Okay, this might be a little ranty, but I got to know what people are thinking about this.
Some time ago, I created some homebrew for a friend's game. What I made was basically a giant humanoid insect race and I gave it charisma as one of its racial stats, but my friend argued against me giving it charisma and didn't stop pestering me until it changed it to another stat he found more appropriate, which i highly disagree with, but hey. His game, his rules. Similarly, i've seen a lot of comments arguing that warlock should be Int based instead of Cha because "Warlock is about outsmarting your patron and gaining a better deal for yourself, so it should be intelligence." I recently heard another similar argument, which got me thinking about the charisma stat in general and I can't help but feel most players I met have a woefully wrong idea of what the charisma stat actually means. See, people seem to have this weird misconception that Cha is inherently something good. That it's about being nice and making friends and gaining favours from others by buttering them up etc. But you know, that's only half of the equation. After all, the game doesn't just feature one charisma stat (persuasion), but two (persuasion and intimidation). The reason why warlocks use charisma is the same reason why tieflings had a +1 to their charisma stats and the same reason I wanted my bug people to have a cha stat increase as well: because they are freaking terrifying. See, warlocks don't have charisma because they're so good at talking up their patron and gaining favours from them. They have charisma because, when they walk by, people take one look at the creepy guy casually summoning demons from hell or eldritch horrors from beyond the void all around them and they sh*t their pants in terror and are too afraid to oppose them. In the same vein tieflings had +1 cha because they look like demons and people are too afraid to say no to them, and not because they magically make friends wherever they go. Which is also the reason why I wanted my guys to be Cha based as well. I just have the feeling a lot of people forget that charisma isn't just about making friends, it's your overall presence and how people react to you, good AND bad.
But maybe that's just me and I'm wrong about the whole thing. Any opinions?
CHA is about your presence an force of personality. You cannot be really intimidating without that (especially in the sense of using intimidation to get something from someone).
That is also why your take on tieflings and looking terrifying is in my opinion wrong. Tieflings have +1 CHA because they are halve Devils. Abd Devils are the guys with a lot of force of personality and the silver tongue.
By your logic, Orcs, Lizardfolk, etc. should also have +CHA, but they don't.
General, I like the TCoE / M3 flowing stats, but that is another discussion.
So, I would say, as long as your insects are not generally really good with manipulative social interaction, they should not have +CHA
CHA is about your presence an force of personality. You cannot be really intimidating without that (especially in the sense of using intimidation to get something from someone).
Charisma is some mixture of personality and willpower; while you can certainly use that to intimidate someone, it shouldn't be the only way to do so, as otherwise we have a world where barbarians are some of the least scary people in it despite being rage-fuelled killing machines who can descend into a murderous rampage at the slightest provocation.
The key is how you're doing something, in this case intimidating someone; if you're just standing there looking menacing near your party mates, then that's a decent excuse to Help someone else doing the talking, but if you're pointedly picking up human skulls and crushing them in your fist or looming over someone alone in a dark alley, I'd fully allow Strength (Intimidation) in that and similar cases because it'd be silly to punish a martial player for not increasing a fourth ability score, when the least threatening Bard on the planet has everyone shaking in their boots.
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I have also been know to pair Con, Dex, and Int with Intimidation as well as Str. I’m sure I could find a reason for a Wisdom (Intimidation) check if I thought about it long enough. Intimidation is one of those Skills particularly well suited to pairing with different ability scores.
Exactly! Even in real life, people observing persons with high charisma (much like with great beauty)can be envious or jealous. Thus those with high charisma can be charming or intimidating. It was said that Hitler (reportedly, to use an outlier example) was very charismatic, especially when giving speeches. Yet we now know he could be terrifying when in close proximity to him.
Other people associate charisma with beauty. NOT SO! Charisma goes much deeper than beauty. Your charisma, basically, is your invisible aura that others perceive.
