A question I have honestly wrestled with. Making Dual Wielder useful without stepping on the toes of TWFS or turning it into completely overpowered nonsense is tricky; there's a lot of restrictions on what you can do with a feat about dual wielding without basically obsoleting some other feature. I'll admit, in my current game I've mostly just allowed a 'Dual Wield Exception' that encodes the whole "only one of your weapons needs to be light to use TWF, not both" bit, and basically said "if anyone really wants to take Dual Wielder we'll figure out what it does in this game then."
Me being a sucker for fancy options and cool abilities, I'd likely experiment with the route of letting the player do something cool as an alternative to a simple off-hand attack. Perhaps a Defensive Stance option that lets the player use their BA to gain +2 to AC instead of attacking, representing them fighting more cautiously with their weapons, or similar alternative-bonus-action stuff. What those would be and whether they'd make the feat worth taking? I honestly don't know, as I've never come up with anything I actually liked for fixing Dual Wielder.
Yurei, if you are not finding an easy way into making it better without breaking th egame, then perhaps it is because its the best you can have. and no, it doesn't just add 3 points of damage and a +1 ac. you should really go on some dedicated forums about power levels of feats and you'd see that the TWF is on the upside of the power level. that's actually why you can't find a better alternative. or perhaps you want them to dual wield true big boi weapons and give them dual wielding great swords like they did in 3e ?
fancy do not work with players. there are tons of options that gives off defensive abilities, are players using them ? that's something else entirely. take the defensive fighting style for an exemple... the vast majority of players thinks its pretty darn bad and that it should give at least a +2 to be viable, without relaising how much a single point of armor changes everything. yet its true that 5e makes it clear that Armor Class is irrelevant in most cases because of high to-hit numbers. thus why would taking your reactions to gain AC be better then say having a third attack using a reaction ?
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Paladin, you don't need the feat to use two weapons at once.
Every single class in the game can do that from level 1. It's in the Basic Rules. And the honest to goober fact of the matter is that the fighting style is more important for two-weapon specialists than the feat is. The fighting style gives them their modifier on bonus attack damage, which is realistically going to range from +3 to +5. The feat upgrades the d6s that most people use for TWF on serious TWF characters into d8s, for an average of one extra damage per swing. Assuming three attacks (two normal, one TWF, as is the case with most folks), that's an average of +3 damage spread out over most of the blows.
The only time the feat is useful is if your DM is an uncommonly stringent hardass over the free-draw thing. Elsewise it's not much more than +1AC unless you're using it to dual-wield heavy martial magic weapons, at which point the feat is not doing anything for you beyond being a feat tax to let you swing with both of those weapons in one turn. because, and here's the other thing nobody tends to get.
You can ALWAYS wield two non-Light one-handed weapons at once. You can hold a staff and a longsword both at once. You can hold a warhammer and a battleaxe both at once. You simply cannot attack with both of those heavier weapons in the same turn unless you have the otherwise useless feat. But if you're holding a Flametongue longsword and a Frostbrand warhammer, let's say? You could choose which weapon to attack with, use your two attacks that way, and keep the other weapon in reserve even without the fighting style OR the feat.
That's why I say the feat is bad. Eighty percent of what people think they need the feat for, they can do from level 1 without any trouble at all.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Can attack with off-hand weapon, provided both main and off-hand are light, as a bonus action, but your off-hand doesn't get your ability modifier.
Two-Weapon Fighting Style: Can attack with off-hand weapon, provided both main and off-hand are light, as a bonus action, but your off-hand does get your ability modifier.
Dual Weapon Feat: Can attack with off-hand weapon, provided both are 1-handed weapons, as a bonus action, but your off-hand doesn't get your ability modifier.. You've also trained so you get a slight bonus to your armor.
Changes I'd make:
Two-Weapon Fighting Style: The off-hand weapon needs to be light, but your main weapon can be any 1-handed weapon. So you could use a Longsword and Shortsword.
Dual Weapon Feat: If you don't have the Two-Weapon Style, you can add your ability modifier with Dual Wielder. If you have not already used your Bonus Action this turn, you can use it with your Reaction to make an attack with your off-hand when you make an Opportunity Attack.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Has anyone else seen Dawnforged's video on Player Boons and/or experimented with similar ideas? I love the idea; my campaigns already had a somewhat more limited system in that every five-ish levels or so, the player got to work with the DM to create a new feat thematic for their character and what they'd experienced in the story so far, but the Dawnforged notion of a steady trickle of abilities reflecting the choices, Epic Moments, and general attitude of the player at the table (or away from it) is super fun.
