1) if an archer outside the magical darkness wants to shoot a target within the magical darkness, by RAW he would shoot normal (advantage and disadvantage are canceled). But if there is no magic darkness he would also shoot normal. That is, there is no difference for shooting a target in or out of magical darkness if you know where it is the target, is that correct?
2) If a prepared action takes place in the next round, can you use your ready action and make an attack of opportunity that round?
Bear in mind if no one involved in the fight can see anything, you'll be weirdly subject to the following conditions:
As you pointed out, anyone attacking anyone else (assuming they guess the correct target grid cube) is at both advantage and disadvantage, so it's a normal roll.
All ability checks which require sight automatically fail, with no accompanying rule for ability checks that don't require it, so RAW (your DM is highly unlikely to follow this) you autofail if sight is required and roll normally if it's only really, really helpful, like the ability checks involved in an opposed grapple in the darkness (even if only one person can see) - there's no in-between state where ability checks are at disadvantage, like with attack rolls.
Saves aren't affected at all, so there's no penalty to dodging fireballs. If you can inflict saves blind (like a dragonborn's breath weapon), the darkness doesn't impact the inflicter, either.
Note that the cover rules don't apply just for darkness.
1) if an archer outside the magical darkness wants to shoot a target within the magical darkness, by RAW he would shoot normal (advantage and disadvantage are canceled). But if there is no magic darkness he would also shoot normal. That is, there is no difference for shooting a target in or out of magical darkness if you know where it is the target, is that correct?
RAW that is correct. Unless a creature is hidden, its approximate position is known.
However, the DM can decide that a roll for a creature to hide is not required due to circumstances like noise preventing their approximate location from being known.This is DM dependent but if a creature is not hidden then its position is approximately known sufficient to make an attack (at disadvantage since you can't see them or a normal roll if they also can't see you).
It is important to note though that the rules also state that a creature that makes an attack or casts a spell gives away their location no matter what the conditions. So, if a creature attacks you will know where they are at the time they attack even if the DM rules that they do not need to make a check to hide.
Note: DMs are free to change the rules so it is best to check with your DM as to how they run vision rules.
2) If a prepared action takes place in the next round, can you use your ready action and make an attack of opportunity that round?
Thx.
No. Ready action and attack of opportunity are two different things, either of which will use your reaction.
Your character has one reaction that refreshes at the start of their turn.
If a character readies an action then they specify a set of conditions that will cause them to do something - move, make an attack etc. If the conditions happen then the character can choose to perform the readied action and doing so costs their reaction.
If a character with a readied action they have not taken yet is given the possibility of an opportunity attack due to someone running by then they can choose to use their reaction to make the opportunity attack but since they only have one reaction, they will no longer be able to take their readied action since they don't have their reaction left.
A character that has used a readied action, has also used their reaction and as a result can not make an opportunity attack that turn or do anything else that requires a reaction (cast shield or counterspell for example).
RAW that is correct. Unless a creature is hidden, its approximate position is known.
I don't believe that is anywhere in the RAW, and nowhere is it intended as far as I know. It's actually the other way around. By default, you don't know where other creatures are unless you can see them or they give away their location (usually by making some noise or attacking).
Again, be wary of generalising like this, because with your way of wording things, you could argue that you know the position of every creature in a dungeon, city or plane.
What JC said is that in combat, you usually know the position of creatures because they are also acting and as soon as they attack or cast a spell, they give away their position, and they can even do so by leaving tracks, disturbing the environment and making noise. But even then your statement above is not in the RAW, nor can it be deducted directly from them.
Hidden is unseen and unheard.
"because with your way of wording things, you could argue that you know the position of every creature in a dungeon, city or plane."
The above is an absolutely ridiculous exaggeration. I have no idea why you would make such a statement since my comments, taken in context, do not even remotely imply that.
My response also indicated that the DM can and does decide when a creature may be automatically hidden because it is both unseen and unheard. This could be because of ambient noise, distance or many other factors. Obviously, creatures that can't be seen or heard are hidden.
However, a creature, in range to be seen and/or heard - is not hidden unless it tries to hide by taking the Hide action or when the DM decides that is not necessary due to environmental factors.
I'm just saying that the default condition for a creature is that its location is known unless it is hidden. You seem to think creatures are hidden unless something makes them noticeable. I disagree with that since when I play, an invisible creature standing in the corner of a room will need to make a stealth check to remain unnoticed while you seem to think it remains hidden until it does something to draw attention.
