For what it's worth, the interaction between SB and advantage is pretty well settled by this point. SB doesn't have any wording concerning advantage or disadvantage because it doesn't care about the process that leads to the result--only the result itself.
The process itself is exactly the same, SB, when cast, does not change the process. If the target has an AC of 15 before you cast SB he still has a 15, if he cast Shield before SB he still has a 20 when you cast SB. If the target has partial cover there is a -2 applied to the roll. If it is an ability check against a passive ability and the opponent is poisoned and has disadvantage then -5 to the challenger still applies after you cast SB.
SB does not change any of this. Why on earth would the other die in advantage or disadvantage all of a sudden not matter after you cast SB when the condition that caused advantage/disadvantage has not changed?
Let's say the targeted of the attack is paralyzed. Is he still paralyzed after you cast Silvery Barbs? Yes he is still paralyzed so attack rolls against him still have advantage. Is the reroll an attack roll? Yes it is an attack roll. How do you resolve an attack roll with advantage - you take the higher of the 2 dice, in this case that is the higher of the - 1. (lower of the original high roll and the silvery barbs roll) and 2. the other die rolled.
Plain as day and clear in the rules! No one yet has offered any part of any rules saying or suggesting it is any different when silvery barbs is cast.
To be honest, everything mentioned thus far in the discussion on advantage/disadvantage rests on this concept of a "discarded die". There is no "discared die" in RAW, nothing tells you to discard a dice with advantage/disadvantage once you determine the result. That other die is still there after you cast Silvery Barbs and as such still has a bearing on the outcome, just like everything else that modifies the roll.
The PHB does it say the lower dice is "discarded". Where do you get that "you must discard the lower dice"?
People keep using that term "discarded" in the thread, but that is not RAW. The rules say you "use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage". They never say to throw out or discard the lower roll and certainly don't use "must" as a qualifier for that.
Sure, if you roll below the threshold on both you fail and you don't trigger the spell. If you did not cast the spell then you don't replace any dice. It does not even matter if it is in your spell book, it is irrelevant to the discussion.
The method for resolving success/failure is the same whether you cast SB or not. The only difference is one dice can potentially change.
When you roll advantage what do you, then, do with the dice? Roll both and take both? No. You roll both, select the one the rules tell you to select, and discard the other. Are you being intentionally pedantic?
To cast Silvery Barbs the roll had to have succeeded. If you, with Disadvantage, rolled a 13 and a 15 with the 13 succeeding then the 13 is the result that caused the success. Silvery Barbs is then cast forcing a reroll of the die that triggered the success, in this case the 13. You roll a new D20 and compare the result to the 13, taking the lower of the two dice.
The self-same scenario with Advantage would play out similarly. You rolled a 13 and a 15 with the 15 succeeding so 15 is the result that caused the success. Silvery Barbs is then cast forcing a reroll of the die that triggered the success, in this case the 15. You roll a new D20 and compare the result to the 15, taking the lower of the two dice.
It's pretty straightforward, I don't understand all of this debate.
The PHB does it say the lower dice is "discarded". Where do you get that "you must discard the lower dice"?
People keep using that term "discarded" in the thread, but that is not RAW. The rules say you "use the higher of the two rolls if you have advantage". They never say to throw out or discard the lower roll and certainly don't use "must" as a qualifier for that.
Sure, if you roll below the threshold on both you fail and you don't trigger the spell. If you did not cast the spell then you don't replace any dice. It does not even matter if it is in your spell book, it is irrelevant to the discussion.
The method for resolving success/failure is the same whether you cast SB or not. The only difference is one dice can potentially change.
When you roll advantage what do you, then, do with the dice? Roll both and take both? No. You roll both, select the one the rules tell you to select, and discard the other. Are you being intentionally pedantic?
To cast Silvery Barbs the roll had to have succeeded. If you, with Disadvantage, rolled a 13 and a 15 with the 13 succeeding then the 13 is the result that caused the success. Silvery Barbs is then cast forcing a reroll of the die that triggered the success, in this case the 13. You roll a new D20 and compare the result to the 13, taking the lower of the two dice.
The self-same scenario with Advantage would play out similarly. You rolled a 13 and a 15 with the 15 succeeding so 15 is the result that caused the success. Silvery Barbs is then cast forcing a reroll of the die that triggered the success, in this case the 15. You roll a new D20 and compare the result to the 15, taking the lower of the two dice.
It's pretty straightforward, I don't understand all of this debate.
Nicely put and how I would rule it, and supported by RAW as far as I can tell.
There are people who actively suspend their common sense to try to find holes in the rules. In this case it's pretty clear what the spell does. No need to twist the wording looking for who knows what.
When you roll advantage what do you, then, do with the dice? Roll both and take both? No. You roll both, select the one the rules tell you to select, and discard the other. Are you being intentionally pedantic?
