For example, if a human warlock - casts Eldritch Blast has the option to knock back 10' - would this work even against say, a massive creature like a Kraken?
RAW I say yes, as there is nothing in the description that says it couldn't, but when I've run games, I say only up to one size category larger just like with sentinal.
For example, if a human warlock - casts Eldritch Blast has the option to knock back 10' - would this work even against say, a massive creature like a Kraken?
There is no size limit. It will work against gargantuan creatures like Ancient Dragons and Warforged Colossi.
Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
Just to avoid future issues. Assuming you're DM'ing for a warlock, be sure to tell them that you intend to apply these restrictions before they pick the invocation :).
Edit: Or perhaps give them a fair shot at changing their mind once they're up to speed on the rules.
Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
Counter suggestion - either don't or please consider that Eldritch Blast is the main Warlock spell in the game. Its his iconic tool.
If you want to change Eldritch blast try this approach - it applys to Large and smaller creatures in general. If you want to push larger creatures, you need multiple hits to do so. So pushing a Huge creature requires 2 hits (rounded down) to push 10ft. - pushing a Gargantuan requires 3 hits to push 10ft.
While this still nerfs the Eldritch Blast, it at least allows the Warlock a chance of doing what he does to a small amount and showcase the power of his Eldritch Blasts still.
Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
Counter suggestion - either don't or please consider that Eldritch Blast is the main Warlock spell in the game. Its his iconic tool.
If you want to change Eldritch blast try this approach - it applys to Large and smaller creatures in general. If you want to push larger creatures, you need multiple hits to do so. So pushing a Huge creature requires 2 hits (rounded down) to push 10ft. - pushing a Gargantuan requires 3 hits to push 10ft.
While this still nerfs the Eldritch Blast, it at least allows the Warlock a chance of doing what he does to a small amount and showcase the power of his Eldritch Blasts still.
Not to mention that it also requires an Eldritch Invocation and warlocks don’t have very many of those. By itself the spell doesn’t have a knock back ability.
I’d also add that because they generally have such long reaches, knocking a huge or gargantuan creature back 10’ probably won’t change combat that dramatically…except in those really cool dramatic moments when you might want it to happen.
RAW I say yes, as there is nothing in the description that says it couldn't, but when I've run games, I say only up to one size category larger just like with sentinal.
Your talking about two different effects though, sentinel makes sense because its an attack from your melee weapon, so stopping someone huge when your medium kinda doesn't make sense. Eldritch blast is eldritch blast though, if a frost giant casts it, an ancient dragon or a gnome, its the same spell regardless hence why it can knock back targets regardless.
I can see maybe saying it stops at larger/huge since it is kinda weird that the impact knocks back a wolf as well as it knocks back a dragon though, but hey game mechanics
Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
So like most have said in this thread, I'd recommend against it.
Warlocks already have limited spells, and taking its signature spell and limiting further when you have to use an invocation to even activate this? Your argument it's a low level spell, my argument being that invocations aren't spells(except when they are!), they are specific features given by their pact from their patron deity. That's why it affects things, because it's not the cantrip that pushes, its the power of the deity that enables the push.
As a DM, at lower levels this will totally affect combat in the warlocks favor since creatures without flight or range are going to have a very difficult time with it, but at later levels combatants are going to start targetting the warlock in battle because now they pushing people back and forth all the time.
That, and with most games being less than level 11? They get to push two creatures per turn or one creature twice. Maybe four instances of it if they somehow action surge or quicken thanks to multiclass tomfoolery. That's not that game breaking, it's just not.
Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
So like most have said in this thread, I'd recommend against it.
Warlocks already have limited spells, and taking its signature spell and limiting further when you have to use an invocation to even activate this? Your argument it's a low level spell, my argument being that invocations aren't spells(except when they are!), they are specific features given by their pact from their patron deity. That's why it affects things, because it's not the cantrip that pushes, its the power of the deity that enables the push.
As a DM, at lower levels this will totally affect combat in the warlocks favor since creatures without flight or range are going to have a very difficult time with it, but at later levels combatants are going to start targetting the warlock in battle because now they pushing people back and forth all the time.
That, and with most games being less than level 11? They get to push two creatures per turn or one creature twice. Maybe four instances of it if they somehow action surge or quicken thanks to multiclass tomfoolery. That's not that game breaking, it's just not.
