I am a newish DM and my players have taken to abusing a certain spell and I have no clue how to limit this.
They are casting Leomunds tiny hut at the beginning of combat, then just jumping in and out of the hut to attack then hide again. It is making encounters repetitive and mildly broken because I can't figure out how to get them out.
Are you saying they're casting it after combat starts? Because that spell has a casting time of 1 minute; it takes 10 rounds to cast. They're not be able to just cast it on a whim as an action.
I am a newish DM and my players have taken to abusing a certain spell and I have no clue how to limit this.
They are casting Leomunds tiny hut at the beginning of combat, then just jumping in and out of the hut to attack then hide again. It is making encounters repetitive and mildly broken because I can't figure out how to get them out.
Any ideas?
Just have opponents ready an action to attack them as soon as they come out, or put in some enemy spellcasters with counterspell or dispel magic.
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How are your encounters lasting so long? In my experience most encounters only last 3-6 rounds. Also, they do have to concentrate while casting the spell, lose concentration on any other spells they might've had and can't take any other actions in the meantime, so simply damaging the caster a few times will likely cause them to lose the spell. Plus they should only have so many 3rd level slots to spend on this.
How are your encounters lasting so long? In my experience most encounters only last 3-6 rounds. Also, they do have to concentrate while casting the spell, lose concentration on any other spells they might've had and can't take any other actions in the meantime, so simply damaging the caster a few times will likely cause them to lose the spell. Plus they should only have so many 3rd level slots to spend on this.
I have 7 players, so 70% of those 10 rounds are people who aren't going to attack the spellcaster. They are level 7, so this is a relatively new strategy, but its already getting old
How are your encounters lasting so long? In my experience most encounters only last 3-6 rounds. Also, they do have to concentrate while casting the spell, lose concentration on any other spells they might've had and can't take any other actions in the meantime, so simply damaging the caster a few times will likely cause them to lose the spell. Plus they should only have so many 3rd level slots to spend on this.
I have 7 players, so 70% of those 10 rounds are people who aren't going to attack the spellcaster. They are level 7, so this is a relatively new strategy, but its already getting old
AOE spells will get the spell caster to have to make that concentration roll.
Also, any enemy with ranged weapons will probably target a caster, since they appear to be trying to perform some sort of powerful ritual - best to kill them before they complete the ritual!
And also, when my party was 7th+ level a combat still didn't last 10 rounds - so maybe the rest of your party with turn to the caster and get them to cast something more useful instead of not participating in the combat at all.
I have 7 players, so 70% of those 10 rounds are people who aren't going to attack the spellcaster. They are level 7, so this is a relatively new strategy, but its already getting old
Sorry if i'm completely off base, but something just struck me about the way you phrased the above - are you treating each player/npc/monster's turn as a Round? If so, that's what is causing you the problems here - one Round is elapsed only once every player/npc/monster has taken a turn.
Anyway, your original question: Have you considered having the opponents falling back to another area of the dungeon/out of range of the players? It would make sense for intelligent enemies to retreat if they can't dispel or otherwise deal with the hut, and your players have only got so many 3rd level spell slots a day to waste on nonsense like this.
I'm also wondering if this is indicative of a more general issue? It might be worth having a discussion with them and explaining that this sort of cheese tactic is causing you to not have fun while playing.
I am a newish DM and my players have taken to abusing a certain spell and I have no clue how to limit this.
They are casting Leomunds tiny hut at the beginning of combat, then just jumping in and out of the hut to attack then hide again. It is making encounters repetitive and mildly broken because I can't figure out how to get them out.
Any ideas?
Don't stage encounters in situations where they can do that. It takes a long time to cast the spell, and that's plenty of time for the monsters to either kill the PCs or go somewhere else.
As Killerwraith418 mentioned, it sounds like you’re counting each actor’s (NPC/PC) action as a round. A round is a set of everyone’s actions, once through in initiative order. That alone should resolve the issue, as the cast won’t finish before combat ends.
Since you self-identified as “newish”, I’ll throw another few ideas out there.
Use their own tricks: If PCs are jumping in and out of complete cover, have all NPCs hold readied actions to attack the first available target. The alpha strike could down a pc, or inflict that massive damage check. Damage greater than half a creature or npcs hp max causes a death toll for instant death.
The enemy communicates: Your PCs have found a strategic way to use spells or items that is too close to “cheesing it”. Let the PCs have their outstanding success in the first encounter, but let at least one enemy escape. Next time, the enemy is wise to their tricks and has a counter. Anti-magic bubble, counter-spelling npcs, etc.