Yes you take both dice and you use the higher dice to determine the result. It is written right there in the rules.
You do not discard any dice. The lower dice is still part of the roll even after the result is determined, just like the attack bonus, any adjustment for cover or anything else that modifies the roll.
You do not discard any of that. I am not being intentionally pedantic, are you intentionally ignoring what the rules actually say about rerolling dice with advantage or disadvantage?
To cast Silvery Barbs the roll had to have succeeded. If you, with Disadvantage, rolled a 13 and a 15 with the 13 succeeding then the 13 is the result that caused the success. Silvery Barbs is then cast forcing a reroll of the die that triggered the success, in this case the 13. You roll a new D20 and compare the result to the 13, taking the lower of the two dice.
Sure the roll succeeded the first time, then you cast the spell which changes that. It is just like when you cast shield it can change it from a hit to a miss. You reevaluate success vs failure in the normal fashion - in this case using the specific rule for resolving a reroll with advantage or disadvantage.
With disadvantage, if you roll and get a 13 and a 15 you "use" the lowest dice - 13.
If that is enough to succeed then someone can cast Silvery Barbs.
1. If he rolls higher than a 13 (let's say he rolls a 20) then the 13 is not replaced. You again compare 13 and 15 like the rules say to and "use" the lowest which is a 13. The result still succeeds
2. If he rolls lower than a 13, say he rolls a 4. You compare 4 and 15 "use" the lowest, which is a 4. If a 4 is lower than what is needed to succeed it is a failure.
If you roll with advantage you do the exact same thing except use the higher roll. With advantage, if you roll and get a 13 and a 15 you "use" the highest dice - 15.
If that is enough to succeed then someone casts Silvery Barbs and you reroll the 15.
1. If he rolls higher than a 15 (let's say he rolls a 20) then the 15 is not replaced. You again compare 13 and 15 like the rules say to and "use" the highest which is a 15. The result still succeed.
2. If he rolls lower than a 15, say he rolls a 4. You compare 4 and 13 "use" the highest, which is a 13. If a 13 is lower than what is needed to succeed it is a failure, if it is higher it is a success.
There are people who actively suspend their common sense to try to find holes in the rules. In this case it's pretty clear what the spell does. No need to twist the wording looking for who knows what.
Those searching for "holes" and not using common sense are the people trying to argue that we should use the casting time of the spell to determine how to resolve what is a straightforward reroll with advantage.
There is no need to twist any wording, page 173 of the PHB tells you exactly how to do this.
When you roll advantage what do you, then, do with the dice? Roll both and take both? No. You roll both, select the one the rules tell you to select, and discard the other. Are you being intentionally pedantic?
Yes you take both dice and you use the higher dice to determine the result. It is written right there in the rules.
You do not discard any dice. The lower dice is still part of the roll even after the result is determined, just like the attack bonus, any adjustment for cover or anything else that modifies the roll.
You do not discard any of that. I am not being intentionally pedantic, are you intentionally ignoring what the rules actually say about rerolling dice with advantage or disadvantage?
If you roll two dice, pick one, and the other one is ignored, not to be given later consideration, then it is fair to say that you have discarded the unused die. That is the English language. You are arguing minutiae about specific language usage when the usage is synonymous with the process whilst following the rules. It's akin to those who argue they are "travelling" not "driving".
When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. For example, if a halfling has advantage or disadvantage on an ability check and rolls a 1 and a 13, the halfling could use the Lucky trait to reroll the 1.
From the rule book.
Silvery Barbs applies to the die that triggered the success and, since specific overrules general, the text after the highlighted doesn't apply. In this case "can" is "must" because it is not an optional reroll, it's a forced reroll.
If you roll two dice, pick one, and the other one is ignored, not to be given later consideration, then it is fair to say that you have discarded the unused die. That is the English language. You are arguing minutiae about specific language usage when the usage is synonymous with the process whilst following the rules. It's akin to those who argue they are "travelling" not "driving".
Silvery Barbs applies to the die that triggered the success and, since specific overrules general, the text after the highlighted doesn't apply. In this case "can" is "must" because it is not an optional reroll, it's a forced reroll.
You don't "pick" a die, with advantage you "use the higher die". That is what the rulebook actually says. There is no need for mental gymnastics here, and no need to fumble around about language, the rules are simple. The rules also say on a reroll with advantage or disadvantage you replace one dice. You have to add words that are not in the rules to support how you want the spell to work. Those words would be there if they were RAW or for that matter RAI.
WRT your traveling anology; Your argument is like saying if you travel to the movies in Dad's car, then Mom's car is discarded and no longer exists for that trip because you used Dad's car for this trip. So if Dad starts to back out of the driveway and he get's a flat tire, you can't simply travel to the movies in Mom's car instead because you chose Dad's car and therefore Mom's car can no longer be used. Mom's car is ignored henceforth with respect to the journey to the movies regardless of any conditions that could make it so you can't use Dad's car.
