I provided above where its not a combat encounter I would not force the decision.
Thanks for the feedback!
If they clear the demons and aren't making any progress on the cauldron, have it sputter and pop a few times and then have a weak demon pop out of it. Something like a Dretch, Manes, or Quasit should work. Emphasize that it comes out of the cauldron and then once the party defeats it, suggest that the cauldron starts shuddering as if something larger is trying to come out. If they still don't catch on have an NPC come charging in, yelling, "Just as I feared, we must close the portal!"
That's a good idea. Cranky "Old Man" Bonebane to the rescue. (Assuming you have played this Encounter set.)
This statement is poorly worded, but it seems like it is telling the DM to expect that at some point in the battle, one of the players may think to have his or her character investigate the cauldron. The way I would probably run this is, I would say nothing about the rest of what can be done until one of the players says, "Hey, can I take a closer look at the cauldron?" At this point I would probably ask for a perception or investigation check, probably a low DC (10), as a free action. Assuming success, I would then describe the flows of energy and say something about, it looks like they might be able to be disrupted with some magic words (arcana) or prayer (religion). If they try to do the disruption, then I would have them make the check.
I guess what I am saying here is -- I try to neutrally describe the situation without giving them any clues about insight or deduction. I try not to say things like, "This thing looks like it was made to fit into that thing." I try to describe thing 1 and 2, and let them figure it out. But if they then take further investigative steps, like saying, "I compare the 2 things in shape, are they similar?" then I would provide the extra info.
Same here. I would not do anything until someone thinks to inspect the cauldron. At this point, I would try to provide enough information that they can figure out what to do next.
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Nope. I'd assume it's from Out of the Abyss based on the limited knowledge I have of the adventure and the description you gave, but I could easily be wrong. I try to only read the adventures for which I am acting as DM to limit my characters from being influenced too much by my knowledge of the adventure if I'm playing it as a PC. I'm currently playing in LMOP and have DMed it before. It's rough trying to remember what I know from preparation and what I know from roll play, especially from the aspects that I prepared long ago but we didn't get through in the game I DMed.
1) Characters will not investigate the surroundings during the fight unless motivated to do so. A simmering cauldron with a dark cloud above it or not doesn't motivate the characters to do anything with it if they are in the midst of combat with a bunch of demons. None of them will waste an action on "curiosity" when that action can be more profitably be used to defeat opponents.
IF there is a clear connection indicating that the cauldron may be the source of the demons then they might be motivated to investigate it.
2) However, this encounter is one of those that (at least based on the text cited) gives the players NO information on insight on which to base their choice of actions. WHY would any character spontaneously think that it might even be remotely possible to control a flow of abyssal energy with their mind?
All the players see is a cauldron, possibly with a dark cloud hanging over it.
- how can they tell it is "abyssal" energy?
- how can they tell what the cauldron is doing?
- how are they ever going to conceive of "can attempt a DC 13 Intelligence (Arcana or Religion) check to control the flow of abyssal energy"? Wut?
Unless there is writing on the wall or the DM gives the characters some obvious hints or clues (basically telling them what to do) or the characters have some previous experience with something similar, a random group of players will NEVER come up with this.
The players might try to cover the cauldron, they might try to physically block the energy, they might consider spells that might block the flow ... but unless the DM spells it out or there are clear hints that mental control of this energy is even a remotely feasible solution, 90% of players won't even think of trying it.
What is even worse, if the first player rolls and takes damage, they will stop. Keep in mind that the players don't have a clue what is going on. They don't know that mental control is the answer. They don't know the DC. They roll and fail and all they know is that the idea didn't work and they took damage. They will start looking everywhere for the right answer, in most cases they won't even try again unless the DM tells them to do so.
When a DM reads this encounter, it probably seems pretty reasonable, but a DM always needs to consider everything from the player perspective as well. In this case, unless the DM has supplied information not present in the OP description, the players will be at a complete and utter loss about what to do because the encounter is badly designed ... it doesn't give the players enough information to plausibly come up with the suggested solution.
If I accidentally ran this without modifying it to make sense, I'd just offer up some really obvious hints in the descriptions and the feeling around the cauldron.
"You feel the tendrils of energy pressing on your mind" ... might be sufficient.
"Your mind perceives a roiling mass of energy over the cauldron but your eyes don't see it"
"You somehow sense that the energy over the cauldron appears be trying to pull something through to the cauldron" - this is probably too vague.
I support the idea of cause and effect presented by a few others. Make the cauldron obvious as a source of interest. While in battle, interject with this: "The cauldron creates a loud humming, runes etched into it's surface start to glow". This gives the party a reason to pay attention to it but, they still may not. On the next round say: "The cauldron runes are red hot and the energy above the cauldron bursts into flames! A demon emerges". At any point, the party could examine the runes, and maybe that's what gives them the hint to controlling the Abyssal energy. I would probably give multiple way of disabling the cauldron though. Cracking the runes, dispel magic, circle of protection, etc.