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Anyway, characters in D&D are heroes with exceptional abilities and senses. You made the comment that it would not be possible to determine a creatures location accurately enough based on it making some noise. On the other hand, there are humans capable of using echolocation apparently able to localize the position of moving objects (like a basketball) in real time. If people are capable of that sort of sound localization, I'd think a trained D&D character might be quite capable of estimating the position of a creature based on the sounds it makes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_echolocation
Either way, it is a DM call, but the simple rules employed by 5e, which fail at times due to their simplicity, don't seem to be that bad an approach most of the time.
I don't believe that is anywhere in the RAW, and nowhere is it intended as far as I know. It's actually the other way around. By default, you don't know where other creatures are unless you can see them or they give away their location (usually by making some noise or attacking).
Here's what the rules say:
"Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard."
If you're exploring or traveling, the way you roll Stealth is by traveling at a slow pace.
If you're in combat (or some other high-stakes situation measured in rounds rather than minutes or hours) you roll Stealth by taking the Hide action, and creatures are assumed to be alert and looking in every direction.
The only exceptions to these rules are DM fiat, which also applies to every other rule in the game.
So the rules clearly do assume that avoiding detection from a creature that could notice you requires a deliberate effort on your part, and most situations that warrant stealth will generally fall into exploration or combat. What situation are you supposing doesn't fall into either set of rules and lets someone ignore the description of the Stealth skill?
Again, be wary of generalising like this, because with your way of wording things, you could argue that you know the position of every creature in a dungeon, city or plane.
This is a bad faith argument. No one's proposing a combat scenario that spans from one side of a city to the other or from one plane to the next, and the rules already have caveats explaining that passive Perception doesn't apply for creatures that don't have any way of noticing you in the first place.
The original question is obviously a combat scenario so your discussion of out of combat stealth is not relevant and off topic.
In combat you do know the position of any invisible/heavy obscured combatant unless they hide or there is a reason they could possibly be distracted (up to DM).
In the scenario described there is not enough detail to suggest the archer would be distracted, therefore it is assumed they know the combatant''s position automatically and can attack them normally in this case.
He is totally undetected from whoever is room A, and this without having made any sort of effort to hide or any check of any kind. I would not call him hidden, because that would suppose that he has made some effort to hide.
You wouldn't say they're hiding, but you could certainly say they're hidden. That's true of both the dictionary meaning of the word and the particular meaning 5e uses.
Same thing with an invisible guy, by the way, that you do not even know that he is there, in the same room with you. You have never seen him before, have no reason to suspect his presence. He is not making any noise, is not moving and is therefore not disturbing the environment and certainly not leaving any track. The rules say: An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." As the creature is not making noise, and not leaving tracks, there is no way it should be detected.
Unless your invisible guy doesn't need to breathe, they're still either making noise or making an active attempt to mask it. If you happen to have a situation where there was already an invisible guy in the room that never moves and never breathes as long as you're there, fair enough, but that's a situation so contrived it's not even a typical D&D situation, let alone a simple, real-life situation.
Circumstances where someone is in the same scene as someone else yet literally no one is in a position to have any chance of noticing them are extremely rare.
It comes down to simplicity sake 90% of the time it comes up.
If a creature is just going to sit in the corner and not do anything for combat its easy because you just have them sit there....
One with the Shadows would be an example here...the warlock simply does not want to participate in the combat? Sure I guess...
Outside of combat one would assume the warlock would attempt to hide its breath...but due to the poor wording on the ability taking the Hide action would make it visible:
"When you are in an area of dim light or darkness, you can use your action to become invisible until you move or take an action or a reaction"
But do they need to do a Hide action out of combat? Likely not? Maybe? Do they smell? Its up to the DM.
In combat its very clear....if you are in the initiative and do not take the Hide action folks know where you are at if you are in a reasonable distance. Every DM gets to decide what that is.
All in all in the attempt to make it "Simple" they actually did the exact opposite and I have seen it discussed/played differently by literally every table I have been a part of.
I have to side with Lyxen here tbh. Seems to me that people are taking the "I notice everything" idea to the extreme, not every PC is Daredevil/Riddick.
In combat its very clear....if you are in the initiative and do not take the Hide action folks know where you are at if you are in a reasonable distance. Every DM gets to decide what that is.