Yeah okay, it's kinda DMing Advanced Class since it throws the encounter math out the window once your players get access to multiple out-of-progression boons and featlikes, but frankly encounter math has always been dodgy as hell to me anyways. A party of four experienced roleplayers with a side of wargamer and an eye for streamlined optimization can handle twice the encounter of a party of four lackadaisical Story Experience folks; if you're not adjusting encounters at your table for the players you've got then the encounter math can only go so far for you anyways.
Anyone else experimenting with this idea on a more thorough level?
Hello everyone! Let's try to keep discussions centered on the topic, and not on the people we're discussing the topic with. :)
I haven't seen the video you're discussing Yurei, but I love giving my players smaller boons to reflect things they've done in game! Improvements, proficiencies, actions they can do that are drawn from things that they accomplished in game is a super fun idea, great to play with. I find that players should gain one of the following for 'succeeding' in a quest:
Items / Monetary Gain
Reputation / Allies
Personal Growth
The former two always grant a mechanical benefit, whilst the third is usually just a roleplay benefit. That feels great, but getting a little cherry on top? *Chef's kiss*
I've managed to get two into the game so far (with a note to the other players that theirs will come up during organic gameplay moments, as I like to introduce the new ability during play rather than saying 'you can do this now, here's the custom feat thingus').
My bard is the group's primary support character and healer, spends his time during combat well back of the fight slinging a lot of Inspiration and Healing Words. Gave him the ability to spend one Bardic Inspiration per BI recharge (so long rest for now, short rest when Font of Inspiration hits) to heal an ally rather than Inspire them. Roll the d-whatever, apply that as healing if he's tight on spell slots or wants to save them up.
The barbarian is a shifter, and her player's shown a strong preference for shifting instead of raging in combat even though Rage is the barbarian's central thing. That character's following a rather ominous story arc, and as part of it I gave her the ability to enter a rage with the same action she uses to shift, since keeping control of her instincts and bloodlust is the core of her character arc and thus far...she's not been doing great with it. Heh, poke that bear!
It's been a lot of fun, with the players who've received their little tweaks enjoying figuring out cool ways to use them and the others excited to see what comes their way as the game progresses. Yeah okay, it cranks up the power curve, but I'm willing to adjust that encounter math to let my players know that things they do and decisions they make will impact them a lot more personally than in other games.
I honestly never actually “calculate” encounters and it doesn’t seem to be a problem. I usually find that having a general idea how “mighty” my hero’s are gets me in the right ballpark, and any DM who can do some quick arithmetic in their heads can adjust encounter strength on the fly by having minion types run away/show up at the right times. Even if the PCs are loosing all it takes is one good round to scare away a few of the mooks while the “boss” baddies curse, spit, and bluster to pull the PCs fat part way out of the fire. And if the PCs are spanking the Warhoard then reinforcements can show up.
- players recover all their hit dice on a long rest.
- abilities that come back on a short rest simply are recovered if you simply spend an hour without doing stressful activities.
- paladins don't have to be good, every god can have paladins (although their powers might be rethemed to fit with the new god, and some gods don't have paladins, per personal preference)
- Warlock get buffed: they get arcanum for spell levels 1 to 5. From player level 5, they are considered to start the day with an active Hex (if they know the spell). They get Agonising Blast for free.
The biggest house rule is stat rolling at character creation, which works as follows : every character gets a pool of 24d6, that they assign to specific stats. No matter how many dice they assign, they will only keep the top three.
So if you want to dump strength, you could assign only 3 dice to strength, and maybe put 5 dice in charisma if you really care about this stat.
It represents the investment your character put in a stat, and it's very popular among my gaming group. You are also allowed to mulligan everything once.
I allow people to perform certain crafts during short rests, and with certain crafts don't require 8 hours of consecutive investment, but 8 hours total to make progress.
This allows people to hobby craft, and still accomplish something, often adding to a character. It results in people widdling with woodcarving, or knitting while resting, etc. You know, things people who have these crafts actually do, often because it HELPS THEM RELAX AND REFOCUS, you know, the very thing a short rest is supposed to be for.
It also removes the absurdity of a garment unweaving itself, or an object unwiddling itself because someone had to stop at hour 7.
Ye know? I like that, the idea of low-stress hobby crafting. Heh, you're not going to make Awesome Fantastical Supergear that way, but I may incorporate it into some of my own characters or suggest it to my play group. It's a very nice little touch.
