Yeah, opening PAM up to Sneak Attack would be a pretty big swing in the power of a Rogue.
Not really. A rogue intentionally fighting in melee and staying there is a soon-to-be-dead rogue. Crossbows are better.
I don't understand the comparison to using a crossbow here, because using a crossbow means that you cannot opportunity attack (unless you want to use the crossbow as an improvised club, which still would not get you sneak attack).
This is only true if the rogue is the one armed man. Generally, PCs have all their limbs, so can use the dagger, shortsword, rapier, etc they're carry to make opportunity attacks. Crossbow is only in one hand.
Even if we ignored the OA when they enter your reach, having a 10 ft. reach for your OA attacks with sneak attack would be pretty ridiculous.
Huh? What are you talking about? Spear and quarterstaff are both normal weapons, not reach weapons. How would a finesse quarterstaff give someone a 10ft reach??
I mean, if you did want to get a 10ft reach sneak attack with a finesse weapon you'd use the default option in the PHB, the whip.
Fun Fact: You can already do the things you seem to be worried about. Take PAM, hold a whip in one hand and a spear in the other. Now when an enemy closes into range that provokes from PAM and you can opportunity attack them with the whip. If they leave melee that provokes from the spears reach and you can opportunity attack them with the whip. If they start 5ft away and go further that provokes from the whips reach and you can opportunity attack them with the whip.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I like the idea of an acrobat rogue with a pole, but I agree that PAM is too much on a rogue (and so is using Battlemaster's Commander's Strike on your rogue buddy but no one ever seems to care about that). Rogue probably just shouldn't get off-turn Sneak Attack. No other class is designed to deal all their damage in one shot, and several game elements don't really account for it.
My homebrew solutions if anyone cares:
A staff fighting feat that gives the PAM bonus attack, +1 AC, and reduces running jump requirement to 5 feet
Yeah, opening PAM up to Sneak Attack would be a pretty big swing in the power of a Rogue.
Not really. A rogue intentionally fighting in melee and staying there is a soon-to-be-dead rogue. Crossbows are better.
I don't understand the comparison to using a crossbow here, because using a crossbow means that you cannot opportunity attack (unless you want to use the crossbow as an improvised club, which still would not get you sneak attack).
This is only true if the rogue is the one armed man. Generally, PCs have all their limbs, so can use the dagger, shortsword, rapier, etc they're carry to make opportunity attacks. Crossbow is only in one hand.
Even if we ignored the OA when they enter your reach, having a 10 ft. reach for your OA attacks with sneak attack would be pretty ridiculous.
Huh? What are you talking about? Spear and quarterstaff are both normal weapons, not reach weapons. How would a finesse quarterstaff give someone a 10ft reach??
I mean, if you did want to get a 10ft reach sneak attack with a finesse weapon you'd use the default option in the PHB, the whip.
Fun Fact: You can already do the things you seem to be worried about. Take PAM, hold a whip in one hand and a spear in the other. Now when an enemy closes into range that provokes from PAM and you can opportunity attack them with the whip. If they leave melee that provokes from the spears reach and you can opportunity attack them with the whip. If they start 5ft away and go further that provokes from the whips reach and you can opportunity attack them with the whip.
This is not remotely true. You don't have two different reaches because you are wielding two weapons with different reach. Your reach is 10 ft. by fact of the whip.
Of course you have two different reaches. The spear has reach 5ft and the whip has reach 10ft.
Holding a whip doesn't increase the reach of the spear, dude. Of course you still have a reach of 5ft with the spear.
Disagree on what the rules say, in a technical/precise way? Check it out: "Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it (see chapter 9)."
The weapon with reach ONLY adds that reach to attacks "with it" and for determining opportunity attacks "with it" when you use it. You still have a 5ft reach with the spear.
And you're just going to be holding the spear/quarterstaff and never using it? And this is still going to work with PAM? I don't think any DM would let you get away with that.
DMs are always free to homebrew different rules for their game than the ones presented in the rulebooks. But, if a DM is following the rules, yes, that is how it works.
The rule that allows you to OP Attack when they enter your reach doesn't say that this attack must be made with the polearm... only that you are weilding it and they enter yyour reach with it: "While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon."
You would also need a second feat (Dual Wielder) in order to make this work. Which is a huge investment (and waste) because Rogues should be bumping Dex.
