So Cantrip Formulas reads: "You have scribed a set of arcane formulas in your spellbook that you can use to formulate a cantrip in your mind. Whenever you finish a long rest and consult those formulas in your spellbook, you can replace one wizard cantripyou knowwith another cantrip from the wizard spell list."
Now turn your attention to the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting feature, which states:
Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to cast spells. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the wizard spell list.
Cantrips
You learn two cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn an additional wizard cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
Now I might be a little nuts here, but the raw wording of this leads me to think that the Cantrips learned through Eldritch Knight still count as Wizard Cantrips, and thus should qualify for the effect of Cantrip Formulas, thus allowing a Wizard-Eldritch Knight multiclass (and by extension, a Wizard-Arcane Trickster multiclass) to use the wizard feature to change out Eldritch Knight Cantrips.
Now I might be a little nuts here, but the raw wording of this leads me to think that the Cantrips learned through Eldritch Knight still count as Wizard Cantrips, and thus should qualify for the effect of Cantrip Formulas, thus allowing a Wizard-Eldritch Knight multiclass (and by extension, a Wizard-Arcane Trickster multiclass) to use the wizard feature to change out Eldritch Knight Cantrips.
I'd say that the last sentence shows you're right. Nothing in the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting feature ever says they get Eldritch Knight cantrips/spells, it all says they get Wizard cantrips/spells and thus they should qualify if you also have the Cantrip Formulas feature.
Cantrip Formulas is a Wizard class feature, not something available to just anyone who knows a Wizard cantrip. The Eldritch Knight may know Wizard cantrips and be 3rd Level but are still a level 3 Fighter, not a level 3 Wizard. It is an ability of the class, not the cantrips.
He specifically asked about a multiclass character though so he would have the Wizard class feature.
Now I might be a little nuts here, but the raw wording of this leads me to think that the Cantrips learned through Eldritch Knight still count as Wizard Cantrips, and thus should qualify for the effect of Cantrip Formulas, thus allowing a Wizard-Eldritch Knight multiclass (and by extension, a Wizard-Arcane Trickster multiclass) to use the wizard feature to change out Eldritch Knight Cantrips.
I'd say that the last sentence shows you're right. Nothing in the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting feature ever says they get Eldritch Knight cantrips/spells, it all says they get Wizard cantrips/spells and thus they should qualify if you also have the Cantrip Formulas feature.
But it is still a serious question as to whether EK spells that you know are in a separate bin from spells learned through the wizard class. Certainly if a cleric/wizard knew toll the dead through cleric, its wizard class levels wouldn't allow cantrip formulas to apply to it (though I know clerics have a similar ability). But you are right that the eldritch knight subclass calls the spells you learn "wizard spells" all over the place.
I am not sure really if the multiclass rules, which basically say that you treat all of your spells known lists separately, are what to follow here. Cantrip formulas is a rule on spells known/prepared, and I think the multiclass rules intend that to only work on stuff known through the wizard class. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any reason to not apply any class rules across both classes' spells. Can you only learn abjuration and evocation spells when you gain wizard levels? Are you limited to a total of wizard level + int mod for all spells that you know (do the EK spells count as wizard spells against that total)?
Is it generally accepted that all wizard class features work for EK spells?
Wizard cantrips are cantrips that you get from the wizard class. Eldritch knight cantrips are cantrips you get from the eldritch knight subclass.
Let's take a different approach here. Look at the Potent Spellcasting feature of some cleric subclasses:
"Starting at 8th level, you add your wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip."
Let's say a wizard learns toll the dead, which is on both the wizard and cleric spell lists. This wizard then multiclasses into cleric for eight levels and gains potent spellcasting from whichever subclass he chose. He cannot use potent spellcasting on toll the dead because toll the dead is a wizard cantrips for him, not a cleric cantrip. He could, however, use it if he also learned toll the dead as a cleric, because then he would have it as a cleric cantrip.
Wizard cantrips are cantrips that you get from the wizard class. Eldritch knight cantrips are cantrips you get from the eldritch knight subclass.
However logical that would feel there is nothing in the rules actually say that.
The difference with the Cleric example you make is that all Cleric class/spellcasting features says "Cleric spells/cantrips" while the Eldritch Knight spellcasting feature says "Wizard spells/cantrips".
