First the questions: 1- When I dm, I just allow my players to pay with loots. Not equipment, but things likes "a ruby worth 25 gp" is like giving a shop owner 25 gp. How do you guys handle it?
2- What about town where there's price inflation in the shops?
The rant: I'm playing a campaign where everything cost 10x the price in the shop. So the DM judge that the loot is worth 10x less as well. They stack.
So I wanted to buy 10gp worth of coal and incense to cast find familiar. He asked me for 1000 gp worth of loot. I want to copy a spell in my spell book, it's 10x the price if I pay in gp or 100x the price if I pay in loot. All our ressources are loot. I'm level 3 and he asked for 5000gp to transcribe a level 1 spell, or 10,000gp to transcribe a level 2 spell.
Is it just me or is that a really weird call?
Public Mod Note
(Davyd):
Moved to Dungeon Masters Only
Unless you are playing a game where not having resources is intended, that is absurdly expensive. You should talk to your DM about lowering the prices for transcribing spells, since it seriously hurts wizards if they can't.
(Plate armor would cost 150,000 GP. That would take over four hundred years for a skilled artisan to make that much money.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
First the questions: 1- When I dm, I just allow my players to pay with loots. Not equipment, but things likes "a ruby worth 25 gp" is like giving a shop owner 25 gp. How do you guys handle it?
2- What about town where there's price inflation in the shops?
The rant: I'm playing a campaign where everything cost 10x the price in the shop. So the DM judge that the loot is worth 10x less as well. They stack.
So I wanted to buy 10gp worth of coal and incense to cast find familiar. He asked me for 1000 gp worth of loot. I want to copy a spell in my spell book, it's 10x the price if I pay in gp or 100x the price if I pay in loot. All our ressources are loot. I'm level 3 and he asked for 5000gp to transcribe a level 1 spell, or 10,000gp to transcribe a level 2 spell.
Is it just me or is that a really weird call?
It's not just you; that's a terrible call, and is a direct contradiction of the basic rules statement on the subject.
Trade Goods and Other
On the borderlands, many people conduct transactions through barter. Like gems and art objects, trade goods--bars of iron, bags of salt, livestock, and so on--retain their full value in the market and can be used as currency.
That type of loot is literally intended to be the equivalent of cash.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How your DM is doing it is not how economics works. If everything is more expensive, then the loot would not also be devalued. It should also be worth roughly 10x as much, since that is the going price for the commodity. That’s just the way markets work. If you try to sell a (typically 15gp) longsword, and it’s costs 150 gp everywhere in town, it makes no sense for a shopkeeper to only give you 1.5 gp. In that case, you’re better off standing on the street and selling it to a random person so you can get the full 150. It would make sense for them to give you, say, 100 for it so they can make a profit, but no one worries about that. Largely because D&D does not work as an economics simulator. Maybe your DM thought they gave your party too much treasure and they are trying to peel some of it back? Or like Joel said, maybe they have a plan for making things hard to get for some reason. I’d say talk out of character and try to sort it out. There may be a sensible reason they are not sharing with you.
I'm with Xalthu here, that economy is messed up and would upset my suspension of disbelief. I would talk to your DM (always the best answer), but if you want an in-game solution you could try to do things to point out the absurdity. Open your own shop/cart and price the competition out of business. Intercept people trying to sell items to the established shops and buy for 10x cheaper. Basically just do stuff to point out that your DM has imposed a metagame difference between PCs and NPCs with respect to the economy.
First the questions: 1- When I dm, I just allow my players to pay with loots. Not equipment, but things likes "a ruby worth 25 gp" is like giving a shop owner 25 gp. How do you guys handle it?
I'm not sure if my players have tried this yet but if they do, I will generally allow "in kind" payment, provided it makes sense for the shop owner. The guy at the trading post will take just about anything (like a swap meet). On the other hand, the herbalist is not going to take payment in swords and armor. But she might take a ruby. And she would absolutely take things like herbs or potions.
2- What about town where there's price inflation in the shops?
