Scenario: A character uses a weapon (lets call it a dagger) infused with Returning Weapon to make a ranged attack against a level 3+ Monk. The Monk is able to catch and make an attack with said dagger due to the Deflect Missiles class ability.
Who does the weapon return to?
Returning Weapon stats that it returns to the wielder after it is used to make a range attack. Would the Monk be considered the wielder as they are making the last ranged attack? Would the Returning Weapon still return to the original thrower of the weapon after the Monk's attack is resolved? Or would the Returning Weapon return to the thrower before the Monk could even catch and make an attack?
Returning Weapon
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the thrown property
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it, and it returns to the wielder’s hand immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack.
Deflect Missiles
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level.
If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can spend 1 ki point to make a ranged attack with the weapon or piece of ammunition you just caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack, which has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
I would think that a dagger would not necessarily count as a "missile", but I can see since it is a says ranged weapon attack it would be a point of contention. If it came up at my table, I might make a acrobatics vs arcana roll to determine who holds on to the weapon.
Simultaneous Effects If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen.
As both effects seem to happen at the same time, I believe the above quote explains the relevant ruling.
If I were to look closer at the timing of the two effects, Returning Weapon triggers after a hit (before damage) and the Deflect Missiles reaction also triggers after hit, but the effect of catching the weapon relies on the potential damage being reduced to 0.Rolling damage clearly happens after a hit is declared, so you could argue that the effect of Returning Weapon happens before Deflect Missiles as the weapon returns immediately after the hit is declared (before the damage roll). However, following RAW, the Attack Roll and the Damage Roll are not two separate steps despite them existing in a clear sequence.
Personally I'd have the Monk roll a DEX check against a DC too see if he can get a proper grip on the weapon before it returns to the attacker (I wouldn't consider the Monk the wielder at this point in time).
If the monk reduces the damage to 0 or less he has caught the weapon in his hand, and if he then uses a ki point he can make an attack with it and it would return to his hand.
Although they may be referring to only the attack roll with the returning weapon, I think of both the attack (to hit) roll and the damage roll as the completion of... 'make a ranged attack.'
Since the monk's ability occurs at reaction speed I would say finish his interaction with the weapon 1st, as even the 1 ki spent to attack is considered part of the same reaction so it would have to be settled 1st, then the weapon would return.
But the weapon wouldn't return if the monk reduces the damage to 0 as it would be considered caught by the monk. The monk is now the wielder of the weapon whether or not he attacks with it.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Simultaneous effects are resolved in an order determined by active player (or DM), so the answer depends on whose turn it is. On the Monk's turn, no question, the weapon returns to the Monk, as the monk will choose to have the simultaneous effects of their attack and the return happen in that order, and when the return happens, it checks the last ranged attack that happened with it. On the original thrower's turn, the return can happen first, and your DM has to answer the broader question of how a returning weapon interacts with objects and creatures around it (this is why at my table, returning weapons teleport back), as the monk will be holding it.
Under absolutely no circumstances can the monk throw the weapon, but it returns to the original thrower.
I'd rule the returning weapon can have its damage reduced, and if reduced to 0, the monk can catch it and make the attack. If the monk makes the attack, that resolves, and the returning weapon then returns to the owner's hand. If the monk doesn't make the attack (as if to keep the weapon), the weapon then returns to the owner's hand.
To me, the language of the returning weapon does not specify when during the attack the effect triggers (after hit/before damage, etc), so by default it would mean after the attack is fully resolved. Because the Monk's reaction to reduce the damage, catch the weapon/missile, and possibly attack (which are explicitly all part of the same reaction) are part of the resolution of the original attack, the entire chain can go off before the Returning Weapon returns the weapon.
I'd rule that the dagger returns before the monk can catch it.
1) The dagger returns IMMEDIATELY after making a ranged weapon attack.
Game mechanic wise - it doesn't mention resolving the attack or rolling damage.
2) The monk uses their reaction AFTER the damage is determined to attempt to reduce the damage. If the damage is reduced to zero the monk has the option to catch the weapon and spend a ki point to make a ranged attack. However, I would say that by this point the weapon has already returned to the creature that made the ranged attack. Since the "returning" property is magical and doesn't describe the mechanism of returning, the weapon could just as easily vanish and teleport to the attackers hand as it might fly back. If the weapon teleported it is very easy to picture it being unable to be caught. Similarly, if it flew fast enough, it might also be impossible to catch.
From the PHB attacks are resolved as follows:
"3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise."
In the end, it comes down to how the DM wants to run it. Personally, I would allow the monk to reduce the damage from the attack using Deflect Missiles but they would be unable to catch the weapon since by that point it would have returned to the attacker.