Specific does overule general, but Silvery Barbs is not what is specific in this case, it is general! The text in Sivery Barbs is how you GENERALLY apply the Silvery barbs reroll. The text on page 173 it is what is specific; it is SPECIFICALLY how you execute a reroll with advantage or disadvantage. Rerolling with advantage or disadvantage is not the GENERAL way of rerolling, it is not the GENERAL way Silvery Barbs is used. It is the SPECIFIC way we are discussing in this thread.
Silvery Barbs does apply to the die that triggered the success, and if the reroll is lower it replaces that die and only that die in accordance with the SPECIFIC rules for doing a reroll with advantage.
Bottom Line: When you make a reroll with advantage or disadvantage you discard 1 die, not 2. Clear as day and unambiguous in the PHB. Nothing in the Silvery Barbs spell changes that, to include the text in the casting time.
If you roll two dice, pick one, and the other one is ignored, not to be given later consideration, then it is fair to say that you have discarded the unused die. That is the English language. You are arguing minutiae about specific language usage when the usage is synonymous with the process whilst following the rules. It's akin to those who argue they are "travelling" not "driving".
Silvery Barbs applies to the die that triggered the success and, since specific overrules general, the text after the highlighted doesn't apply. In this case "can" is "must" because it is not an optional reroll, it's a forced reroll.
You don't "pick" a die, with advantage you "use the higher die". That is what the rulebook actually says. There is no need for mental gymnastics here, and no need to fumble around about language, the rules are simple. The rules also say on a reroll with advantage or disadvantage you replace one dice. You have to add words that are not in the rules to support how you want the spell to work. Those words would be there if they were RAW or for that matter RAI.
WRT your traveling anology; Your argument is like saying if you travel to the movies in Dad's car, then Mom's car is discarded and no longer exists for that trip because you used Dad's car for this trip. So if Dad starts to back out of the driveway and he get's a flat tire, you can't simply travel to the movies in Mom's car instead because you chose Dad's car and therefore Mom's car can no longer be used. Mom's car is ignored henceforth with respect to the journey to the movies regardless of any conditions that could make it so you can't use Dad's car.
Specific does overule general, but Silvery Barbs is not what is specific in this case, it is general! The text in Sivery Barbs is how you GENERALLY apply the Silvery barbs reroll. The text on page 173 it is what is specific; it is SPECIFICALLY how you execute a reroll with advantage or disadvantage. Rerolling with advantage or disadvantage is not the GENERAL way of rerolling, it is not the GENERAL way Silvery Barbs is used. It is the SPECIFIC way we are discussing in this thread.
Silvery Barbs does apply to the die that triggered the success, and if the reroll is lower it replaces that die and only that die in accordance with the SPECIFIC rules for doing a reroll with advantage.
Bottom Line: When you make a reroll with advantage or disadvantage you discard 1 die, not 2. Clear as day and unambiguous in the PHB. Nothing in the Silvery Barbs spell changes that, to include the text in the casting time.
You are literally arguing semantics. The highest die "is picked". This is why I said you're being pedantic.
Your adaptation of my analogy makes no sense as I was referring only to how you are arguing synonymous language. Pick, choose, select, use. Synonyms. Ignore, not used, not picked, discard. Also synonyms. When referring to the "used" die you use the former. When referring to the "not used" die you use the latter, all are synonymous with each other and carry the same meaning.
What are you arguing then? If you understand that "Silvery Barbs does apply to the die that triggered the success, and if the reroll is lower it replaces that die and only that die in accordance with the SPECIFIC rules for doing a reroll with advantage." what is the point you're trying to make? Because clearly we agree on how the spell interacts with Advantage/Disadvantage. The spell replaces only the single die that triggered the success and, therefore, the Silvery Barbs reroll is not a reroll of the full, two-dice Advantage/Disadvantage roll (ie. you do not reroll BOTH dice from Advantage/Disadvantage, only the one that was "used", as you insist on putting it.)
There are people who actively suspend their common sense to try to find holes in the rules. In this case it's pretty clear what the spell does. No need to twist the wording looking for who knows what.
Those searching for "holes" and not using common sense are the people trying to argue that we should use the casting time of the spell to determine how to resolve what is a straightforward reroll with advantage.
There is no need to twist any wording, page 173 of the PHB tells you exactly how to do this.
I don't know what you are looking for. However, the spell works like this: The roll is made (it does not matter whether or not it is advantage / disadvantage). It is a success? No. You cannot launch SB. Yes. As a reaction, you can cast SB to force your opponent to take the successful die (the other one, if rolled two for whatever reason, it doesn't matter anymore. Even if it was also a success), and roll it again. You can then give advantage to a creature you see.