I can't be bothered to track that or come up with an algorithm for it, so no. If they try to sell too much for straight gold to a single shop owner eventually the person will run out and offer store stock in exchange. Again, different vendors have different amounts of "ready cash" on hand. The trading post guy probably has more... the herbalist less.
The rant: I'm playing a campaign where everything cost 10x the price in the shop. So the DM judge that the loot is worth 10x less as well. They stack.
So I wanted to buy 10gp worth of coal and incense to cast find familiar. He asked me for 1000 gp worth of loot. I want to copy a spell in my spell book, it's 10x the price if I pay in gp or 100x the price if I pay in loot. All our ressources are loot. I'm level 3 and he asked for 5000gp to transcribe a level 1 spell, or 10,000gp to transcribe a level 2 spell.
Is it just me or is that a really weird call?
I certainly wouldn't do that as a DM. I mean 10,000 gp for a level 2 spell? That's way out there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
And also as Xalthu said, it doesn't make sense that a sword would cost you 150 gp to buy but you could only sell it for 1.5 gp. Economies don't work that way.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That is very unrealistic, both with the real and dnd worlds
when inflation happens, everything is more valuable, so like people are saying, if a sword normally sells for 15 gp, it would now sell for 150 gp. and when a job would normally pay 5 gp, it would now pay 50 gp. the only reason inflation is bad, is that every time it happens, you old money is less valuable. so say, every night everything inflates by 1000%. so if you go to bed with 100 gp, you still have that much when you wake up, but its basically 10 gp, because the things that used to cost 100 now cost 1000, and so on.
its also unrealistic with the dnd world. seriously, 150,000 gp for plate!??!?!? you could buy a legendary magic item with that.
if i were you, i would seriously consider bringing it up with the dm.
If you are the DM, it is your call. I see nothing wrong with it and it is reasonable.
I would say don't play with inflation idea unless the sourcebook told you so.
You will learn that inflation is a much more complex idea if you take monetary policy class at 3rd year. It is hard to translate into a model that is really supporting it.
It will mass up the game balance
I would walk away from that table because I don't think it is fun. The DM has no clue that
How inflation work
How to balance the game
he is running a super hardcore mode and didn't tell you guys at section 0
Plus, if the DM is simply trying to diminish the relative value of actual currency, then the value of trade items should be higher (proportionally) when used for bartering purposes.
I.e., if the purchasing power of 1GP is deflated by a factor of 10, then a goat worth 1GP would cost 10GP to purchase, while selling one for currency yields only 1GP. As such, if I were bartering for the sale of a pig worth 3GP, then the pig itself has an actual trade value of 30GP. A savvy trader may readily offer 3 goats in exchange for the 1 pig, and that's a good deal for both parties. The seller receives 3 goats of equivalent value to the pig they sold, which could be individually bargained to another trader for other useful goods & services without losing value from the exchange to currency. The new owner of the pig can either sell it for full price (30GP) to someone with currency, or bartered again for a more beneficial trade. Either way, the trader has reduced the amount of transactions necessary to yield full value of their stock.
This type of system where currency has a diminished purchasing power only works in an environment of a non-free market. Merchants in these economic systems typically require an official to grant them the privilege of engaging in mercantile activities. They are authorized to make purchases & sales, for which a portion of proceeds would be taxed, and can demand the goods that they sell for currency be sold at the highest rate. Contrarily, Joe Schmo with no credentials is stuck with what a licensed merchant offers, and local authorities are unlikely to overlook them trying to set up an unauthorized market stall.
None of that lines up with what it sounds like the OP's DM is doing, which seems to be only punishing the PCs.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't see the point of giving out treasure and then making it worthless. If the DM wants to make the players less "rich" then just give out less treasure. This is under the DM's control -- it's not like it's a video game and the players are "farming" or something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
if you want an in-game solution you could try to do things to point out the absurdity. Open your own shop/cart and price the competition out of business. Intercept people trying to sell items to the established shops and buy for 10x cheaper.
I am genuinely interested in this idea, and as a DM would be wholly impressed if a player/character spent half a session disrupting the local economy.