That is entirely untrue. You only need that feat if you're trying to two-weapon fight while equipped in this manner. Ie attacking with your "other hand" as a bonus action on your turn. You can wield whatever combination of weapons you want and have sufficient hands to hold. Wanna wield two longswords? Have at it. You can't use Two-weapon-fighting bonus actions while doing so, but you can certainly wield them both. And, hey, if you have Extra attack or whatever, you can switch freely between these weapons for those attacks. The restriction on two weapon fighting is only for the bonus action attack option.
You cannot opportunity attack while wielding a crossbow unless it is a hand crossbow. Both light and heavy crossbows are two-handed. Even using a hand crossbow, you can't wield a dagger because you now lack the free hand with which to load the crossbow.
You are a treasure trove of misinformation today! Let's take a quick peak at what Crossbow expert feat says, yeah? "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding."
The whole purpose of the feat and style is to fight with a weapon in one hand and also take pop shots with the crossbow, and it explicitly tells us we can do so. It, for good measure, says: "You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient."
What's more is that you can actually Opp attack even if you were holding just the crossbow. Nothing prevents that. This wouldn't help you sneak attack on that opp attack, but you could do it if you wanted.
And you are just going to say it doesn't increase the power because you think that a melee Rogue is the "wrong way to play"?
Not wrong, just less powerful. Increasing the power of the less powerful option doesn't strike me as a bad thing. Ranged rogue is superior in basically every way.
I would argue 50%+ of Rogues play in melee (with the Swashbuckler really benefiting from it), so giving them a boost this big would definitely swing the power balance of the Rogue.
Naw, especially since they can already do the things you're concerned this would let them do. And, crossbows would still be better anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The rule that allows you to Opp Attack when they enter your reach doesn't say that this attack must be made with the polearm... only that you are wielding it and they enter your reach with it: "While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon."
"that weapon" being your glaive/halber/pike/quarterstaff/ or spear.
It is funny when someone calls me wrong and then demonstrates why I'm correct.
What does that quote mean? Enemies provoke when they enter the reach of the spear. Yes. When they enter within 5ft of you. That is the reach of the spear. This is what that sentence says.
So you can only opportunity attack on entry from 5 ft. when holding your spear.
Only? Where are you getting "only" from? If someone was wielding a spear and had PAM, and an enemy ran away from them. That would still provoke. Just because the feat grants new ways the enemy can provoke doesn't get rid of the default ways in which they do.
You are really, really stretching the RAW and taking it way beyond RAI.
Opportunity attacks are not required to be made with the weapon that's reach was used to determine if it was provoked or not. That's just a fact. You can disagree with the rules but that doesn't make it not RAI. How much you like or dislike a rule doesn't impact its validity in anything other than your own table. Don't like it? Homebrew it.
And I would argue that if you cannot attack with a weapon, that you are not technically wielding it. By just holding it and not using it, you're basically leaving it sheathed/stowed.
The rogue in question can attack with the spear, though. Why do you think they cannot? Is there some weird magic that prevents rogues from wielding spears?? It is a simple melee weapon, and they can use them. Having a weapon at the ready is how you make opportunity attacks.
Even a wizard wielding a dagger can make opportunity attacks with it. Even if he never uses his normal action or bonus actions to stab with it. Because he still has a weapon in hand and a reaction in which to stabbity-stab anyone who lets their guard down.
Any DM worth his salt is not going to let you just hold a spear and use all of PAM's benefits. By just holding it, you're basically leaving it sheathed.
So you're arguing that if someone had PAM and Warcaster enemies approaching into melee shouldn't provoke because the player is probably going to cast a spell instead of use the weapon via warcaster?
I mean, dude, if you want to create some weird system where you need to have attacked with the weapon within the last round or something to be able to make opportunity attacks or whatever that's cool and all but deeply into homebrew territory. I've never played at a table where having a weapon in hand means you can't make opportunity attacks unless you've used it recently. That seems super weird.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You are purposefully twisting my words. If you are holding a spear and a whip with PAM, enemies only provoke opportunity attacks when they come within 10 ft. of you or leave your 10 ft. reach.
This statement of yours is factually incorrect. You are again simply, wrong.
