Hypothetical question here from a DM with players who are very likely to try this:
If someone tries to pick someone else's pocket with mage hand, would it be a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check? A Spellcasting Ability (Sleight of Hand) check? A Spellcasting Ability (Arcana) check? Dexterity (Arcana)?
A pocket is not generally an open container, as it tends to close (albeit loosely) on its own.
As Plaguescarred has pointed out, the Arcane Trickster Rogue subclass gets additional ways to use Mage Hand:
You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature. You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
For the above 2 reasons, I would say that Mage Hand cannot be used to pickpocket, or if so, that the container (such as a pocket) must be wide open prior-to and during the attempt.
If it is allowed, I would agree with Dexterity (Sleight of Hand), with the caveat that it be with disadvantage, given that it isn't a normally listed ability (Arcane Trickster of course not having such penalty).
You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature’s Wisdom (Perception) check.
So Dex check according to the feature. But I'd see no issue going with spellcasting ability (which is Int) instead.
The real problem with pickpocketing is the paucity of results. Except at very low levels, you should be getting so little it is not worth it. Wow, my 10th level mage just stole a whole gold piece!
Even if you are trying to obtain something specific from a person, chances are it is not in the particular pocket you choose.
Hm. The Arcane Trickster should have some kind of "Find Treasure" spell, which identifies the specific location of a specific small enough to pickpocket item within 100 ft or finds the most valuable item. It should be a 1st level spell that is Enchantment, and be just "S", not "VSM" like Locate Object.
You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature’s Wisdom (Perception) check.
So Dex check according to the feature. But I'd see no issue going with spellcasting ability (which is Int) instead.
So it does. I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing that out.
Hm. The Arcane Trickster should have some kind of "Find Treasure" spell, which identifies the specific location of a specific small enough to pickpocket item within 100 ft or finds the most valuable item. It should be a 1st level spell that is Enchantment, and be just "S", not "VSM" like Locate Object.
Dexterity SoH or casting ability SoH. Although I would probably only allow the use of mage hand to be successful if the creature was unconscious or somehow heavily distracted.
The utility of being able to pickpocket can extend farther than attempting to get money off of NPCs. There could be keys, components for spells, notes, or other useful things available.
reverse pickpocketing could also be considered. Putting a note requesting a time and place for a meeting might be a good way to set up a rendezvous while an NPC is being watched or tailed.
I could see an artificer planting one of their magical tinkering objects to mess with people or cause diversions.
One thing I've always sort of imagined about Mage Hand is that it's highly visible. It's a full-sized, glowing hand... the fact that Arcane Tricksters learn to make the hand invisible is more or less how they're able to use it without anyone noticing.
That said, I'm not against letting players attempt it even without being an AT. I think it makes sense to do a Sleight of Hand check using their spellcasting modifier, but I would have them do it at disadvantage since it's really hard to keep it hidden normally.
As for failed sleight of hand with an AT's invisible mage hand... I think I would adjust depending on how badly they failed. Failing by 1 or 2 I would just say they don't successfully grab anything. Fail by 3-5 and the target notices the feeling of someone rummaging in their pocket and goes on high alert. Fail by 6-10 and they manage to close up their pocket with the hand inside, and now they're aware that it's some form of magic in addition to being on high alert. Fail by 10 or more and they not only catch the hand, they notice the Rogue doing something to control it and realizes it's probably them doing something, although how they use that realization would depend on how smart the target is.
If anything, I'm usually guilty of letting the AT get away with too much on a successful sleight of hand attempt with Mage Hand. And of course the AT has expertise, so he has no trouble with opposed checks or hitting any reasonable DC.
Imagine a thief or trickster going through town pick pocketing all the arcane focuses he can find.
Or just sneaks in on the bad guy and takes his before the fight starts. How many casters keep two on hand? If he can get his component pouch all the better.
A good pickpocket should also be looking to acquire important papers and symbols of authority. The personal items you might need for a disguise later. If you do not need them you could always sell them on the underground market to those who do need them.
If your disguised as a smelly beggar even if your caught it just adds to the effectiveness of the disguise. Just grovel and beg forgiveness.
