Advantage/disadvantage is not resolved when you pick the used die despite what it may seem
Advantage/disadvantage does more than just provide a single die. If it were resolved when a attack is hit, then features like Sneak Attack would never function, as your advantage would be "resolved" by the time you started rolling damage.
Yes, it is.
Sneak attack is allowed when an attack that had Advantage hits the target.
And Silvery Barbs affecting a advantage die is allowed when an attack that has had Advantage is rerolled.
in fact silvery barbs is resolved (before damage is rolled) BEFORE sneak attack (is damage) is resolved, so you can't argue that advantage is resolved for SB and not for Sneak Attack.
And Silvery Barbs affecting a advantage die is allowed when an attack that has had Advantage is rerolled.
in fact silvery barbs is resolved (before damage is rolled) BEFORE sneak attack (during damage being rolled) is resolved, so you can't argue that advantage is resolved for SB and not for Sneak Attack.
No, Silvery Barbs can only be cast when the roll succeeds. For the roll to succeed you have to have picked a die, thus resolving Advantage/Disadvantage. Sneak attack applies to an attack that has advantage, you still need to hit the target meaning that advantage is resolved but the attack was made with advantage which is the requirement for Sneak Attack.
And Silvery Barbs affecting a advantage die is allowed when an attack that has had Advantage is rerolled.
in fact silvery barbs is resolved (before damage is rolled) BEFORE sneak attack (during damage being rolled) is resolved, so you can't argue that advantage is resolved for SB and not for Sneak Attack.
No, Silvery Barbs can only be cast when the roll succeeds. For the roll to succeed you have to have picked a die, thus resolving Advantage/Disadvantage. Sneak attack applies to an attack that has advantage, you still need to hit the target meaning that advantage is resolved but the attack was made with advantage.
And the rules state that when you reroll a die on a check that was made with advantage, you "reroll or replace only one of the dice".
Where do you get this weird idea that advantage is resolved at all?
And Silvery Barbs affecting a advantage die is allowed when an attack that has had Advantage is rerolled.
in fact silvery barbs is resolved (before damage is rolled) BEFORE sneak attack (during damage being rolled) is resolved, so you can't argue that advantage is resolved for SB and not for Sneak Attack.
No, Silvery Barbs can only be cast when the roll succeeds. For the roll to succeed you have to have picked a die, thus resolving Advantage/Disadvantage. Sneak attack applies to an attack that has advantage, you still need to hit the target meaning that advantage is resolved but the attack was made with advantage.
And the rules state that when you reroll a die on a check that was made with advantage, you "reroll or replace only one of the dice"
That doesn't exactly sound like "one of the dice that succeeded" if you ask me.
Edit: a better example is probably the newest sage advice that you can use Silvery Barbs if none of your dice succeed (legendary resistance). Or for a player example, something that causes a auto-success like Rogue's capstone.
You just roll "the d20", not "the d20 that succeeded" nothing requires the d20 to be the one that succeeded.
Besides I've quoted from like 3 different places in the basic rules and you haven't pointed to a single thing that supports your point.
That doesn't exactly sound like "one of the dice that succeeded" if you ask me.
The "reroll the 1" is using Halfling Luck as an example which allows you to reroll a D20 result of a natural 1 once, not Silvery Barbs. Silvery Barbs literally says "which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw".
You have to use BOTH rules. A reroll is being forced on a roll that had Advantage/Disadvantage meaning you reroll only one of the dice but Silvery Barbs requires the condition when a target succeeds meaning you have to first resolve Advantage/Disadvantage so you know that the target succeeds.
Put together, you reroll only one of the dice when a target succeeds and take the lowest result, per Silvery Barbs. This means you reroll only the one successful die from Advantage/Disadvantage, taking the lower of the two results because Silvery Barbs says "...reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."
successful die literally does not exist in 5e. Advantage/Disadvantage is not resolved when you pick a die.
silvery barbs does not require a successful die, there was a entire sage advice about rerolling unsuccessful dice using silvery barbs (legendary resistance and other autosuccesses)
successful die literally does not exist in 5e. Advantage/Disadvantage is not resolved when you pick a die.
silvery barbs does not require a successful die, there was a entire sage advice about situations where you reroll unsuccessful dice (legendary resistance and other autosuccesses)
Literally what.