Though it sure gets fun when the enemy is hit by Eldritch Blast 2 times, gets pushed back 20 feet while also applying Lance of lethargy, suffers a ray of frost and the mobile slasher hits him... Now he is 20 feet away with a 30 feet speed debuff. If he doesn't have ranged main attacks he all the sudden has a problem if his speed isn't 50ft or has a huge reach etc. 😂
Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
So like most have said in this thread, I'd recommend against it.
Warlocks already have limited spells, and taking its signature spell and limiting further when you have to use an invocation to even activate this? Your argument it's a low level spell, my argument being that invocations aren't spells(except when they are!), they are specific features given by their pact from their patron deity. That's why it affects things, because it's not the cantrip that pushes, its the power of the deity that enables the push.
As a DM, at lower levels this will totally affect combat in the warlocks favor since creatures without flight or range are going to have a very difficult time with it, but at later levels combatants are going to start targetting the warlock in battle because now they pushing people back and forth all the time.
That, and with most games being less than level 11? They get to push two creatures per turn or one creature twice. Maybe four instances of it if they somehow action surge or quicken thanks to multiclass tomfoolery. That's not that game breaking, it's just not.
Though it sure gets fun when the enemy is hit by Eldritch Blast 2 times, gets pushed back 20 feet while also applying Lance of lethargy, suffers a ray of frost and the mobile slasher hits him... Now he is 20 feet away with a 30 feet speed debuff. If he doesn't have ranged main attacks he all the sudden has a problem if his speed isn't 50ft or has a huge reach etc. 😂
But that requires significant class resources on the Warlocks part...still not really gamebreaking, but an interesting demonstration of what a Warlock can do that others classes can't.
Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
So like most have said in this thread, I'd recommend against it.
Warlocks already have limited spells, and taking its signature spell and limiting further when you have to use an invocation to even activate this? Your argument it's a low level spell, my argument being that invocations aren't spells(except when they are!), they are specific features given by their pact from their patron deity. That's why it affects things, because it's not the cantrip that pushes, its the power of the deity that enables the push.
As a DM, at lower levels this will totally affect combat in the warlocks favor since creatures without flight or range are going to have a very difficult time with it, but at later levels combatants are going to start targetting the warlock in battle because now they pushing people back and forth all the time.
That, and with most games being less than level 11? They get to push two creatures per turn or one creature twice. Maybe four instances of it if they somehow action surge or quicken thanks to multiclass tomfoolery. That's not that game breaking, it's just not.
Though it sure gets fun when the enemy is hit by Eldritch Blast 2 times, gets pushed back 20 feet while also applying Lance of lethargy, suffers a ray of frost and the mobile slasher hits him... Now he is 20 feet away with a 30 feet speed debuff. If he doesn't have ranged main attacks he all the sudden has a problem if his speed isn't 50ft or has a huge reach etc. 😂
But that requires significant class resources on the Warlocks part...still not really gamebreaking, but an interesting demonstration of what a Warlock can do that others classes can't.
Not just the warlock, we're talking what, 2 invocations, 2 feats, 3 actions? If the party as a whole is willing to dedicate all of those resources to do that, honestly, they deserve to reap the award.
Though it sure gets fun when the enemy is hit by Eldritch Blast 2 times, gets pushed back 20 feet while also applying Lance of lethargy, suffers a ray of frost and the mobile slasher hits him... Now he is 20 feet away with a 30 feet speed debuff. If he doesn't have ranged main attacks he all the sudden has a problem if his speed isn't 50ft or has a huge reach etc. 😂
This feels like the part of the superhero movie where they all figure out how to work together to win the battle. Very fun and dramatic!
A gargantuan kraken has grabbed several party members in its tentacles.
A single knock-back blast from the Warlock knows the kraken back out of reach of the grabbed party members and they are instantly freed.
You need to remove the PCs beyond the reach of the kraken to break the grapples, and krakens have a reach of 30 feet. Unless it's holding them as far away as possible, it's going to take more than that to free the PCs.
I have a further question regarding the Eldrich Blast knockback. If I cause a target to be knocked back and they happen to hit a wall that is, let's say 15 feet behind them. Does that target take additional damage or have to roll a knock-out roll to see if they are dazed or knocked out from the force of impact?
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Is there a size limit?
For example, if a human warlock - casts Eldritch Blast has the option to knock back 10' - would this work even against say, a massive creature like a Kraken?
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RAW I say yes, as there is nothing in the description that says it couldn't, but when I've run games, I say only up to one size category larger just like with sentinal.