There is no confusion possible without actively trying to play dumb.
There are people who actively suspend their common sense to try to find holes in the rules. In this case it's pretty clear what the spell does. No need to twist the wording looking for who knows what.
Those searching for "holes" and not using common sense are the people trying to argue that we should use the casting time of the spell to determine how to resolve what is a straightforward reroll with advantage.
There is no need to twist any wording, page 173 of the PHB tells you exactly how to do this.
I don't know what you are looking for. However, the spell works like this: The roll is made (it does not matter whether or not it is advantage / disadvantage). It is a success? No. You cannot launch SB. Yes. As a reaction, you can cast SB to force your opponent to take the successful die (the other one, if rolled two for whatever reason, it doesn't matter anymore. Even if it was also a success), and roll it again. You can then give advantage to a creature you see.
There is no confusion possible without actively trying to play dumb.
Yes absolutely he rolls the die again, if it is lower he must take the lower dice. With advantage or disadvantage you roll two dice, Silvery Barbs that one dice and you use both of them to determine success or failure. No confusion at all - PHB page 173-Clear as day.
No one on this entire thread has provided any written rule from any published source that says or suggests you execute a reroll differently becauase of Silvery Barbs.
People have presented a whole bunch theary on why it it "can't" be done RAW, to include "it is already a success", you have to "discard a die" and other things that are not in the rules
You are literally arguing semantics. The highest die "is picked". This is why I said you're being pedantic.
I am using the verbiage that is actually in the rules. Nothing more, nothing less. You are changing those words to mean other things and support your theory because you can't support it using any written rules.
Your adaptation of my analogy makes no sense as I was referring only to how you are arguing synonymous language. Pick, choose, select, use. Synonyms. Ignore, not used, not picked, discard. Also synonyms. When referring to the "used" die you use the former. When referring to the "not used" die you use the latter, all are synonymous with each other and carry the same meaning.
Yes but according to the rules the die that is "not used" at first to determine success is "used" after the reroll if it is higher (advantage) or lower (disadvantage) than the other.
That is the whole problem. You are trying to invent a reason why you should not use the other dice (if it is higher), like it says to do in the rules, so you are inventing words like "ignore" or "discard" as if it no longer exists such that it can no longer be used, as if it is not part of the attack roll, ability check or saving throw, when it clearly is.
What are you arguing then? If you understand that "Silvery Barbs does apply to the die that triggered the success, and if the reroll is lower it replaces that die and only that die in accordance with the SPECIFIC rules for doing a reroll with advantage." what is the point you're trying to make?
Because with advantage or disadvantage you use the higher or lower of the two dice, not necessarily the one die which is replaced. PHB page 173.
The spell replaces only the single die that triggered the success and, therefore, the Silvery Barbs reroll is not a reroll of the full, two-dice Advantage/Disadvantage roll (ie. you do not reroll BOTH dice from Advantage/Disadvantage, only the one that was "used", as you insist on putting it.)
It is a reroll. It even says right in the spell description it is a reroll. On a reroll with advantage you roll 1 die again, replace that one die and take the higher or lower of the pair - PHB page 173
You never replace both dice with a single reroll and that is exactly you are doing here. Except you are trying to claim that you are only replacing one because the other has already been "discarded" or "ignored" or "not picked" or something else that is not present anywhere in the rules. There is nothing in the spell itself that supports that interpretation.
Any condition which caused advantage or disadvantage when the first roll was made still applies when the Silvery Barbs reroll is made. The target still has advantage from whatever gave him advantage initially. That did not go away because of the Silvery Barbs casting time.
The general rules on Advantage/Disadvantage - to quote again for those that failed to see it before.
When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can reroll or replace only one of the dice. You choose which one. For example, if a halfling has advantage or disadvantage on an ability check and rolls a 1 and a 13, the halfling could use the Lucky trait to reroll the 1.
Silvery barbs spell says:
The triggering creature must rerollthe d20 and use the lower roll.
For reference, the Lucky trait for halflings says:
When you roll a 1 on thed20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you can rerollthe die and must use the new roll.
There are people who actively suspend their common sense to try to find holes in the rules. In this case it's pretty clear what the spell does. No need to twist the wording looking for who knows what.
Those searching for "holes" and not using common sense are the people trying to argue that we should use the casting time of the spell to determine how to resolve what is a straightforward reroll with advantage.
There is no need to twist any wording, page 173 of the PHB tells you exactly how to do this.
I don't know what you are looking for. However, the spell works like this: The roll is made (it does not matter whether or not it is advantage / disadvantage). It is a success? No. You cannot launch SB. Yes. As a reaction, you can cast SB to force your opponent to take the successful die (the other one, if rolled two for whatever reason, it doesn't matter anymore. Even if it was also a success), and roll it again. You can then give advantage to a creature you see.