- paladins don't have to be good, every god can have paladins (although their powers might be rethemed to fit with the new god, and some gods don't have paladins, per personal preference)
The biggest house rule is stat rolling at character creation, which works as follows : every character gets a pool of 24d6, that they assign to specific stats. No matter how many dice they assign, they will only keep the top three.
So if you want to dump strength, you could assign only 3 dice to strength, and maybe put 5 dice in charisma if you really care about this stat.
It represents the investment your character put in a stat, and it's very popular among my gaming group. You are also allowed to mulligan everything once.
I didn’t think Paladins had to be good anymore in 5e, I think that idea is a holdover from older editions.
I do like that stat rolling method, I think I’ll try it in my next campaign.
I've got a character that knows Animate Objects, which is super useful, but can be a real pain in the ass to keep track of. The spell can create 10 individual tiny creatures (usually for me I keep a satchel full of darts handy), and RAW the darts are supposed to each get a turn in the initiative order, and each one is an individual creature. We play it as them moving at the end of my turn, and the clump of darts is treated as a single creature (with 200 HP that attacks 10 times), and each time it loses 20 HP one of the darts drops to the ground or is otherwise destroyed. AOE attacks, however, affect the whole clump at once
- paladins don't have to be good, every god can have paladins (although their powers might be rethemed to fit with the new god, and some gods don't have paladins, per personal preference)
I didn’t think Paladins had to be good anymore in 5e, I think that idea is a holdover from older editions.
Honestly, neither did I. And there's technically no alignment restriction built into the class. But when you look at the description of the class, they're clearly defined as warriors of good. The "creating a paladin" section also lists some gods to be worshipped by paladins, all of which are LG. It seems like they are still intended to be LG themselves. It's also interesting to notice that the Evil Paladin does not have a proper Oath, and is instead considered an "Oathbreaker".
the oaths of the paladins you see int he paladin section aren'T all lawful good. and the oaths aren't all good either. for exemple, a paladin of the ancients might literally destroy any attempts at a village creating near its borders, because he will save nature and do not want people to destroy the precious wood. there is nothing in the oaths that stops a man from being evil about it. all the oats says though, is that there is no chaotic paladins. a chaotic paladin has no oaths he would serve, he would have no reason to uphold his words. or uphold a thing, he would want to be free and not wanting an ordered life of services. thus what the players handbook describes is not good or evil. what it describes are lawful characters.
i tend to agree that a paladin can be good or evil. after all there are many gods... that said, i would contend that only lawful characters can become paladins. as they require certain order to follow and certain paths that no other alignement can follow. chaotic would break its oath in amatter of seconds. on a whim even. neutral could eventually think of breaking his oath. breaking an oath of a god is something that shouldn't be trivial. thus, only lawful characters can become paladins. and this is pretty much what i got fromt he players handbook and the oaths... and i tend to agree on that assessment.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Actions determine alignment, alignment does not determine actions. Alignment is determined by which actions you take most often and how they balance.
As such, there is for example nothing stopping a person from both being chaotic and being steadfast true to their word. For example a person might consider their word sacred and as such, rarely if ever give it out, but when they do, it is their bond and they will die before they betray it. Having this trait, however, does not cancel out everything else in their life.
Following this same truth, it is perfectly plausible to have a paladin code that works fine with someone of a chaotic nature. Especially if many of it's edicts suite a chaotic personality. Example codes a chaotic personality as described follows both as a general course of action, which also would make a fine Paladin code.
- judge a person as an individual and not by their station or creed.
- judge an action by it's results not it's legality, accept not an unjust law or ruling.
- people should be free to pursue their own ends, so long as in doing so they do not likewise prevent others from pursuing theirs.
- allow not tyranny, fight any system which seeks to subjectify the rights of the individual to the whims of the few.
... out of time, could come up with more but I think I made my point. A chaotic paladin code is possible.
the alignment system might not be as clear as day to you, but it is pretty darn clear to me...