You are both right, and I do the same on my table, but this has nothing to do with the OP's topic. ;)
You're right I could have been more on topic, but I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with it; the fact that ability scores and skills aren't tied does mean that no one score represents only a single thing. Even Constitution which generally means robustness so should be the simplest score still covers the amount of damage you can sustain, the ability to concentrate, the ability to resist poisons, the ability to resist cold/heat/tiredness etc., but it can also help to inform your character's physical presence.
I think of charisma as being a mixture of personality and willpower; either of these things can be positive or negative, because you can be a strong-willed person who commands attention in a room, but then uses that to coerce or manipulate, your "presence" in a room can be alluring or frightening and so-on.
I've seen the argument that Warlocks should be Intelligence based a few times, but I've never agreed with it, as I feel like Charisma is a better fit; for its about either the gravitas your patron lends you, or the strength of will required to resist being taken over by them completely, or some mixture of the two. Depends on the patron as well of course, as Archfey for example could be all about glamour and mystique, so more personality than will, but then archfey can also be highly manipulative and cruel.
Another good way to think about ability scores is that while there are certain things that a score is connected to, what exactly it represents for your character is still largely up to you, with quite a lot of scope for you interpret it. For example, I've run characters with low Intelligence who aren't stupid; my rationale being that they're just not knowledgeable (as many of the default INT based skills represent), but they still remember things, they can still come up with solutions to problems etc.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think much of this might come from earlier editions where charisma was also tied to physical beauty and attractiveness. The person objecting to an insect race gaining a charisma bonus is probably thinking of some aspect that factors in attractiveness and they consider insects the opposite of this.
"Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality."
Sorcerer: "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world."
Paladin: "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your paladin spells, since their power derives from the strength of your convictions."
Bard: "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your bard spells. Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration."
The warlock is the only class that doesn't have a bit of fluff justification for the use of charisma as their spellcasting stat.
However, the common theme in 5e is that charisma is a measure of a character's force of personality, their strength of will or convictions and their ability to project that so others can see and be influenced by it. As a result, a tiefling, an insect race, a graceful elf, could all have high charisma and it refers to their personality and the impact they can have on others and not their physical attractiveness.
In 1e, charisma was defined as: "Charisma: Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism." The physical attractiveness element was removed (since what is physically attractive varies by species so having a high charisma can't be a measure of such a subjective quantity). I don't know which edition removed the physical element from charisma.
However, some folks still think of it that way and as a result have trouble picturing an "unattractive" race with a high charisma - which is a misconception of what charisma means in 5e.
P.S. The tie in to attractiveness, I think, is part of the reason many folks have a conception that a high charisma is "good". However, a high charisma could also be an effective manipulator, a master of argument who always makes their vision sound reasonable and the best option, a person who walks into a room and their gaze makes everyone sit still (I've seen teachers or professors who can do this - in part through reputation combined with an almost palpable force of will). Most folks have seen this when a teacher walks into a room of noisy people and just stands there staring at the group which as they start to notice the person start to sit quietly and look back waiting for something to happen.
P.P.S. In 1e, the charisma score was affected by race and could limit class choices (the table had built in racism) - the game has evolved a lot in almost 50 years (and is generally a lot better thematically and mechanically).
An elf had a minimum charisma of 8
A half-orc had a maximum charisma of 12 (but only with respect to non-orcs and non-half-orcs)
A dwarf had a maximum charisma of 16 (but only with respect to non-dwarves)
A character with a charisma of 5 or less could only be an assassin
Added to what you wrote, David42, is that certain demons and devils had negative charisma because their appearance was frightful! Th 5e version of only positive charismas, starting at 0, applies to first impressions (attractiveness, not necessarily beauty), then persuasiveness, whether through deception, intimidation, oratory, etcetera. People also forget that 'beauty' (or lack thereof) can be a blessing AND a curse depending on the observer. Think 'The Joker' and what he often desires to do to those with a pretty face.
Okay, this might be a little ranty, but I got to know what people are thinking about this.