If the dagger is infused with Returning weapon - wouldn't it be attuned to the owner?
If attuned, it should return to the original owner as there wouldn't be enough time in that attack to re-attune it to the Monk due to the brief interaction that a Monk using Deflect Missiles would have with it.
Otherwise - the monk IS returning it, so its fulfilling the requirement...:P
I'd rule the returning weapon can have its damage reduced, and if reduced to 0, the monk can catch it and make the attack. If the monk makes the attack, that resolves, and the returning weapon then returns to the owner's hand. If the monk doesn't make the attack (as if to keep the weapon), the weapon then returns to the owner's hand.
There is another reason this should not work though.
After the monk throws it, that is making a ranged attack with it, so it should come back to their hand. Would the weapon just hover in mid air trying to return to both hands?
As was mentioned, the monk is not the attuned owner. I doubt there are any weapons that return that do not require attunement but, I didn't double check. If the weapon does require attunement, then if the monk is not attuned to it, it will never return to him even if he were to catch and redirect it.
I'd rule that the dagger returns before the monk can catch it.
1) The dagger returns IMMEDIATELY after making a ranged weapon attack.
Game mechanic wise - it doesn't mention resolving the attack or rolling damage.
2) The monk uses their reaction AFTER the damage is determined to attempt to reduce the damage. If the damage is reduced to zero the monk has the option to catch the weapon and spend a ki point to make a ranged attack. However, I would say that by this point the weapon has already returned to the creature that made the ranged attack. Since the "returning" property is magical and doesn't describe the mechanism of returning, the weapon could just as easily vanish and teleport to the attackers hand as it might fly back. If the weapon teleported it is very easy to picture it being unable to be caught. Similarly, if it flew fast enough, it might also be impossible to catch.
From the PHB attacks are resolved as follows:
"3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise."
In the end, it comes down to how the DM wants to run it. Personally, I would allow the monk to reduce the damage from the attack using Deflect Missiles but they would be unable to catch the weapon since by that point it would have returned to the attacker.
Wouldn't the Monk's reaction to the attack be part of the "rules that specify otherwise"? Is a reaction part of an attack in that this particular reaction is part of determining damage?
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at here, but no, this case is not included in "rules that specify otherwise". That statement is reserved for attacks that hit but deal no damage due to the description of that specific attack.
I want to point out again that according to RAW, the Attack Roll and the Damage Roll happen in the same step. There doesn't seem to be a smaller unit defined in RAW when it comes to attacks, despite the clear sequence of the two rolls.
Weapon return and monk catch trigger simultaneously
Owner decides which occurs first
Monk can't catch the returned dagger
Monk's turn
Owner throws and hits
Monk reduces damage to 0
Weapon return and monk catch trigger simultaneously
Monk decides which happens
Monk catches dagger and can throw it
Monk is not attuned to the dagger, so can not benefit from its magical effects
Weapon must be required by owner
If it was the owner's turn (and it probably was), monk gets fist full of air. If it was the monk's turn (readied action), monk can catch it, but if they throw it, it does not return to anyone.
monk's reaction has to finish 1st, and this weird ability of his allows him to use a ki point to make an attack with the weapon all with the same reaction.
The would actually catch the weapon, throw it and have it return to his hand.
All before the weapon would return to the original wielder, and only if it was magical in some way. If the weapon is a regular weapon (like a boomerang) and not magical then it remains in the monk's hand.
Magical or not, the monk's reaction finishes before the weapon can return to it's wielder's hand.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
This is a classic example of people being entirely focused on exact literal individual word meanings and not understanding what those words mean when put into a sentence with other words. If the monk reduces the damage to 0 then he catches it in his hands - this means that the missile did not hit and stick in his arm. It was caught in mid air before hitting. If the returning property only triggers after a hit (which is not what the text supports) as someone confidently stated earlier, then it would never trigger on a miss or if the monk catches it as it didn't hit. The text clearly states that the weapon returns immediately after making an attack - it doesn't need to hit. So the order should be 1. Attack roll, 2. Damage roll on a hit, 3. Deflect missile roll, 4. Dagger returns via magical teleportation to the owner, 5. Apply any damage remaining.
These things aren't rocket science, the game is a fantasy adventure aimed at kids, not English professors.
Weapon return and monk catch trigger simultaneously
Owner decides which occurs first
Monk can't catch the returned dagger
Monk's turn
Owner throws and hits
Monk reduces damage to 0
Weapon return and monk catch trigger simultaneously
Monk decides which happens
Monk catches dagger and can throw it
Monk is not attuned to the dagger, so can not benefit from its magical effects
Weapon must be required by owner
If it was the owner's turn (and it probably was), monk gets fist full of air. If it was the monk's turn (readied action), monk can catch it, but if they throw it, it does not return to anyone.