There is no confusion possible without actively trying to play dumb.
Yes absolutely he rolls the die again, if it is lower he must take the lower dice. With advantage or disadvantage you roll two dice, Silvery Barbs that one dice and you use both of them to determine success or failure. No confusion at all - PHB page 173-Clear as day.
No one on this entire thread has provided any written rule from any published source that says or suggests you execute a reroll differently becauase of Silvery Barbs.
People have presented a whole bunch theary on why it it "can't" be done RAW, to include "it is already a success", you have to "discard a die" and other things that are not in the rules
No rule tells you that if you get a symbol like this: 1, it means that the result is one. These rulers are full of holes.
It is a reroll. It even says right in the spell description it is a reroll. On a reroll with advantage you roll 1 die again, replace that one die and take the higher or lower of the pair - PHB page 173
You never replace both dice with a single reroll and that is exactly you are doing here. Except you are trying to claim that you are only replacing one because the other has already been "discarded" or "ignored" or "not picked" or something else that is not present anywhere in the rules. There is nothing in the spell itself that supports that interpretation.
Any condition which caused advantage or disadvantage when the first roll was made still applies when the Silvery Barbs reroll is made. The target still has advantage from whatever gave him advantage initially. That did not go away because of the Silvery Barbs casting time.
You do not compare the unused die from Advantage/Disadvantage to the Silvery Barbs rerolled die. You are the one that is finding this bizarre meaning in the language, I am changing nothing.
You compare the die that triggered the success to the new D20. The other die from Advantage/Disadvantage is already unused because the die that triggered the success was selected and the other die is no longer relevant to the situation.
If you roll with Advantage a 15 and a 6 you "use" the 15. At this point Advantage has been resolved. If Silvery Barbs is then cast, the 6 is left unused because it was not higher than the 15. If the rerolled die is, say, 9 you use the 9, as it is lower than 15, but not the 6 because it was not "used". The only dice compared after Silvery Barbs are the "used" die from determined through resolving the Advantage and the new D20 roll forced by Silvery Barbs, "using" the lowest of these two.
You do not compare the unused die from Advantage/Disadvantage to the Silvery Barbs rerolled die. You are the one that is finding this bizarre meaning in the language, I am changing nothing.
You compare the die that triggered the success to the new D20. The other die from Advantage/Disadvantage is already unused because the die that triggered the success was selected and the other die is no longer relevant to the situation.
If you aren't changing anything tell me where "the die that triggered the success" is found in the spell. The spell actually states that it triggers on a successful "attack roll", "ability check", or "saving throw", not a successful die roll. This is important as the successful check includes the adv/dis roll as well as the actual roll.
"the other die is no longer relevant to the situation", the other die from adv/dis never resolves or goes away, that's not stated anywhere in the rules. It does not states to discard the lower die, but rather to pick the higher die. The main difference being that the lower die is kept for the purposes of features like this (common language might tell you to discard, but that's contradicted by the rules of rerolling adv/dis which state to keep the die, specific rules override common language).
And we know for a fact that the rules of rerolling adv/dis apply to Silvery Barbs, because the rules of rerolling adv/dis directly calls out "the d20" (the exact language Silvery Barbs uses) as what triggers those rules. "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can...". (emphasis mine)
Now, RAF I'd probably go with your interpretation because I don't want to deal with super dis. or whatever, but RAW is surprisingly clear.
You do not compare the unused die from Advantage/Disadvantage to the Silvery Barbs rerolled die. You are the one that is finding this bizarre meaning in the language, I am changing nothing.
You compare the die that triggered the success to the new D20. The other die from Advantage/Disadvantage is already unused because the die that triggered the success was selected and the other die is no longer relevant to the situation.
If you aren't changing anything tell me where "the die that triggered the success" is found in the spell. The spell actually states that it triggers on a successful check, not a successful roll, this is important as the successful check includes the adv/dis roll as well as the actual roll.
"the other die is no longer relevant to the situation", the other die from adv/dis never resolves or goes away, that's not stated anywhere in the rules. It does not states to discard the lower die, but rather to pick the higher die. The main difference being that the lower die is kept for the purposes of features like this (as clearly stated under the rules of rerolling adv/dis), the keep the lower die the same way you keep the higher die.
And we know for a fact that the rules of rerolling adv/dis apply to Silvery Barbs, because the rules of rerolling adv/dis directly calls out "the d20" (the exact language Silvery Barbs uses) as what triggers those rules. "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can...". (emphasis mine)
Now, do I agree with this RAF? Probably not. But it's completely RAW.
It's literally in the spell? Silvery Barbs is used when a roll succeeds. This means that one of the rolls must trigger a success (ie. the roll succeeds).