Some time ago, I created some homebrew for a friend's game. What I made was basically a giant humanoid insect race and I gave it charisma as one of its racial stats, but my friend argued against me giving it charisma and didn't stop pestering me until it changed it to another stat he found more appropriate, which i highly disagree with, but hey. His game, his rules.
Similarly, i've seen a lot of comments arguing that warlock should be Int based instead of Cha because "Warlock is about outsmarting your patron and gaining a better deal for yourself, so it should be intelligence."
I recently heard another similar argument, which got me thinking about the charisma stat in general and I can't help but feel most players I met have a woefully wrong idea of what the charisma stat actually means.
See, people seem to have this weird misconception that Cha is inherently something good. That it's about being nice and making friends and gaining favours from others by buttering them up etc. But you know, that's only half of the equation. After all, the game doesn't just feature one charisma stat (persuasion), but two (persuasion and intimidation).
The reason why warlocks use charisma is the same reason why tieflings had a +1 to their charisma stats and the same reason I wanted my bug people to have a cha stat increase as well: because they are freaking terrifying.
See, warlocks don't have charisma because they're so good at talking up their patron and gaining favours from them. They have charisma because, when they walk by, people take one look at the creepy guy casually summoning demons from hell or eldritch horrors from beyond the void all around them and they sh*t their pants in terror and are too afraid to oppose them.
In the same vein tieflings had +1 cha because they look like demons and people are too afraid to say no to them, and not because they magically make friends wherever they go. Which is also the reason why I wanted my guys to be Cha based as well.
I just have the feeling a lot of people forget that charisma isn't just about making friends, it's your overall presence and how people react to you, good AND bad.
But maybe that's just me and I'm wrong about the whole thing. Any opinions?
CHA is about your presence an force of personality. You cannot be really intimidating without that (especially in the sense of using intimidation to get something from someone).
That is also why your take on tieflings and looking terrifying is in my opinion wrong. Tieflings have +1 CHA because they are halve Devils. Abd Devils are the guys with a lot of force of personality and the silver tongue.
By your logic, Orcs, Lizardfolk, etc. should also have +CHA, but they don't.
General, I like the TCoE / M3 flowing stats, but that is another discussion.
So, I would say, as long as your insects are not generally really good with manipulative social interaction, they should not have +CHA
Charisma is some mixture of personality and willpower; while you can certainly use that to intimidate someone, it shouldn't be the only way to do so, as otherwise we have a world where barbarians are some of the least scary people in it despite being rage-fuelled killing machines who can descend into a murderous rampage at the slightest provocation.
The section on using differently ability scores specifically gives an example of Strength (Intimidation), and this is one I frequently use in games.
The key is how you're doing something, in this case intimidating someone; if you're just standing there looking menacing near your party mates, then that's a decent excuse to Help someone else doing the talking, but if you're pointedly picking up human skulls and crushing them in your fist or looming over someone alone in a dark alley, I'd fully allow Strength (Intimidation) in that and similar cases because it'd be silly to punish a martial player for not increasing a fourth ability score, when the least threatening Bard on the planet has everyone shaking in their boots.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I have also been know to pair Con, Dex, and Int with Intimidation as well as Str. I’m sure I could find a reason for a Wisdom (Intimidation) check if I thought about it long enough. Intimidation is one of those Skills particularly well suited to pairing with different ability scores.
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You are both right, and I do the same on my table, but this has nothing to do with the OP's topic. ;)
Exactly! Even in real life, people observing persons with high charisma (much like with great beauty)can be envious or jealous. Thus those with high charisma can be charming or intimidating. It was said that Hitler (reportedly, to use an outlier example) was very charismatic, especially when giving speeches. Yet we now know he could be terrifying when in close proximity to him.
Other people associate charisma with beauty. NOT SO! Charisma goes much deeper than beauty. Your charisma, basically, is your invisible aura that others perceive.
