I am not fond of the Sage Advice on surprise. Especially saying you all roll initiative but the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order and surprised one skips its first turn in a fight.
If activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative - whether or not someone is surprised - then every combattants act in order and no one ever skips a turn. They just don't do anything during it that's all.
One thing though, following this Sage Advice let Assassinate works better ☺
I also think its worth pointing out how completely SAC fails to address Surprise confusion. It just sort of... copy pastes the PHB, but rearranges the sentences and changes it from third-person to talking about "you"?
Near as I can tell, here's the sum of the 'wisdom' that SAC adds to Surprise, instead of just copy-pasting the existing rule:
"you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares." (which, considering the earlier discussion about how ambushes only really work if your DM is open to using group stealth checks, is kind of a bad piece of advice for any DM whose players actually want/need to surprise anyone)
"...the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order." (which, is incorrect, because actually all combatants take turns in initiative order)
"...remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action." (this is a good reminder, because folks often forget that rule)
"In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight." (this is a flat out error that contradicts the written rules).
"In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor." (this is true, but also, by summing everything up with a reference to a "round"... basically circles back to re-implant the mistaken impression that a "surprise round" is what's happening, rather than individual combatants being surprised up until they end their first turn but being otherwise normal after that)
So.... one helpful reminder (#3) that isn't actually unique to surprise, one piece of bad advice for a DM (#1), and three misstatements/misleading statements (#2, #4, #5).
If SAC were actually a rulebook, this would bother me a lot more. :)
I think the new surprise works reasonably well except for edge cases like the one we saw earlier.
To me, the main difference from previous editions is that a high initiative roll allows you to recover your reaction and become "no longer surprised" during the "surprise round" (anachronistic term used only for comparison to previous editions).
Rolling initiative up front seems like a good idea, so you don't bog down play with rolling after the "free surprise round", but I don't know if that was the rationale behind the change. I never had any problem with rolling initiative after the surprise round so.. YMMV
So perhaps the change was motivated by the idea of the character that is "just so fast" that it is hard to really surprise at all. If so, then it does emulate that pretty well.
The only problems with it are the edge cases, and the interaction with features like the Assassin which rely on surprise (which can really suck or be totally awesome based on a single die roll -- and to me that's the main problem with them: inconsistency).
As for the edge case example: I tend to feel that there needs to be some inciting incident that kicks off combat. It could be someone reaching for their weapon. It could be an arrow flying out of the darkness. It might be the sound a bowstring taking tension. 99% of the time that's enough to justify using surprise as written.
I also think its worth pointing out how completely SAC fails to address Surprise confusion. It just sort of... copy pastes the PHB, but rearranges the sentences and changes it from third-person to talking about "you"?
Near as I can tell, here's the sum of the 'wisdom' that SAC adds to Surprise, instead of just copy-pasting the existing rule:
"you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares." (which, considering the earlier discussion about how ambushes only really work if your DM is open to using group stealth checks, is kind of a bad piece of advice for any DM whose players actually want/need to surprise anyone)
It can promote party-splitting tactics, where the stealthy ones go ahead and try to surprise the guards, or whatever. And since many "non stealthy" types are heavily armored melee tanks, this can lead to them arriving too late for the fun. So I agree, without group-stealth checks, this can lead to less fun game play. However -- it does make sense. If you're aware you're being attacked, then you're not surprised at all. Nothing wrong with that.
"...the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order." (which, is incorrect, because actually all combatants take turns in initiative order)
No, it's correct, but adds to confusion. Only unsurprised combatants get to act. The surprised combatants, however, recover from surprise and recover their reactions at the end of their first turns. This is a very poorly written piece of advice.
"...remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action." (this is a good reminder, because folks often forget that rule)
"In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight." (this is a flat out error that contradicts the written rules).
"In effect" , they do. They don't do anything on their first turn. It arrives, and they skip it. The reason this is confusing is because it might imply that they don't roll initiative and don't recover from being surprised.. which seems to be how you're reading it. And I agree. It just makes it more confusing.
IMO, the RAW on Surprise seems pretty straightforward -- it's only us people who came from previous editions who might struggle with it because it changed. (I know I did at first).
IMO, the RAW on Surprise seems pretty straightforward -- it's only us people who came from previous editions who might struggle with it because it changed. (I know I did at first).
Agreed. I came to 5E after playing only 1E, in which there IS a surprise round. Once I wrapped my head around the mechanics of what occurs in a round in 5E, the RAW for handling surprise are pretty clean and easy to apply.