I have 7 players, so 70% of those 10 rounds are people who aren't going to attack the spellcaster. They are level 7, so this is a relatively new strategy, but its already getting old
Sorry if i'm completely off base, but something just struck me about the way you phrased the above - are you treating each player/npc/monster's turn as a Round? If so, that's what is causing you the problems here - one Round is elapsed only once every player/npc/monster has taken a turn.
Anyway, your original question: Have you considered having the opponents falling back to another area of the dungeon/out of range of the players? It would make sense for intelligent enemies to retreat if they can't dispel or otherwise deal with the hut, and your players have only got so many 3rd level spell slots a day to waste on nonsense like this.
I'm also wondering if this is indicative of a more general issue? It might be worth having a discussion with them and explaining that this sort of cheese tactic is causing you to not have fun while playing.
Thank you so much! That was the problem! Jeez, I need to read the rules more carefully
Although I am not normally a huge fan of the YouTube based D&D "TV shows" like Critical Role, you might wanna watch one or two episodes just to see how combat is run. If you are having trouble with things like how combat rounds work and what happens during a combat round, watching someone actually do it live might help you out. I think Critical Role Season 2, episode 1 has a fight at the end of it. It's a long slog to get to the fight, and the whole first part of the show is them introducing it, which is boring. But if you can stick it out, there is a fight with some zombies at the end, which should be very helpful in understanding how combat works. You could also try "D&D with High School students" which is a very slow start as well but Bill Allan is teaching H.S. kids how to play so he explains everything very well. You may have to poke around and watch some stuff that isn't super interesting to get to the combat, but I think it may help you to see combat actually staged round by round, with the initiative orders, how players declare their targets, when rolls are made, and so forth.
Now mind you, I am not saying you should try to run anything like Matt Mercer (the CR DM) or Bill Allan (the HS DM) -- you need to develop your own style. But those two do know how to run a D&D battle and you will get to see how it is normally done.
EDIT:
D&D with HS students, ep. 2, around 14:30 into it - wolves attack the party, first combat the kids get into:
Just keep in mind Bill uses some house rules designed to make the game a little easier/more fun for students (he has his own special way of doing crits, and I think his flanking rules are slightly different as well).
The casting time for that spell is really long. So just have the fights end before 10 rounds are up. The player doing it will get tired of doing nothing for the whole fight multiple fights in a row.
If they do actually pull it off, have the bad guys run away. The hut can't move.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Thank you so much! That was the problem! Jeez, I need to read the rules more carefully
We used to use Segments -> Rounds -> Turns back in 2e so as someone who just recently switched from 2e to 5e I will be the first to admit that time still trips me up from time to time, haha. Hope this revelation sorts out the issue for you.
Alternative would be to, as someone else suggested, have whatever they're fighting fall back out of range of Leomund's Tiny Hut and prepare. Either that or give something in the bad-guy camp either Counterspell or Dispel Magic. :3
It's also noteworthy that the tiny hut allows for anyone within the bubble to move through it, and prevents anyone outside from doing so, so all you have to do is get some enemies inside (maybe some with area effects to try and force the players to move away) before the last turn needed for the spell to finish. The bad guys should try and push forward to within 10ft of the caster. Any players outside of 10ft when the spell starts cannot move inside. Perhaps include some subterranean monsters who can ambush them after they make the hut, from just under the caster.
A horde of smaller enemies appearing after the 8th round (so 2 turns before the hut appears) and swarming in could prevent it - more than 9 creatures in the dome will cause the spell to fail. Alternatively, if an enemy makes it into the dome before it seals off, he can grapple or push the caster out of the area, causing it to fail. That is, of course, if they still want to try and cast it now it's going to take so much longer!
In terms of tactics... if the situation calls for the PCs to say, stop enemies from doing something, and they all hide inside the hut, there's nothing preventing the enemy from just walking away from the hut and going to do whatever it is they want to do. The hut assumes a stationary battlefield -- a moving battlefield will completely negate it, as enemies move out of range.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Sounds like you’ve got it solved, but you might be able to leverage this as well: “The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures.” 10’ radius easily allows you to crowd more than nine medium creatures around the party.