As has been pointed out, there is actually no attunement requirement. The artificer likely could not even remove the enchantment until after their next long rest.
That is news to me. Every other infusion even close to that useful requires attunement. Weird.
Guess that means on the monk's turn it is their dagger now.
It is worthy of note, though that the wording is that it returns to the wielder's hand after being used for a ranged attack, rather than to the thrower's hand. Does the monk count as a wielder holding it so briefly?
A creature that holds a weapon to use it is wielding it. If the monk is able to attack with it, it is wielded.
A creature that holds a weapon to use it is wielding it. If the monk is able to attack with it, it is wielded.
Right, but there is the paradox that it still returns at the end of the initial attack. So then, if the monk rethrows it, does it return to the monk then back to the original wielder? Or does it return the monk twice?
Like I said in my first post. Whoever's turn it is determines the order simultaneous effects occur.
For example, deflect missile and returning weapon both occur after hit, so the character whose turn it is decides if the monk gets to catch it before it returns.
The rules arent clear how to handle interrupted triggers, but based on other reactions I'd assume they get negated.
Even if the interrupted trigger isn't negated, the monk can make the counterattack as part of the same reaction, then whoever's turn it is gets to decide the order the 2 return triggers occur (which ultimately decides who it returns to).
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Scenario: A character uses a weapon (lets call it a dagger) infused with Returning Weapon to make a ranged attack against a level 3+ Monk. The Monk is able to catch and make an attack with said dagger due to the Deflect Missiles class ability.
Who does the weapon return to?
Returning Weapon stats that it returns to the wielder after it is used to make a range attack. Would the Monk be considered the wielder as they are making the last ranged attack? Would the Returning Weapon still return to the original thrower of the weapon after the Monk's attack is resolved? Or would the Returning Weapon return to the thrower before the Monk could even catch and make an attack?
Returning Weapon
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the thrown property
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it, and it returns to the wielder’s hand immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack.
Deflect Missiles
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level.
If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can spend 1 ki point to make a ranged attack with the weapon or piece of ammunition you just caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack, which has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
I would think that a dagger would not necessarily count as a "missile", but I can see since it is a says ranged weapon attack it would be a point of contention. If it came up at my table, I might make a acrobatics vs arcana roll to determine who holds on to the weapon.
As both effects seem to happen at the same time, I believe the above quote explains the relevant ruling.
If I were to look closer at the timing of the two effects, Returning Weapon triggers after a hit (before damage) and the Deflect Missiles reaction also triggers after hit, but the effect of catching the weapon relies on the potential damage being reduced to 0. Rolling damage clearly happens after a hit is declared, so you could argue that the effect of Returning Weapon happens before Deflect Missiles as the weapon returns immediately after the hit is declared (before the damage roll).
However, following RAW, the Attack Roll and the Damage Roll are not two separate steps despite them existing in a clear sequence.
Personally I'd have the Monk roll a DEX check against a DC too see if he can get a proper grip on the weapon before it returns to the attacker (I wouldn't consider the Monk the wielder at this point in time).
If the monk reduces the damage to 0 or less he has caught the weapon in his hand, and if he then uses a ki point he can make an attack with it and it would return to his hand.
Although they may be referring to only the attack roll with the returning weapon, I think of both the attack (to hit) roll and the damage roll as the completion of... 'make a ranged attack.'
Since the monk's ability occurs at reaction speed I would say finish his interaction with the weapon 1st, as even the 1 ki spent to attack is considered part of the same reaction so it would have to be settled 1st, then the weapon would return.
But the weapon wouldn't return if the monk reduces the damage to 0 as it would be considered caught by the monk. The monk is now the wielder of the weapon whether or not he attacks with it.
Simultaneous effects are resolved in an order determined by active player (or DM), so the answer depends on whose turn it is. On the Monk's turn, no question, the weapon returns to the Monk, as the monk will choose to have the simultaneous effects of their attack and the return happen in that order, and when the return happens, it checks the last ranged attack that happened with it. On the original thrower's turn, the return can happen first, and your DM has to answer the broader question of how a returning weapon interacts with objects and creatures around it (this is why at my table, returning weapons teleport back), as the monk will be holding it.
Under absolutely no circumstances can the monk throw the weapon, but it returns to the original thrower.
I'd rule the returning weapon can have its damage reduced, and if reduced to 0, the monk can catch it and make the attack. If the monk makes the attack, that resolves, and the returning weapon then returns to the owner's hand. If the monk doesn't make the attack (as if to keep the weapon), the weapon then returns to the owner's hand.