For a roll with Advantage to "succeed", Advantage must first be resolved by determining which of the two dice are "used". The roll that is "used" is the roll that triggers the "success", as the trigger for Silvery Barbs to be useable is a "success".
Common language does not matter when it's directly overridden by RAW.
The rules for advantage/disadvantage very clearly states advantage/disadvantage is NOT resolved and uses the same exact thermology of Silvery Barbs. That's probably not a accident.
Edit: I just noticed the adv/dis rules have a typo in them, that's kind of funny. "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game"
Common language does not matter when it's directly overridden by RAW.
The rules for advantage/disadvantage very clearly states advantage/disadvantage is NOT resolved and uses the same exact thermology of Silvery Barbs. That's probably not a accident.
You have to resolve the Advantage/Disadvantage in order for Silvery Barbs to be castable. If you have not resolved Advantage/Disadvantage then you have not picked a "used" die and Silvery Barbs cannot be cast as no success has been determined.
cast as a Reaction when a target succeeds on an attack/check/save
Advantage/disadvantage is not resolved when you pick the used die despite what it may seem
Advantage/disadvantage does more than just provide a single die. If it were resolved when a attack is hit, then features like Sneak Attack would be far less likely to function, as your advantage would be "resolved" by the time you started rolling damage.
The process itself is exactly the same, SB, when cast, does not change the process. If the target has an AC of 15 before you cast SB he still has a 15, if he cast Shield before SB he still has a 20 when you cast SB. If the target has partial cover there is a -2 applied to the roll. If it is an ability check against a passive ability and the opponent is poisoned and has disadvantage then -5 to the challenger still applies after you cast SB.
SB does not change any of this. Why on earth would the other die in advantage or disadvantage all of a sudden not matter after you cast SB when the condition that caused advantage/disadvantage has not changed?
Let's say the targeted of the attack is paralyzed. Is he still paralyzed after you cast Silvery Barbs? Yes he is still paralyzed so attack rolls against him still have advantage. Is the reroll an attack roll? Yes it is an attack roll. How do you resolve an attack roll with advantage - you take the higher of the 2 dice, in this case that is the higher of the - 1. (lower of the original high roll and the silvery barbs roll) and 2. the other die rolled.
Plain as day and clear in the rules! No one yet has offered any part of any rules saying or suggesting it is any different when silvery barbs is cast.
To be honest, everything mentioned thus far in the discussion on advantage/disadvantage rests on this concept of a "discarded die". There is no "discared die" in RAW, nothing tells you to discard a dice with advantage/disadvantage once you determine the result. That other die is still there after you cast Silvery Barbs and as such still has a bearing on the outcome, just like everything else that modifies the roll.
When you roll advantage what do you, then, do with the dice? Roll both and take both? No. You roll both, select the one the rules tell you to select, and discard the other. Are you being intentionally pedantic?
To cast Silvery Barbs the roll had to have succeeded. If you, with Disadvantage, rolled a 13 and a 15 with the 13 succeeding then the 13 is the result that caused the success. Silvery Barbs is then cast forcing a reroll of the die that triggered the success, in this case the 13. You roll a new D20 and compare the result to the 13, taking the lower of the two dice.
The self-same scenario with Advantage would play out similarly. You rolled a 13 and a 15 with the 15 succeeding so 15 is the result that caused the success. Silvery Barbs is then cast forcing a reroll of the die that triggered the success, in this case the 15. You roll a new D20 and compare the result to the 15, taking the lower of the two dice.
It's pretty straightforward, I don't understand all of this debate.
Nicely put and how I would rule it, and supported by RAW as far as I can tell.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
There are people who actively suspend their common sense to try to find holes in the rules. In this case it's pretty clear what the spell does. No need to twist the wording looking for who knows what.
Yes you take both dice and you use the higher dice to determine the result. It is written right there in the rules.
You do not discard any dice. The lower dice is still part of the roll even after the result is determined, just like the attack bonus, any adjustment for cover or anything else that modifies the roll.
You do not discard any of that. I am not being intentionally pedantic, are you intentionally ignoring what the rules actually say about rerolling dice with advantage or disadvantage?
Sure the roll succeeded the first time, then you cast the spell which changes that. It is just like when you cast shield it can change it from a hit to a miss. You reevaluate success vs failure in the normal fashion - in this case using the specific rule for resolving a reroll with advantage or disadvantage.
With disadvantage, if you roll and get a 13 and a 15 you "use" the lowest dice - 13.
If that is enough to succeed then someone can cast Silvery Barbs.
1. If he rolls higher than a 13 (let's say he rolls a 20) then the 13 is not replaced. You again compare 13 and 15 like the rules say to and "use" the lowest which is a 13. The result still succeeds
2. If he rolls lower than a 13, say he rolls a 4. You compare 4 and 15 "use" the lowest, which is a 4. If a 4 is lower than what is needed to succeed it is a failure.