A Spear has a normal reach, is is not a Reach weapon. If you are wielding a spear and have PAM, enemies provoke whenever they enter your reach, ie come within 5ft of you, and also when they leave your reach, ie move 5ft away from you. Fact.
Similarly, while wielding a whip, enemies provoke whenever they leave your reach, ie move to more than 10ft away from you.
And, if you have a spear, and a whip, and PAM,, then all three of those situations apply. The provoke if they enter within 5ft, leave 5ft, or leave 10ft.
Not when they enter within 5 ft. of you, not when they walk only 5 ft. away from you. You do not have two "reaches" regardless of the weapons you are holding.
Yes. You do.
Please, I advise you reread the Reach property, and what it does. You seem very confused.
"Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it (see chapter 9)."
The Reach property ONLY modifies your reach in specific instances and in specific ways, as described in Chapter 5: Equipment. It is only increasing your reach for attack "with it" and for opportunity attacks "with it". Otherwise, your default 5ft reach is what you use. You always have a 5ft reach. Situationally, you might also have another reach in addition to that.
By your own admission, you plan to never ever attack with the spear. It is just sitting in your hand to magically grant you the benefits of PAM. (this is why PAM should remove spears and quarterstaves; the text of PAM even specifies your ability with reach weapons, so why they ever added non-reach weapons is beyond me). Using it this way says that you are so good with polearms that you don't even need to use a polearm to show how good you are with polearms.
Man do I have bad news for you! I have a character who is a full spellcaster who carries around a glaive, has PAM and Warcaster. Guess what he does when enemies come within 10ft? If you guessed: Attacks with the glaive... you'd be wrong. No, he casts a spell at the fool who dared get close.
If things go according to plan, this character should never...ever need to actually hit anything with that glaive. It is there purely to increase his spells per round.
You don't have to like combinations of abilities that create situations like this, but they're certainly intentional. That is a stated function of warcaster, to use an enemy's provoke to instead do something other than attack with the weapon who's reach caused them to provoke.
Does that make any sense to you? Does that seem RAI AT ALL? Your signature line even says "RAW<RAI. Play as intended."
Yes, it does. It absolutely does seem like RAI. They even design features that allow for it explicitly and not just by omission of exclusion... of course it is RAI.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Fwiw... Philosophically I'm inclined to agree with Ravno. It's technically a thing that could happen. If you're holding a spear in 1 hand, and a measley little dagger in the other, PAM says they provoke an opportunity attack. Period. They could have easily written "with it" but chose not to. They even added errata to PAM about the "ability modifier", in the first clause. They chose to leave the door open for Monks and Warlocks and other classes in the future that might benefit.
However, there's a difference between this being an outlier brought up by a rules lawyer, and being something that WotC intended Rogues to do with sneak attack + PAM.
There's no way I'd let a Rogue at my table do this every round. Maybe once per encounter or something. Allow the Rogue to "sneak attack" by faking with the spear to stab with a finesse sword.
After the first time eating an extra 30+ damage from this clever trick, enemies won't make the same mistake twice.
This exploit would allow L5 melee rogues to deal "fireball" levels of damage every round using 0 resources. [(1d6+3d6) X2].
All of this is a great lesson on the importance of a session 0, and being careful who you invite to your table. Make sure everyone involved is on the same page and head space.
Getting back to the OP, this is exactly why you'd want to think about home brewing a finesse spear. If it gets into the hands of the wrong Rogue, you've essentially doubled their damage output. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely A thing.
See, that just seems like a gross misuse of PAM. You really don't see any issue with taking the Polearm Master feat so that you can never ever use the glaive that just sits there in your hand magically giving you abilities for a reach weapon that you never use?
Enemies provoking attacks just means they've let their guard down. You're then free to capitalize on that however best suits you. If you have special training that allows you to cause enemies to drop their guard when approaching you because of your wielded spear, you're free to capitalize on that opening by shanking them with a dagger. This in both thematic and feel seem aligned with the rules, both as written and as intended.
The image of a whiling dervish of a rogue, twirling their spear/quarterstaff to distract, knock off-balance and generally force the enemy to overextend and then finishing foes by surgically landed dagger strikes seem to be 100% the intent of this combo and I have zero issues imagining what it'd look like as a fighting style.