To me, the language of the returning weapon does not specify when during the attack the effect triggers (after hit/before damage, etc), so by default it would mean after the attack is fully resolved. Because the Monk's reaction to reduce the damage, catch the weapon/missile, and possibly attack (which are explicitly all part of the same reaction) are part of the resolution of the original attack, the entire chain can go off before the Returning Weapon returns the weapon.
It depends on who’s turn it is. Active player dictates order of operations.
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I'd rule that the dagger returns before the monk can catch it.
1) The dagger returns IMMEDIATELY after making a ranged weapon attack.
Game mechanic wise - it doesn't mention resolving the attack or rolling damage.
2) The monk uses their reaction AFTER the damage is determined to attempt to reduce the damage. If the damage is reduced to zero the monk has the option to catch the weapon and spend a ki point to make a ranged attack. However, I would say that by this point the weapon has already returned to the creature that made the ranged attack. Since the "returning" property is magical and doesn't describe the mechanism of returning, the weapon could just as easily vanish and teleport to the attackers hand as it might fly back. If the weapon teleported it is very easy to picture it being unable to be caught. Similarly, if it flew fast enough, it might also be impossible to catch.
From the PHB attacks are resolved as follows:
"3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise."
In the end, it comes down to how the DM wants to run it. Personally, I would allow the monk to reduce the damage from the attack using Deflect Missiles but they would be unable to catch the weapon since by that point it would have returned to the attacker.
If I missed this above, my apologies.
If the dagger is infused with Returning weapon - wouldn't it be attuned to the owner?
If attuned, it should return to the original owner as there wouldn't be enough time in that attack to re-attune it to the Monk due to the brief interaction that a Monk using Deflect Missiles would have with it.
Otherwise - the monk IS returning it, so its fulfilling the requirement...:P
The owner now being the monk?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
As was mentioned, the monk is not the attuned owner. I doubt there are any weapons that return that do not require attunement but, I didn't double check. If the weapon does require attunement, then if the monk is not attuned to it, it will never return to him even if he were to catch and redirect it.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at here, but no, this case is not included in "rules that specify otherwise". That statement is reserved for attacks that hit but deal no damage due to the description of that specific attack.
I want to point out again that according to RAW, the Attack Roll and the Damage Roll happen in the same step. There doesn't seem to be a smaller unit defined in RAW when it comes to attacks, despite the clear sequence of the two rolls.
Here is how it works:
If it was the owner's turn (and it probably was), monk gets fist full of air. If it was the monk's turn (readied action), monk can catch it, but if they throw it, it does not return to anyone.
monk's reaction has to finish 1st, and this weird ability of his allows him to use a ki point to make an attack with the weapon all with the same reaction.
The would actually catch the weapon, throw it and have it return to his hand.
All before the weapon would return to the original wielder, and only if it was magical in some way. If the weapon is a regular weapon (like a boomerang) and not magical then it remains in the monk's hand.
Magical or not, the monk's reaction finishes before the weapon can return to it's wielder's hand.
This is a classic example of people being entirely focused on exact literal individual word meanings and not understanding what those words mean when put into a sentence with other words. If the monk reduces the damage to 0 then he catches it in his hands - this means that the missile did not hit and stick in his arm. It was caught in mid air before hitting. If the returning property only triggers after a hit (which is not what the text supports) as someone confidently stated earlier, then it would never trigger on a miss or if the monk catches it as it didn't hit. The text clearly states that the weapon returns immediately after making an attack - it doesn't need to hit. So the order should be 1. Attack roll, 2. Damage roll on a hit, 3. Deflect missile roll, 4. Dagger returns via magical teleportation to the owner, 5. Apply any damage remaining.
These things aren't rocket science, the game is a fantasy adventure aimed at kids, not English professors.
That is news to me. Every other infusion even close to that useful requires attunement. Weird.
Guess that means on the monk's turn it is their dagger now.
A creature that holds a weapon to use it is wielding it. If the monk is able to attack with it, it is wielded.
How to catch a thrown weapon instructional video.
https://youtu.be/Co8vGjEz-xU
It's all in the reflexes.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
because it says immediatly id rule that the weapon returns before anything else can be done with it.
Like I said in my first post. Whoever's turn it is determines the order simultaneous effects occur.
For example, deflect missile and returning weapon both occur after hit, so the character whose turn it is decides if the monk gets to catch it before it returns.
The rules arent clear how to handle interrupted triggers, but based on other reactions I'd assume they get negated.
Even if the interrupted trigger isn't negated, the monk can make the counterattack as part of the same reaction, then whoever's turn it is gets to decide the order the 2 return triggers occur (which ultimately decides who it returns to).