To get to that conclusion you basically have to ignore the whole "unseen attackers and targets" section. When it says "Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness." I have to see that as three separate examples/ways to be unseen.
Like being invisible ? Where, I must add, the rules are extremely clear. Do you call breathing "making noise? I don't.
I don't think the PHB does either.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
The example they use seems quite far from just breathing tbh.
I have to side with Lyxen here tbh. Seems to me that people are taking the "I notice everything" idea to the extreme, not every PC is Daredevil/Riddick.
In combat its very clear....if you are in the initiative and do not take the Hide action folks know where you are at if you are in a reasonable distance. Every DM gets to decide what that is.
To get to that conclusion you basically have to ignore the whole "unseen attackers and targets" section. When it says "Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness." I have to see that as three separate examples/ways to be unseen.
Like being invisible ? Where, I must add, the rules are extremely clear. Do you call breathing "making noise? I don't.
I don't think the PHB does either.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
The example they use seems quite far from just breathing tbh.
JC clarified and stated in combat you know where something is... Otherwise it's a stupid game of battleship that slows everything down.
The way I rule it, your position is only unknown if you are hidden. If being unseen was all it took for your position to be unknown, there would be no point in the "An invisible creature can always try to hide," line.
The thing is that they certainly are not hidden. They could see each other perfectly fine.
I thought you specified no line of sight in this example? That's what I took "not in front of the door" to mean.
And another member of the party might be seeing them fine
Yeah, but they're still hidden from the person in room A. That might seem like splitting hairs but being hidden only make sense with regard to a subset of creatures of interest. If being hidden required avoiding absolutely every possible observer, all sorts of irrelevant circumstances would spoil hiding attempts: there's a feral rat in the dark alley you ducked into, you happen to be scryed from halfway across the world, you're trying to blend into a crowd, or you beat every enemy's passive Perception but not that one guy in the party that has a passive Perception of 23.
And you would allow a simple perception check to detect someone just breathing across a room ?
Generally a perception check only applies if the observer is actively looking. For an unaware bystander I'd use passive Perception and either roll Stealth for the invisible creature or pick a fixed DC depending on whether they're actually trying to avoid notice or not.
Circumstances where someone is in the same scene as someone else yet literally no one is in a position to have any chance of noticing them are extremely rare.
Like being invisible ? Where, I must add, the rules are extremely clear. Do you call breathing "making noise? I don't.
Yes, moving air makes noise. I stand by what I said. The circumstances where you'd ask the question "am I hidden from X" and X has literally 0 chance of detecting you are almost completely disjoint circles. You haven't offered a single example that isn't artificial. The only one that's actually likely to come up in a real game is pairing magical darkness or invisibility with the Silence spell, in which case yeah, you're pretty much unseen and unheard no matter what you do, so unless they have a way of sniffing you out you're petty much guaranteed to be hidden by default.
Nope....I am le stupid...you are answering the SECOND question!
While it does somewhat apply to the second question, I actually did mean to post that in a different thread. Accidentally closed the page while typing it and started over in the wrong thread...
The way I rule it, your position is only unknown if you are hidden. If being unseen was all it took for your position to be unknown, there would be no point in the "An invisible creature can always try to hide," line.
Of course it would, if you do something (attack, spell, shout or similar) then your position becomes known.
The way I rule it, your position is only unknown if you are hidden. If being unseen was all it took for your position to be unknown, there would be no point in the "An invisible creature can always try to hide," line.
Of course it would, if you do something (attack, spell, shout or similar) then your position becomes known.
Right... And for your position to no longer be known, do you need to A) be invisible, B) hide, or C) be heavily obscured (darkness/fog/cover/etc)?
This is something I approached a lot like Lyxen for some time. I remember discussing this when discussing Shadow Monks sitting in their own darkness with blindsight that does not actually breach through the radius of said darkness.
Unfortunately, you're simply not correct Lyxen.
There is already a thread on this. With a link to the conversation between James Haeck and Jeremy Crawford on the subject. You don't even have to listen to the thing because Filcat breaks it all down.
The game does not have a mechanism for passive stealth, which is essentially what you are describing. Stealth is only an active condition that someone takes an action to achieve. You are not automatically hidden because you are not visible.
Now DMs I have played with have not ruled this way, generally ruling that some kind of check was necessary to find said invisible creature even when they were making no attempt to hide. I imagine many people would treat it something like this. But it is a homebrew rule plain and simple.