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There is no size limit. It will work against gargantuan creatures like Ancient Dragons and Warforged Colossi.
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Thank you both - I was figuring RAW it doesn't imply any limits - but logically (yes, I get it's a world of magic!) - but a (relatively) low level spell knocking like a Kraken or Ancient Dragon 10' back seems odd. I'll probably apply size limits in my game as well, similar to Dobb.
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Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
Just to avoid future issues. Assuming you're DM'ing for a warlock, be sure to tell them that you intend to apply these restrictions before they pick the invocation :).
Edit: Or perhaps give them a fair shot at changing their mind once they're up to speed on the rules.
Counter suggestion - either don't or please consider that Eldritch Blast is the main Warlock spell in the game. Its his iconic tool.
If you want to change Eldritch blast try this approach - it applys to Large and smaller creatures in general. If you want to push larger creatures, you need multiple hits to do so. So pushing a Huge creature requires 2 hits (rounded down) to push 10ft. - pushing a Gargantuan requires 3 hits to push 10ft.
While this still nerfs the Eldritch Blast, it at least allows the Warlock a chance of doing what he does to a small amount and showcase the power of his Eldritch Blasts still.
Not to mention that it also requires an Eldritch Invocation and warlocks don’t have very many of those. By itself the spell doesn’t have a knock back ability.
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I’d also add that because they generally have such long reaches, knocking a huge or gargantuan creature back 10’ probably won’t change combat that dramatically…except in those really cool dramatic moments when you might want it to happen.
I’ve never played a warlock but I say let them have their fun. RAW it works even if logically it doesn’t.
But if you don’t want to allow it, the player needs to know up front.
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Your talking about two different effects though, sentinel makes sense because its an attack from your melee weapon, so stopping someone huge when your medium kinda doesn't make sense. Eldritch blast is eldritch blast though, if a frost giant casts it, an ancient dragon or a gnome, its the same spell regardless hence why it can knock back targets regardless.
I can see maybe saying it stops at larger/huge since it is kinda weird that the impact knocks back a wolf as well as it knocks back a dragon though, but hey game mechanics
So like most have said in this thread, I'd recommend against it.
Warlocks already have limited spells, and taking its signature spell and limiting further when you have to use an invocation to even activate this? Your argument it's a low level spell, my argument being that invocations aren't spells(except when they are!), they are specific features given by their pact from their patron deity. That's why it affects things, because it's not the cantrip that pushes, its the power of the deity that enables the push.
As a DM, at lower levels this will totally affect combat in the warlocks favor since creatures without flight or range are going to have a very difficult time with it, but at later levels combatants are going to start targetting the warlock in battle because now they pushing people back and forth all the time.
That, and with most games being less than level 11? They get to push two creatures per turn or one creature twice. Maybe four instances of it if they somehow action surge or quicken thanks to multiclass tomfoolery. That's not that game breaking, it's just not.
Though it sure gets fun when the enemy is hit by Eldritch Blast 2 times, gets pushed back 20 feet while also applying Lance of lethargy, suffers a ray of frost and the mobile slasher hits him... Now he is 20 feet away with a 30 feet speed debuff. If he doesn't have ranged main attacks he all the sudden has a problem if his speed isn't 50ft or has a huge reach etc. 😂
But that requires significant class resources on the Warlocks part...still not really gamebreaking, but an interesting demonstration of what a Warlock can do that others classes can't.
Not just the warlock, we're talking what, 2 invocations, 2 feats, 3 actions? If the party as a whole is willing to dedicate all of those resources to do that, honestly, they deserve to reap the award.
A gargantuan kraken has grabbed several party members in its tentacles.
A single knock-back blast from the Warlock knows the kraken back out of reach of the grabbed party members and they are instantly freed.
This feels like the part of the superhero movie where they all figure out how to work together to win the battle. Very fun and dramatic!
You need to remove the PCs beyond the reach of the kraken to break the grapples, and krakens have a reach of 30 feet. Unless it's holding them as far away as possible, it's going to take more than that to free the PCs.
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I think the kraken would drag the grappled party members along with it.
If you apply the size difference adjustment would it also work going down in size?
Now your blasting halfthings twice as far.
Who needs a space program when you have Warlocks sending Halflings into orbit.
I have a further question regarding the Eldrich Blast knockback. If I cause a target to be knocked back and they happen to hit a wall that is, let's say 15 feet behind them. Does that target take additional damage or have to roll a knock-out roll to see if they are dazed or knocked out from the force of impact?