Lawful = orderly manners. Chaotic = always acts on emotionnal states
so no, to me a paladin cannot simply acts on emotionnal states because it implies that one minute they have their word in head, but the next they just simply ignores their words and do whatever the hell they want. so no.. as for alignement not dictating actions... sorry to be blunt... but... isn't the way you live dictating your actions ? i mean i am who i am because of what i learn as i was a kid and the environment, not the other way around. i am not who i am because i did weird as shit actions. i am who i am because of the socials and the environment i lived in. that is not by choice. i was raised that way.
that said, im not gonna go to great length to explain to you what alignment are because i know its gonna be a long ass debate that nobody wants to part take in. so i'll just say, you might not take alignment seriously, but i do. and i really don't see a paladin being chaotic.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
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A question I have honestly wrestled with. Making Dual Wielder useful without stepping on the toes of TWFS or turning it into completely overpowered nonsense is tricky; there's a lot of restrictions on what you can do with a feat about dual wielding without basically obsoleting some other feature. I'll admit, in my current game I've mostly just allowed a 'Dual Wield Exception' that encodes the whole "only one of your weapons needs to be light to use TWF, not both" bit, and basically said "if anyone really wants to take Dual Wielder we'll figure out what it does in this game then."
Me being a sucker for fancy options and cool abilities, I'd likely experiment with the route of letting the player do something cool as an alternative to a simple off-hand attack. Perhaps a Defensive Stance option that lets the player use their BA to gain +2 to AC instead of attacking, representing them fighting more cautiously with their weapons, or similar alternative-bonus-action stuff. What those would be and whether they'd make the feat worth taking? I honestly don't know, as I've never come up with anything I actually liked for fixing Dual Wielder.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yeah, I’m not sure either.
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Yurei, if you are not finding an easy way into making it better without breaking th egame, then perhaps it is because its the best you can have. and no, it doesn't just add 3 points of damage and a +1 ac. you should really go on some dedicated forums about power levels of feats and you'd see that the TWF is on the upside of the power level. that's actually why you can't find a better alternative. or perhaps you want them to dual wield true big boi weapons and give them dual wielding great swords like they did in 3e ?
fancy do not work with players. there are tons of options that gives off defensive abilities, are players using them ? that's something else entirely.
take the defensive fighting style for an exemple... the vast majority of players thinks its pretty darn bad and that it should give at least a +2 to be viable, without relaising how much a single point of armor changes everything. yet its true that 5e makes it clear that Armor Class is irrelevant in most cases because of high to-hit numbers. thus why would taking your reactions to gain AC be better then say having a third attack using a reaction ?
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Paladin, you don't need the feat to use two weapons at once.
Every single class in the game can do that from level 1. It's in the Basic Rules. And the honest to goober fact of the matter is that the fighting style is more important for two-weapon specialists than the feat is. The fighting style gives them their modifier on bonus attack damage, which is realistically going to range from +3 to +5. The feat upgrades the d6s that most people use for TWF on serious TWF characters into d8s, for an average of one extra damage per swing. Assuming three attacks (two normal, one TWF, as is the case with most folks), that's an average of +3 damage spread out over most of the blows.
The only time the feat is useful is if your DM is an uncommonly stringent hardass over the free-draw thing. Elsewise it's not much more than +1AC unless you're using it to dual-wield heavy martial magic weapons, at which point the feat is not doing anything for you beyond being a feat tax to let you swing with both of those weapons in one turn. because, and here's the other thing nobody tends to get.
You can ALWAYS wield two non-Light one-handed weapons at once. You can hold a staff and a longsword both at once. You can hold a warhammer and a battleaxe both at once. You simply cannot attack with both of those heavier weapons in the same turn unless you have the otherwise useless feat. But if you're holding a Flametongue longsword and a Frostbrand warhammer, let's say? You could choose which weapon to attack with, use your two attacks that way, and keep the other weapon in reserve even without the fighting style OR the feat.
That's why I say the feat is bad. Eighty percent of what people think they need the feat for, they can do from level 1 without any trouble at all.
Please do not contact or message me.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Can attack with off-hand weapon, provided both main and off-hand are light, as a bonus action, but your off-hand doesn't get your ability modifier.
Two-Weapon Fighting Style: Can attack with off-hand weapon, provided both main and off-hand are light, as a bonus action, but your off-hand does get your ability modifier.
Dual Weapon Feat: Can attack with off-hand weapon, provided both are 1-handed weapons, as a bonus action, but your off-hand doesn't get your ability modifier.. You've also trained so you get a slight bonus to your armor.
Changes I'd make:
Two-Weapon Fighting Style: The off-hand weapon needs to be light, but your main weapon can be any 1-handed weapon. So you could use a Longsword and Shortsword.
Dual Weapon Feat: If you don't have the Two-Weapon Style, you can add your ability modifier with Dual Wielder. If you have not already used your Bonus Action this turn, you can use it with your Reaction to make an attack with your off-hand when you make an Opportunity Attack.
If you're gonna be a bear...be a Grizzly.