I played in a game like that. Let me guess, Ravenloft?
The sourcebook says, "the chest contains a silver mirror worth 100gp" so the GM tells us, "the mirror is worth 100GP" but when we actually try to use it, the (only) shopkeeper only offers 10GP. Similarly, buying items is 10× the price (100GP for a shield? Really?).
However, our pay never reflected this. A town leader offered us 2gp for a job. We said, "Wait, inflation, we want 20gp a day" but the GM said "no".
But, wait, it gets better. We bought a gem from a merchant, handing over 100GP gold. We then tried to use it as a spell component. The GM said, "No, that's not a 100GP gem, it's a 10GP gem."
That's the point where I just said to the GM "this is —!" The character handed over 100GP of loot for that gem, so surely it is a 100GP gem. Otherwise, what is the point of costs?
I don't know what your answer is. For me, this was one of the reasons I pulled out of the game. Other players just had their characters turn to thievery.
In hindsight, we should have started a protection racket. "Well, Mr Shopkeeper, that's a lot of coins you now have lying around your shop. It would be a pity if someone were to rob you and steal it, wouldn't it? Well, we know a group of adventurers who would would be happy to keep your gold safe. For fair pay, of course. Skilled hirelings go at 2GP per day, but this is a time of inflation, as you told us, so lets call that 20GP per day. Each, for 6 of us. You know, since we are friends here, lets call it an even 150GP per day. *big smile*"
Well, I do have shopkeepers offer less than max value for items -- they need to make a profit. But I usually offer 75-80% of retail value, and a successful persuasion can push that to 90% or so. So if a sword is worth 15 gp, and you sell it at the trading post, the proprietor would offer say 11 or 12 GP for it. If you persuade successfully he might go up to 13 GP 5 silver. He's not going above that because, as he would say, "I have to make money too." He would go out of business offering just what he can re-sell it for.
But the flip side is I do not do shop mark-ups. So if the book says a sword is worth 15 gp, I usually have it cost 15. The other way to do it would be to let the shopkeep pay the 15, but then mark it up for sale, say charging 17 or 18 for the same sword. Of course, things may vary by region. In Rome you can find everything and it's going to be book price. In an outlying town, some things may be unavailable at all, and others may be more expensive due to local rarity. And others might be cheap because the town makes them here.
This sounds like Skyrim to me, where you sell a sword to a shopkeeper for 20gp and then when you realize you messed up he says he'll take 140gp if you want to buy it.
A modest amount of transaction overhead is understandable, like 10-20% below retail to buy the stuff you don't need, but a full 100x price swing is ... cringeworthy.
Concerning the gems, the retail price is the "value" of the gem. If they are going to pay you 10gp for a gem that is valued at 1000gp then we're back to ... cringeworthy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Generally, I allow players to sell nonmagical weapons and armor for half its listed price, under the assumption that if they were taken as loot from bandits or monsters they're probably worn and not in very good condition, lowering the price. Stuff like gems, artwork, and trade goods can be traded at value.
Also, as a side note, any GM who insists that a gem the party payed 1000 gp for is only a 10 gp gem needs to have dice thrown at their head until their INT and WIS get up to double digits.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
First the questions:
1- When I dm, I just allow my players to pay with loots. Not equipment, but things likes "a ruby worth 25 gp" is like giving a shop owner 25 gp. How do you guys handle it?
2- What about town where there's price inflation in the shops?
The rant: I'm playing a campaign where everything cost 10x the price in the shop. So the DM judge that the loot is worth 10x less as well. They stack.
So I wanted to buy 10gp worth of coal and incense to cast find familiar. He asked me for 1000 gp worth of loot. I want to copy a spell in my spell book, it's 10x the price if I pay in gp or 100x the price if I pay in loot. All our ressources are loot. I'm level 3 and he asked for 5000gp to transcribe a level 1 spell, or 10,000gp to transcribe a level 2 spell.
Is it just me or is that a really weird call?
Unless you are playing a game where not having resources is intended, that is absurdly expensive. You should talk to your DM about lowering the prices for transcribing spells, since it seriously hurts wizards if they can't.