I'm not saying that it makes much sense or that it necessarily should be this way. It's just a quirk that comes from then cutting corners and not giving EK's and AT's their own spell lists and so on.
But I really could see going either way on this. Cleric spells are cleric spells, and wizard spells are wizard spell, but EK calls the spells you learn also wizard spells. Potent Spellcasting from the cleric does not apply to your wizard cantrips -- or EK cantrips (because it is limited to cleric spells) but Potent Cantrip from the evocation wizard would apply to cleric cantrips because it is not limited by class.
The question is more akin to does an evocation wizard's Empowered Evocation (which is limited to wizard spells) apply to EK spells? Because I'd use the same reasoning for Cantrip Formulas.
Wizard cantrips are cantrips that you get from the wizard class. Eldritch knight cantrips are cantrips you get from the eldritch knight subclass.
Sure sucks that according to you, EK can't csst spells with their slots. Since the spells that they know are not wizard spells, but their spell slots can only be used for wizard spells:
The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher.
Decided to cut out your argument about buffs that apply only to cleric cantrips don't buff wizard cantrips as that is not relevant to the discussion of whether wizard cantrips count as wizard cantrips.
The Cantrip section of the Spellcasting feature for Eldritch Knight even explicitly uses the phrase “wizard cantrip” in the second sentence:
Cantrips
You learn two cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn an additionalwizard cantripof your choice at 10th level.
If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck….
So you'd say the same thing for all features that work on wizard spells: they work on EK spells too. I think this is the most natural result.
I'm trying to look to see if there is any reason to not allow it, and I cannot find any.
But I still don't know how to understand "Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell." with this particular multiclass. Are your EK spells associated still with the wizard class? Does it actually matter? No, I don't know of any rules where it would other than class features limited to one class (that, under this ruling would work for both anyway).
Edit: But it is still a question without an obvious answer.
I was just looking through some of the Wiz features & Subclasses’ features and even stuff like the Evoker’s Empowered Evocation & Overchannel would technically apply to any spells gained as an EK. Of course, that would be a silly dip because the juice wouldn’t be worth the squeeze, but still, technically applicable.
Wizard cantrips are cantrips that you get from the wizard class. Eldritch knight cantrips are cantrips you get from the eldritch knight subclass.
However logical that would feel there is nothing in the rules actually say that.
The difference with the Cleric example you make is that all Cleric class/spellcasting features says "Cleric spells/cantrips" while the Eldritch Knight spellcasting feature says "Wizard spells/cantrips".
I'm not saying that it makes much sense or that it necessarily should be this way. It's just a quirk that comes from then cutting corners and not giving EK's and AT's their own spell lists and so on.
I apparently glossed over that completely and assumed it said "cantrips from the wizard spell list" and not "wizard cantrips." My mistake. 😐
What have I started?.......let's pore more fuel on this fire shall we?
So to further the original question, let me make a couple point.
Magical Secrets
By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two spells from any classes, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip.
The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table.
You learn two additional spells from any classes at 14th level and again at 18th level.
Also see:
Pact of the Tome
Your patron gives you a grimoire called a Book of Shadows. When you gain this feature, choose three cantrips from any class’s spell list (the three needn’t be from the same list). While the book is on your person, you can cast those cantrips at will. They don’t count against your number of cantrips known. If they don’t appear on the warlock spell list, they are nonetheless warlock spells for you.
If you lose your Book of Shadows, you can perform a 1-hour ceremony to receive a replacement from your patron. This ceremony can be performed during a short or long rest, and it destroys the previous book. The book turns to ash when you die.
Now then, in both the above cases, the features specifically treat the spells learned as though they were from your class if they aren't normally. This means that even if they are say a wizard spell, they don't use Int but instead the spellcasting stat of your class. Now then, let's have a look at another feature:
Magic Initiate
Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class's spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again using this feat.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.
So a few things to unpack here. First, it's that the spells you get with this feature do NOT change from whatever class spells they're from. If you pick a spell from the wizard spell list, it's a wizard spell. If you pick Bard, it's a bard spell. As a result, you use that classes spellcasting stat. But more importantly then that is a clarification on the feat. You can cast the 1st level spell learned from this feat using a spell slot, but ONLY if your class, and the class picked in the feat are the same class, so a Wizard picking Magic Initiate Wizard.
