I created a homebrew fighter subclass (a Monster Hunter) which is essentially a carbon copy of the UA Monster Fighter as I really enjoy the idea of a heavy hitting monster hunter guy.
He comes with similar skills as the Battle Master, and a couple other little features. For spells, he's got 2 and that's it.
I found a revised version that a user made up on Reddit and really liked his idea as it gave the Monster Hunter some domains to choose, and 10 spells in total, gaining 2 every handful of levels, relative to the chosen domain. The catch is he can use each spells only ONCE per long rest. No spell slots, so the spells are cast at their default level. However, I found the spells in the domains to be less "huntery" and more "blue magicky" or like learned enemy skills.
SO. This is what I did. I gave the Monster Hunter 15 spells that I found to be quite relative to a hunter of aberrations, fiends, fey, and undead, and he learns 3 every chunk of levels, ranging from level 1 to 5 spells (3 per level). I'm not sure if there's rules to the level gaps between learning spells or if I can just make a whole new system since it's a homebrew? Anyway, I gave him the same rules; he can cast each spell only ONCE per long rest, etc.
But here's the thing: by level 17 the Monster Hunter has 15 spells and can use them ALL in a battle if he wants. I don't know if that would make him OP considering he also has Superiority Dice AND gets extra attacks as a fighter. So then I thought about mimicking the Eldritch Knight spell growth and give him spell slots, but with that he can only cast up to level 4 spells, with only 1 slot in level 4, removing the 3 level 5 spells he'd know otherwise, which ARE pretty cool spells for a Monster Hunter I thought.
Here's the details for my Monster Hunter subclass
Bonus Proficiencies
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in two of the following skills of your choice: Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Nature, or Perception. You can gain proficiency with a tool of your choice in place of one skill choice.
Combat Superiority
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain a set of abilities that are fueled by special dice called superiority dice.
Superiority Dice. You have 4 superiority dice, which are d8s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest.
You gain another superiority die at 7th level and one more at 15th level. Additionally, at 10th level your superiority dice become d10s, and at 18th level they are d12s.
Using Superiority Dice. You can expend superiority dice to gain a number of different benefits:
Precision Attack. When you make a weapon attack against a creature, you can expend 1 superiority die to add it to the attack roll. You can use this ability before or after making the attack roll, but before any of the effects of the attack are applied.
Sharpened Attack. When you damage a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend 1 superiority die to add it to the damage roll. You can use this ability after rolling damage. If the attack causes the target to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration, it has disadvantage on that save.
Sharpened Senses. When you make a Wisdom (Perception) check to detect a hidden creature or object, or a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine if someone is lying to you, you can expend 1 superiority die to add it to the roll. You can use this feature after seeing the total but before learning if you succeeded or failed.
Superior Willpower. When you make an Intelligence, a Wisdom, or a Charisma saving throw, you can expend 1 superiority die to add it to the roll. You can use this feature only before you learn if the save succeeded or failed.
Supernal Tongue
Through your studies, you gain the ability to speak one of the following languages of your choice: Abyssal, Celestial, or Infernal.
Spellcasting
At 3rd level, your study of the supernatural gives you a basic understanding of magic, which you can use to your benefits.
Casting Spells + Rituals
You gain 3 level 1 spells at 3rd level, 3 level 2 spells at 5th level, 3 level 3 spells at 8th level, 3 level 4 spells at 12th level, and 3 level 5 spells at 17th level. You can only cast each spell once per long rest. If the spell has a ritual tag, you may cast that spell as a ritual only. You can treat a weapon you are holding as an arcane focus.
Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom or Intelligence is your spellcasting ability, whatever ability is highest. Your magic comes from study of the arcane, or an intuitive understanding of the weave. You use Wisdom or Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability
Spell Save DC 8 + Wisdom/Intelligence Modifier + Proficiency
Detect Magic, Detect Evil and Good, Protection from Evil and Good
5th
Magic Weapon, Branding Smite, See Invisibility
8th
Elemental Weapon, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle
12th
Banishment, Freedom of Movement, Locate Creature
17th
Dispel Evil and Good, Hallow, Banishing Smite
Monster Slayer
At 7th level, whenever you expend superiority dice to add to a damage roll, you can expend up to 2 dice instead of just 1, adding both to the roll. Both dice are expended as normal. If the target of your attack is an aberration, a fey, a fiend, or an undead, you deal maximum damage with both dice, instead of rolling them.
