Strength and Dexterity are really the same thing. One is how powerful you are, the other his how well you use the power you generate. Muscles have red fibers that generate the power, and white fibers that give them fine control. Look at the difference between a Bodybuilder and a Gymnast. Bodybuilders concentrate on the red fibers and get huge muscles. Gymnasts exercise just as much, but they are more into the white fibers and end up more slender.
If you want to take a normal quarterstaff and add Finesse as a property, all you need to do is put a set of metal caps on the ends. That's a Warstaff, and I'd base the damage around a Mace. That's the only one in the Simple weapon list that doesn't have any properties. It's a Martial weapon, because it takes a degree of training to use something like that.
From a balance perspective, if quarterstaffs were finesse, a rogue with polearm master gets a somewhat reliable way of getting opportunity attacks and having sneak attack multiple times per round on a regular basis (not necessarily every round but a lot more consistently than they otherwise would). I dont know if this is WHY it's not finesse but certainly a potential balance concern.
When used in one hand it does 1d6, and the secondary attack does 1d8. When used in both hands, both ends doing 1d8 Bludgeoning.
I think you just accidentally made a slightly better revenant double bladed scimitar that doesnt require a specific race with a specific feat in a specific setting. 10 out of 10, would abuse the hell out of.
From a balance perspective, if quarterstaffs were finesse, a rogue with polearm master gets a somewhat reliable way of getting opportunity attacks and having sneak attack multiple times per round on a regular basis (not necessarily every round but a lot more consistently than they otherwise would). I dont know if this is WHY it's not finesse but certainly a potential balance concern.
This is already legal, the rogue just has to carry a rapier in their other hand. Frankly, as I alluded to earlier in this thread, from a balance perspective, a *Martial* Finesse Quarterstaff would just be balanced from WOTC's perspective, and the only real reason we don't have one is developer laziness in expanding the weapons table. In fact, you could add this to Quarterstaff as a house rule and be fine:
"Martial Finesse: if you are proficient with all Martial weapons, this weapon gains the Finesse quality while you wield it."
Might be. We were discussing ways for people to use martial weapons who didn't have them on their list. What does the Feat do? It adds +1 to the your character's Dex, and lets you add Marital weapons to the list of weapons you can use. Possibly, ones with Finesse. I thought this was a good place to discuss rules? Am I in the wrong place for that? Sorry to bother you all if so.
In the real world strength is as important to being effective with a bow as dex, especially European style long and short bows. Whatever. It is a game decision. It may have had some thought behind it or not, but no one here will be able to tell you what that was.
There is no reason that I see to change it, Dex is already too important, as someone else pointed out. If you are sad that your monk can't use Dex with their staff, you're confused. If you are sad that some other class can't use dex with their melee weapons, make a different choice -- you get flexibility that monks don't.
In the real world, you can't have what D&D defines as high dexterity without having a lot of strength: just check out the gymnasts in the Olympics right now or watch a Bruce Lee movie. You've got to have serious muscle tone to move yourself around quickly. The difference is which muscles you focus on building.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
3.5 had a d4 blunt Sap you could sneak attack with, if I recall, and I've missed that flexibility a few times.
My own interpretation of Improvised Weapon rules doesn't preclude the DM assigning them weapon properties, so I think that taking Tavern Brawler as a sort of feat tax to buy in using another weapon in a new Finesse-y-er way (possibly with a reduced weapon damage dice?) might be an OK patch, for a player that really wants to find a blunt or 2H finesse weapon and DM who wants to accommodate without too much re-balancing of the world.
In 3.5, a rogue could sneak attack with any weapon they were proficient with. That included maces and clubs. The sap was distinctive because it dealt non-lethal damage so you could sneak attack someone and render them unconscious instead of dead.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Because "blunt instrument" and "finesse" don't go together.
I'm guessing, based on blogs and podcasts, that DEX is already the most valuable ability score, and more finesse weapons just makes it even better.
I personally see no problem with a finesseclub as a nunchaku. IMO, If there’s anything that makes sense as a finesse weapon that does bludgeoning damage, it’s that. At 1d4, and without light or thrown, it doesn’t add much to the Dex hegemony.
(Both of these qualify as off-hand weapons for 2-weapon fighting as they possess the Light property and they can use Str OR Dex since they're Finesse weapons)
Rapier: Finesse, 1D8 Piercing damage
(This is the go-to weapon for the Duelling Fighting Style as it's the most damaging 1-handed weapon. Note that it's not Light so it cannot be an off-hand weapon without the Dual Wield Feat)
[sic]
As a technical point: When two-weapon fighting, both weapons must have the light property without the Dual Wielder feat. And technically there isn’t an “offhand weapon,” per se.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
If your character is wielding a shortsword and shortsword. They could take the attack action using either weapon, whichever weapon is used first is the weapon that gets used for the attack action. The alternate weapon must be used for the bonus action Two-Weapon Fighting attack.
Fwiw... It would be game changing to have a finesse spear or staff. It's bad enough that technically a Rogue can dual wield a spear with another finesse weapon and technically meet the RAW of the Polearm Master feat.