Make sure you keep track of the 10 rounds, and don't forget the number of spell slots they have. If they are saying they do it as a ritual then remember it will take 11 minutes - that's 110 combat rounds. The fight will be over before the ritual is complete. Have your enemies focus fire on them, spell casting is obvious, so have your spell casters attack the PC conducting the ritual and enforce the con saving throws if the PC takes damage. Spells like sleep, hold person, confusion, suggestion, command or something that restrains them like web or entangle will stop them in their tracks. It is practically impossible for them to cast the spell once combat begins.
I have 7 players, so 70% of those 10 rounds are people who aren't going to attack the spellcaster. They are level 7, so this is a relatively new strategy, but its already getting old
Sorry if i'm completely off base, but something just struck me about the way you phrased the above - are you treating each player/npc/monster's turn as a Round? If so, that's what is causing you the problems here - one Round is elapsed only once every player/npc/monster has taken a turn.
Anyway, your original question: Have you considered having the opponents falling back to another area of the dungeon/out of range of the players? It would make sense for intelligent enemies to retreat if they can't dispel or otherwise deal with the hut, and your players have only got so many 3rd level spell slots a day to waste on nonsense like this.
I'm also wondering if this is indicative of a more general issue? It might be worth having a discussion with them and explaining that this sort of cheese tactic is causing you to not have fun while playing.
Thank you so much! That was the problem! Jeez, I need to read the rules more carefully
Two more things.... Make sure the caster makes con saves for every time he gets hit while casting and it will use his spell slot even if the spell doesn't go off. Also, if he is ritual casting the spell it will add another 10 minutes to the casting time so a full 110 rounds of combat if ritual casting.
I'm glad the turn/round distinction turned out to be the problem. When I think of a 7 person party that routinely engages in 10+ Round combat encounters...*shudders*...
That would take hours, if not days
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I am a newish DM and my players have taken to abusing a certain spell and I have no clue how to limit this.
They are casting Leomunds tiny hut at the beginning of combat, then just jumping in and out of the hut to attack then hide again. It is making encounters repetitive and mildly broken because I can't figure out how to get them out.
Any ideas?
Are you saying they're casting it after combat starts? Because that spell has a casting time of 1 minute; it takes 10 rounds to cast. They're not be able to just cast it on a whim as an action.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Just have opponents ready an action to attack them as soon as they come out, or put in some enemy spellcasters with counterspell or dispel magic.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
I make them take the full ten rounds, but it doesn't dissuade them.
How are your encounters lasting so long? In my experience most encounters only last 3-6 rounds. Also, they do have to concentrate while casting the spell, lose concentration on any other spells they might've had and can't take any other actions in the meantime, so simply damaging the caster a few times will likely cause them to lose the spell. Plus they should only have so many 3rd level slots to spend on this.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I have 7 players, so 70% of those 10 rounds are people who aren't going to attack the spellcaster. They are level 7, so this is a relatively new strategy, but its already getting old
AOE spells will get the spell caster to have to make that concentration roll.
Also, any enemy with ranged weapons will probably target a caster, since they appear to be trying to perform some sort of powerful ritual - best to kill them before they complete the ritual!
And also, when my party was 7th+ level a combat still didn't last 10 rounds - so maybe the rest of your party with turn to the caster and get them to cast something more useful instead of not participating in the combat at all.
Sorry if i'm completely off base, but something just struck me about the way you phrased the above - are you treating each player/npc/monster's turn as a Round? If so, that's what is causing you the problems here - one Round is elapsed only once every player/npc/monster has taken a turn.
Anyway, your original question: Have you considered having the opponents falling back to another area of the dungeon/out of range of the players? It would make sense for intelligent enemies to retreat if they can't dispel or otherwise deal with the hut, and your players have only got so many 3rd level spell slots a day to waste on nonsense like this.
I'm also wondering if this is indicative of a more general issue? It might be worth having a discussion with them and explaining that this sort of cheese tactic is causing you to not have fun while playing.
Don't stage encounters in situations where they can do that. It takes a long time to cast the spell, and that's plenty of time for the monsters to either kill the PCs or go somewhere else.
As Killerwraith418 mentioned, it sounds like you’re counting each actor’s (NPC/PC) action as a round. A round is a set of everyone’s actions, once through in initiative order. That alone should resolve the issue, as the cast won’t finish before combat ends.
Since you self-identified as “newish”, I’ll throw another few ideas out there.
Use their own tricks: If PCs are jumping in and out of complete cover, have all NPCs hold readied actions to attack the first available target. The alpha strike could down a pc, or inflict that massive damage check. Damage greater than half a creature or npcs hp max causes a death toll for instant death.