(Plate armor would cost 150,000 GP. That would take over four hundred years for a skilled artisan to make that much money.)
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
It's not just you; that's a terrible call, and is a direct contradiction of the basic rules statement on the subject.
That type of loot is literally intended to be the equivalent of cash.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How your DM is doing it is not how economics works. If everything is more expensive, then the loot would not also be devalued. It should also be worth roughly 10x as much, since that is the going price for the commodity. That’s just the way markets work. If you try to sell a (typically 15gp) longsword, and it’s costs 150 gp everywhere in town, it makes no sense for a shopkeeper to only give you 1.5 gp. In that case, you’re better off standing on the street and selling it to a random person so you can get the full 150. It would make sense for them to give you, say, 100 for it so they can make a profit, but no one worries about that. Largely because D&D does not work as an economics simulator. Maybe your DM thought they gave your party too much treasure and they are trying to peel some of it back? Or like Joel said, maybe they have a plan for making things hard to get for some reason.
I’d say talk out of character and try to sort it out. There may be a sensible reason they are not sharing with you.
I'm with Xalthu here, that economy is messed up and would upset my suspension of disbelief. I would talk to your DM (always the best answer), but if you want an in-game solution you could try to do things to point out the absurdity. Open your own shop/cart and price the competition out of business. Intercept people trying to sell items to the established shops and buy for 10x cheaper. Basically just do stuff to point out that your DM has imposed a metagame difference between PCs and NPCs with respect to the economy.
I'm not sure if my players have tried this yet but if they do, I will generally allow "in kind" payment, provided it makes sense for the shop owner. The guy at the trading post will take just about anything (like a swap meet). On the other hand, the herbalist is not going to take payment in swords and armor. But she might take a ruby. And she would absolutely take things like herbs or potions.
I can't be bothered to track that or come up with an algorithm for it, so no. If they try to sell too much for straight gold to a single shop owner eventually the person will run out and offer store stock in exchange. Again, different vendors have different amounts of "ready cash" on hand. The trading post guy probably has more... the herbalist less.
I certainly wouldn't do that as a DM. I mean 10,000 gp for a level 2 spell? That's way out there.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yeah, 10,000 GP is more than the cost of a whole wizard's tower.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Yes, it is very high.
And also as Xalthu said, it doesn't make sense that a sword would cost you 150 gp to buy but you could only sell it for 1.5 gp. Economies don't work that way.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That is very unrealistic, both with the real and dnd worlds
when inflation happens, everything is more valuable, so like people are saying, if a sword normally sells for 15 gp, it would now sell for 150 gp. and when a job would normally pay 5 gp, it would now pay 50 gp. the only reason inflation is bad, is that every time it happens, you old money is less valuable. so say, every night everything inflates by 1000%. so if you go to bed with 100 gp, you still have that much when you wake up, but its basically 10 gp, because the things that used to cost 100 now cost 1000, and so on.
its also unrealistic with the dnd world. seriously, 150,000 gp for plate!??!?!? you could buy a legendary magic item with that.
if i were you, i would seriously consider bringing it up with the dm.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
Plus, if the DM is simply trying to diminish the relative value of actual currency, then the value of trade items should be higher (proportionally) when used for bartering purposes.
I.e., if the purchasing power of 1GP is deflated by a factor of 10, then a goat worth 1GP would cost 10GP to purchase, while selling one for currency yields only 1GP. As such, if I were bartering for the sale of a pig worth 3GP, then the pig itself has an actual trade value of 30GP. A savvy trader may readily offer 3 goats in exchange for the 1 pig, and that's a good deal for both parties. The seller receives 3 goats of equivalent value to the pig they sold, which could be individually bargained to another trader for other useful goods & services without losing value from the exchange to currency. The new owner of the pig can either sell it for full price (30GP) to someone with currency, or bartered again for a more beneficial trade. Either way, the trader has reduced the amount of transactions necessary to yield full value of their stock.