Improved Combat Superiority
At 10th level, your superiority dice turn into d10s.
Relentless
Starting at 15th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 1 superiority die.
Ultimate Combat Superiority
At 18th level, your superiority dice turn into d12s.
What do you all think? Do the 15-one-use spells, or the more limited Eldritch Knight spell growth. I don't want him to be OP but I'd still like him to have a fun selection of relative spells to use. Let me know!
Your subclass will suffer the same issues of action economy from which the Eldritch Knight suffers either way you do it. In short, casting a spell will always compete with Extra Attacks, and those three attacks will almost always be better than casting a spell. In fact, it’ll be worse for your subclass because spellcasting will be in competition with Extra Attacks and Combat Superiority. That’s why the initial version only had two spells, and why the revised version had those “blue magicky.” That made those spells useful outside of combat when they wouldn’t compete for the character’s action and o use them. I doubt your subclass will be an issue in the way you’re worried about, it’s not likely to be a problem. You would do better to give your subclass stuff like healing word, misty step, shield of faith, shield, and absorb elements that require a bonus action or a reaction to cast.
The real balance issue is the sheer number of spells they learn rivals the Sorcerer, which is a full spellcaster.
Perfect. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for! Thanks so much for that.
I was wondering about the spellcasting vs extra attacks, which is why most of the spells I chose were buffs, but perhaps the extra attacks would just be more effective. As well choosing spells that require a bonus action or reaction is a great idea. I also don't want to compete with the sorcerer's amount of learned spells because that just makes no sense in any immersive and believable way haha, so thanks for mentioning that!
I'll get to tweaking what I've got here soon. Likely I'll keep the Eldritch Knight system, but refine my choice of spells!
You get the spellcasting ability of a full level Paladin with only a subclass? I dunno about that.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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You get the spellcasting ability of a full level Paladin with only a subclass? I dunno about that.
Haha yeah that's why I was asking for some guidance. At 15 spells I was like hmmm this doesn't seem right, lol. There'll be some hefty adjustments and cutbacks for sure!
The Superiority dice already make this a great subclass power-wise. The spellcasting is simultaneously excessive - beyond that of a full half-caster - and kind of a waste of space on their character sheet because many of these spells are super niche or are stepping on the toes of other party members so are unlikely to ever be used.
The 3rd level spells are fine, mainly out of combat utility, with one situational buff in combat. However they are all things any fullcaster could do instead, if you have a wizard in the party there is essentially no reason for anyone else to have Detect Magic, and if you have a paladin in the party there is little need for Detect Evil and Good. Really Protect from Evil & Good is the stand out here because it is a great situational buff that once your fullcasters reach level 5 they won't want to have to spend their concentration on to protect their allies.
Magic Weapon is waste of time here, chances are by level 5-6 you're fighter will have a magic weapon already, by level 8 you're fighter almost certainly will have a magic weapon making Elemental Weapon a complete waste of an Action.
Branding Smite & See Invisibility are redundant as they both solve the same problem: a monster is invisible.
Dispel Magic is available to every full caster and extremely popular among them. Your party's full caster is going to have a better modifier for the check and the opportunity cost to cast it for them is much less than for the Monster Hunter since the full caster can be concentrating on a great spell at the same time. The only time the Monster Hunter would be using Dispel Magic is if the magic needing to be dispelled is crippling the party's usual Dispeller.
Magic Circle is extremely niche, it comes up maybe once a campaign... if the DM sets up a situation where it would be useful.
Banishment is a great spell, but the concentration requirement means it's usually better if a non-melee character is casting it (and again many classes get it), if your party is such that no one else in the party has Banishment then the Monster Hunter will enjoy it but otherwise they may be better off just using their weapon attacks and letting the Cleric or Wizard up cast Banishment.