I would 100% rule against this at my table, and PAM probably needs an errata to tie all of the features to actually using the polearm (and/or eliminate staves and spears).
So, you might get the 5 ft. opportunity attacks, but they must be made with the spear, missing out on sneak attack. Because reach specifies that 10 ft. is your range for opportunity attacks with that weapon. This kinda nullifies your argument that a finesse polearm basically already exists, as the "on-entry" attack must be made with a non-finesse weapon.
Yes if you homebrew the existing feats to not work the way they do... then, yes, they won't work the way they do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That quarterstaff video shows a single technique executed one handed. I'm sure there are some like that for Great axes too. In facts there's all kinds of artwork that shows this. The simple fact is the quarterstaff was being used two-handed.
Most of the arguments would require a complete overhaul of the weapon system. It would require bludgeoning weapons to take a damage step down (quarterstaff would no longer equal spear in damage). Then you could apply finesse in a balanced way. Low damage weapons (1d4( should have a new property to bring them up. Perhaps a hidden property.
Below is an example of how it could be revised using weapon properties.
Simple Melee Weapons
Name
Damage
Type
Weight
Traits
Club
1d4
bludgeoning
3
blunt,versatile 1d6
Dagger
1d4
piercing
1
Light, thrown 20/60, concealed
Greatclub
1d8
bludgeoning
10
twohanded, heavy, blunt
Handaxe
1d6
slashing
2
light, thrown 20/60
Javelin
1d6
piercing
2
Light, thrown 30/120
Mace
1d6
bludgeoning
4
versatile 1d8, blunt
Messer
1d6
slashing
3
Quarterstaff
1d6
bludgeoning
4
twohanded, blunt, finesse
Sickle
1d4
slashing
2
light, concealed
Scythe
1d8
slashing
5
two-handed, Heavy
Short Spear
1d6
piercing
3
versatile 1d8, thrown 20/60
Martial Melee Weapons
Name
Damage
Type
Weight
Traits
Arming Sword
1d8
slashing
3
Bastard Sword
1d8
slashing
4
versatile 1d10
Battleaxe
1d8
slashing
4
versatile 1d10
Estoc
1d8
Piercing
4
twohanded, finesse, bludgeoning secondary
Falchion
1d8
slashing
3
Flail
1d8
bludgeoning
5
versatile 1d10
Glaive
1d10
slashing
6
twohanded, heavy, reach 10ft
Greataxe
1d12
slashing
7
twohanded, heavy
Greatsword
2d6
slashing
6
twohanded, heavy
Halberd
1d10
slashing
6
twohanded, heavy, reach 10ft
Lance
1d8
piercing
6
Heavy, reach 10ft, special: couched 1d10, disadvantage at close range (5ft)
Longsword
1d8
slashing
4
versatile 1d10
Maul
1d10
bludgeoning
10
twohanded, heavy, blunt
Morningstar
1d8
piercing
4
versatile 1d10
Pike
1d8
piercing
18
twohanded, reach 15ft, heavy, disadvantage at close range (5ft)
Rapier
1d6
piercing
2
light
Sabre
1d8
slashing
3
Scimitar
1d8
slashing
3
Shortsword
1d6
piercing
2
light
Trident
1d6
piercing
4
versatile 1d8, thrown 20/60
Warhammer
1d6
bludgeoning/piercing
5
versatile 1d8, blunt
Warmace
1d8
bludgeoning
5
twohanded, blunt
Warspear
1d6
piercing
5
versatile 1d8, reach 10ft
Whip
1d4
slashing
2
Light, reach 10ft, nonlethal
Simple Ranged Weapons
Name
Damage
Type
Weight
Traits
Crossbow, heavy
1d10
piercing
18
ammunition 80/320, loading;action, heavy
Crossbow, light
1d8
piercing
5
ammunition 60/240, loading;action
Hand crossbow
1d4
piercing
2
ammunition 30/120,light, loading;bonus a.
