It's my first time DMing a campaign that goes above level two is coming up and things are going a little sideways with one of my players. Some context, this man is 25, someone with authority over me outside of the table, has supposedly played this game quite a bit, and told me he know's what he's doing. He asks me if he can play a gunslinger, and I say why not since it fits the setting we're using, and then he asks me if he can port some weapons from 3.5 over to 5e, and just scale the damage appropriately, it being a different system and all. I give him the go ahead and everything is going fine and dandy until he mentions he has a plus 11 to attack with the weapon. At level three. I understandably freak out a little, and ask him to show me his sheet. Apparently he ports over not just the weapon, but also the "scoped property" which apparently adds to his to hit, a feat (He took variant human) that he misunderstood and took to mean he gets more to hit, the archery fighting style, and added both his wisdom and his dexterity to his to hit chance (which I'm pretty sure he can't do). I'm like, what the **** dude, and he gets upset that I don't want it to be impossible for him to miss 50% of the MM at level 3. So I'm going over his sheet with him and we're going to set some things straight, but from this I learned who this dude is. He's the kind of guy that wants to be cool and will argue with me to get there, and I'm gonna slap him if I have to stop every twenty minutes because he's arguing with me over the rules. Alright, maybe that's a little far, and it's not really fair to try and boil this man down into a single character trait, especially since it's probably not 100% accurate, but regardless if you're gonna power game at least try to do it raw. and I don't mind powergaming, but this isn't power gaming it's playing with hack clients that the rest of the table doesn't have. And this all means he's either lying about his amount of experience in the game, or he just doesn't give a flying fart that he's making my life difficult for the sake of ten minutes of gratification followed by a boring three months of gameplay.
That's all. Comments are appreciated, though this thread was more to rant into the void and get my thoughts collected.Thanks!
Take a deep breath and go in positive that things will be fine and that what you've run into with this player pre-game is not indicative of how the actual game will play out.
If things do go bad after a playing session you might need to have a talk about him respecting the table and how you are running the game. Explain the difficulty you may be running into and see if there is something he can do or stop doing to make sure everyone at the table is enjoying the game. I guess it's better to get ahead of the problem if it exists than let it fester and it turns into a DM vs. Player debate every time said player disagree or trying to 'rules lawyer' you.
"I'm sorry, your character is a bit too complicated for me. I'm just starting out as a DM, let's keep it to official material for now, so I can learn."
Well, there are several lessons to learn from this:
Don’t let your players do their own homebrew unless you know you can trust them and know that if you tell them to tweak something they will listen.
Don’t let players bring outside homebrews from elsewhere for the same reasons.
You told them they could port the weapon. You never agreed to porting the scope. Stick to your guns.
You are 100% justified in insisting that the feat be used correctly and that all rules be followed RAW.
Whenever applicable, RAW is beautiful for any DM who wants to not have an argument. If you can point to the RAW for a feat and say “that’s not how it works” then you are not “the bad guy” in the situation. Simply remind them that as the DM, it is your job to make sure that the rules get applied fairly across the board for everyone at the table, and following RAW is part of how you do that.
Once you point out all of that, and the player realizes what the reality of their character would be, you can point out that a well built Gunslinger without any homebrew is still a badass character and theirs is still better than that. You can also magnanimously explain that you understand how disappointed they might be to find out that their character won’t work the way they thought and if they wish to change characters to something else you’d understand. Then let them know that since things are already underway and then need to quickly write their new character while you continue the game for the others that you cannot permit any homebrew and that their next character will have to be out of the books. That way they can make their character without your approval and hurry back to the table to join the others and get back into the game! Then start moving as if to set them up at a different table to “quickly” write a new PC while you get back to the DMing.
At that point, one of three things will happen:
They will capitulate accept your rulings on their PC and play it like you say.
They will capitulate and build a new character from the available official options.
They will rage quit your campaign.
If 1 or 2 happen you will still need to keep an eye on them for cheating, but you would at least have taken control of the situation back. If 3 happens you will only need to deal with them outside of D&D, although they may likely be less pleasantly disposed towards you after that.
I hope this helps.
PS- Sooner or later, others will come here and give you their advice too. If any of them tell you to do nasty things to that person’s character, ignore that advice. Dealing with out of character (OOC) problems with in character (IC) solutions is never a good idea.
Well, there are several lessons to learn from this:
Don’t let your players do their own homebrew unless you know you can trust them and know that if you tell them to tweak something they will listen.
Don’t let players bring outside homebrews from elsewhere for the same reasons.
You told them they could port the weapon. You never agreed to porting the scope. Stick to your guns.
You are 100% justified in insisting that the feat be used correctly and that all rules be followed RAW.