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Hi, I have some questions,
1) if an archer outside the magical darkness wants to shoot a target within the magical darkness, by RAW he would shoot normal (advantage and disadvantage are canceled). But if there is no magic darkness he would also shoot normal. That is, there is no difference for shooting a target in or out of magical darkness if you know where it is the target, is that correct?
2) If a prepared action takes place in the next round, can you use your ready action and make an attack of opportunity that round?
Thx.
Bear in mind if no one involved in the fight can see anything, you'll be weirdly subject to the following conditions:
Here's an excellent post (the one by Chicken_Champ) attempting to get into the often contradictory weeds of 5E visibility. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/102520-if-at-disadvantage-always-fight-blind#c13
RAW that is correct. Unless a creature is hidden, its approximate position is known.
However, the DM can decide that a roll for a creature to hide is not required due to circumstances like noise preventing their approximate location from being known.This is DM dependent but if a creature is not hidden then its position is approximately known sufficient to make an attack (at disadvantage since you can't see them or a normal roll if they also can't see you).
It is important to note though that the rules also state that a creature that makes an attack or casts a spell gives away their location no matter what the conditions. So, if a creature attacks you will know where they are at the time they attack even if the DM rules that they do not need to make a check to hide.
Note: DMs are free to change the rules so it is best to check with your DM as to how they run vision rules.
No. Ready action and attack of opportunity are two different things, either of which will use your reaction.
Your character has one reaction that refreshes at the start of their turn.
If a character readies an action then they specify a set of conditions that will cause them to do something - move, make an attack etc. If the conditions happen then the character can choose to perform the readied action and doing so costs their reaction.
If a character with a readied action they have not taken yet is given the possibility of an opportunity attack due to someone running by then they can choose to use their reaction to make the opportunity attack but since they only have one reaction, they will no longer be able to take their readied action since they don't have their reaction left.
A character that has used a readied action, has also used their reaction and as a result can not make an opportunity attack that turn or do anything else that requires a reaction (cast shield or counterspell for example).
Hidden is unseen and unheard.
"because with your way of wording things, you could argue that you know the position of every creature in a dungeon, city or plane."
The above is an absolutely ridiculous exaggeration. I have no idea why you would make such a statement since my comments, taken in context, do not even remotely imply that.
My response also indicated that the DM can and does decide when a creature may be automatically hidden because it is both unseen and unheard. This could be because of ambient noise, distance or many other factors. Obviously, creatures that can't be seen or heard are hidden.
However, a creature, in range to be seen and/or heard - is not hidden unless it tries to hide by taking the Hide action or when the DM decides that is not necessary due to environmental factors.
I'm just saying that the default condition for a creature is that its location is known unless it is hidden. You seem to think creatures are hidden unless something makes them noticeable. I disagree with that since when I play, an invisible creature standing in the corner of a room will need to make a stealth check to remain unnoticed while you seem to think it remains hidden until it does something to draw attention.
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Anyway, characters in D&D are heroes with exceptional abilities and senses. You made the comment that it would not be possible to determine a creatures location accurately enough based on it making some noise. On the other hand, there are humans capable of using echolocation apparently able to localize the position of moving objects (like a basketball) in real time. If people are capable of that sort of sound localization, I'd think a trained D&D character might be quite capable of estimating the position of a creature based on the sounds it makes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_echolocation
Either way, it is a DM call, but the simple rules employed by 5e, which fail at times due to their simplicity, don't seem to be that bad an approach most of the time.
Here's what the rules say:
So the rules clearly do assume that avoiding detection from a creature that could notice you requires a deliberate effort on your part, and most situations that warrant stealth will generally fall into exploration or combat. What situation are you supposing doesn't fall into either set of rules and lets someone ignore the description of the Stealth skill?
This is a bad faith argument. No one's proposing a combat scenario that spans from one side of a city to the other or from one plane to the next, and the rules already have caveats explaining that passive Perception doesn't apply for creatures that don't have any way of noticing you in the first place.
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The original question is obviously a combat scenario so your discussion of out of combat stealth is not relevant and off topic.
In combat you do know the position of any invisible/heavy obscured combatant unless they hide or there is a reason they could possibly be distracted (up to DM).
In the scenario described there is not enough detail to suggest the archer would be distracted, therefore it is assumed they know the combatant''s position automatically and can attack them normally in this case.
You wouldn't say they're hiding, but you could certainly say they're hidden. That's true of both the dictionary meaning of the word and the particular meaning 5e uses.
