I could really use some feedback/help if I've got the right idea about running a encounter with monsters that have shadow stealth. There are a load of cool monsters with shadow stealth ie ShadowShadowghastBoneclawShadow Horror
Shadow stealth - While in dim light or darkness, the "monster" can take the Hide action as a bonus action.
Example Encounter run - Environment - Dark Room - 2 Shadows
Our Hero Bob enters the Dark room (darkness) Bob has Dark vision so can see in darkness as if it were (dim light) 2 shadows are hiding in the room, DM secretly roll's Shadows stealth (+6 in dim light or darkness) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.))
Bob doesn't notice the Shadows ie surprise Combat starts Shadows attack Bob is surprised ini order established... Bob and then Shadows round 1) Bob can't do anything because surprise, The shadows attack with advantage - both then take the bonus action hide (Dexterity (Stealth) +6 dim light) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (lightly obscured area...) both succeed round 2) Bob attacks a shadow with disadvantage on the attack roll due to attacking an unseen target... and misses, Both shadows attack with advantage as Bob can't see them - Both shadows then take the bonus action hide...
So do you think I have the right idea on this rules wise and how monsters with shadow stealth would best use the skill in combat? or am I messing something up? thanks for any replies, input, thoughts
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I could really use some feedback/help if I've got the right idea about running a encounter with monsters that have shadow stealth. There are a load of cool monsters with shadow stealth ie ShadowShadowghastBoneclawShadow Horror
Shadow stealth - While in dim light or darkness, the "monster" can take the Hide action as a bonus action.
Example Encounter run - Environment - Dark Room - 2 Shadows
Our Hero Bob enters the Dark room (darkness) Bob has Dark vision so can see in darkness as if it were (dim light) 2 shadows are hiding in the room, DM secretly roll's Shadows stealth (+6 in dim light or darkness) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.))
Bob doesn't notice the Shadows ie surprise Combat starts Shadows attack Bob is surprised ini order established... Bob and then Shadows round 1) Bob can't do anything because surprise, The shadows attack with advantage - both then take the bonus action hide (Dexterity (Stealth) +6 dim light) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (lightly obscured area...) both succeed round 2) Bob attacks a shadow with disadvantage on the attack roll due to attacking an unseen target... and misses, Both shadows attack with advantage as Bob can't see them - Both shadows then take the bonus action hide...
So do you think I have the right idea on this rules wise and how monsters with shadow stealth would best use the skill in combat? or am I messing something up? thanks for any replies, input, thoughts
Yes you have it right and if the shadows moves after hiding (no OA), Bob will have to correctly guess a shadow's space/square to even be able to hit it!
It's a fun guerillera tactic that i've also had with a goblin Gloom Stalker Ranger.
Once the monsters attacks the party in melee, individuals with darkvision will clearly see the monsters standing right next to them. The monsters will no longer meet the requirements for hiding. The gloomstalker is different as it is invisible in your scenario.
Lots of good and in depth articles on the web for this topic. You will also want to note when you make an attack, hit or miss, you give away your position. Many articles on this topic therefore point out that the advantage is only on the 1st attack from an individual not subsequent attacks when they have more than one.
Once the monsters attacks the party in melee, individuals with darkvision will clearly see the monsters standing right next to them. The monsters will no longer meet the requirements for hiding.
Yes it will be able, just like it can hide from those with normal vision inside dim light when it can normally be seen. While in dim light or Darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action and Darkvision see in Darkness as if it was dim light. Basically similar to Skulker feat user and Wood Elf that can hide while ligltly obscured by dim light of dusk even though they're seen
@JeremyECrawford A shadow demon in D&D can use its Shadow Stealth trait while in dim light or darkness—taking the Hide action as a bonus action—regardless of others' senses. That said, the trait doesn't guarantee success at hiding. Another creatures' perceptiveness might foil the attempt.
Yes it will be able, just like it can hide from those with normal vision inside dim light when it can normally be seen. While in dim light or Darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action and Darkvision see in Darkness as if it was dim light. Basically similar to Skulker feat user and Wood Elf that can hide while ligltly obscured by dim light of dusk even though they're seen
If that was their intention then it would have been really good if they had included some language, like in Skulker or Mask of the Wild, that allows for the trait to bypass the normal rules for hiding. Shadow Stealth as written just gives an optional use of their Bonus Action in the same way as Cunning Action does.
We are interpreting Shadow Stealth feature differently. "Shadow Stealth: While in dim light or Darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a Bonus Action. Its Stealth bonus is also improved to +6."
I am reading it to mean that the benefit of shadow stealth is that the creature can hide as a bonus action rather than a full action. However, unlike the skulker feat, it does not directly mention changing the hiding requirements so it can't hide in plain sight of someone with darkvision. JC's answer is really unclear but I read it to support my interpretation. Ultimately, it likely is just a DM judgement call.
Thank you so very much RaiGuyBondalek, Plaguescarred, Thezzaruz and RaiGuyBondalek for all your replies, I'm chuffed that the question garnered some discussion so it wasn't blindingly obvious to everyone and was at least shall we say lightly obscured Particular thanks to Plaguescarred for discussing the point and finding that Dev tweet
Bob really should have brought a candle with him...
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Yes it will be able, just like it can hide from those with normal vision inside dim light when it can normally be seen. While in dim light or Darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action and Darkvision see in Darkness as if it was dim light. Basically similar to Skulker feat user and Wood Elf that can hide while ligltly obscured by dim light of dusk even though they're seen
If that was their intention then it would have been really good if they had included some language, like in Skulker or Mask of the Wild, that allows for the trait to bypass the normal rules for hiding. Shadow Stealth as written just gives an optional use of their Bonus Action in the same way as Cunning Action does.
No one can normally hide in Dim light, so the ability doesn't just let you hide as a bonus action, it let you hide while still visible, just like the Wood Elf, Halfling or Skulker feat user.
No one can normally hide in Dim light, so the ability doesn't just let you hide as a bonus action, it let you hide while still visible, just like the Wood Elf, Halfling or Skulker feat user.
Anyone can hide in dim light, you just can't do it while being observed. And I see nothing in the wording of Shadow Stealth changes that.
Skulker (You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding) and Wood Elf (You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena) have explicit text that does change it.
Shadow Stealth instead has wording (While in dim light or darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action) that is very similar to a Rogues Cunning Action (You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action).
I just don't see how having the option to take the Hide action as a Bonus Action in certain situation would also automatically allow you to ignore the restrictions of the Hide action. And if that's what the designers want for Shadows what does that mean for Rogues (and others)???
No one can normally hide in Dim light, so the ability doesn't just let you hide as a bonus action, it let you hide while still visible, just like the Wood Elf, Halfling or Skulker feat user.
Anyone can hide in dim light, you just can't do it while being observed. And I see nothing in the wording of Shadow Stealth changes that.
Provide some text based support for this claim?
Skulker (You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding) and Wood Elf (You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena) have explicit text that does change it.
They do, because dim light is lightly obscured. Those abilities are granting the ability to hid while lightly obscured, ie dim light.
Shadow Stealth instead has wording (While in dim light or darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action) that is very similar to a Rogues Cunning Action (You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action).
I just don't see how having the option to take the Hide action as a Bonus Action in certain situation would also automatically allow you to ignore the restrictions of the Hide action. And if that's what the designers want for Shadows what does that mean for Rogues (and others)???
The ability is granting them increased ability to hide idk what is not understandable about this ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Example Encounter run - Environment - Dark Room - 2 Shadows
Our Hero Bob enters the Dark room (darkness) Bob has Dark vision so can see in darkness as if it were (dim light) 2 shadows are hiding in the room, DM secretly roll's Shadows stealth (+6 in dim light or darkness) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.))