This type of system where currency has a diminished purchasing power only works in an environment of a non-free market. Merchants in these economic systems typically require an official to grant them the privilege of engaging in mercantile activities. They are authorized to make purchases & sales, for which a portion of proceeds would be taxed, and can demand the goods that they sell for currency be sold at the highest rate. Contrarily, Joe Schmo with no credentials is stuck with what a licensed merchant offers, and local authorities are unlikely to overlook them trying to set up an unauthorized market stall.
None of that lines up with what it sounds like the OP's DM is doing, which seems to be only punishing the PCs.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't see the point of giving out treasure and then making it worthless. If the DM wants to make the players less "rich" then just give out less treasure. This is under the DM's control -- it's not like it's a video game and the players are "farming" or something.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I am genuinely interested in this idea, and as a DM would be wholly impressed if a player/character spent half a session disrupting the local economy.
Boldly go
Ugh.
I played in a game like that. Let me guess, Ravenloft?
The sourcebook says, "the chest contains a silver mirror worth 100gp" so the GM tells us, "the mirror is worth 100GP" but when we actually try to use it, the (only) shopkeeper only offers 10GP. Similarly, buying items is 10× the price (100GP for a shield? Really?).
However, our pay never reflected this. A town leader offered us 2gp for a job. We said, "Wait, inflation, we want 20gp a day" but the GM said "no".
But, wait, it gets better. We bought a gem from a merchant, handing over 100GP gold. We then tried to use it as a spell component. The GM said, "No, that's not a 100GP gem, it's a 10GP gem."
That's the point where I just said to the GM "this is —!" The character handed over 100GP of loot for that gem, so surely it is a 100GP gem. Otherwise, what is the point of costs?
I don't know what your answer is. For me, this was one of the reasons I pulled out of the game. Other players just had their characters turn to thievery.
In hindsight, we should have started a protection racket. "Well, Mr Shopkeeper, that's a lot of coins you now have lying around your shop. It would be a pity if someone were to rob you and steal it, wouldn't it? Well, we know a group of adventurers who would would be happy to keep your gold safe. For fair pay, of course. Skilled hirelings go at 2GP per day, but this is a time of inflation, as you told us, so lets call that 20GP per day. Each, for 6 of us. You know, since we are friends here, lets call it an even 150GP per day. *big smile*"
Well, I do have shopkeepers offer less than max value for items -- they need to make a profit. But I usually offer 75-80% of retail value, and a successful persuasion can push that to 90% or so. So if a sword is worth 15 gp, and you sell it at the trading post, the proprietor would offer say 11 or 12 GP for it. If you persuade successfully he might go up to 13 GP 5 silver. He's not going above that because, as he would say, "I have to make money too." He would go out of business offering just what he can re-sell it for.
But the flip side is I do not do shop mark-ups. So if the book says a sword is worth 15 gp, I usually have it cost 15. The other way to do it would be to let the shopkeep pay the 15, but then mark it up for sale, say charging 17 or 18 for the same sword. Of course, things may vary by region. In Rome you can find everything and it's going to be book price. In an outlying town, some things may be unavailable at all, and others may be more expensive due to local rarity. And others might be cheap because the town makes them here.
But... marking up 1,000% is just ridiculous.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
This sounds like Skyrim to me, where you sell a sword to a shopkeeper for 20gp and then when you realize you messed up he says he'll take 140gp if you want to buy it.
A modest amount of transaction overhead is understandable, like 10-20% below retail to buy the stuff you don't need, but a full 100x price swing is ... cringeworthy.
Concerning the gems, the retail price is the "value" of the gem. If they are going to pay you 10gp for a gem that is valued at 1000gp then we're back to ... cringeworthy.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Generally, I allow players to sell nonmagical weapons and armor for half its listed price, under the assumption that if they were taken as loot from bandits or monsters they're probably worn and not in very good condition, lowering the price. Stuff like gems, artwork, and trade goods can be traded at value.
Also, as a side note, any GM who insists that a gem the party payed 1000 gp for is only a 10 gp gem needs to have dice thrown at their head until their INT and WIS get up to double digits.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.