*While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.*
That might make a cool homebrew magic item though. Just be careful what you wish for.
Crossbows are already better and would remain better than this would be. A finesse spear or staff... Game changing? Doubt.
The only class that'd even care or benefit would be a rogue. So, what exactly are they gaining that they can't already do?
PAM to trigger attacks when enemies enter range? Oh they already can. That op attack being used with a finesse weapon? Oh, no... already can.
... Something else then? The bonus action attack with the butt of the weapon? Eh, that's not game changing that's just bonus action attack. Rogues don't generally hit hard on a 2nd attack in a turn so this ain't all that great TBH. Again, crossbow are better, after taking crossbow expert you can BA attack with them anyway. Plus with sharpshooter you're adding a static +10 damage per shot. That trumps anything a finesse quarterstaff could do.
So not super gamechanging for the rogue. Who else then? Bladesinger? Finesse quarterstaff would be neat, sure. But is it mechanically any better than using a rapier or dual wielding scimitars? No. They can't even use the thing two handed while bladesinging, so that's out. Use in conjunction with PAM? They already could. You'd wanna take Warcaster 1st anyway so that your op attacks can be funneled into spell casts. And, you could take a quarterstaff in 1 hand rapier in the other and people would provoke when they enter range and you could either take that attack with the rapier or swap it to a spell cast anyway. There ain't no real gain here for Bladesingers either. Not one we'd call "game changing" anyway.
Who else stands to break the game? Not druids, with a cantrip they can make the quarterstaff a wisdom weapon, that hasn't broken anything. Not monks, they already can treat it as a dex weapon. Hex locks can even treat it as a charisma weapon.
What exactly breaks in the game if it were a finesse weapon?
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You'll notice that those guys are all pretty beefy. And quickly tapping someone with one of those really wouldn't do anything to them.
Remember that in DnD the weapon modifier is used both to check whether the attack hits and how much damage it does.
The guys in that video definitely use DEX as their attack modifier. As for damage modifier.. I'm not so sure... I never practiced Escrima, but from Kendo I can tell you that you can quite a mean hit just from using your wrists properly, without needing too much strength.
WotC releasing an official Finesse spear shouts to the entire D&D universe that PAM Rogues are a thing, by extension making it abundantly clear to everyone that Sneak Attack is supposed to be used multiple times per round. Spear would become the new Rapier. PAMbuckler build guides spring up all over YouTube. Dogs and Cats living together. Pure anarchy.
WotC releasing an official Finesse spear shouts to the entire D&D universe that PAM Rogues are a thing, by extension making it abundantly clear to everyone that Sneak Attack is supposed to be used multiple times per round. Spear would become the new Rapier. PAMbuckler build guides spring up all over YouTube. Dogs and Cats living together. Pure anarchy.
Rogues can already make multiple attacks per round using Crossbow mastery or a subclass ability. And the rules for Sneak Attack limit it to once per turn with the exception of a few subclass capstones.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
WotC releasing an official Finesse spear shouts to the entire D&D universe that PAM Rogues are a thing, by extension making it abundantly clear to everyone that Sneak Attack is supposed to be used multiple times per round. Spear would become the new Rapier. PAMbuckler build guides spring up all over YouTube. Dogs and Cats living together. Pure anarchy.
Rogues can already make multiple attacks per round using Crossbow mastery or a subclass ability. And the rules for Sneak Attack limit it to once per turn with the exception of a few subclass capstones.
I think the issue would be with PAM, you could potentially get it with your reaction when someone enters your reach, since that wouldn't be on your turn. Then also get it on your turn.
Strength and Dexterity are really the same thing. One is how powerful you are, the other his how well you use the power you generate. Muscles have red fibers that generate the power, and white fibers that give them fine control. Look at the difference between a Bodybuilder and a Gymnast. Bodybuilders concentrate on the red fibers and get huge muscles. Gymnasts exercise just as much, but they are more into the white fibers and end up more slender.
If you want to take a normal quarterstaff and add Finesse as a property, all you need to do is put a set of metal caps on the ends. That's a Warstaff, and I'd base the damage around a Mace. That's the only one in the Simple weapon list that doesn't have any properties. It's a Martial weapon, because it takes a degree of training to use something like that.
Warstaff. 1d6 Bludgeoning, Versatile, Finesse, Special.
When used in one hand it does 1d6, and the secondary attack does 1d8. When used in both hands, both ends doing 1d8 Bludgeoning.
<Insert clever signature here>
From a balance perspective, if quarterstaffs were finesse, a rogue with polearm master gets a somewhat reliable way of getting opportunity attacks and having sneak attack multiple times per round on a regular basis (not necessarily every round but a lot more consistently than they otherwise would). I dont know if this is WHY it's not finesse but certainly a potential balance concern.
I think you just accidentally made a slightly better revenant double bladed scimitar that doesnt require a specific race with a specific feat in a specific setting. 10 out of 10, would abuse the hell out of.