Being a pickpocket means you never have to worry about having enough cash to get by till the next day. Think of it like this. Your never broke, other people are just carrying your stuff around for you until you need it.
What do you mean by spellcasting ability sleight of hand? An arcane tricksters spellcasting ability would normally be INT but sleight of hand uses DEX.
What do you mean by spellcasting ability sleight of hand? An arcane tricksters spellcasting ability would normally be INT but sleight of hand uses DEX.
Ability checks do not necessarily use their typical ability score. For example, Athletics typically is a Strength check. But a DM could call for a Constitution based Athletics check in some situations, maybe for determining if you could hold onto a branch/ledge/etc for a very long time without moving or something along that nature. In these cases, the player used the DM specified ability modifier, and the adds their proficiency bonus if they're trained in Athletics as normal.
Similarly, a DM could call for a Sleight of Hand check using the spellcaster's primary spellcasting ability modifier instead of their dexterity modifier, because they're using a magical effect instead of their actual hands.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A DM could call for a spellcasting ability sleight of hand check (A sleight of hand check resolved using the sleight of hand skill proficiency but using the stat modifier for the character's spell casting ability instead of dex), if they decide that would be more appropriate than dexterity for making a pickpocketing attempt using Mage Hand.
However, it should be pointed out that in the case of the Arcane Trickster, using the spellcasting ability in this context, directly contradicts RAW. The rules for Mage Hand Legerdemain specifically call out using a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check for using the mage hand to pick pockets (or put something in pockets). In this case, if a DM plans to use the spell casting ability for these sorts of checks instead of dex it becomes a rule that should be shared in session 0 since it changes the functioning of a basic class feature.
"Mage Hand Legerdemain
Starting at 3rd level, when you cast mage hand, you can make the spectral hand invisible, and you can perform the following additional tasks with it:
You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
You can use thieves’ tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.
You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature’s Wisdom (Perception) check.
In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand."
Hypothetical question here from a DM with players who are very likely to try this:
If someone tries to pick someone else's pocket with mage hand, would it be a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check? A Spellcasting Ability (Sleight of Hand) check? A Spellcasting Ability (Arcana) check? Dexterity (Arcana)?
pm me the word "tomato"
she/her
A Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) is normally required to do so by Mage Hand Legerdemain, which is a feature unique to Arcane Trickster rogue.
A pocket is not generally an open container, as it tends to close (albeit loosely) on its own.
As Plaguescarred has pointed out, the Arcane Trickster Rogue subclass gets additional ways to use Mage Hand:
For the above 2 reasons, I would say that Mage Hand cannot be used to pickpocket, or if so, that the container (such as a pocket) must be wide open prior-to and during the attempt.
If it is allowed, I would agree with Dexterity (Sleight of Hand), with the caveat that it be with disadvantage, given that it isn't a normally listed ability (Arcane Trickster of course not having such penalty).
Yeah, this very much requires being an arcane trickster.
After that requirement is met, I'd say spellcasting ability sleight of hand (though 99% of skill checks are up to DM to decide).
Yeah, that would specifically require Mage Hand Legerdemain. I agree though I would call for Spellcasting Ability (Sleight of Hand) for it though.
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So Dex check according to the feature. But I'd see no issue going with spellcasting ability (which is Int) instead.
Thank you for the help.
pm me the word "tomato"
she/her
The real problem with pickpocketing is the paucity of results. Except at very low levels, you should be getting so little it is not worth it. Wow, my 10th level mage just stole a whole gold piece!
Even if you are trying to obtain something specific from a person, chances are it is not in the particular pocket you choose.
Hm. The Arcane Trickster should have some kind of "Find Treasure" spell, which identifies the specific location of a specific small enough to pickpocket item within 100 ft or finds the most valuable item. It should be a 1st level spell that is Enchantment, and be just "S", not "VSM" like Locate Object.
So it does. I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing that out.
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So something like this?
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Dexterity SoH or casting ability SoH. Although I would probably only allow the use of mage hand to be successful if the creature was unconscious or somehow heavily distracted.