To add to what a few people have said, stealth is not the only way you could be surprised. If there was a pleasant, harmless conversation and one person suddenly pulled out a weapon, I think I'd be calling for a contested CHA (Deception) vs WIS (Insight) to check for surprise.
I'd also tighten up the phrasing. Something like: If an individual is unaware of any threats at all then they are surprised. If they are aware of one or more threats then they are not surprised.
As for Assassins only getting to do cool stuff if they roll better Initiative than their foes, my answer is "get better at DEX checks." Guidance, bardic inspiration, luck stone, ioun stone, the lucky feat, increasing DEX instead of taking a feat, m/c with rogue or champion fighter, etc. Also, of course, just accept that you can't always have it your way - sometimes you roll unluckily.
As an aside, I wonder that "skip a turn" mean something different in English where some posters come from? Where I live, "skip a turn" is the exact term for what happens when you are surprised. The turn order gets to you, you do nothing, the turn order moves to the next person. For Monopoly, Last Card, Uno, Fluxx, Catan, any game we play - "skip your turn" means "have your turn but don't do anything during it.".
Skipping a turn would mean skipping everything you’d normally do on your turn… including making saving throws and taking damage that would normally occur on your turn. “Hey DM you skipped my turn!” gets said when the DM blows right past you in the initiative order, not when they acknowledge you, have you roll saves to end effects, and then move on to the next.
creature turns are almost never “skipped” in 5E until you’re dead (and thus, no longer a creature at all). Even unconscious characters take turns, to roll Death Saving Throws. Stable unconscious characters I suppose don’t really do anything meaningful on their turn… but the turn IS still there.
Skipping a turn would mean skipping everything you’d normally do on your turn… including making saving throws and taking damage that would normally occur on your turn. “Hey DM you skipped my turn!” gets said when the DM blows right past you in the initiative order, not when they acknowledge you, have you roll saves to end effects, and then move on to the next.
creature turns are almost never “skipped” in 5E until you’re dead (and thus, no longer a creature at all). Even unconscious characters take turns, to roll Death Saving Throws. Stable unconscious characters I suppose don’t really do anything meaningful on their turn… but the turn IS still there.
Well.. to an extent I agree with you. And so the wording is confusing. This is where the "clarifications" don't help at all. It was clearer before they tried to explain it. :)
My biggest problem with surprise is that RAW, every member of the party needs a good stealth roll for any member of the party to benefit from surprise.
The initiative stuff only matters after that.
Not necessarily. The PHB (p.175) allows for group checks, which means if half or more of the party are successful, they all are. Of course, it's up to the DM as to whether to use this mechanic or not. The relevant text:
When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't.
To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails.
Group checks don't come up very often, and they're most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. For example, when adventurers are navigating a swamp, the DM might call for a group Wisdom (Survival) check to see if the characters can avoid the quicksand, sinkholes, and other natural hazards of the environment. If at least half the group succeeds, the successful characters are able to guide their companions out of danger. Otherwise, the group stumbles into one of these hazards.
The problem with this is that very few DMs see stealth as something where one party member can cover for others' mistakes. Unless we're talking about the group as a whole sneaking through an area that would normally trigger random encounters, I'd have to agree.
As for the confusion about surprise, I find a lot of it goes away once you start calling it flatfooted instead.
Right! As I noted (and the canon text itself says), it's the DM's call. I doubt I'd use a group check for stealth myself, especially if the party (as might be expected) has characters with a variety of armor (from none to heavy)...but the case you cite might one such way I'd consider it.
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I am not fond of the Sage Advice on surprise. Especially saying you all roll initiative but the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order and surprised one skips its first turn in a fight.
If activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative - whether or not someone is surprised - then every combattants act in order and no one ever skips a turn. They just don't do anything during it that's all.
One thing though, following this Sage Advice let Assassinate works better ☺
I also think its worth pointing out how completely SAC fails to address Surprise confusion. It just sort of... copy pastes the PHB, but rearranges the sentences and changes it from third-person to talking about "you"?
Near as I can tell, here's the sum of the 'wisdom' that SAC adds to Surprise, instead of just copy-pasting the existing rule:
So.... one helpful reminder (#3) that isn't actually unique to surprise, one piece of bad advice for a DM (#1), and three misstatements/misleading statements (#2, #4, #5).
If SAC were actually a rulebook, this would bother me a lot more. :)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think the new surprise works reasonably well except for edge cases like the one we saw earlier.
To me, the main difference from previous editions is that a high initiative roll allows you to recover your reaction and become "no longer surprised" during the "surprise round" (anachronistic term used only for comparison to previous editions).
Rolling initiative up front seems like a good idea, so you don't bog down play with rolling after the "free surprise round", but I don't know if that was the rationale behind the change. I never had any problem with rolling initiative after the surprise round so.. YMMV
So perhaps the change was motivated by the idea of the character that is "just so fast" that it is hard to really surprise at all. If so, then it does emulate that pretty well.
The only problems with it are the edge cases, and the interaction with features like the Assassin which rely on surprise (which can really suck or be totally awesome based on a single die roll -- and to me that's the main problem with them: inconsistency).
As for the edge case example: I tend to feel that there needs to be some inciting incident that kicks off combat. It could be someone reaching for their weapon. It could be an arrow flying out of the darkness. It might be the sound a bowstring taking tension. 99% of the time that's enough to justify using surprise as written.
It can promote party-splitting tactics, where the stealthy ones go ahead and try to surprise the guards, or whatever. And since many "non stealthy" types are heavily armored melee tanks, this can lead to them arriving too late for the fun.
So I agree, without group-stealth checks, this can lead to less fun game play.
However -- it does make sense. If you're aware you're being attacked, then you're not surprised at all. Nothing wrong with that.
No, it's correct, but adds to confusion. Only unsurprised combatants get to act. The surprised combatants, however, recover from surprise and recover their reactions at the end of their first turns. This is a very poorly written piece of advice.
"In effect" , they do. They don't do anything on their first turn. It arrives, and they skip it. The reason this is confusing is because it might imply that they don't roll initiative and don't recover from being surprised.. which seems to be how you're reading it. And I agree. It just makes it more confusing.
IMO, the RAW on Surprise seems pretty straightforward -- it's only us people who came from previous editions who might struggle with it because it changed. (I know I did at first).
Agreed. I came to 5E after playing only 1E, in which there IS a surprise round. Once I wrapped my head around the mechanics of what occurs in a round in 5E, the RAW for handling surprise are pretty clean and easy to apply.
To add to what a few people have said, stealth is not the only way you could be surprised. If there was a pleasant, harmless conversation and one person suddenly pulled out a weapon, I think I'd be calling for a contested CHA (Deception) vs WIS (Insight) to check for surprise.
I'd also tighten up the phrasing. Something like:
If an individual is unaware of any threats at all then they are surprised. If they are aware of one or more threats then they are not surprised.
As for Assassins only getting to do cool stuff if they roll better Initiative than their foes, my answer is "get better at DEX checks." Guidance, bardic inspiration, luck stone, ioun stone, the lucky feat, increasing DEX instead of taking a feat, m/c with rogue or champion fighter, etc. Also, of course, just accept that you can't always have it your way - sometimes you roll unluckily.
As an aside, I wonder that "skip a turn" mean something different in English where some posters come from? Where I live, "skip a turn" is the exact term for what happens when you are surprised. The turn order gets to you, you do nothing, the turn order moves to the next person. For Monopoly, Last Card, Uno, Fluxx, Catan, any game we play - "skip your turn" means "have your turn but don't do anything during it.".
Skipping a turn would mean skipping everything you’d normally do on your turn… including making saving throws and taking damage that would normally occur on your turn. “Hey DM you skipped my turn!” gets said when the DM blows right past you in the initiative order, not when they acknowledge you, have you roll saves to end effects, and then move on to the next.
creature turns are almost never “skipped” in 5E until you’re dead (and thus, no longer a creature at all). Even unconscious characters take turns, to roll Death Saving Throws. Stable unconscious characters I suppose don’t really do anything meaningful on their turn… but the turn IS still there.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Well.. to an extent I agree with you. And so the wording is confusing. This is where the "clarifications" don't help at all. It was clearer before they tried to explain it. :)
The problem with this is that very few DMs see stealth as something where one party member can cover for others' mistakes. Unless we're talking about the group as a whole sneaking through an area that would normally trigger random encounters, I'd have to agree.
As for the confusion about surprise, I find a lot of it goes away once you start calling it flatfooted instead.
Right! As I noted (and the canon text itself says), it's the DM's call. I doubt I'd use a group check for stealth myself, especially if the party (as might be expected) has characters with a variety of armor (from none to heavy)...but the case you cite might one such way I'd consider it.