If you roll with advantage you do the exact same thing except use the higher roll. With advantage, if you roll and get a 13 and a 15 you "use" the highest dice - 15.
If that is enough to succeed then someone casts Silvery Barbs and you reroll the 15.
1. If he rolls higher than a 15 (let's say he rolls a 20) then the 15 is not replaced. You again compare 13 and 15 like the rules say to and "use" the highest which is a 15. The result still succeed.
2. If he rolls lower than a 15, say he rolls a 4. You compare 4 and 13 "use" the highest, which is a 13. If a 13 is lower than what is needed to succeed it is a failure, if it is higher it is a success.
That is RAW
Those searching for "holes" and not using common sense are the people trying to argue that we should use the casting time of the spell to determine how to resolve what is a straightforward reroll with advantage.
There is no need to twist any wording, page 173 of the PHB tells you exactly how to do this.
If you roll two dice, pick one, and the other one is ignored, not to be given later consideration, then it is fair to say that you have discarded the unused die. That is the English language. You are arguing minutiae about specific language usage when the usage is synonymous with the process whilst following the rules. It's akin to those who argue they are "travelling" not "driving".
From the rule book.
Silvery Barbs applies to the die that triggered the success and, since specific overrules general, the text after the highlighted doesn't apply. In this case "can" is "must" because it is not an optional reroll, it's a forced reroll.
You don't "pick" a die, with advantage you "use the higher die". That is what the rulebook actually says. There is no need for mental gymnastics here, and no need to fumble around about language, the rules are simple. The rules also say on a reroll with advantage or disadvantage you replace one dice. You have to add words that are not in the rules to support how you want the spell to work. Those words would be there if they were RAW or for that matter RAI.
WRT your traveling anology; Your argument is like saying if you travel to the movies in Dad's car, then Mom's car is discarded and no longer exists for that trip because you used Dad's car for this trip. So if Dad starts to back out of the driveway and he get's a flat tire, you can't simply travel to the movies in Mom's car instead because you chose Dad's car and therefore Mom's car can no longer be used. Mom's car is ignored henceforth with respect to the journey to the movies regardless of any conditions that could make it so you can't use Dad's car.
Specific does overule general, but Silvery Barbs is not what is specific in this case, it is general! The text in Sivery Barbs is how you GENERALLY apply the Silvery barbs reroll. The text on page 173 it is what is specific; it is SPECIFICALLY how you execute a reroll with advantage or disadvantage. Rerolling with advantage or disadvantage is not the GENERAL way of rerolling, it is not the GENERAL way Silvery Barbs is used. It is the SPECIFIC way we are discussing in this thread.
Silvery Barbs does apply to the die that triggered the success, and if the reroll is lower it replaces that die and only that die in accordance with the SPECIFIC rules for doing a reroll with advantage.
Bottom Line: When you make a reroll with advantage or disadvantage you discard 1 die, not 2. Clear as day and unambiguous in the PHB. Nothing in the Silvery Barbs spell changes that, to include the text in the casting time.
You are literally arguing semantics. The highest die "is picked". This is why I said you're being pedantic.
Your adaptation of my analogy makes no sense as I was referring only to how you are arguing synonymous language. Pick, choose, select, use. Synonyms. Ignore, not used, not picked, discard. Also synonyms. When referring to the "used" die you use the former. When referring to the "not used" die you use the latter, all are synonymous with each other and carry the same meaning.
What are you arguing then? If you understand that "Silvery Barbs does apply to the die that triggered the success, and if the reroll is lower it replaces that die and only that die in accordance with the SPECIFIC rules for doing a reroll with advantage." what is the point you're trying to make? Because clearly we agree on how the spell interacts with Advantage/Disadvantage. The spell replaces only the single die that triggered the success and, therefore, the Silvery Barbs reroll is not a reroll of the full, two-dice Advantage/Disadvantage roll (ie. you do not reroll BOTH dice from Advantage/Disadvantage, only the one that was "used", as you insist on putting it.)
I don't know what you are looking for. However, the spell works like this:
The roll is made (it does not matter whether or not it is advantage / disadvantage). It is a success? No. You cannot launch SB. Yes. As a reaction, you can cast SB to force your opponent to take the successful die (the other one, if rolled two for whatever reason, it doesn't matter anymore. Even if it was also a success), and roll it again. You can then give advantage to a creature you see.
There is no confusion possible without actively trying to play dumb.
Yes absolutely he rolls the die again, if it is lower he must take the lower dice. With advantage or disadvantage you roll two dice, Silvery Barbs that one dice and you use both of them to determine success or failure. No confusion at all - PHB page 173-Clear as day.
No one on this entire thread has provided any written rule from any published source that says or suggests you execute a reroll differently becauase of Silvery Barbs.