So, with all that said. If the source of learning the spell specifies what the spell is as far as class goes. The bard and warlock features change the spell to be a bard or warlock spell respectively, while Magic Initiate does not. The same is indicated by Eldritch Knight. No where in the class does it specify "Eldritch Knight spell", instead simply referring to "Wizard spell" and "Wizard Spell List" So by the president set by the above features, that would mean spells learned from Eldritch Knight (and by extension Arcane Trickster rogues) are counted as Wizard Spells, and so should be affected by any feature that interacts with wizard spells specifically.
Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class's spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again using this feat.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.
So a few things to unpack here. First, it's that the spells you get with this feature do NOT change from whatever class spells they're from. If you pick a spell from the wizard spell list, it's a wizard spell. If you pick Bard, it's a bard spell. As a result, you use that classes spellcasting stat. But more importantly then that is a clarification on the feat. You can cast the 1st level spell learned from this feat using a spell slot, but ONLY if your class, and the class picked in the feat are the same class, so a Wizard picking Magic Initiate Wizard.
Actually it's a bit more complicated than that. The Feat only says that you learn the spell, it does not say that you have the spell prepared.
So for the classes that use prepared spells (Cleric, Druid) you only get that one free casting. If they want to be able to cast it with their spell slots then they need to prepare it as normal, which of course they can only do it it is on their list which means that they would have been able to prepare it anyway.
For characters that doesn't have a spellcasting feature then you only ever get that one free casting. And the same holds true for any classes that isn't on the list in the feat (Artificer, Paladin, Ranger).
The classes that use known spells have it better as the chosen spell expands the pool of known spells and thus they can cast it with their slots.
Of course usually the aim of the feat is the cantrips and they work as expected for everyone, you just might be stuck with a suboptimal spellcasting ability for them.
I think an important question is how important is being able to change cantrips in your game? If it is very powerful then you should have some limitations and if it is insignificant then allow changing of cantrips just like you allow a PC to change cloths.
I would House Rule (if it is not an official rule) it like this, where you get spells is important and the rules for those spells can be modified by the class, feat or racial ability. So in your Figh Eld Kn/ Wiz Bladsinger idea above the cantrips I got from my picks as a wiz could be swiped out easily and the cantrips from Figh Eld Kn one could be changed when I level (if I remember the rules right on being able to change cantrips when leveling right). So class abilities modify things I get from that class.
Why? The reason is to make class's matter and the choices you make when leveling in that class matter. Note, if I remember correctly you can swap things when leveling so you may swap cantrips from one class to another to promote more versatility from the cantrips you can change easily. Does this make the game a little harder, yes but on D&DB it is easy to track where things come from and if you do pen and paper the GM can institute a tracking rule so you list what you get at levels and when changes are made.
As you feat note: If I had a class and the magic initiate feat that were the same then the rules for switching cantrips would follow the rules of the class.
Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class's spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again using this feat.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.
So a few things to unpack here. First, it's that the spells you get with this feature do NOT change from whatever class spells they're from. If you pick a spell from the wizard spell list, it's a wizard spell. If you pick Bard, it's a bard spell. As a result, you use that classes spellcasting stat. But more importantly then that is a clarification on the feat. You can cast the 1st level spell learned from this feat using a spell slot, but ONLY if your class, and the class picked in the feat are the same class, so a Wizard picking Magic Initiate Wizard.
Actually it's a bit more complicated than that. The Feat only says that you learn the spell, it does not say that you have the spell prepared.
Which has always been dumb and is even dumber now that they are printing feats that don't even care about class.
Magic initiate needs an update to be brought up to the standard of fey touched/shadow touched/strixhaven initiate. All the old races with spells are being updated in MP:MotM to work like newer monster with spells (like fairy and hexblood).
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So Cantrip Formulas reads: "You have scribed a set of arcane formulas in your spellbook that you can use to formulate a cantrip in your mind. Whenever you finish a long rest and consult those formulas in your spellbook, you can replace one wizard cantrip you know with another cantrip from the wizard spell list."
Now turn your attention to the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting feature, which states:
Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to cast spells. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the wizard spell list.
Cantrips
You learn two cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. You learn an additional wizard cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
Now I might be a little nuts here, but the raw wording of this leads me to think that the Cantrips learned through Eldritch Knight still count as Wizard Cantrips, and thus should qualify for the effect of Cantrip Formulas, thus allowing a Wizard-Eldritch Knight multiclass (and by extension, a Wizard-Arcane Trickster multiclass) to use the wizard feature to change out Eldritch Knight Cantrips.