"which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw".
It's literally in the spell. The Sage Advice errata applies only to Legendary Resistance.
Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance?
No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
And it only means that Silvery Barbs does not force a creature that has used Legendary Resistance to succeed on a failed save to reroll.
So what's your explanation for Legendary Resistances then? It clearly states right there Silvery Barbs allows you to reroll the unsuccessful d20, and it is something you can still do (in order to grant a ally advantage, albeit not a great idea, still possible)
Also you still haven't addressed that the advantage/disadvantage rules literally use the same wording as the Silvery Barbs spell "reroll the d20", and it very clearly applies to more than just Halfling Luck (that's just the one example posted).
So what's your explanation for Legendary Resistances then? It clearly states right there Silvery Barbs allows you to reroll the unsuccessful d20, and it is something you can still do (in order to grant a ally advantage, albeit not a great idea, still possible)
Silvery Barbs cannot force a reroll of a Legendary Resistance because LR forces the save to succeed and doesn't care about anything else other than the fact that the original save failed.
Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance?
No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
Note the usage of "undo that success" and "Forcing that creature to reroll the d20" I didn't say I was undoing the success, in this case I'm forcing a reroll of a unsuccessful turning it to still be a unsuccessful die in order to grant a ally advantage.
I admitted it was a terrible idea, but still possible RAW.
Edit: It literally says "Forcing that creature to reroll the d20". There is no other way to interpret that. I encourage you to go back and reread my posts, especially the edits I've made like 2 seconds after posting each one cause this conversation is going by way too fast.
Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance. No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
Note the usage of "undo that success" and "Forcing that creature to reroll the d20" I didn't say I was undoing the success, in this case I'm forcing a reroll in order to grant a ally advantage.
I admitted it was a terrible idea, but still possible RAW.
It literally says "Forcing that creature to reroll the d20".
Say a creature fails its save and uses LR to succeed. You cast Silvery Barbs. You consume your spell slot and nothing happens because LR ignores the dice and forces the creature to succeed. You cannot reroll an automatic success because it's an automatic success, the roll is irrelevant.
it states right there I can force that creature to reroll the d20.
Again, I don't care it being a automatic success. I just wanted to reroll a unsuccessful die, idc if it's unsuccessful after I reroll it, at this point I'm just doing it to prove a point it being a optimized decision is a different argument unrelated to this one.
Also
Edit: I encourage you to go back and reread my posts, especially the edits I've made like 2 seconds after posting each one cause this conversation is going by way too fast
it states right there I can force that creature to reroll the d20.
Again, I don't care it being a automatic success. I just wanted to reroll a unsuccessful die, idc if it's unsuccessful after I reroll it at this point I'm just doing it to spite you.
Also
Edit: I encourage you to go back and reread my posts, especially the edits I've made like 2 seconds after posting each one cause this conversation is going by way too fast
Legendary Resistance doesn't care about the roll. Legendary Resistance is used when a creature fails a save and says "No, I succeed." The roll doesn't matter any more. Even if you force a reroll, the roll doesn't matter. It succeeds. That is Legendary Resistance.
Silvery Barbs requires a roll to be rerolled. Legendary Resistance is not a roll, it's an automatic success, thus you cannot force it to reroll after it has used Legendary Resistance because there is no successful roll to be rerolled.
Hey I never said it was a goodidea to reroll a unsuccessful roll, just that it's RAW.
No, this is RAW.
Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance?
No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance.No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
And Silvery Barbs can only affect a successful roll.
It says no because it's answering a different question. I didn't include the first statement because it's irrelevant to this post.
Yes it's a automatic success, but if I reroll a d20 and it gets a nat20, that's still a reroll. I rerolled a success, into another success. It's not that complicated.
Besides, as I stated technically it's not even a complete loss, because rerolling unsuccessful dice allows you to grant allies advantage. Again, terrible way of getting advantage, but this isn't Tips and Tricks it's Rules and Game Mechanics.
Okay this is my last post for today because there's only so long one can spend on a public forum before they eventually have to leave, but If you really want to continue (cause I don't think either of us are moving on this issue) then I'll continue posting when I can.