Freedom of Movement is nice, it's a great buff and fullcasters will appreciate not having to spend a 4th level slot on it for the Monster Hunter. Locate Creature is niche but nice to have when the party needs it.
Hallow is super-super-super niche, many campaigns go by without any need to cast the spell ever. When you have so few spells having some of them never be used generally feels bad. If you don't have a cleric in the party and you have designed the campaign specifically to make Hallow crucial then maybe... but even then I'd be more inclined to just give the party a spell scroll of Hallow....
Banishing Smite is good, but is redundant with Banishment. For a martial character Banishing Smite is just better than Banishment.
Dispel Evil and Good requires 2 full actions to use, and requires an attack roll and gives the enemy a saving throw to resist. Consider that the Monster Hunter could instead make 6 attacks each with either GWM or SS.... they could probably kill the enemy quicker more efficiently than Dispel them....
My suggested Spells:
3rd
Detect Magic (ritual), Detect Evil and Good, Protection from Evil and Good
The Superiority dice already make this a great subclass power-wise. The spellcasting is simultaneously excessive - beyond that of a full half-caster - and kind of a waste of space on their character sheet because many of these spells are super niche or are stepping on the toes of other party members so are unlikely to ever be used.
The 3rd level spells are fine, mainly out of combat utility, with one situational buff in combat. However they are all things any fullcaster could do instead, if you have a wizard in the party there is essentially no reason for anyone else to have Detect Magic, and if you have a paladin in the party there is little need for Detect Evil and Good. Really Protect from Evil & Good is the stand out here because it is a great situational buff that once your fullcasters reach level 5 they won't want to have to spend their concentration on to protect their allies.
Magic Weapon is waste of time here, chances are by level 5-6 you're fighter will have a magic weapon already, by level 8 you're fighter almost certainly will have a magic weapon making Elemental Weapon a complete waste of an Action.
Branding Smite & See Invisibility are redundant as they both solve the same problem: a monster is invisible.
Dispel Magic is available to every full caster and extremely popular among them. Your party's full caster is going to have a better modifier for the check and the opportunity cost to cast it for them is much less than for the Monster Hunter since the full caster can be concentrating on a great spell at the same time. The only time the Monster Hunter would be using Dispel Magic is if the magic needing to be dispelled is crippling the party's usual Dispeller.
Magic Circle is extremely niche, it comes up maybe once a campaign... if the DM sets up a situation where it would be useful.
Banishment is a great spell, but the concentration requirement means it's usually better if a non-melee character is casting it (and again many classes get it), if your party is such that no one else in the party has Banishment then the Monster Hunter will enjoy it but otherwise they may be better off just using their weapon attacks and letting the Cleric or Wizard up cast Banishment.
Freedom of Movement is nice, it's a great buff and fullcasters will appreciate not having to spend a 4th level slot on it for the Monster Hunter. Locate Creature is niche but nice to have when the party needs it.
Hallow is super-super-super niche, many campaigns go by without any need to cast the spell ever. When you have so few spells having some of them never be used generally feels bad. If you don't have a cleric in the party and you have designed the campaign specifically to make Hallow crucial then maybe... but even then I'd be more inclined to just give the party a spell scroll of Hallow....
Banishing Smite is good, but is redundant with Banishment. For a martial character Banishing Smite is just better than Banishment.
Dispel Evil and Good requires 2 full actions to use, and requires an attack roll and gives the enemy a saving throw to resist. Consider that the Monster Hunter could instead make 6 attacks each with either GWM or SS.... they could probably kill the enemy quicker more efficiently than Dispel them....
My suggested Spells:
3rd
Detect Magic (ritual), Detect Evil and Good, Protection from Evil and Good
5th
Protection from Poison, See Invisibility
8th
Intellect Fortress, Catnap
12th
Locate Creature
17th
Banishing Smite
Oh right on, I appreciate this, thanks! I built the class with what a believable monster hunter would have on his own and not really thinking of what would be available within the party from other characters, so this information is good. Thanks for the breakdown of things and suggestions!
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Hey everyone, so I'm needing some assistance!