Whenever applicable, RAW is beautiful for any DM who wants to not have an argument. If you can point to the RAW for a feat and say “that’s not how it works” then you are not “the bad guy” in the situation. Simply remind them that as the DM, it is your job to make sure that the rules get applied fairly across the board for everyone at the table, and following RAW is part of how you do that.
Once you point out all of that, and the player realizes what the reality of their character would be, you can point out that a well built Gunslinger without any homebrew is still a badass character and theirs is still better than that. You can also magnanimously explain that you understand how disappointed they might be to find out that their character won’t work the way they thought and if they wish to change characters to something else you’d understand. Then let them know that since things are already underway and then need to quickly write their new character while you continue the game for the others that you cannot permit any homebrew and that their next character will have to be out of the books. That way they can make their character without your approval and hurry back to the table to join the others and get back into the game! Then start moving as if to set them up at a different table to “quickly” write a new PC while you get back to the DMing.
At that point, one of three things will happen:
They will capitulate accept your rulings on their PC and play it like you say.
They will capitulate and build a new character from the available official options.
They will rage quit your campaign.
If 1 or 2 happen you will still need to keep an eye on them for cheating, but you would at least have taken control of the situation back. If 3 happens you will only need to deal with them outside of D&D, although they may likely be less pleasantly disposed towards you after that.
I hope this helps.
PS- Sooner or later, others will come here and give you their advice too. If any of them tell you to do nasty things to that person’s character, ignore that advice. Dealing with out of character (OOC) problems with in character (IC) solutions is never a good idea.
IamSposta is right on the money! I've found from personal experience that what he advises is an excellent practice.
I would add a couple considerations. Be careful that he's using you to run his game, rather than joining the players at your table. If there's an expectation of special treatment, it will make things difficult down the road. A good way to know if he's in it for himself alone, not caring a whit for cooperative play, is if he sulks when you make a call in-game that goes against what he wants, especially if the call was accepted as reasonable by other players.
I would add a 4th possible response to IamSposta's list. Your player may want to make it difficult for you and your other players simply out of spite. Be prepared to have a discussion about expectations and whether he's a good fit for your table if that happens. Trust me, I had a player like him, and I tried to be patient, gracious, and kind; it only made me stressed out and anxious for every session with him.
Don’t let your players do their own homebrew unless you know you can trust them and know that if you tell them to tweak something they will listen.
Don’t let players bring outside homebrews from elsewhere for the same reasons.
I'm gonna say, don't allow it even if you know them. I've allowed it in my current campaign and I wish that I hadn't. The player isn't a problem and I trust him... but we have had to re-balance the thing (collaboratively) 3x now and I'm sick of rebalancing.
Next campaign I run will have the following non-negotiable house rules:
No 3rd party or player-made Homebrew, period
No UA content, period -- if it's not been published in a hardback book, my answer is no
No content published after the campaign goes live (for instance, we started a year ago -- under this rule, the Tasha stuff would be off limits) -- because I don't like having the basic rules change mid-game
If the players don't like it -- someone else can DM.
We did not agree to these things before we started and it is too late now, but that's how I'm going to do it next time.
Thanks for all the advice you guys. I'm gonna sit down with him this Sunday and try to reason with him, and I'm not so sure how it's gonna go down. Regardless, I'm gonna put my foot down if I need to.
Like you said, it's your first time DMing past level 2 so adding all sorts of homebrew and porting things over from a different campaign seems a bit over your head. He can either have his character tuned down or pick a regular basic class that you know will be balanced. It's not his fault for wanting a powerful cool character nor yours for not knowing how it will impact the balance of the game. Just a live and learn type thing and should be approached as such so there won't be an emotional conflict.
Some sage wisdom from Gary Gygax in the original DMG:
[Players] will always be pushing for a game which allows them to become strong and powerful far too quickly. Each will attempt to take the game out of your hands and mold it to his or her own ends. To satisfy this natural desire is to issue a death warrant to a campaign.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
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It's my first time DMing a campaign that goes above level two is coming up and things are going a little sideways with one of my players. Some context, this man is 25, someone with authority over me outside of the table, has supposedly played this game quite a bit, and told me he know's what he's doing. He asks me if he can play a gunslinger, and I say why not since it fits the setting we're using, and then he asks me if he can port some weapons from 3.5 over to 5e, and just scale the damage appropriately, it being a different system and all. I give him the go ahead and everything is going fine and dandy until he mentions he has a plus 11 to attack with the weapon. At level three. I understandably freak out a little, and ask him to show me his sheet. Apparently he ports over not just the weapon, but also the "scoped property" which apparently adds to his to hit, a feat (He took variant human) that he misunderstood and took to mean he gets more to hit, the archery fighting style, and added both his wisdom and his dexterity to his to hit chance (which I'm pretty sure he can't do). I'm like, what the **** dude, and he gets upset that I don't want it to be impossible for him to miss 50% of the MM at level 3. So I'm going over his sheet with him and we're going to set some things straight, but from this I learned who this dude is. He's the kind of guy that wants to be cool and will argue with me to get there, and I'm gonna slap him if I have to stop every twenty minutes because he's arguing with me over the rules. Alright, maybe that's a little far, and it's not really fair to try and boil this man down into a single character trait, especially since it's probably not 100% accurate, but regardless if you're gonna power game at least try to do it raw. and I don't mind powergaming, but this isn't power gaming it's playing with hack clients that the rest of the table doesn't have. And this all means he's either lying about his amount of experience in the game, or he just doesn't give a flying fart that he's making my life difficult for the sake of ten minutes of gratification followed by a boring three months of gameplay.