The utility of being able to pickpocket can extend farther than attempting to get money off of NPCs. There could be keys, components for spells, notes, or other useful things available.
reverse pickpocketing could also be considered. Putting a note requesting a time and place for a meeting might be a good way to set up a rendezvous while an NPC is being watched or tailed.
I could see an artificer planting one of their magical tinkering objects to mess with people or cause diversions.
Reverse pickpocketing a ball bearing or a cp for use with locate object is a great way to track someone too.
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One thing I've always sort of imagined about Mage Hand is that it's highly visible. It's a full-sized, glowing hand... the fact that Arcane Tricksters learn to make the hand invisible is more or less how they're able to use it without anyone noticing.
That said, I'm not against letting players attempt it even without being an AT. I think it makes sense to do a Sleight of Hand check using their spellcasting modifier, but I would have them do it at disadvantage since it's really hard to keep it hidden normally.
As for failed sleight of hand with an AT's invisible mage hand... I think I would adjust depending on how badly they failed. Failing by 1 or 2 I would just say they don't successfully grab anything. Fail by 3-5 and the target notices the feeling of someone rummaging in their pocket and goes on high alert. Fail by 6-10 and they manage to close up their pocket with the hand inside, and now they're aware that it's some form of magic in addition to being on high alert. Fail by 10 or more and they not only catch the hand, they notice the Rogue doing something to control it and realizes it's probably them doing something, although how they use that realization would depend on how smart the target is.
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If anything, I'm usually guilty of letting the AT get away with too much on a successful sleight of hand attempt with Mage Hand. And of course the AT has expertise, so he has no trouble with opposed checks or hitting any reasonable DC.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Imagine a thief or trickster going through town pick pocketing all the arcane focuses he can find.
Or just sneaks in on the bad guy and takes his before the fight starts. How many casters keep two on hand? If he can get his component pouch all the better.
A good pickpocket should also be looking to acquire important papers and symbols of authority. The personal items you might need for a disguise later. If you do not need them you could always sell them on the underground market to those who do need them.
If your disguised as a smelly beggar even if your caught it just adds to the effectiveness of the disguise. Just grovel and beg forgiveness.
Being a pickpocket means you never have to worry about having enough cash to get by till the next day. Think of it like this. Your never broke, other people are just carrying your stuff around for you until you need it.
Ok so what i took the Telekinetic feat, where it lets me ignore the somatic and verbal component of Mage Hand, and the range would be doubled.
What do you mean by spellcasting ability sleight of hand? An arcane tricksters spellcasting ability would normally be INT but sleight of hand uses DEX.
Right, so a spellcasting ability sleight of hand would use Int instead of Dex.
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Ability checks do not necessarily use their typical ability score. For example, Athletics typically is a Strength check. But a DM could call for a Constitution based Athletics check in some situations, maybe for determining if you could hold onto a branch/ledge/etc for a very long time without moving or something along that nature. In these cases, the player used the DM specified ability modifier, and the adds their proficiency bonus if they're trained in Athletics as normal.
Similarly, a DM could call for a Sleight of Hand check using the spellcaster's primary spellcasting ability modifier instead of their dexterity modifier, because they're using a magical effect instead of their actual hands.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A DM could call for a spellcasting ability sleight of hand check (A sleight of hand check resolved using the sleight of hand skill proficiency but using the stat modifier for the character's spell casting ability instead of dex), if they decide that would be more appropriate than dexterity for making a pickpocketing attempt using Mage Hand.
However, it should be pointed out that in the case of the Arcane Trickster, using the spellcasting ability in this context, directly contradicts RAW. The rules for Mage Hand Legerdemain specifically call out using a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check for using the mage hand to pick pockets (or put something in pockets). In this case, if a DM plans to use the spell casting ability for these sorts of checks instead of dex it becomes a rule that should be shared in session 0 since it changes the functioning of a basic class feature.
"Mage Hand Legerdemain
Starting at 3rd level, when you cast mage hand, you can make the spectral hand invisible, and you can perform the following additional tasks with it:
You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature’s Wisdom (Perception) check.
In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand."