I would roll persuasion against their Insight and if the persuasion was higher, I would emphasize how persuasive the NPC was.
Only thing that Charisma Persuasion is not an opposed check
Well, I could roll it against the PC’s passive insight, but players think rolling dice is fun, and I think it’s fun when my players are having fun, so I totally allow players to say:
”Can I make an insight check?”
I say “sure,” they roll, tell me their total, and I narrate the results. Basically the same as, well... every thing else in D&D.
I just set the DC by rolling the appropriate skill for the NPC.
Social skills have no defined effect on PCs, but they barely have defined effects on NPCs either. There's some temptation to use them as the target number to evaluate situations:
Deception: use check (or passive check) as the target number for attempts by a PC to gain information about the subject of deception. This includes most Intelligence or Wisdom checks and skills.
Intimidation: use check (or passive check) as a target number when attempting to evaluate how dangerous an opponent is. This, obviously, depends on the DM making the difficulty not just obvious; if all your orcs are bog-standard orcs, the players don't need to make a check to evaluate how dangerous six orcs are (if you find that PCs call your bluff too often, you can just change their stats based on the player's rolls...)
Persuasion: use check (or passive check) as a target number when you're trying to negotiate, and to evaluate whether a particular deal is fair (persuasion is a hard case).
That’s not what “work” means though. If something “works,” that means it does what it’s supposed to do. Your posts are based on an idea of “what it’s supposed to do” that no one has advocated, which is why Sposta has responded with incredulity.
Perhaps it was presumptuous of me to think the way I did because I commonly seen people try and it as mind control.
My post again wasn't based on anything anyone has said. It was a straight up answer to what the OP asked based on my experience. Yes I did bring up examples that didn't pertain to already going on conversations. Which is acceptable and I explained why.
I've also explained enough now that I don't think it should "work" as mind control, but should be an aid in helping social decision making. At this point it's basically splitting hairs "But you used this word." Yes I did, and I've explained to you why I did. So I dunno why you got to keep telling me about what word I used.
Social skills, should they aid in decision making. Yes.
Social skills, are they mind control that works in compelling the intended target? No.
Either we agree on that or not. Really no reason to keep dwelling on bygone words :)
I would roll persuasion against their Insight and if the persuasion was higher, I would emphasize how persuasive the NPC was.
Only thing that Charisma Persuasion is not an opposed check
Well, I could roll it against the PC’s passive insight, but players think rolling dice is fun, and I think it’s fun when my players are having fun, so I totally allow players to say:
”Can I make an insight check?”
I say “sure,” they roll, tell me their total, and I narrate the results. Basically the same as, well... every thing else in D&D.
Deception and Insight are solely skills for PCs to foil or uncover DMs plans. And they work as intended and are always contested by observer.
Persuasion on the other hand, wont work as it is always against set DC by DM.
I would roll persuasion against their Insight and if the persuasion was higher, I would emphasize how persuasive the NPC was.
Only thing that Charisma Persuasion is not an opposed check
Well, I could roll it against the PC’s passive insight, but players think rolling dice is fun, and I think it’s fun when my players are having fun, so I totally allow players to say:
”Can I make an insight check?”
I say “sure,” they roll, tell me their total, and I narrate the results. Basically the same as, well... every thing else in D&D.
Deception and Insight are solely skills for PCs to foil or uncover DMs plans. And they work as intended and are always contested by observer.
Persuasion on the other hand, wont work as it is always against set DC by DM.
E: So again answer to topic: Flat NO
I absolutely disagree with that 100%. They are not solely for that purpose, they are for anyone trying to deceive/persuade anyone else, or anyone trying to gain insight on anyone else.
As DM, I can set the DC for a PC’s deception/persuasion check in any darned manner I deem fit. And if that manner is by rolling Insight for the NPC, that is my prerogative.
If the PCs wish to make an insight check against an NPC, then it is completely within my power as DM to set the DC for that check by rolling Deception or Persuasion for the NPC.
I would roll persuasion against their Insight and if the persuasion was higher, I would emphasize how persuasive the NPC was.
Only thing that Charisma Persuasion is not an opposed check
Well, I could roll it against the PC’s passive insight, but players think rolling dice is fun, and I think it’s fun when my players are having fun, so I totally allow players to say:
”Can I make an insight check?”
I say “sure,” they roll, tell me their total, and I narrate the results. Basically the same as, well... every thing else in D&D.
Deception and Insight are solely skills for PCs to foil or uncover DMs plans. And they work as intended and are always contested by observer.
Persuasion on the other hand, wont work as it is always against set DC by DM.
E: So again answer to topic: Flat NO
I absolutely disagree with that 100%. They are not solely for that purpose, they are for anyone trying to deceive/persuade anyone else, or anyone trying to gain insight on anyone else.
As DM, I can set the DC for a PC’s deception/persuasion check in any darned manner I deem fit. And if that manner is by rolling Insight for the NPC, that is my prerogative.
If the PCs wish to make an insight check against an NPC, then it is completely within my power as DM to set the DC for that check by rolling Deception or Persuasion for the NPC.
I fail to see what basis there is for objection.
Well, if PC rolls Insight (Wis) against your npc to uncover something you just dont set DC you roll Deception (Cha) and use that = PC win you tell them
E: you as DM roll like all of us on contested checks, you dont just "set" them.
As DM, I can set the DC for a PC’s deception/persuasion check in any darned manner I deem fit. And if that manner is by rolling Insight for the NPC, that is my prerogative.
If the PCs wish to make an insight check against an NPC, then it is completely within my power as DM to set the DC for that check by rolling Deception or Persuasion for the NPC.
I fail to see what basis there is for objection.
Well, if PC rolls Insight (Wis) against your npc to uncover something you just dont set DC you roll Deception (Cha) and use that = PC win you tell them
If the PC wins an insight roll against an NPC, and the NPC is fibbing, then of course I would tell them that they find him dishonest. If they fail, I tell them they find him honest.
I fail to see wherein lies the issue with that method. 🤷♂️
I would roll persuasion against their Insight and if the persuasion was higher, I would emphasize how persuasive the NPC was.
Only thing that Charisma Persuasion is not an opposed check
Well, I could roll it against the PC’s passive insight, but players think rolling dice is fun, and I think it’s fun when my players are having fun, so I totally allow players to say:
”Can I make an insight check?”
I say “sure,” they roll, tell me their total, and I narrate the results. Basically the same as, well... every thing else in D&D.
Deception and Insight are solely skills for PCs to foil or uncover DMs plans. And they work as intended and are always contested by observer.
Persuasion on the other hand, wont work as it is always against set DC by DM.
E: So again answer to topic: Flat NO
I absolutely disagree with that 100%. They are not solely for that purpose, they are for anyone trying to deceive/persuade anyone else, or anyone trying to gain insight on anyone else.
As DM, I can set the DC for a PC’s deception/persuasion check in any darned manner I deem fit. And if that manner is by rolling Insight for the NPC, that is my prerogative.
If the PCs wish to make an insight check against an NPC, then it is completely within my power as DM to set the DC for that check by rolling Deception or Persuasion for the NPC.
I fail to see what basis there is for objection.
Well, if PC rolls Insight (Wis) against your npc to uncover something you just dont set DC you roll Deception (Cha) and use that = PC win you tell them
If the PC wins an insight roll against an NPC, and the NPC is fibbing, then of course I would tell them that they find him dishonest. If they fail, I tell them they find him honest.
I fail to see wherein lies the issue with that method.
Well no problem with that. But if you are DM dont ever set set DC for contested checks anymore.
As DM our npcs play same rules as players do. If PCs interact with em they roll, not set DC.
If they use Persuasion (charisma) to convert attitude of NPC then it IS against DC.
If the PC wins an insight roll against an NPC, and the NPC is fibbing, then of course I would tell them that they find him dishonest. If they fail, I tell them they find him honest.
I fail to see wherein lies the issue with that method.
Well no problem with that. But if you are DM dont ever set set DC for contested checks anymore.
As DM our npcs play same rules as players do. If PCs interact with em they roll, not set DC.
If they use Persuasion (charisma) to convert attitude of NPC then it IS against DC.
Three things:
I never have used set DCs for that stuff in the past 25+ years I have been D&Ding.
If the PCs want to use persuasion against an NPC, then I will continue to use the NPC’s Insight because that is my prerogative. Whatever advantage or disadvantage I impose on either roll is also up to me.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
I think saying what their characters discern without telling them what to think/do is fine. With persuasion, I think if they fail insight then to say, “you don’t think he/she is going to budge on this” is fine and they can choose what to do from there
If the PC wins an insight roll against an NPC, and the NPC is fibbing, then of course I would tell them that they find him dishonest. If they fail, I tell them they find him honest.
I fail to see wherein lies the issue with that method.
Well no problem with that. But if you are DM dont ever set set DC for contested checks anymore.
As DM our npcs play same rules as players do. If PCs interact with em they roll, not set DC.
If they use Persuasion (charisma) to convert attitude of NPC then it IS against DC.
Three things:
I never have used set DCs for that stuff in the past 25+ years I have been D&Ding.
If the PCs want to use persuasion against an NPC, then I will continue to use the NPC’s Insight because that is my prerogative. Whatever advantage or disadvantage I impose on either roll is also up to me.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
I set my DC any gorram way I please, including by rolling for it. If you don’t like it you can kiss my grits.
1. There are exact spells for this. This would make those spells useless and pointless.
2. It makes no sense for a dude to show up and convince someone to kill their spouse of 60 years. A cara salesman might be able to persuade you into buying a new car if you were already thinking about it. A random dude isn't going to convince you to give him your car, wife, house, and job just because he has a nice smile.
Persuasion is not a mind control spell.
Those are extremes and when DC's come into play. Manson didn't use magic to convince people to kill for him, but that was over looooong time with people who are easily manipulated, it's how cults start. You wouldn't be able to have an NPC come up and persuade a character to just jump off of a cliff, but he could convince him that he is trustworthy and should take on a job he has or that he is not the correct person the party is looking for. But all in all, yes skills should be used by both PCs and NPCs.
Yes skills should be used both ways. The question is "Should they 'work' on PCs." That to me is a bigger issue. Skills like persuasion shouldn't work on anyone. They should be rolls used to help players (I am considering the DM a player in this context) to see how good that idea sounded.
What Mason did was brain washing. Another topic for another time. Also convincing someone your trustworthy would be more of a deception versus insight contest. Convincing someone to take a job would fall under persuasion yes. But I would never tell my players their characters take it, nor would I let my players use it as mind control.
I'd simply say that the person presenting the job does seem to be making very valid points, and what he is saying is very compelling. Yet the choice, the agency as with real life, still lies in whether they want to act upon that or not.
The big issue is people do use it as mind control.
Player: "Give me your inn!"
Inn keeper: "Umm, no. This has been in my family for 5 generations. Plus is be poor with out it."
Player: "I rolled a 23 on persuasion, so he feels compelled to give me the inn."
No, no he doesn't. That's not how it works. Those rolls are used to convince someone to do something they're on the fence about, and even then its still a choice THEY MAKE. They are not used to get anyone to do anything you want at any time.
Well as you did respond to me, allow me to retort. Yes you are making a straw man argument as nowhere other than your examples has anyone including myself say it's mind control. Persuasion is a skill that can be used against players and should, but not in the ridiculous circumstance that you are putting forth that has no basis on anything anyone has said nor would it make any sense. Persuasion would be a commoner trying to get help from a character, how well they plead their case, how well a merchant convinces them of a price or quality of an item, whether the town guard is to be trusted, a local gang how dangerous they are..... TONS of ways for it to be used, and that it should be used, none of which are as extreme and illogical as what you have stated.
If you do not use persuasion and deception as you state because a roll should allow anything, I will propose the same straw man to you. You should not allow athletics checks either or I will have my barbarian roll a nat 20 that will allow him to pick up Waterdeep and hit a dragon with it. See, extreme and makes no sense as you persuasion check to have someone give away their inn.
As a DM you need to work your NPCs like th PCs do their characters. If you roll a low persuasion for them to convince a party of X, you should roll play that out and also let them know the NPC doesn't sound very convincing, or that the NPC is very passionate about their plea and that their story touches the characters deeply and that they feel compelled to at least give the NPC's story a discussion. But you are right, it's not mind control nor should it be, but nobody here other than you said it was.
1. There are exact spells for this. This would make those spells useless and pointless.
2. It makes no sense for a dude to show up and convince someone to kill their spouse of 60 years. A cara salesman might be able to persuade you into buying a new car if you were already thinking about it. A random dude isn't going to convince you to give him your car, wife, house, and job just because he has a nice smile.
Persuasion is not a mind control spell.
Those are extremes and when DC's come into play. Manson didn't use magic to convince people to kill for him, but that was over looooong time with people who are easily manipulated, it's how cults start. You wouldn't be able to have an NPC come up and persuade a character to just jump off of a cliff, but he could convince him that he is trustworthy and should take on a job he has or that he is not the correct person the party is looking for. But all in all, yes skills should be used by both PCs and NPCs.
Yes skills should be used both ways. The question is "Should they 'work' on PCs." That to me is a bigger issue. Skills like persuasion shouldn't work on anyone. They should be rolls used to help players (I am considering the DM a player in this context) to see how good that idea sounded.
What Mason did was brain washing. Another topic for another time. Also convincing someone your trustworthy would be more of a deception versus insight contest. Convincing someone to take a job would fall under persuasion yes. But I would never tell my players their characters take it, nor would I let my players use it as mind control.
I'd simply say that the person presenting the job does seem to be making very valid points, and what he is saying is very compelling. Yet the choice, the agency as with real life, still lies in whether they want to act upon that or not.
The big issue is people do use it as mind control.
Player: "Give me your inn!"
Inn keeper: "Umm, no. This has been in my family for 5 generations. Plus is be poor with out it."
Player: "I rolled a 23 on persuasion, so he feels compelled to give me the inn."
No, no he doesn't. That's not how it works. Those rolls are used to convince someone to do something they're on the fence about, and even then its still a choice THEY MAKE. They are not used to get anyone to do anything you want at any time.
Well as you did respond to me, allow me to retort. Yes you are making a straw man argument as nowhere other than your examples has anyone including myself say it's mind control. Persuasion is a skill that can be used against players and should, but not in the ridiculous circumstance that you are putting forth that has no basis on anything anyone has said nor would it make any sense. Persuasion would be a commoner trying to get help from a character, how well they plead their case, how well a merchant convinces them of a price or quality of an item, whether the town guard is to be trusted, a local gang how dangerous they are..... TONS of ways for it to be used, and that it should be used, none of which are as extreme and illogical as what you have stated.
If you do not use persuasion and deception as you state because a roll should allow anything, I will propose the same straw man to you. You should not allow athletics checks either or I will have my barbarian roll a nat 20 that will allow him to pick up Waterdeep and hit a dragon with it. See, extreme and makes no sense as you persuasion check to have someone give away their inn.
As a DM you need to work your NPCs like th PCs do their characters. If you roll a low persuasion for them to convince a party of X, you should roll play that out and also let them know the NPC doesn't sound very convincing, or that the NPC is very passionate about their plea and that their story touches the characters deeply and that they feel compelled to at least give the NPC's story a discussion. But you are right, it's not mind control nor should it be, but nobody here other than you said it was.
Boy oh boy. This horse has been beat to death.
My response was to the OP. Yes my response could be presumptive based on the fact that I responded based on my experience on how people generally treat these skills.
The fact that no one else in this thread said or did not say it was mind control is a moot point and irrelevant. I do not have to comb through dozens of posts and curate my response to what other people are saying. As forums function I am free to jump and say things totally unrelated to other peoples discussions as long as I am staying on topic of the original post.
Since the OP gave no parameters to what they fully meant, that leaves the door wide open to interpretation.
Me making a remark to the OP about how I don't think it should just "work" as its meant to be an aid in a skill and not something that just forces a situation. My response isn't a straw man.
The only straw man that has been going I is people wanting to put words into my mouth telling me what I meant and tearing that argument down. Much as you're doing right now.
I've explained several times already what I really meant.
Again we can sit here splitting hairs and debating a point I never made, or we can move on with the topic at hand.
Social skills, they're meant to be used in aiding people in situations.
Social skills, they're not meant to force people to do what you want.
Agree? Disagree? Either way lets please move on already. You're just beating a dead horse at this point.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
I set my DC any gorram way I please, including by rolling for it. If you don’t like it you can kiss my grits.
Well thats more than fine if your players are fine with it. No offense just said what is in rules and how I run my games.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
I set my DC any gorram way I please, including by rolling for it. If you don’t like it you can kiss my grits.
Well thats more than fine if your players are fine with it. No offense just said what is in rules and how I run my games.
If you think what you've been talking about is rules, then you're incorrect. Any appropriate skill can be applied to a contest. It's entirely the DM's prerogative. That is the rule.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
I set my DC any gorram way I please, including by rolling for it. If you don’t like it you can kiss my grits.
Well thats more than fine if your players are fine with it. No offense just said what is in rules and how I run my games.
If you think what you've been talking about is rules, then you're incorrect. Any appropriate skill can be applied to a contest. It's entirely the DM's prerogative. That is the rule.
Of course DM is God, but best DM is the one that plays by the rules. So that's why.
<redacted> - MOD NOTE: Please do not make personal attacks against another user.
E: And again there are certain skills that are meant for contest. Persuasion and Intimidation are not one of these.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
I set my DC any gorram way I please, including by rolling for it. If you don’t like it you can kiss my grits.
Well thats more than fine if your players are fine with it. No offense just said what is in rules and how I run my games.
If you think what you've been talking about is rules, then you're incorrect. Any appropriate skill can be applied to a contest. It's entirely the DM's prerogative. That is the rule.
Of course DM is God, but best DM is the one that plays by the rules. So that's why.
Again, the rules are that the DM call for a contest any time two characters are pitting their efforts against one another. There is nothing that prevents the persuasion skill from applying if the situation is appropriate. I would encourage you to actually read the PHB and DMG and wait until you know a little more about the game before you start telling people they're "fked up" when they're literally playing by the book.
Do not ever tell me what not to do as a DM again. I have been at this for over two and a half decades. You might make suggestions. I might even take them if I think they’re good. But do not ever presume to order me to change my DMing style again. Ever.
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
I set my DC any gorram way I please, including by rolling for it. If you don’t like it you can kiss my grits.
Well thats more than fine if your players are fine with it. No offense just said what is in rules and how I run my games.
If you think what you've been talking about is rules, then you're incorrect. Any appropriate skill can be applied to a contest. It's entirely the DM's prerogative. That is the rule.
Of course DM is God, but best DM is the one that plays by the rules. So that's why.
Again, the rules are that the DM call for a contest any time two characters are pitting their efforts against one another. There is nothing that prevents the persuasion skill from applying if the situation is appropriate. I would encourage you to actually read the PHB and DMG and wait until you know a little more about the game before you start telling people they're "fked up" when they're literally playing by the book.
Is it DM character or PC Vs. NPC? Who are fighting ? If it is PC fighting some force and they use persuade - > set DC simple.
E: Persuasion is not a contested not how much you want to.
Only thing that Charisma Persuasion is not an opposed check
E: Its against a set DC set by DM
Well, I could roll it against the PC’s passive insight, but players think rolling dice is fun, and I think it’s fun when my players are having fun, so I totally allow players to say:
”Can I make an insight check?”
I say “sure,” they roll, tell me their total, and I narrate the results. Basically the same as, well... every thing else in D&D.
I just set the DC by rolling the appropriate skill for the NPC.
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Social skills have no defined effect on PCs, but they barely have defined effects on NPCs either. There's some temptation to use them as the target number to evaluate situations:
Perhaps it was presumptuous of me to think the way I did because I commonly seen people try and it as mind control.
My post again wasn't based on anything anyone has said. It was a straight up answer to what the OP asked based on my experience. Yes I did bring up examples that didn't pertain to already going on conversations. Which is acceptable and I explained why.
I've also explained enough now that I don't think it should "work" as mind control, but should be an aid in helping social decision making. At this point it's basically splitting hairs "But you used this word." Yes I did, and I've explained to you why I did. So I dunno why you got to keep telling me about what word I used.
Social skills, should they aid in decision making. Yes.
Social skills, are they mind control that works in compelling the intended target? No.
Either we agree on that or not. Really no reason to keep dwelling on bygone words :)
Deception and Insight are solely skills for PCs to foil or uncover DMs plans. And they work as intended and are always contested by observer.
Persuasion on the other hand, wont work as it is always against set DC by DM.
E: So again answer to topic: Flat NO
I absolutely disagree with that 100%. They are not solely for that purpose, they are for anyone trying to deceive/persuade anyone else, or anyone trying to gain insight on anyone else.
As DM, I can set the DC for a PC’s deception/persuasion check in any darned manner I deem fit. And if that manner is by rolling Insight for the NPC, that is my prerogative.
If the PCs wish to make an insight check against an NPC, then it is completely within my power as DM to set the DC for that check by rolling Deception or Persuasion for the NPC.
I fail to see what basis there is for objection.