I created a homebrew fighter subclass (a Monster Hunter) which is essentially a carbon copy of the UA Monster Fighter as I really enjoy the idea of a heavy hitting monster hunter guy.
He comes with similar skills as the Battle Master, and a couple other little features. For spells, he's got 2 and that's it.
I found a revised version that a user made up on Reddit and really liked his idea as it gave the Monster Hunter some domains to choose, and 10 spells in total, gaining 2 every handful of levels, relative to the chosen domain. The catch is he can use each spells only ONCE per long rest. No spell slots, so the spells are cast at their default level. However, I found the spells in the domains to be less "huntery" and more "blue magicky" or like learned enemy skills.
SO. This is what I did. I gave the Monster Hunter 15 spells that I found to be quite relative to a hunter of aberrations, fiends, fey, and undead, and he learns 3 every chunk of levels, ranging from level 1 to 5 spells (3 per level). I'm not sure if there's rules to the level gaps between learning spells or if I can just make a whole new system since it's a homebrew? Anyway, I gave him the same rules; he can cast each spell only ONCE per long rest, etc.
But here's the thing: by level 17 the Monster Hunter has 15 spells and can use them ALL in a battle if he wants. I don't know if that would make him OP considering he also has Superiority Dice AND gets extra attacks as a fighter. So then I thought about mimicking the Eldritch Knight spell growth and give him spell slots, but with that he can only cast up to level 4 spells, with only 1 slot in level 4, removing the 3 level 5 spells he'd know otherwise, which ARE pretty cool spells for a Monster Hunter I thought.
Here's the details for my Monster Hunter subclass
Bonus Proficiencies
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in two of the following skills of your choice: Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Nature, or Perception. You can gain proficiency with a tool of your choice in place of one skill choice.
Combat Superiority
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain a set of abilities that are fueled by special dice called superiority dice.
Superiority Dice. You have 4 superiority dice, which are d8s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest.
You gain another superiority die at 7th level and one more at 15th level. Additionally, at 10th level your superiority dice become d10s, and at 18th level they are d12s.
Using Superiority Dice. You can expend superiority dice to gain a number of different benefits:
Supernal Tongue
Through your studies, you gain the ability to speak one of the following languages of your choice: Abyssal, Celestial, or Infernal.
Spellcasting
At 3rd level, your study of the supernatural gives you a basic understanding of magic, which you can use to your benefits.
Casting Spells + Rituals
You gain 3 level 1 spells at 3rd level, 3 level 2 spells at 5th level, 3 level 3 spells at 8th level, 3 level 4 spells at 12th level, and 3 level 5 spells at 17th level. You can only cast each spell once per long rest. If the spell has a ritual tag, you may cast that spell as a ritual only. You can treat a weapon you are holding as an arcane focus.
Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom or Intelligence is your spellcasting ability, whatever ability is highest. Your magic comes from study of the arcane, or an intuitive understanding of the weave. You use Wisdom or Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability
Spell Save DC 8 + Wisdom/Intelligence Modifier + Proficiency
Spell Attack Bonus Wisdom/Intelligence Modifier + Proficiency
Monster Slayer
At 7th level, whenever you expend superiority dice to add to a damage roll, you can expend up to 2 dice instead of just 1, adding both to the roll. Both dice are expended as normal. If the target of your attack is an aberration, a fey, a fiend, or an undead, you deal maximum damage with both dice, instead of rolling them.
Improved Combat Superiority
At 10th level, your superiority dice turn into d10s.
Relentless
Starting at 15th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain 1 superiority die.
Ultimate Combat Superiority
At 18th level, your superiority dice turn into d12s.
What do you all think? Do the 15-one-use spells, or the more limited Eldritch Knight spell growth. I don't want him to be OP but I'd still like him to have a fun selection of relative spells to use. Let me know!