[REDACTED] It is strong as is thank you.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
[REDACTED]
ANYWAYS.
Has anyone else seen Dawnforged's video on Player Boons and/or experimented with similar ideas? I love the idea; my campaigns already had a somewhat more limited system in that every five-ish levels or so, the player got to work with the DM to create a new feat thematic for their character and what they'd experienced in the story so far, but the Dawnforged notion of a steady trickle of abilities reflecting the choices, Epic Moments, and general attitude of the player at the table (or away from it) is super fun.
Yeah okay, it's kinda DMing Advanced Class since it throws the encounter math out the window once your players get access to multiple out-of-progression boons and featlikes, but frankly encounter math has always been dodgy as hell to me anyways. A party of four experienced roleplayers with a side of wargamer and an eye for streamlined optimization can handle twice the encounter of a party of four lackadaisical Story Experience folks; if you're not adjusting encounters at your table for the players you've got then the encounter math can only go so far for you anyways.
Anyone else experimenting with this idea on a more thorough level?
Please do not contact or message me.
Hello everyone! Let's try to keep discussions centered on the topic, and not on the people we're discussing the topic with. :)
I haven't seen the video you're discussing Yurei, but I love giving my players smaller boons to reflect things they've done in game! Improvements, proficiencies, actions they can do that are drawn from things that they accomplished in game is a super fun idea, great to play with. I find that players should gain one of the following for 'succeeding' in a quest:
The former two always grant a mechanical benefit, whilst the third is usually just a roleplay benefit. That feels great, but getting a little cherry on top? *Chef's kiss*
Here is a link to that video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb83C1uuRmI
If you're gonna be a bear...be a Grizzly.
I've managed to get two into the game so far (with a note to the other players that theirs will come up during organic gameplay moments, as I like to introduce the new ability during play rather than saying 'you can do this now, here's the custom feat thingus').
My bard is the group's primary support character and healer, spends his time during combat well back of the fight slinging a lot of Inspiration and Healing Words. Gave him the ability to spend one Bardic Inspiration per BI recharge (so long rest for now, short rest when Font of Inspiration hits) to heal an ally rather than Inspire them. Roll the d-whatever, apply that as healing if he's tight on spell slots or wants to save them up.
The barbarian is a shifter, and her player's shown a strong preference for shifting instead of raging in combat even though Rage is the barbarian's central thing. That character's following a rather ominous story arc, and as part of it I gave her the ability to enter a rage with the same action she uses to shift, since keeping control of her instincts and bloodlust is the core of her character arc and thus far...she's not been doing great with it. Heh, poke that bear!
It's been a lot of fun, with the players who've received their little tweaks enjoying figuring out cool ways to use them and the others excited to see what comes their way as the game progresses. Yeah okay, it cranks up the power curve, but I'm willing to adjust that encounter math to let my players know that things they do and decisions they make will impact them a lot more personally than in other games.
Please do not contact or message me.
I honestly never actually “calculate” encounters and it doesn’t seem to be a problem. I usually find that having a general idea how “mighty” my hero’s are gets me in the right ballpark, and any DM who can do some quick arithmetic in their heads can adjust encounter strength on the fly by having minion types run away/show up at the right times. Even if the PCs are loosing all it takes is one good round to scare away a few of the mooks while the “boss” baddies curse, spit, and bluster to pull the PCs fat part way out of the fire. And if the PCs are spanking the Warhoard then reinforcements can show up.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
My house rules (as far as I can remember):
- players recover all their hit dice on a long rest.
- abilities that come back on a short rest simply are recovered if you simply spend an hour without doing stressful activities.
- paladins don't have to be good, every god can have paladins (although their powers might be rethemed to fit with the new god, and some gods don't have paladins, per personal preference)
- Warlock get buffed: they get arcanum for spell levels 1 to 5. From player level 5, they are considered to start the day with an active Hex (if they know the spell). They get Agonising Blast for free.
The biggest house rule is stat rolling at character creation, which works as follows : every character gets a pool of 24d6, that they assign to specific stats. No matter how many dice they assign, they will only keep the top three.
So if you want to dump strength, you could assign only 3 dice to strength, and maybe put 5 dice in charisma if you really care about this stat.
It represents the investment your character put in a stat, and it's very popular among my gaming group. You are also allowed to mulligan everything once.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
I allow people to perform certain crafts during short rests, and with certain crafts don't require 8 hours of consecutive investment, but 8 hours total to make progress.
This allows people to hobby craft, and still accomplish something, often adding to a character. It results in people widdling with woodcarving, or knitting while resting, etc. You know, things people who have these crafts actually do, often because it HELPS THEM RELAX AND REFOCUS, you know, the very thing a short rest is supposed to be for.
It also removes the absurdity of a garment unweaving itself, or an object unwiddling itself because someone had to stop at hour 7.
Ye know? I like that, the idea of low-stress hobby crafting. Heh, you're not going to make Awesome Fantastical Supergear that way, but I may incorporate it into some of my own characters or suggest it to my play group. It's a very nice little touch.
Please do not contact or message me.
I didn’t think Paladins had to be good anymore in 5e, I think that idea is a holdover from older editions.
I do like that stat rolling method, I think I’ll try it in my next campaign.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I've got a character that knows Animate Objects, which is super useful, but can be a real pain in the ass to keep track of. The spell can create 10 individual tiny creatures (usually for me I keep a satchel full of darts handy), and RAW the darts are supposed to each get a turn in the initiative order, and each one is an individual creature. We play it as them moving at the end of my turn, and the clump of darts is treated as a single creature (with 200 HP that attacks 10 times), and each time it loses 20 HP one of the darts drops to the ground or is otherwise destroyed. AOE attacks, however, affect the whole clump at once
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Honestly, neither did I. And there's technically no alignment restriction built into the class. But when you look at the description of the class, they're clearly defined as warriors of good. The "creating a paladin" section also lists some gods to be worshipped by paladins, all of which are LG. It seems like they are still intended to be LG themselves. It's also interesting to notice that the Evil Paladin does not have a proper Oath, and is instead considered an "Oathbreaker".
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
the oaths of the paladins you see int he paladin section aren'T all lawful good. and the oaths aren't all good either. for exemple, a paladin of the ancients might literally destroy any attempts at a village creating near its borders, because he will save nature and do not want people to destroy the precious wood. there is nothing in the oaths that stops a man from being evil about it. all the oats says though, is that there is no chaotic paladins. a chaotic paladin has no oaths he would serve, he would have no reason to uphold his words. or uphold a thing, he would want to be free and not wanting an ordered life of services. thus what the players handbook describes is not good or evil. what it describes are lawful characters.
i tend to agree that a paladin can be good or evil. after all there are many gods...
that said, i would contend that only lawful characters can become paladins. as they require certain order to follow and certain paths that no other alignement can follow.
chaotic would break its oath in amatter of seconds. on a whim even. neutral could eventually think of breaking his oath. breaking an oath of a god is something that shouldn't be trivial.
thus, only lawful characters can become paladins. and this is pretty much what i got fromt he players handbook and the oaths... and i tend to agree on that assessment.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Actions determine alignment, alignment does not determine actions. Alignment is determined by which actions you take most often and how they balance.
As such, there is for example nothing stopping a person from both being chaotic and being steadfast true to their word. For example a person might consider their word sacred and as such, rarely if ever give it out, but when they do, it is their bond and they will die before they betray it. Having this trait, however, does not cancel out everything else in their life.
Following this same truth, it is perfectly plausible to have a paladin code that works fine with someone of a chaotic nature. Especially if many of it's edicts suite a chaotic personality. Example codes a chaotic personality as described follows both as a general course of action, which also would make a fine Paladin code.
- judge a person as an individual and not by their station or creed.
- judge an action by it's results not it's legality, accept not an unjust law or ruling.
- people should be free to pursue their own ends, so long as in doing so they do not likewise prevent others from pursuing theirs.
- allow not tyranny, fight any system which seeks to subjectify the rights of the individual to the whims of the few.
... out of time, could come up with more but I think I made my point. A chaotic paladin code is possible.
the alignment system might not be as clear as day to you, but it is pretty darn clear to me...
Lawful = orderly manners.
Chaotic = always acts on emotionnal states
so no, to me a paladin cannot simply acts on emotionnal states because it implies that one minute they have their word in head, but the next they just simply ignores their words and do whatever the hell they want. so no.. as for alignement not dictating actions... sorry to be blunt... but... isn't the way you live dictating your actions ? i mean i am who i am because of what i learn as i was a kid and the environment, not the other way around. i am not who i am because i did weird as shit actions. i am who i am because of the socials and the environment i lived in. that is not by choice. i was raised that way.
that said, im not gonna go to great length to explain to you what alignment are because i know its gonna be a long ass debate that nobody wants to part take in.
so i'll just say, you might not take alignment seriously, but i do. and i really don't see a paladin being chaotic.
DM of two gaming groups.
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)