I'd say that the last sentence shows you're right. Nothing in the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting feature ever says they get Eldritch Knight cantrips/spells, it all says they get Wizard cantrips/spells and thus they should qualify if you also have the Cantrip Formulas feature.
He specifically asked about a multiclass character though so he would have the Wizard class feature.
But it is still a serious question as to whether EK spells that you know are in a separate bin from spells learned through the wizard class. Certainly if a cleric/wizard knew toll the dead through cleric, its wizard class levels wouldn't allow cantrip formulas to apply to it (though I know clerics have a similar ability). But you are right that the eldritch knight subclass calls the spells you learn "wizard spells" all over the place.
I am not sure really if the multiclass rules, which basically say that you treat all of your spells known lists separately, are what to follow here. Cantrip formulas is a rule on spells known/prepared, and I think the multiclass rules intend that to only work on stuff known through the wizard class. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any reason to not apply any class rules across both classes' spells. Can you only learn abjuration and evocation spells when you gain wizard levels? Are you limited to a total of wizard level + int mod for all spells that you know (do the EK spells count as wizard spells against that total)?
Is it generally accepted that all wizard class features work for EK spells?
Yeah, EK spells are wizard spells, so I suppose this works.
And it isn't like it is overpowered or anything, so no reason to prevent it.
Wizard cantrips are cantrips that you get from the wizard class. Eldritch knight cantrips are cantrips you get from the eldritch knight subclass.
Let's take a different approach here. Look at the Potent Spellcasting feature of some cleric subclasses:
"Starting at 8th level, you add your wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip."
Let's say a wizard learns toll the dead, which is on both the wizard and cleric spell lists. This wizard then multiclasses into cleric for eight levels and gains potent spellcasting from whichever subclass he chose. He cannot use potent spellcasting on toll the dead because toll the dead is a wizard cantrips for him, not a cleric cantrip. He could, however, use it if he also learned toll the dead as a cleric, because then he would have it as a cleric cantrip.
However logical that would feel there is nothing in the rules actually say that.
The difference with the Cleric example you make is that all Cleric class/spellcasting features says "Cleric spells/cantrips" while the Eldritch Knight spellcasting feature says "Wizard spells/cantrips".
I'm not saying that it makes much sense or that it necessarily should be this way. It's just a quirk that comes from then cutting corners and not giving EK's and AT's their own spell lists and so on.
But I really could see going either way on this. Cleric spells are cleric spells, and wizard spells are wizard spell, but EK calls the spells you learn also wizard spells. Potent Spellcasting from the cleric does not apply to your wizard cantrips -- or EK cantrips (because it is limited to cleric spells) but Potent Cantrip from the evocation wizard would apply to cleric cantrips because it is not limited by class.
The question is more akin to does an evocation wizard's Empowered Evocation (which is limited to wizard spells) apply to EK spells? Because I'd use the same reasoning for Cantrip Formulas.
Sure sucks that according to you, EK can't csst spells with their slots. Since the spells that they know are not wizard spells, but their spell slots can only be used for wizard spells:
Decided to cut out your argument about buffs that apply only to cleric cantrips don't buff wizard cantrips as that is not relevant to the discussion of whether wizard cantrips count as wizard cantrips.
The Cantrip section of the Spellcasting feature for Eldritch Knight even explicitly uses the phrase “wizard cantrip” in the second sentence:
If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck….
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So you'd say the same thing for all features that work on wizard spells: they work on EK spells too. I think this is the most natural result.
I'm trying to look to see if there is any reason to not allow it, and I cannot find any.
But I still don't know how to understand "Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell." with this particular multiclass. Are your EK spells associated still with the wizard class? Does it actually matter? No, I don't know of any rules where it would other than class features limited to one class (that, under this ruling would work for both anyway).
Edit: But it is still a question without an obvious answer.
Yeah… try as I might I can’t see any other way to slice it. 🤷♂️
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I was just looking through some of the Wiz features & Subclasses’ features and even stuff like the Evoker’s Empowered Evocation & Overchannel would technically apply to any spells gained as an EK. Of course, that would be a silly dip because the juice wouldn’t be worth the squeeze, but still, technically applicable.