This is already legal, the rogue just has to carry a rapier in their other hand. Frankly, as I alluded to earlier in this thread, from a balance perspective, a *Martial* Finesse Quarterstaff would just be balanced from WOTC's perspective, and the only real reason we don't have one is developer laziness in expanding the weapons table. In fact, you could add this to Quarterstaff as a house rule and be fine:
"Martial Finesse: if you are proficient with all Martial weapons, this weapon gains the Finesse quality while you wield it."
Behold! Weapon Master. It's in the Player's Handbook.
You have practiced extensively with a variety of weapons, gaining the following benefits:
<Insert clever signature here>
How does one of the worst feats in the game help here? It doesn't add Finesse to any weapons.
Did you post in the right thread? This doesn't really apply to the discussion.
Might be. We were discussing ways for people to use martial weapons who didn't have them on their list. What does the Feat do? It adds +1 to the your character's Dex, and lets you add Marital weapons to the list of weapons you can use. Possibly, ones with Finesse. I thought this was a good place to discuss rules? Am I in the wrong place for that? Sorry to bother you all if so.
<Insert clever signature here>
In the real world, you can't have what D&D defines as high dexterity without having a lot of strength: just check out the gymnasts in the Olympics right now or watch a Bruce Lee movie. You've got to have serious muscle tone to move yourself around quickly. The difference is which muscles you focus on building.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
In 3.5, a rogue could sneak attack with any weapon they were proficient with. That included maces and clubs. The sap was distinctive because it dealt non-lethal damage so you could sneak attack someone and render them unconscious instead of dead.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I personally see no problem with a finesse club as a nunchaku. IMO, If there’s anything that makes sense as a finesse weapon that does bludgeoning damage, it’s that. At 1d4, and without light or thrown, it doesn’t add much to the Dex hegemony.
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As a technical point: When two-weapon fighting, both weapons must have the light property without the Dual Wielder feat. And technically there isn’t an “offhand weapon,” per se.
If your character is wielding a shortsword and shortsword. They could take the attack action using either weapon, whichever weapon is used first is the weapon that gets used for the attack action. The alternate weapon must be used for the bonus action Two-Weapon Fighting attack.
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Fwiw... It would be game changing to have a finesse spear or staff. It's bad enough that technically a Rogue can dual wield a spear with another finesse weapon and technically meet the RAW of the Polearm Master feat.
*While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.*
That might make a cool homebrew magic item though. Just be careful what you wish for.
Crossbows are already better and would remain better than this would be. A finesse spear or staff... Game changing? Doubt.
The only class that'd even care or benefit would be a rogue. So, what exactly are they gaining that they can't already do?
PAM to trigger attacks when enemies enter range? Oh they already can. That op attack being used with a finesse weapon? Oh, no... already can.
... Something else then? The bonus action attack with the butt of the weapon? Eh, that's not game changing that's just bonus action attack. Rogues don't generally hit hard on a 2nd attack in a turn so this ain't all that great TBH. Again, crossbow are better, after taking crossbow expert you can BA attack with them anyway. Plus with sharpshooter you're adding a static +10 damage per shot. That trumps anything a finesse quarterstaff could do.
So not super gamechanging for the rogue. Who else then? Bladesinger? Finesse quarterstaff would be neat, sure. But is it mechanically any better than using a rapier or dual wielding scimitars? No. They can't even use the thing two handed while bladesinging, so that's out. Use in conjunction with PAM? They already could. You'd wanna take Warcaster 1st anyway so that your op attacks can be funneled into spell casts. And, you could take a quarterstaff in 1 hand rapier in the other and people would provoke when they enter range and you could either take that attack with the rapier or swap it to a spell cast anyway. There ain't no real gain here for Bladesingers either. Not one we'd call "game changing" anyway.
Who else stands to break the game? Not druids, with a cantrip they can make the quarterstaff a wisdom weapon, that hasn't broken anything. Not monks, they already can treat it as a dex weapon. Hex locks can even treat it as a charisma weapon.
What exactly breaks in the game if it were a finesse weapon?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
At this point? It doesn't break the game, but only because Dex is already heavily overvalued compared to Strength.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Remember that in DnD the weapon modifier is used both to check whether the attack hits and how much damage it does.
The guys in that video definitely use DEX as their attack modifier. As for damage modifier.. I'm not so sure... I never practiced Escrima, but from Kendo I can tell you that you can quite a mean hit just from using your wrists properly, without needing too much strength.
WotC releasing an official Finesse spear shouts to the entire D&D universe that PAM Rogues are a thing, by extension making it abundantly clear to everyone that Sneak Attack is supposed to be used multiple times per round. Spear would become the new Rapier. PAMbuckler build guides spring up all over YouTube. Dogs and Cats living together. Pure anarchy.
Rogues can already make multiple attacks per round using Crossbow mastery or a subclass ability. And the rules for Sneak Attack limit it to once per turn with the exception of a few subclass capstones.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think the issue would be with PAM, you could potentially get it with your reaction when someone enters your reach, since that wouldn't be on your turn. Then also get it on your turn.
Yeah, giving rogues more ways to make opportunity attacks on other characters' turns would be pretty deadly.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.