Dart
1d4
piercing
1
light, thrown 20/60, concealed
Sling
1d4
bludgeoning
1
light, ammunition 30/120
Martial Ranged Weapons
Name
Type
Weight
Traits
Blowgun
1
piercing
1
ammunition 25/100,light, loading;bonus a., concealed
Longbow
1d8
piercing
3
ammunition 150/600, twohanded,heavy
Net
nil
nil
3
thrown (15), Special
Shortbow
1d6
piercing
2
ammunition 100/400, twohanded
Crossbows now can shoot only every other round, but hit very hard with shorter range. Crossbow master feat reduces loading time for light and heavy crossbow to bonus action and hand crossbow to free action(still need two hands to load a hand crossbow). Polearm feat now includes spears & trident
Most weapons start with 1d8 damage. For every boon reduce 1 die (12>10>8>6>4) and for every bane increase by one. Blunt reduces damage by one die, Non lethal strike reduces damage by one die except for blunt Light reduces damage by one die, Light allows finese reach 10ft reduces damage by one die, Heavy increases damage by one die, Heavy reduces movement by five feet twohanded increases damage by one die, concealed: advantage on surprise attacks If you have proficiency with a concealed weapon you also gain advantage on checks with Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) to hide the weapon. Piercing and slashing can switch damage type with a one die penalty All weapons can be thrown 10/30 Thrown property uses strength close range & dexterity long range to hit
Same as a dagger but lets you be creative and have a staff for a magic user that does the same as a dagger.
Let characters use a bonus action to attack with the butt end of the staff or spear, if they're using two hands. You can easily let go one hand to do somatic gestures without it counting as an action.
This allows more variety in the STORY which is important, and this preserves game mechanics by making them LIGHT and therefore just like a dagger. Not overpowered.
I've never heard of anyone wielding a staff and a shield simultaneously or using a staff as a single handed weapon. I can execute rudimentary display moves with a staff with a single hand, but they do not cary the strength required to cause true damage. To weaponize the staff, one needs two hands to provide both strength and mobility. Why not give staff the finesse ability and remove its ability to be wielded single handed?
I'm late to the game here, but you supplied videos of people utilizing a few one handed techniques while wielding the staff two-handed. Not really the same as being able to effectively utilize a staff consistently as a one-handed weapon.
Not really. A rogue intentionally fighting in melee and staying there is a soon-to-be-dead rogue. Crossbows are better.
This is only true if the rogue is the one armed man. Generally, PCs have all their limbs, so can use the dagger, shortsword, rapier, etc they're carry to make opportunity attacks. Crossbow is only in one hand.
Huh? What are you talking about? Spear and quarterstaff are both normal weapons, not reach weapons. How would a finesse quarterstaff give someone a 10ft reach??
I mean, if you did want to get a 10ft reach sneak attack with a finesse weapon you'd use the default option in the PHB, the whip.
Fun Fact: You can already do the things you seem to be worried about. Take PAM, hold a whip in one hand and a spear in the other. Now when an enemy closes into range that provokes from PAM and you can opportunity attack them with the whip. If they leave melee that provokes from the spears reach and you can opportunity attack them with the whip. If they start 5ft away and go further that provokes from the whips reach and you can opportunity attack them with the whip.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I like the idea of an acrobat rogue with a pole, but I agree that PAM is too much on a rogue (and so is using Battlemaster's Commander's Strike on your rogue buddy but no one ever seems to care about that). Rogue probably just shouldn't get off-turn Sneak Attack. No other class is designed to deal all their damage in one shot, and several game elements don't really account for it.
My homebrew solutions if anyone cares:
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Of course you have two different reaches. The spear has reach 5ft and the whip has reach 10ft.
Holding a whip doesn't increase the reach of the spear, dude. Of course you still have a reach of 5ft with the spear.
Disagree on what the rules say, in a technical/precise way? Check it out: "Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it (see chapter 9)."
The weapon with reach ONLY adds that reach to attacks "with it" and for determining opportunity attacks "with it" when you use it. You still have a 5ft reach with the spear.
DMs are always free to homebrew different rules for their game than the ones presented in the rulebooks. But, if a DM is following the rules, yes, that is how it works.
The rule that allows you to OP Attack when they enter your reach doesn't say that this attack must be made with the polearm... only that you are weilding it and they enter yyour reach with it: "While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon."
That is entirely untrue. You only need that feat if you're trying to two-weapon fight while equipped in this manner. Ie attacking with your "other hand" as a bonus action on your turn. You can wield whatever combination of weapons you want and have sufficient hands to hold. Wanna wield two longswords? Have at it. You can't use Two-weapon-fighting bonus actions while doing so, but you can certainly wield them both. And, hey, if you have Extra attack or whatever, you can switch freely between these weapons for those attacks. The restriction on two weapon fighting is only for the bonus action attack option.