That's all. Comments are appreciated, though this thread was more to rant into the void and get my thoughts collected.Thanks!
- Forkspoonknife
The harsh phrase is 'Your table your rules'.
Take a deep breath and go in positive that things will be fine and that what you've run into with this player pre-game is not indicative of how the actual game will play out.
If things do go bad after a playing session you might need to have a talk about him respecting the table and how you are running the game. Explain the difficulty you may be running into and see if there is something he can do or stop doing to make sure everyone at the table is enjoying the game. I guess it's better to get ahead of the problem if it exists than let it fester and it turns into a DM vs. Player debate every time said player disagree or trying to 'rules lawyer' you.
"I'm sorry, your character is a bit too complicated for me. I'm just starting out as a DM, let's keep it to official material for now, so I can learn."
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Give him the boot in the rump so hard he flies through the air and out the door and is never seen at your table again.
Well, there are several lessons to learn from this:
Whenever applicable, RAW is beautiful for any DM who wants to not have an argument. If you can point to the RAW for a feat and say “that’s not how it works” then you are not “the bad guy” in the situation. Simply remind them that as the DM, it is your job to make sure that the rules get applied fairly across the board for everyone at the table, and following RAW is part of how you do that.
Once you point out all of that, and the player realizes what the reality of their character would be, you can point out that a well built Gunslinger without any homebrew is still a badass character and theirs is still better than that. You can also magnanimously explain that you understand how disappointed they might be to find out that their character won’t work the way they thought and if they wish to change characters to something else you’d understand. Then let them know that since things are already underway and then need to quickly write their new character while you continue the game for the others that you cannot permit any homebrew and that their next character will have to be out of the books. That way they can make their character without your approval and hurry back to the table to join the others and get back into the game! Then start moving as if to set them up at a different table to “quickly” write a new PC while you get back to the DMing.
At that point, one of three things will happen:
If 1 or 2 happen you will still need to keep an eye on them for cheating, but you would at least have taken control of the situation back. If 3 happens you will only need to deal with them outside of D&D, although they may likely be less pleasantly disposed towards you after that.
I hope this helps.
PS- Sooner or later, others will come here and give you their advice too. If any of them tell you to do nasty things to that person’s character, ignore that advice. Dealing with out of character (OOC) problems with in character (IC) solutions is never a good idea.
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As usual solid advice.
IamSposta is right on the money! I've found from personal experience that what he advises is an excellent practice.
I would add a couple considerations. Be careful that he's using you to run his game, rather than joining the players at your table. If there's an expectation of special treatment, it will make things difficult down the road. A good way to know if he's in it for himself alone, not caring a whit for cooperative play, is if he sulks when you make a call in-game that goes against what he wants, especially if the call was accepted as reasonable by other players.
I would add a 4th possible response to IamSposta's list. Your player may want to make it difficult for you and your other players simply out of spite. Be prepared to have a discussion about expectations and whether he's a good fit for your table if that happens. Trust me, I had a player like him, and I tried to be patient, gracious, and kind; it only made me stressed out and anxious for every session with him.
Good luck! Way to pick up the DM torch!
I'm gonna say, don't allow it even if you know them. I've allowed it in my current campaign and I wish that I hadn't. The player isn't a problem and I trust him... but we have had to re-balance the thing (collaboratively) 3x now and I'm sick of rebalancing.
Next campaign I run will have the following non-negotiable house rules:
If the players don't like it -- someone else can DM.
We did not agree to these things before we started and it is too late now, but that's how I'm going to do it next time.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Thanks for all the advice you guys. I'm gonna sit down with him this Sunday and try to reason with him, and I'm not so sure how it's gonna go down. Regardless, I'm gonna put my foot down if I need to.
Like you said, it's your first time DMing past level 2 so adding all sorts of homebrew and porting things over from a different campaign seems a bit over your head. He can either have his character tuned down or pick a regular basic class that you know will be balanced. It's not his fault for wanting a powerful cool character nor yours for not knowing how it will impact the balance of the game. Just a live and learn type thing and should be approached as such so there won't be an emotional conflict.
Some sage wisdom from Gary Gygax in the original DMG:
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.