I do think RAF it's probably best to do it your way, mostly cause turning advantage into super-disadvantage is a bit much (at least lucky disadv. to super adv. is a feat and not a first level spell), but I just don't see it being RAW.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
It says no because it's answering a different question. I didn't include the first statement because it's irrelevant to this post.
Yes it's a automatic success, but if I reroll a d20 and it gets a nat20, that's still a reroll. I rerolled a success, into another success. It's not that complicated.
Besides, as I stated technically it's not even a complete loss, because rerolling unsuccessful dice allows you to grant allies advantage. Again, terrible way of getting advantage, but this isn't Tips and Tricks it's Rules and Game Mechanics.
Okay this is my last post for today because there's only so long one can spend on a public forum before they eventually have to leave, but If you really want to continue (cause I don't think either of us are moving on this issue) then I'll continue posting when I can.
I do think RAF it's probably best to do it your way, mostly cause turning advantage into super-disadvantage is a bit much (at least lucky disadv. to super adv. is a feat and not a first level spell), but I just don't see it being RAW.
That's fair. If you want to spend a spell slot on a forced success, because it's still a success, with the understanding that the only result will be granting an ally advantage, that is within the rules.
You are correct, the question it is answering is not "Can Silvery Barbs be cast in response to Legendary Resistance" it is "Can Silvery Barbs affect Legendary Resistance." If that is the point you were making then I misunderstood due to the mention of rerolling an unsuccessful roll.
Have a good day! This was quite an enjoyable discussion, at least from where I'm sitting. :)
Hey I never said it was a goodidea to reroll a unsuccessful roll, just that it's RAW.
No, this is RAW.
Can the silvery barbs spell in Strixhaven affect Legendary Resistance?
No. When a creature uses Legendary Resistance, the creature turns a failed saving throw into a success, regardless of the number rolled on the d20. Forcing that creature to reroll the d20 afterward doesn’t change the fact that the save succeeded as a result of Legendary Resistance.No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
And Silvery Barbs can only affect a successful roll.
A little clarification on this. There it does not say that you cannot cast SB, but the result is still a success even if you cast it. The trigger is fulfilled (a successful roll), so it can be casted.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yes, it is.
Sneak attack is allowed when an attack that had Advantage hits the target.
And Silvery Barbs affecting a advantage die is allowed when an attack that has had Advantage is rerolled.
in fact silvery barbs is resolved (before damage is rolled) BEFORE sneak attack (is damage) is resolved, so you can't argue that advantage is resolved for SB and not for Sneak Attack.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
No, Silvery Barbs can only be cast when the roll succeeds. For the roll to succeed you have to have picked a die, thus resolving Advantage/Disadvantage. Sneak attack applies to an attack that has advantage, you still need to hit the target meaning that advantage is resolved but the attack was made with advantage which is the requirement for Sneak Attack.
And the rules state that when you reroll a die on a check that was made with advantage, you "reroll or replace only one of the dice".
Where do you get this weird idea that advantage is resolved at all?
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Exactly, the one of the dice that succeeded.
The example provided is literally
"rolls a 1 and a 13... reroll the 1."
That doesn't exactly sound like "one of the dice that succeeded" if you ask me.
Edit: a better example is probably the newest sage advice that you can use Silvery Barbs if none of your dice succeed (legendary resistance). Or for a player example, something that causes a auto-success like Rogue's capstone.
You just roll "the d20", not "the d20 that succeeded" nothing requires the d20 to be the one that succeeded.
Besides I've quoted from like 3 different places in the basic rules and you haven't pointed to a single thing that supports your point.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
The "reroll the 1" is using Halfling Luck as an example which allows you to reroll a D20 result of a natural 1 once, not Silvery Barbs. Silvery Barbs literally says "which you take when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw".
You have to use BOTH rules. A reroll is being forced on a roll that had Advantage/Disadvantage meaning you reroll only one of the dice but Silvery Barbs requires the condition when a target succeeds meaning you have to first resolve Advantage/Disadvantage so you know that the target succeeds.
Put together, you reroll only one of the dice when a target succeeds and take the lowest result, per Silvery Barbs. This means you reroll only the one successful die from Advantage/Disadvantage, taking the lower of the two results because Silvery Barbs says "...reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."
successful die literally does not exist in 5e. Advantage/Disadvantage is not resolved when you pick a die.
silvery barbs does not require a successful die, there was a entire sage advice about rerolling unsuccessful dice using silvery barbs (legendary resistance and other autosuccesses)
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Literally what.