You are a treasure trove of misinformation today! Let's take a quick peak at what Crossbow expert feat says, yeah? "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding."
The whole purpose of the feat and style is to fight with a weapon in one hand and also take pop shots with the crossbow, and it explicitly tells us we can do so. It, for good measure, says: "You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient."
What's more is that you can actually Opp attack even if you were holding just the crossbow. Nothing prevents that. This wouldn't help you sneak attack on that opp attack, but you could do it if you wanted.
Not wrong, just less powerful. Increasing the power of the less powerful option doesn't strike me as a bad thing. Ranged rogue is superior in basically every way.
Naw, especially since they can already do the things you're concerned this would let them do. And, crossbows would still be better anyway.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It is funny when someone calls me wrong and then demonstrates why I'm correct.
What does that quote mean? Enemies provoke when they enter the reach of the spear. Yes. When they enter within 5ft of you. That is the reach of the spear. This is what that sentence says.
Only? Where are you getting "only" from? If someone was wielding a spear and had PAM, and an enemy ran away from them. That would still provoke. Just because the feat grants new ways the enemy can provoke doesn't get rid of the default ways in which they do.
Opportunity attacks are not required to be made with the weapon that's reach was used to determine if it was provoked or not. That's just a fact. You can disagree with the rules but that doesn't make it not RAI. How much you like or dislike a rule doesn't impact its validity in anything other than your own table. Don't like it? Homebrew it.
The rogue in question can attack with the spear, though. Why do you think they cannot? Is there some weird magic that prevents rogues from wielding spears?? It is a simple melee weapon, and they can use them. Having a weapon at the ready is how you make opportunity attacks.
Even a wizard wielding a dagger can make opportunity attacks with it. Even if he never uses his normal action or bonus actions to stab with it. Because he still has a weapon in hand and a reaction in which to stabbity-stab anyone who lets their guard down.
So you're arguing that if someone had PAM and Warcaster enemies approaching into melee shouldn't provoke because the player is probably going to cast a spell instead of use the weapon via warcaster?
I mean, dude, if you want to create some weird system where you need to have attacked with the weapon within the last round or something to be able to make opportunity attacks or whatever that's cool and all but deeply into homebrew territory. I've never played at a table where having a weapon in hand means you can't make opportunity attacks unless you've used it recently. That seems super weird.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
This statement of yours is factually incorrect. You are again simply, wrong.
A Spear has a normal reach, is is not a Reach weapon. If you are wielding a spear and have PAM, enemies provoke whenever they enter your reach, ie come within 5ft of you, and also when they leave your reach, ie move 5ft away from you. Fact.
Similarly, while wielding a whip, enemies provoke whenever they leave your reach, ie move to more than 10ft away from you.
And, if you have a spear, and a whip, and PAM,, then all three of those situations apply. The provoke if they enter within 5ft, leave 5ft, or leave 10ft.
Yes. You do.
Please, I advise you reread the Reach property, and what it does. You seem very confused.
"Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it (see chapter 9)."
The Reach property ONLY modifies your reach in specific instances and in specific ways, as described in Chapter 5: Equipment. It is only increasing your reach for attack "with it" and for opportunity attacks "with it". Otherwise, your default 5ft reach is what you use. You always have a 5ft reach. Situationally, you might also have another reach in addition to that.
Man do I have bad news for you! I have a character who is a full spellcaster who carries around a glaive, has PAM and Warcaster. Guess what he does when enemies come within 10ft? If you guessed: Attacks with the glaive... you'd be wrong. No, he casts a spell at the fool who dared get close.
If things go according to plan, this character should never...ever need to actually hit anything with that glaive. It is there purely to increase his spells per round.
You don't have to like combinations of abilities that create situations like this, but they're certainly intentional. That is a stated function of warcaster, to use an enemy's provoke to instead do something other than attack with the weapon who's reach caused them to provoke.