The enemy communicates: Your PCs have found a strategic way to use spells or items that is too close to “cheesing it”. Let the PCs have their outstanding success in the first encounter, but let at least one enemy escape. Next time, the enemy is wise to their tricks and has a counter. Anti-magic bubble, counter-spelling npcs, etc.
Thank you so much! That was the problem! Jeez, I need to read the rules more carefully
Although I am not normally a huge fan of the YouTube based D&D "TV shows" like Critical Role, you might wanna watch one or two episodes just to see how combat is run. If you are having trouble with things like how combat rounds work and what happens during a combat round, watching someone actually do it live might help you out. I think Critical Role Season 2, episode 1 has a fight at the end of it. It's a long slog to get to the fight, and the whole first part of the show is them introducing it, which is boring. But if you can stick it out, there is a fight with some zombies at the end, which should be very helpful in understanding how combat works. You could also try "D&D with High School students" which is a very slow start as well but Bill Allan is teaching H.S. kids how to play so he explains everything very well. You may have to poke around and watch some stuff that isn't super interesting to get to the combat, but I think it may help you to see combat actually staged round by round, with the initiative orders, how players declare their targets, when rolls are made, and so forth.
Now mind you, I am not saying you should try to run anything like Matt Mercer (the CR DM) or Bill Allan (the HS DM) -- you need to develop your own style. But those two do know how to run a D&D battle and you will get to see how it is normally done.
EDIT:
D&D with HS students, ep. 2, around 14:30 into it - wolves attack the party, first combat the kids get into:
https://youtu.be/wxmoMpFp3zI
Just keep in mind Bill uses some house rules designed to make the game a little easier/more fun for students (he has his own special way of doing crits, and I think his flanking rules are slightly different as well).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
The casting time for that spell is really long. So just have the fights end before 10 rounds are up. The player doing it will get tired of doing nothing for the whole fight multiple fights in a row.
If they do actually pull it off, have the bad guys run away. The hut can't move.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
We used to use Segments -> Rounds -> Turns back in 2e so as someone who just recently switched from 2e to 5e I will be the first to admit that time still trips me up from time to time, haha. Hope this revelation sorts out the issue for you.
Alternative would be to, as someone else suggested, have whatever they're fighting fall back out of range of Leomund's Tiny Hut and prepare. Either that or give something in the bad-guy camp either Counterspell or Dispel Magic. :3
It's also noteworthy that the tiny hut allows for anyone within the bubble to move through it, and prevents anyone outside from doing so, so all you have to do is get some enemies inside (maybe some with area effects to try and force the players to move away) before the last turn needed for the spell to finish. The bad guys should try and push forward to within 10ft of the caster. Any players outside of 10ft when the spell starts cannot move inside. Perhaps include some subterranean monsters who can ambush them after they make the hut, from just under the caster.
A horde of smaller enemies appearing after the 8th round (so 2 turns before the hut appears) and swarming in could prevent it - more than 9 creatures in the dome will cause the spell to fail. Alternatively, if an enemy makes it into the dome before it seals off, he can grapple or push the caster out of the area, causing it to fail. That is, of course, if they still want to try and cast it now it's going to take so much longer!
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In terms of tactics... if the situation calls for the PCs to say, stop enemies from doing something, and they all hide inside the hut, there's nothing preventing the enemy from just walking away from the hut and going to do whatever it is they want to do. The hut assumes a stationary battlefield -- a moving battlefield will completely negate it, as enemies move out of range.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Sounds like you’ve got it solved, but you might be able to leverage this as well: “The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures.” 10’ radius easily allows you to crowd more than nine medium creatures around the party.
Make sure you keep track of the 10 rounds, and don't forget the number of spell slots they have. If they are saying they do it as a ritual then remember it will take 11 minutes - that's 110 combat rounds. The fight will be over before the ritual is complete. Have your enemies focus fire on them, spell casting is obvious, so have your spell casters attack the PC conducting the ritual and enforce the con saving throws if the PC takes damage. Spells like sleep, hold person, confusion, suggestion, command or something that restrains them like web or entangle will stop them in their tracks. It is practically impossible for them to cast the spell once combat begins.
Two more things.... Make sure the caster makes con saves for every time he gets hit while casting and it will use his spell slot even if the spell doesn't go off. Also, if he is ritual casting the spell it will add another 10 minutes to the casting time so a full 110 rounds of combat if ritual casting.
I'm glad the turn/round distinction turned out to be the problem. When I think of a 7 person party that routinely engages in 10+ Round combat encounters...*shudders*...
That would take hours, if not days