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Well, if PC rolls Insight (Wis) against your npc to uncover something you just dont set DC you roll Deception (Cha) and use that = PC win you tell them
E: you as DM roll like all of us on contested checks, you dont just "set" them.
If the PC wins an insight roll against an NPC, and the NPC is fibbing, then of course I would tell them that they find him dishonest. If they fail, I tell them they find him honest.
I fail to see wherein lies the issue with that method. 🤷♂️
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Well no problem with that. But if you are DM dont ever set set DC for contested checks anymore.
As DM our npcs play same rules as players do. If PCs interact with em they roll, not set DC.
If they use Persuasion (charisma) to convert attitude of NPC then it IS against DC.
Three things:
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I think saying what their characters discern without telling them what to think/do is fine. With persuasion, I think if they fail insight then to say, “you don’t think he/she is going to budge on this” is fine and they can choose what to do from there
2. Persuasion is against set DC set by DM. Period.
Insight (Wisdom) is used against Deception (Charisma).
3. No I wont say what to do but if you do do it right.
I set my DC any gorram way I please, including by rolling for it. If you don’t like it you can kiss my grits.
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Well as you did respond to me, allow me to retort. Yes you are making a straw man argument as nowhere other than your examples has anyone including myself say it's mind control. Persuasion is a skill that can be used against players and should, but not in the ridiculous circumstance that you are putting forth that has no basis on anything anyone has said nor would it make any sense. Persuasion would be a commoner trying to get help from a character, how well they plead their case, how well a merchant convinces them of a price or quality of an item, whether the town guard is to be trusted, a local gang how dangerous they are..... TONS of ways for it to be used, and that it should be used, none of which are as extreme and illogical as what you have stated.
If you do not use persuasion and deception as you state because a roll should allow anything, I will propose the same straw man to you. You should not allow athletics checks either or I will have my barbarian roll a nat 20 that will allow him to pick up Waterdeep and hit a dragon with it. See, extreme and makes no sense as you persuasion check to have someone give away their inn.
As a DM you need to work your NPCs like th PCs do their characters. If you roll a low persuasion for them to convince a party of X, you should roll play that out and also let them know the NPC doesn't sound very convincing, or that the NPC is very passionate about their plea and that their story touches the characters deeply and that they feel compelled to at least give the NPC's story a discussion. But you are right, it's not mind control nor should it be, but nobody here other than you said it was.
Boy oh boy. This horse has been beat to death.
My response was to the OP. Yes my response could be presumptive based on the fact that I responded based on my experience on how people generally treat these skills.
The fact that no one else in this thread said or did not say it was mind control is a moot point and irrelevant. I do not have to comb through dozens of posts and curate my response to what other people are saying. As forums function I am free to jump and say things totally unrelated to other peoples discussions as long as I am staying on topic of the original post.
Since the OP gave no parameters to what they fully meant, that leaves the door wide open to interpretation.
Me making a remark to the OP about how I don't think it should just "work" as its meant to be an aid in a skill and not something that just forces a situation. My response isn't a straw man.
The only straw man that has been going I is people wanting to put words into my mouth telling me what I meant and tearing that argument down. Much as you're doing right now.
I've explained several times already what I really meant.
Again we can sit here splitting hairs and debating a point I never made, or we can move on with the topic at hand.
Social skills, they're meant to be used in aiding people in situations.
Social skills, they're not meant to force people to do what you want.
Agree? Disagree? Either way lets please move on already. You're just beating a dead horse at this point.
Well thats more than fine if your players are fine with it. No offense just said what is in rules and how I run my games.
If you think what you've been talking about is rules, then you're incorrect. Any appropriate skill can be applied to a contest. It's entirely the DM's prerogative. That is the rule.
Of course DM is God, but best DM is the one that plays by the rules. So that's why.
<redacted> - MOD NOTE: Please do not make personal attacks against another user.
E: And again there are certain skills that are meant for contest. Persuasion and Intimidation are not one of these.
Again, the rules are that the DM call for a contest any time two characters are pitting their efforts against one another. There is nothing that prevents the persuasion skill from applying if the situation is appropriate. I would encourage you to actually read the PHB and DMG and wait until you know a little more about the game before you start telling people they're "fked up" when they're literally playing by the book.
Is it DM character or PC Vs. NPC? Who are fighting ? If it is PC fighting some force and they use persuade - > set DC simple.
E: Persuasion is not a contested not how much you want to.