Your subclass will suffer the same issues of action economy from which the Eldritch Knight suffers either way you do it. In short, casting a spell will always compete with Extra Attacks, and those three attacks will almost always be better than casting a spell. In fact, it’ll be worse for your subclass because spellcasting will be in competition with Extra Attacks and Combat Superiority. That’s why the initial version only had two spells, and why the revised version had those “blue magicky.” That made those spells useful outside of combat when they wouldn’t compete for the character’s action and o use them. I doubt your subclass will be an issue in the way you’re worried about, it’s not likely to be a problem. You would do better to give your subclass stuff like healing word, misty step, shield of faith, shield, and absorb elements that require a bonus action or a reaction to cast.
The real balance issue is the sheer number of spells they learn rivals the Sorcerer, which is a full spellcaster.
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Perfect. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for! Thanks so much for that.
I was wondering about the spellcasting vs extra attacks, which is why most of the spells I chose were buffs, but perhaps the extra attacks would just be more effective. As well choosing spells that require a bonus action or reaction is a great idea. I also don't want to compete with the sorcerer's amount of learned spells because that just makes no sense in any immersive and believable way haha, so thanks for mentioning that!
I'll get to tweaking what I've got here soon. Likely I'll keep the Eldritch Knight system, but refine my choice of spells!
You get the spellcasting ability of a full level Paladin with only a subclass? I dunno about that.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Haha yeah that's why I was asking for some guidance. At 15 spells I was like hmmm this doesn't seem right, lol. There'll be some hefty adjustments and cutbacks for sure!
The Superiority dice already make this a great subclass power-wise. The spellcasting is simultaneously excessive - beyond that of a full half-caster - and kind of a waste of space on their character sheet because many of these spells are super niche or are stepping on the toes of other party members so are unlikely to ever be used.
The 3rd level spells are fine, mainly out of combat utility, with one situational buff in combat. However they are all things any fullcaster could do instead, if you have a wizard in the party there is essentially no reason for anyone else to have Detect Magic, and if you have a paladin in the party there is little need for Detect Evil and Good. Really Protect from Evil & Good is the stand out here because it is a great situational buff that once your fullcasters reach level 5 they won't want to have to spend their concentration on to protect their allies.
Magic Weapon is waste of time here, chances are by level 5-6 you're fighter will have a magic weapon already, by level 8 you're fighter almost certainly will have a magic weapon making Elemental Weapon a complete waste of an Action.
Branding Smite & See Invisibility are redundant as they both solve the same problem: a monster is invisible.
Dispel Magic is available to every full caster and extremely popular among them. Your party's full caster is going to have a better modifier for the check and the opportunity cost to cast it for them is much less than for the Monster Hunter since the full caster can be concentrating on a great spell at the same time. The only time the Monster Hunter would be using Dispel Magic is if the magic needing to be dispelled is crippling the party's usual Dispeller.
Magic Circle is extremely niche, it comes up maybe once a campaign... if the DM sets up a situation where it would be useful.
Banishment is a great spell, but the concentration requirement means it's usually better if a non-melee character is casting it (and again many classes get it), if your party is such that no one else in the party has Banishment then the Monster Hunter will enjoy it but otherwise they may be better off just using their weapon attacks and letting the Cleric or Wizard up cast Banishment.
Freedom of Movement is nice, it's a great buff and fullcasters will appreciate not having to spend a 4th level slot on it for the Monster Hunter. Locate Creature is niche but nice to have when the party needs it.
Hallow is super-super-super niche, many campaigns go by without any need to cast the spell ever. When you have so few spells having some of them never be used generally feels bad. If you don't have a cleric in the party and you have designed the campaign specifically to make Hallow crucial then maybe... but even then I'd be more inclined to just give the party a spell scroll of Hallow....
Banishing Smite is good, but is redundant with Banishment. For a martial character Banishing Smite is just better than Banishment.
Dispel Evil and Good requires 2 full actions to use, and requires an attack roll and gives the enemy a saving throw to resist. Consider that the Monster Hunter could instead make 6 attacks each with either GWM or SS.... they could probably kill the enemy quicker more efficiently than Dispel them....
My suggested Spells:
Oh right on, I appreciate this, thanks! I built the class with what a believable monster hunter would have on his own and not really thinking of what would be available within the party from other characters, so this information is good. Thanks for the breakdown of things and suggestions!