Unless your invisible guy doesn't need to breathe, they're still either making noise or making an active attempt to mask it. If you happen to have a situation where there was already an invisible guy in the room that never moves and never breathes as long as you're there, fair enough, but that's a situation so contrived it's not even a typical D&D situation, let alone a simple, real-life situation.
Circumstances where someone is in the same scene as someone else yet literally no one is in a position to have any chance of noticing them are extremely rare.
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It comes down to simplicity sake 90% of the time it comes up.
If a creature is just going to sit in the corner and not do anything for combat its easy because you just have them sit there....
One with the Shadows would be an example here...the warlock simply does not want to participate in the combat? Sure I guess...
Outside of combat one would assume the warlock would attempt to hide its breath...but due to the poor wording on the ability taking the Hide action would make it visible:
"When you are in an area of dim light or darkness, you can use your action to become invisible until you move or take an action or a reaction"
But do they need to do a Hide action out of combat? Likely not? Maybe? Do they smell? Its up to the DM.
In combat its very clear....if you are in the initiative and do not take the Hide action folks know where you are at if you are in a reasonable distance. Every DM gets to decide what that is.
All in all in the attempt to make it "Simple" they actually did the exact opposite and I have seen it discussed/played differently by literally every table I have been a part of.
Lyxen already quoted the rule in the DMG reiterating what i said, so I am just going to make a flow chart of events based on timing:
I think this might be a different thread?
Nope....I am le stupid...you are answering the SECOND question!
To get to that conclusion you basically have to ignore the whole "unseen attackers and targets" section. When it says "Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness." I have to see that as three separate examples/ways to be unseen.
I don't think the PHB does either.
The example they use seems quite far from just breathing tbh.
JC clarified and stated in combat you know where something is... Otherwise it's a stupid game of battleship that slows everything down.
The way I rule it, your position is only unknown if you are hidden. If being unseen was all it took for your position to be unknown, there would be no point in the "An invisible creature can always try to hide," line.
I thought you specified no line of sight in this example? That's what I took "not in front of the door" to mean.
Yeah, but they're still hidden from the person in room A. That might seem like splitting hairs but being hidden only make sense with regard to a subset of creatures of interest. If being hidden required avoiding absolutely every possible observer, all sorts of irrelevant circumstances would spoil hiding attempts: there's a feral rat in the dark alley you ducked into, you happen to be scryed from halfway across the world, you're trying to blend into a crowd, or you beat every enemy's passive Perception but not that one guy in the party that has a passive Perception of 23.
Generally a perception check only applies if the observer is actively looking. For an unaware bystander I'd use passive Perception and either roll Stealth for the invisible creature or pick a fixed DC depending on whether they're actually trying to avoid notice or not.
Yes, moving air makes noise. I stand by what I said. The circumstances where you'd ask the question "am I hidden from X" and X has literally 0 chance of detecting you are almost completely disjoint circles. You haven't offered a single example that isn't artificial. The only one that's actually likely to come up in a real game is pairing magical darkness or invisibility with the Silence spell, in which case yeah, you're pretty much unseen and unheard no matter what you do, so unless they have a way of sniffing you out you're petty much guaranteed to be hidden by default.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
While it does somewhat apply to the second question, I actually did mean to post that in a different thread. Accidentally closed the page while typing it and started over in the wrong thread...
Of course it would, if you do something (attack, spell, shout or similar) then your position becomes known.
Right... And for your position to no longer be known, do you need to A) be invisible, B) hide, or C) be heavily obscured (darkness/fog/cover/etc)?
This is something I approached a lot like Lyxen for some time. I remember discussing this when discussing Shadow Monks sitting in their own darkness with blindsight that does not actually breach through the radius of said darkness.
Unfortunately, you're simply not correct Lyxen.
There is already a thread on this. With a link to the conversation between James Haeck and Jeremy Crawford on the subject. You don't even have to listen to the thing because Filcat breaks it all down.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/2793-stealth-advice-from-jeremy-crawford
The game does not have a mechanism for passive stealth, which is essentially what you are describing. Stealth is only an active condition that someone takes an action to achieve. You are not automatically hidden because you are not visible.
Now DMs I have played with have not ruled this way, generally ruling that some kind of check was necessary to find said invisible creature even when they were making no attempt to hide. I imagine many people would treat it something like this. But it is a homebrew rule plain and simple.