It's literally in the spell. The Sage Advice errata applies only to Legendary Resistance.
And it only means that Silvery Barbs does not force a creature that has used Legendary Resistance to succeed on a failed save to reroll.
So what's your explanation for Legendary Resistances then? It clearly states right there Silvery Barbs allows you to reroll the unsuccessful d20, and it is something you can still do (in order to grant a ally advantage, albeit not a great idea, still possible)
Also you still haven't addressed that the advantage/disadvantage rules literally use the same wording as the Silvery Barbs spell "reroll the d20", and it very clearly applies to more than just Halfling Luck (that's just the one example posted).
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Silvery Barbs cannot force a reroll of a Legendary Resistance because LR forces the save to succeed and doesn't care about anything else other than the fact that the original save failed.
Wrong.
No amount of rerolling will undo that success.
Note the usage of "undo that success" and "Forcing that creature to reroll the d20" I didn't say I was undoing the success, in this case I'm forcing a reroll of a unsuccessful turning it to still be a unsuccessful die in order to grant a ally advantage.
I admitted it was a terrible idea, but still possible RAW.
Edit: It literally says "Forcing that creature to reroll the d20". There is no other way to interpret that. I encourage you to go back and reread my posts, especially the edits I've made like 2 seconds after posting each one cause this conversation is going by way too fast.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Say a creature fails its save and uses LR to succeed. You cast Silvery Barbs. You consume your spell slot and nothing happens because LR ignores the dice and forces the creature to succeed. You cannot reroll an automatic success because it's an automatic success, the roll is irrelevant.
it states right there I can force that creature to reroll the d20.
Again, I don't care it being a automatic success. I just wanted to reroll a unsuccessful die, idc if it's unsuccessful after I reroll it, at this point I'm just doing it to prove a point it being a optimized decision is a different argument unrelated to this one.
Also
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Legendary Resistance doesn't care about the roll. Legendary Resistance is used when a creature fails a save and says "No, I succeed." The roll doesn't matter any more. Even if you force a reroll, the roll doesn't matter. It succeeds. That is Legendary Resistance.
Silvery Barbs requires a roll to be rerolled. Legendary Resistance is not a roll, it's an automatic success, thus you cannot force it to reroll after it has used Legendary Resistance because there is no successful roll to be rerolled.
Hey, reminder for the third time now, I never said it was a good idea to reroll a unsuccessful roll, just that it's RAW.
Also sage advice clearly just stated it could be rerolled. How is "forcing someone to reroll" not a reroll?
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
No, this is RAW.
And Silvery Barbs can only affect a successful roll.
It says no because it's answering a different question. I didn't include the first statement because it's irrelevant to this post.
Yes it's a automatic success, but if I reroll a d20 and it gets a nat20, that's still a reroll. I rerolled a success, into another success. It's not that complicated.
Besides, as I stated technically it's not even a complete loss, because rerolling unsuccessful dice allows you to grant allies advantage. Again, terrible way of getting advantage, but this isn't Tips and Tricks it's Rules and Game Mechanics.
Okay this is my last post for today because there's only so long one can spend on a public forum before they eventually have to leave, but If you really want to continue (cause I don't think either of us are moving on this issue) then I'll continue posting when I can.
I do think RAF it's probably best to do it your way, mostly cause turning advantage into super-disadvantage is a bit much (at least lucky disadv. to super adv. is a feat and not a first level spell), but I just don't see it being RAW.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
That's fair. If you want to spend a spell slot on a forced success, because it's still a success, with the understanding that the only result will be granting an ally advantage, that is within the rules.
You are correct, the question it is answering is not "Can Silvery Barbs be cast in response to Legendary Resistance" it is "Can Silvery Barbs affect Legendary Resistance." If that is the point you were making then I misunderstood due to the mention of rerolling an unsuccessful roll.
Have a good day! This was quite an enjoyable discussion, at least from where I'm sitting. :)
A little clarification on this. There it does not say that you cannot cast SB, but the result is still a success even if you cast it. The trigger is fulfilled (a successful roll), so it can be casted.