Everybody I've played with understands that Charisma can be used in both friendly and hostile ways.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You're right I could have been more on topic, but I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with it; the fact that ability scores and skills aren't tied does mean that no one score represents only a single thing. Even Constitution which generally means robustness so should be the simplest score still covers the amount of damage you can sustain, the ability to concentrate, the ability to resist poisons, the ability to resist cold/heat/tiredness etc., but it can also help to inform your character's physical presence.
I think of charisma as being a mixture of personality and willpower; either of these things can be positive or negative, because you can be a strong-willed person who commands attention in a room, but then uses that to coerce or manipulate, your "presence" in a room can be alluring or frightening and so-on.
I've seen the argument that Warlocks should be Intelligence based a few times, but I've never agreed with it, as I feel like Charisma is a better fit; for its about either the gravitas your patron lends you, or the strength of will required to resist being taken over by them completely, or some mixture of the two. Depends on the patron as well of course, as Archfey for example could be all about glamour and mystique, so more personality than will, but then archfey can also be highly manipulative and cruel.
Another good way to think about ability scores is that while there are certain things that a score is connected to, what exactly it represents for your character is still largely up to you, with quite a lot of scope for you interpret it. For example, I've run characters with low Intelligence who aren't stupid; my rationale being that they're just not knowledgeable (as many of the default INT based skills represent), but they still remember things, they can still come up with solutions to problems etc.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think much of this might come from earlier editions where charisma was also tied to physical beauty and attractiveness. The person objecting to an insect race gaining a charisma bonus is probably thinking of some aspect that factors in attractiveness and they consider insects the opposite of this.
"Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality."
Sorcerer: "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world."
Paladin: "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your paladin spells, since their power derives from the strength of your convictions."
Bard: "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your bard spells. Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration."
The warlock is the only class that doesn't have a bit of fluff justification for the use of charisma as their spellcasting stat.
However, the common theme in 5e is that charisma is a measure of a character's force of personality, their strength of will or convictions and their ability to project that so others can see and be influenced by it. As a result, a tiefling, an insect race, a graceful elf, could all have high charisma and it refers to their personality and the impact they can have on others and not their physical attractiveness.
In 1e, charisma was defined as: "Charisma: Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism." The physical attractiveness element was removed (since what is physically attractive varies by species so having a high charisma can't be a measure of such a subjective quantity). I don't know which edition removed the physical element from charisma.
However, some folks still think of it that way and as a result have trouble picturing an "unattractive" race with a high charisma - which is a misconception of what charisma means in 5e.
P.S. The tie in to attractiveness, I think, is part of the reason many folks have a conception that a high charisma is "good". However, a high charisma could also be an effective manipulator, a master of argument who always makes their vision sound reasonable and the best option, a person who walks into a room and their gaze makes everyone sit still (I've seen teachers or professors who can do this - in part through reputation combined with an almost palpable force of will). Most folks have seen this when a teacher walks into a room of noisy people and just stands there staring at the group which as they start to notice the person start to sit quietly and look back waiting for something to happen.
P.P.S. In 1e, the charisma score was affected by race and could limit class choices (the table had built in racism) - the game has evolved a lot in almost 50 years (and is generally a lot better thematically and mechanically).
An elf had a minimum charisma of 8
A half-orc had a maximum charisma of 12 (but only with respect to non-orcs and non-half-orcs)
A dwarf had a maximum charisma of 16 (but only with respect to non-dwarves)
A character with a charisma of 5 or less could only be an assassin
A druid required a minimum charisma of 15
A paladin required a minimum charisma of 17
Added to what you wrote, David42, is that certain demons and devils had negative charisma because their appearance was frightful! Th 5e version of only positive charismas, starting at 0, applies to first impressions (attractiveness, not necessarily beauty), then persuasiveness, whether through deception, intimidation, oratory, etcetera. People also forget that 'beauty' (or lack thereof) can be a blessing AND a curse depending on the observer. Think 'The Joker' and what he often desires to do to those with a pretty face.