Yes, it does. It absolutely does seem like RAI. They even design features that allow for it explicitly and not just by omission of exclusion... of course it is RAI.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Fwiw... Philosophically I'm inclined to agree with Ravno. It's technically a thing that could happen. If you're holding a spear in 1 hand, and a measley little dagger in the other, PAM says they provoke an opportunity attack. Period. They could have easily written "with it" but chose not to. They even added errata to PAM about the "ability modifier", in the first clause. They chose to leave the door open for Monks and Warlocks and other classes in the future that might benefit.
However, there's a difference between this being an outlier brought up by a rules lawyer, and being something that WotC intended Rogues to do with sneak attack + PAM.
There's no way I'd let a Rogue at my table do this every round. Maybe once per encounter or something. Allow the Rogue to "sneak attack" by faking with the spear to stab with a finesse sword.
After the first time eating an extra 30+ damage from this clever trick, enemies won't make the same mistake twice.
This exploit would allow L5 melee rogues to deal "fireball" levels of damage every round using 0 resources. [(1d6+3d6) X2].
All of this is a great lesson on the importance of a session 0, and being careful who you invite to your table. Make sure everyone involved is on the same page and head space.
Getting back to the OP, this is exactly why you'd want to think about home brewing a finesse spear. If it gets into the hands of the wrong Rogue, you've essentially doubled their damage output. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely A thing.
Enemies provoking attacks just means they've let their guard down. You're then free to capitalize on that however best suits you. If you have special training that allows you to cause enemies to drop their guard when approaching you because of your wielded spear, you're free to capitalize on that opening by shanking them with a dagger. This in both thematic and feel seem aligned with the rules, both as written and as intended.
The image of a whiling dervish of a rogue, twirling their spear/quarterstaff to distract, knock off-balance and generally force the enemy to overextend and then finishing foes by surgically landed dagger strikes seem to be 100% the intent of this combo and I have zero issues imagining what it'd look like as a fighting style.
Yes if you homebrew the existing feats to not work the way they do... then, yes, they won't work the way they do.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That quarterstaff video shows a single technique executed one handed. I'm sure there are some like that for Great axes too. In facts there's all kinds of artwork that shows this. The simple fact is the quarterstaff was being used two-handed.
Most of the arguments would require a complete overhaul of the weapon system. It would require bludgeoning weapons to take a damage step down (quarterstaff would no longer equal spear in damage). Then you could apply finesse in a balanced way. Low damage weapons (1d4( should have a new property to bring them up. Perhaps a hidden property.
Below is an example of how it could be revised using weapon properties.
Crossbows now can shoot only every other round, but hit very hard with shorter range.
Crossbow master feat reduces loading time for light and heavy crossbow to bonus action and hand crossbow to free action(still need two hands to load a hand crossbow).
Polearm feat now includes spears & trident
Most weapons start with 1d8 damage. For every boon reduce 1 die (12>10>8>6>4) and for every bane increase by one.
Blunt reduces damage by one die,
Non lethal strike reduces damage by one die except for blunt
Light reduces damage by one die,
Light allows finese
reach 10ft reduces damage by one die,
Heavy increases damage by one die,
Heavy reduces movement by five feet
twohanded increases damage by one die,
concealed: advantage on surprise attacks
If you have proficiency with a concealed weapon you also gain advantage on checks with Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) to hide the weapon.
Piercing and slashing can switch damage type with a one die penalty
All weapons can be thrown 10/30
Thrown property uses strength close range & dexterity long range to hit
Homebrew it.
Light Staff: 1d4 bludgeoning / Finesse, light, thrown (range 20/60)
Light Club: 1d4 bludgeoning / Finesse, light, thrown (range 20/60)
Light Spear: 1d4 piercing / Finesse, light, thrown (range 20/60)
Same as a dagger but lets you be creative and have a staff for a magic user that does the same as a dagger.
Let characters use a bonus action to attack with the butt end of the staff or spear, if they're using two hands. You can easily let go one hand to do somatic gestures without it counting as an action.
This allows more variety in the STORY which is important, and this preserves game mechanics by making them LIGHT and therefore just like a dagger. Not overpowered.
I'm late to the game here, but you supplied videos of people utilizing a few one handed techniques while wielding the staff two-handed. Not really the same as being able to effectively utilize a staff consistently as a one-handed weapon.
The original post uses finesse in a manner that few of us would recognise.
The staff is just a stick - onvio0usly inferior to a stick with a spike or blade attached.