Bob doesn't notice the Shadows ie surprise Combat starts Shadows attack Bob is surprised ini order established... Bob and then Shadows round 1) Bob can't do anything because surprise, The shadows attack with advantage - both then take the bonus action hide (Dexterity (Stealth) +6 dim light) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (lightly obscured area...) both succeed round 2) Bob attacks a shadow with disadvantage on the attack roll due to attacking an unseen target... and misses, Both shadows attack with advantage as Bob can't see them - Both shadows then take the bonus action hide...
Just be aware that this encounter will be way, way more difficult than the CR count implies. If a character is strength-based, shadows can very quickly render them unable to fight back. If the character is not strength-based, it's likely to outright die.
Maybe you want to punish Bob for not preparing, but you're the one that will need to reboot the campaign. Bob just gets to make a new character. I'm not sure that's a win for you.
Wtf? Of course you can hide in dim light, you can hide in bright light too ffs. You just cannot (normally) do it while you are observed.
See, you're playing a bit of a rhetorical game here now. Look. Dim Light is not... by itself, sufficiently obscured for most creatures to hide in. If there are other compounding obscurement that might create a better hiding location? Then of course dim light can be part of that balanced breakfast. But it isn't breakfast all on its own.
Unless you have one of those other abilities. With Skulker or Wood Elf traits, dim light is all the breakfast you need for a good hiding time.
The ability is granting them increased ability to hide idk what is not understandable about this ability.
My issue is that nothing in the text for Shadow Stealth says they get an "increased ability".
Other than the text of the ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Example Encounter run - Environment - Dark Room - 2 Shadows
Our Hero Bob enters the Dark room (darkness)...
Just be aware that this encounter will be way, way more difficult than the CR count implies. If a character is strength-based, shadows can very quickly render them unable to fight back. If the character is not strength-based, it's likely to outright die.
Maybe you want to punish Bob for not preparing, but you're the one that will need to reboot the campaign. Bob just gets to make a new character. I'm not sure that's a win for you.
Thank you for your reply and concern scatterbraind let me allay your fears, I'm not out to punish our hero Bob or any of my players, I'm very much a DM who enjoys the game together with my players and certainly not a vindictive one. A win for me would be a encounter were my players end up saying "That was intense!" currently we are in the Ravenloft domain of dread - The House of Lament so shadowy horrors just have to be on the menu and I really want to get the feel and rules for them right.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
No one can normally hide in Dim light, so the ability doesn't just let you hide as a bonus action, it let you hide while still visible, just like the Wood Elf, Halfling or Skulker feat user.
Anyone can hide in dim light, you just can't do it while being observed.
This Sage Advice clarify that you cannot and that things like the Halfling and Wood Elf are capable of hiding in situations when most other creatures can’t. If anyone could hide when lightly obscured by dim light, this official ruling wouldn't say that, nor would Skulker feat.
Do the lightfoot halfling and wood elf hiding racial traits allow them to hide while observed? The lightfoot halfling and wood elf traits—Naturally Stealthy and Mask of the Wild—do allow members of those subraces to try to hide in their special circumstances even when observers are nearby. Normally, you can’t hide from someone if you’re in full view. A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes—even eyes staring right at the elf! Both subraces are capable of hiding in situations when most other creatures can’t, but neither subrace’s hiding attempt is assured of success; a Dexterity (Stealth) check is required as normal, and an observant foe might later spot a hidden halfling or elf: “I see you behind that guard, you tricksy halfling!
@JeremyECrawford A shadow demon in D&D can use its Shadow Stealth trait while in dim light or darkness—taking the Hide action as a bonus action—regardless of others' senses. That said, the trait doesn't guarantee success at hiding. Another creatures' perceptiveness might foil the attempt.
Assume the shadow demon is fighting someone in darkness that has devil sight or true sight. I read JCs comment to mean "regardless of others' senses" to mean that the shadow demon can still try to hide behind cover, like a stalagmite, as a bonus action rather than a full action. Are you interpreting it to mean that shadow stealth trumps devil sight and true sight?
Thank you for the reply RaiGuyBondalek, Plaguescarred was quoting from JeremyECrawford's twitter feed if you were addressing him you would have to do it directly on his twitter feed
I Interpret "regardless of others' senses" to mean other creatures mode of vision does not alter the physical environment ie the presence of darkness or dim light hence my little jest which was not completely without meaning "Bob really should have brought a candle with him... "
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
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I could really use some feedback/help if I've got the right idea about running a encounter with monsters that have shadow stealth.
There are a load of cool monsters with shadow stealth ie Shadow Shadowghast Boneclaw Shadow Horror
Shadow stealth - While in dim light or darkness, the "monster" can take the Hide action as a bonus action.
Example Encounter run - Environment - Dark Room - 2 Shadows
Our Hero Bob enters the Dark room (darkness) Bob has Dark vision so can see in darkness as if it were (dim light)
2 shadows are hiding in the room, DM secretly roll's Shadows stealth (+6 in dim light or darkness) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.))
Bob doesn't notice the Shadows ie surprise
Combat starts Shadows attack Bob is surprised ini order established... Bob and then Shadows
round 1) Bob can't do anything because surprise, The shadows attack with advantage - both then take the bonus action hide (Dexterity (Stealth) +6 dim light) against Bob's (passive perception - 5 (lightly obscured area...) both succeed
round 2) Bob attacks a shadow with disadvantage on the attack roll due to attacking an unseen target... and misses, Both shadows attack with advantage as Bob can't see them - Both shadows then take the bonus action hide...
So do you think I have the right idea on this rules wise and how monsters with shadow stealth would best use the skill in combat? or am I messing something up?
thanks for any replies, input, thoughts
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
There are some good articles on the web to help you understand hiding such as http://dmsworkshop.com/2019/02/08/dnd-hiding-in-combat/
In round 2 the Shadows are no longer unseen by the party with darkvision and the creatures in battle cannot hide.
Yes you have it right and if the shadows moves after hiding (no OA), Bob will have to correctly guess a shadow's space/square to even be able to hit it!
It's a fun guerillera tactic that i've also had with a goblin Gloom Stalker Ranger.
This is untrue no rules prevent a creature from hiding in combat.
Once the monsters attacks the party in melee, individuals with darkvision will clearly see the monsters standing right next to them. The monsters will no longer meet the requirements for hiding. The gloomstalker is different as it is invisible in your scenario.
Lots of good and in depth articles on the web for this topic. You will also want to note when you make an attack, hit or miss, you give away your position. Many articles on this topic therefore point out that the advantage is only on the 1st attack from an individual not subsequent attacks when they have more than one.
Yes it will be able, just like it can hide from those with normal vision inside dim light when it can normally be seen. While in dim light or Darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action and Darkvision see in Darkness as if it was dim light. Basically similar to Skulker feat user and Wood Elf that can hide while ligltly obscured by dim light of dusk even though they're seen
It was also confirmed by a Dev on twitter https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1253722342120763393?s=20
If that was their intention then it would have been really good if they had included some language, like in Skulker or Mask of the Wild, that allows for the trait to bypass the normal rules for hiding. Shadow Stealth as written just gives an optional use of their Bonus Action in the same way as Cunning Action does.
We are interpreting Shadow Stealth feature differently. "Shadow Stealth: While in dim light or Darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a Bonus Action. Its Stealth bonus is also improved to +6."
I am reading it to mean that the benefit of shadow stealth is that the creature can hide as a bonus action rather than a full action. However, unlike the skulker feat, it does not directly mention changing the hiding requirements so it can't hide in plain sight of someone with darkvision. JC's answer is really unclear but I read it to support my interpretation. Ultimately, it likely is just a DM judgement call.
Thank you so very much RaiGuyBondalek, Plaguescarred, Thezzaruz and RaiGuyBondalek for all your replies, I'm chuffed that the question garnered some discussion so it wasn't blindingly obvious to everyone and was at least shall we say lightly obscured
Particular thanks to Plaguescarred for discussing the point and finding that Dev tweet
Bob really should have brought a candle with him...
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
No one can normally hide in Dim light, so the ability doesn't just let you hide as a bonus action, it let you hide while still visible, just like the Wood Elf, Halfling or Skulker feat user.
Anyone can hide in dim light, you just can't do it while being observed. And I see nothing in the wording of Shadow Stealth changes that.
Skulker (You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding) and Wood Elf (You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena) have explicit text that does change it.
Shadow Stealth instead has wording (While in dim light or darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action) that is very similar to a Rogues Cunning Action (You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action).
I just don't see how having the option to take the Hide action as a Bonus Action in certain situation would also automatically allow you to ignore the restrictions of the Hide action. And if that's what the designers want for Shadows what does that mean for Rogues (and others)???
Provide some text based support for this claim?
They do, because dim light is lightly obscured. Those abilities are granting the ability to hid while lightly obscured, ie dim light.
The ability is granting them increased ability to hide idk what is not understandable about this ability.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Wtf? Of course you can hide in dim light, you can hide in bright light too ffs. You just cannot (normally) do it while you are observed.
Which is exactly what I said.
My issue is that nothing in the text for Shadow Stealth says they get an "increased ability".
Just be aware that this encounter will be way, way more difficult than the CR count implies. If a character is strength-based, shadows can very quickly render them unable to fight back. If the character is not strength-based, it's likely to outright die.
Maybe you want to punish Bob for not preparing, but you're the one that will need to reboot the campaign. Bob just gets to make a new character. I'm not sure that's a win for you.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
See, you're playing a bit of a rhetorical game here now. Look. Dim Light is not... by itself, sufficiently obscured for most creatures to hide in. If there are other compounding obscurement that might create a better hiding location? Then of course dim light can be part of that balanced breakfast. But it isn't breakfast all on its own.
Unless you have one of those other abilities. With Skulker or Wood Elf traits, dim light is all the breakfast you need for a good hiding time.
Other than the text of the ability.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Thank you for your reply and concern scatterbraind let me allay your fears, I'm not out to punish our hero Bob or any of my players, I'm very much a DM who enjoys the game together with my players and certainly not a vindictive one. A win for me would be a encounter were my players end up saying "That was intense!" currently we are in the Ravenloft domain of dread - The House of Lament so shadowy horrors just have to be on the menu and I really want to get the feel and rules for them right.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
This Sage Advice clarify that you cannot and that things like the Halfling and Wood Elf are capable of hiding in situations when most other creatures can’t. If anyone could hide when lightly obscured by dim light, this official ruling wouldn't say that, nor would Skulker feat.
@JeremyECrawford A shadow demon in D&D can use its Shadow Stealth trait while in dim light or darkness—taking the Hide action as a bonus action—regardless of others' senses. That said, the trait doesn't guarantee success at hiding. Another creatures' perceptiveness might foil the attempt.
Assume the shadow demon is fighting someone in darkness that has devil sight or true sight. I read JCs comment to mean "regardless of others' senses" to mean that the shadow demon can still try to hide behind cover, like a stalagmite, as a bonus action rather than a full action. Are you interpreting it to mean that shadow stealth trumps devil sight and true sight?
Thank you for the reply RaiGuyBondalek, Plaguescarred was quoting from JeremyECrawford's twitter feed if you were addressing him you would have to do it directly on his twitter feed
I Interpret "regardless of others' senses" to mean other creatures mode of vision does not alter the physical environment ie the presence of darkness or dim light hence my little jest which was not completely without meaning "Bob really should have brought a candle with him... "
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again