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I apparently glossed over that completely and assumed it said "cantrips from the wizard spell list" and not "wizard cantrips." My mistake. 😐
What have I started?.......let's pore more fuel on this fire shall we?
So to further the original question, let me make a couple point.
Magical Secrets
By 10th level, you have plundered magical knowledge from a wide spectrum of disciplines. Choose two spells from any classes, including this one. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip.
The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table.
You learn two additional spells from any classes at 14th level and again at 18th level.
Also see:
Pact of the Tome
Your patron gives you a grimoire called a Book of Shadows. When you gain this feature, choose three cantrips from any class’s spell list (the three needn’t be from the same list). While the book is on your person, you can cast those cantrips at will. They don’t count against your number of cantrips known. If they don’t appear on the warlock spell list, they are nonetheless warlock spells for you.
If you lose your Book of Shadows, you can perform a 1-hour ceremony to receive a replacement from your patron. This ceremony can be performed during a short or long rest, and it destroys the previous book. The book turns to ash when you die.
Now then, in both the above cases, the features specifically treat the spells learned as though they were from your class if they aren't normally. This means that even if they are say a wizard spell, they don't use Int but instead the spellcasting stat of your class. Now then, let's have a look at another feature:
Magic Initiate
Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class's spell list.
So a few things to unpack here. First, it's that the spells you get with this feature do NOT change from whatever class spells they're from. If you pick a spell from the wizard spell list, it's a wizard spell. If you pick Bard, it's a bard spell. As a result, you use that classes spellcasting stat. But more importantly then that is a clarification on the feat. You can cast the 1st level spell learned from this feat using a spell slot, but ONLY if your class, and the class picked in the feat are the same class, so a Wizard picking Magic Initiate Wizard.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#MagicInitiate
So, with all that said. If the source of learning the spell specifies what the spell is as far as class goes. The bard and warlock features change the spell to be a bard or warlock spell respectively, while Magic Initiate does not. The same is indicated by Eldritch Knight. No where in the class does it specify "Eldritch Knight spell", instead simply referring to "Wizard spell" and "Wizard Spell List" So by the president set by the above features, that would mean spells learned from Eldritch Knight (and by extension Arcane Trickster rogues) are counted as Wizard Spells, and so should be affected by any feature that interacts with wizard spells specifically.
Actually it's a bit more complicated than that. The Feat only says that you learn the spell, it does not say that you have the spell prepared.
So for the classes that use prepared spells (Cleric, Druid) you only get that one free casting. If they want to be able to cast it with their spell slots then they need to prepare it as normal, which of course they can only do it it is on their list which means that they would have been able to prepare it anyway.
For characters that doesn't have a spellcasting feature then you only ever get that one free casting. And the same holds true for any classes that isn't on the list in the feat (Artificer, Paladin, Ranger).
The classes that use known spells have it better as the chosen spell expands the pool of known spells and thus they can cast it with their slots.
Of course usually the aim of the feat is the cantrips and they work as expected for everyone, you just might be stuck with a suboptimal spellcasting ability for them.
I think an important question is how important is being able to change cantrips in your game? If it is very powerful then you should have some limitations and if it is insignificant then allow changing of cantrips just like you allow a PC to change cloths.
I would House Rule (if it is not an official rule) it like this, where you get spells is important and the rules for those spells can be modified by the class, feat or racial ability. So in your Figh Eld Kn/ Wiz Bladsinger idea above the cantrips I got from my picks as a wiz could be swiped out easily and the cantrips from Figh Eld Kn one could be changed when I level (if I remember the rules right on being able to change cantrips when leveling right). So class abilities modify things I get from that class.
Why? The reason is to make class's matter and the choices you make when leveling in that class matter. Note, if I remember correctly you can swap things when leveling so you may swap cantrips from one class to another to promote more versatility from the cantrips you can change easily. Does this make the game a little harder, yes but on D&DB it is easy to track where things come from and if you do pen and paper the GM can institute a tracking rule so you list what you get at levels and when changes are made.
As you feat note: If I had a class and the magic initiate feat that were the same then the rules for switching cantrips would follow the rules of the class.
Which has always been dumb and is even dumber now that they are printing feats that don't even care about class.
Magic initiate needs an update to be brought up to the standard of fey touched/shadow touched/strixhaven initiate. All the old races with spells are being updated in MP:MotM to work like newer monster with spells (like fairy and hexblood).