People have presented a whole bunch theary on why it it "can't" be done RAW, to include "it is already a success", you have to "discard a die" and other things that are not in the rules
I am using the verbiage that is actually in the rules. Nothing more, nothing less. You are changing those words to mean other things and support your theory because you can't support it using any written rules.
Yes but according to the rules the die that is "not used" at first to determine success is "used" after the reroll if it is higher (advantage) or lower (disadvantage) than the other.
That is the whole problem. You are trying to invent a reason why you should not use the other dice (if it is higher), like it says to do in the rules, so you are inventing words like "ignore" or "discard" as if it no longer exists such that it can no longer be used, as if it is not part of the attack roll, ability check or saving throw, when it clearly is.
Because with advantage or disadvantage you use the higher or lower of the two dice, not necessarily the one die which is replaced. PHB page 173.
It is a reroll. It even says right in the spell description it is a reroll. On a reroll with advantage you roll 1 die again, replace that one die and take the higher or lower of the pair - PHB page 173
You never replace both dice with a single reroll and that is exactly you are doing here. Except you are trying to claim that you are only replacing one because the other has already been "discarded" or "ignored" or "not picked" or something else that is not present anywhere in the rules. There is nothing in the spell itself that supports that interpretation.
Any condition which caused advantage or disadvantage when the first roll was made still applies when the Silvery Barbs reroll is made. The target still has advantage from whatever gave him advantage initially. That did not go away because of the Silvery Barbs casting time.
The general rules on Advantage/Disadvantage - to quote again for those that failed to see it before.
Silvery barbs spell says:
For reference, the Lucky trait for halflings says:
All very clear.
No rule tells you that if you get a symbol like this: 1, it means that the result is one. These rulers are full of holes.
You do not compare the unused die from Advantage/Disadvantage to the Silvery Barbs rerolled die. You are the one that is finding this bizarre meaning in the language, I am changing nothing.
You compare the die that triggered the success to the new D20. The other die from Advantage/Disadvantage is already unused because the die that triggered the success was selected and the other die is no longer relevant to the situation.
If you roll with Advantage a 15 and a 6 you "use" the 15. At this point Advantage has been resolved. If Silvery Barbs is then cast, the 6 is left unused because it was not higher than the 15. If the rerolled die is, say, 9 you use the 9, as it is lower than 15, but not the 6 because it was not "used". The only dice compared after Silvery Barbs are the "used" die from determined through resolving the Advantage and the new D20 roll forced by Silvery Barbs, "using" the lowest of these two.
If you aren't changing anything tell me where "the die that triggered the success" is found in the spell. The spell actually states that it triggers on a successful "attack roll", "ability check", or "saving throw", not a successful die roll. This is important as the successful check includes the adv/dis roll as well as the actual roll.
"the other die is no longer relevant to the situation", the other die from adv/dis never resolves or goes away, that's not stated anywhere in the rules. It does not states to discard the lower die, but rather to pick the higher die. The main difference being that the lower die is kept for the purposes of features like this (common language might tell you to discard, but that's contradicted by the rules of rerolling adv/dis which state to keep the die, specific rules override common language).
And we know for a fact that the rules of rerolling adv/dis apply to Silvery Barbs, because the rules of rerolling adv/dis directly calls out "the d20" (the exact language Silvery Barbs uses) as what triggers those rules. "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game, such as the halfling's Lucky trait, lets you reroll or replace the d20, you can...". (emphasis mine)
Now, RAF I'd probably go with your interpretation because I don't want to deal with super dis. or whatever, but RAW is surprisingly clear.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
It's literally in the spell? Silvery Barbs is used when a roll succeeds. This means that one of the rolls must trigger a success (ie. the roll succeeds).
For a roll with Advantage to "succeed", Advantage must first be resolved by determining which of the two dice are "used". The roll that is "used" is the roll that triggers the "success", as the trigger for Silvery Barbs to be useable is a "success".
Common language does not matter when it's directly overridden by RAW.
The rules for advantage/disadvantage very clearly states advantage/disadvantage is NOT resolved and uses the same exact thermology of Silvery Barbs. That's probably not a accident.
Edit: I just noticed the adv/dis rules have a typo in them, that's kind of funny. "When you have advantage or disadvantage and something in the game"
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
You have to resolve the Advantage/Disadvantage in order for Silvery Barbs to be castable. If you have not resolved Advantage/Disadvantage then you have not picked a "used" die and Silvery Barbs cannot be cast as no success has been determined.
Advantage/disadvantage is not resolved when you pick the used die despite what it may seem
Advantage/disadvantage does more than just provide a single die. If it were resolved when a attack is hit, then features like Sneak Attack would be far less likely to function, as your advantage would be "resolved" by the time you started rolling damage.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.