I don't have an answer, which I know is useless here, so basically I'm just commenting to subscribe to the thread because I am SUPER curious as to how others justify either way lol
If that were the case, what use would that spell have? If there is an equal chance that you'd polymorph your enemy into a chicken or into a T-Rex, why would the spell exist? I understand that the spell doesn't outright say the caster chooses the form, but this feels like one of those RAI moments because the alternative makes a fourth-level spell worthless.
So, yes. The caster gets to choose the creature that is polymorphed into.
The major difference is that the Conjure spells include the term, "The DM has the Creatures' Statistics", while Polymorph doesn't. To my knowledge that was supposed to be what shows that it's the DM that chooses the form of the creatures summoned (even though the language of the spell does not at all make that obvious).
I've been taking it for granted that the caster chooses the form polymorph takes.
But thinking about the reasons Sage Advice gives for why the DM picks the creatures for Conjure Animals makes me wonder if I've been assuming wrong.
The reason Conjure Animals doesn't let the player pick is because it doesn't explicitly say so. They just get to pick the number of animals and CR.
Polymorph only lets the player choose the target, not even the CR.
Does this mean Polymorph is totally the DM's choice?
The SAC entry specifying that Conjure Animals has the DM choose what appears is explicit that the spellcaster chooses one of the listed CR vs Quantity options, and then the DM fulfills that option as the DM sees fit. Assuming this sets precedent, it means Polymorph lets the spellcaster choose the Beast (within the given CR constraints - remember, as with all 5E rules, any time a PC can't do something the rules require them to do without more information, the rule gives the PC that information, so Polymorph getting through the target's save tells the spellcaster the target's CR) and the DM fulfills that choice as the DM sees fit. So, supposing you choose cat, the DM chooses what sort of cat, which is why you can't use Polymorph to disguise yourself as a specific beast - e.g. you can't necessarily turn yourself into a perfect duplicate of the King's Scottish Fold (you can't even necessarily turn yourself into a Scottish Fold, let alone one with markings matching the King's cat).
If that were the case, what use would that spell have? If there is an equal chance that you'd polymorph your enemy into a chicken or into a T-Rex, why would the spell exist? I understand that the spell doesn't outright say the caster chooses the form, but this feels like one of those RAI moments because the alternative makes a fourth-level spell worthless.
So, yes. The caster gets to choose the creature that is polymorphed into.
The same argument could be said about Conjuration spells. If you're banking on 8 wolves and get 8 rats, the spell is basically useless.
I think its a good argument, but they retconned a whole class of spells anyways.
The major difference is that the Conjure spells include the term, "The DM has the Creatures' Statistics", while Polymorph doesn't. To my knowledge that was supposed to be what shows that it's the DM that chooses the form of the creatures summoned (even though the language of the spell does not at all make that obvious).
I can sort of see what you mean, but the spell does also give the caster a sample list of a few dozen beasts to choose from as though it is their choice. If we are just going off context clues, it looks like the part about the DM having the statistics just refers to the index in the DM guide having all the beasts from the basic rules.
Except those creatures are specifically called out to be friendly to you or under your control in some way. If you turn yourself into a chicken, stats and all, when you wanted to be a TRex there is nothing you can do really. You've waisted a 4th level spell slot.
Except those creatures are specifically called out to be friendly to you or under your control in some way. If you turn yourself into a chicken, stats and all, when you wanted to be a TRex there is nothing you can do really. You've waisted a 4th level spell slot.
If you turn yourself into a chicken, you at least get a buffer of extra hit points, however small. And it would be pretty twisted for a DM to play that card when you really need something more powerful.
And conjure animals is a 3rd level spell that can also be wasted if you summon chickens. That is the danger of the DM having the discretion.
I mean, you've gotta follow the fiction. This is what you cast when a meddlesome child has wandered into your hut in the woods and won't stop touching your various poultices and tinctures, to make him live as a frog until he's learned his lesson. If it instead could turn him into a monkey, well, that would just make him more destructive, probably. You'd never risk such a thing. So, as a DM, you've gotta ask: Do I want my game to be one where children can get turned into frogs? :P
I mean, you've gotta follow the fiction. This is what you cast when a meddlesome child has wandered into your hut in the woods and won't stop touching your various poultices and tinctures, to make him live as a frog until he's learned his lesson. If it instead could turn him into a monkey, well, that would just make him more destructive, probably. You'd never risk such a thing. So, as a DM, you've gotta ask: Do I want my game to be one where children can get turned into frogs? :P
Yeah, I would never risk turning an annoying child into a creature for whom throwing its own feces is socially acceptable lol
The intention seems to be that when a spell offers you an explicit choice, the caster only gets to make that explicit choice (in the case of the conjures, that is the number and CR), whereas spells that offer an implied choice allow the caster to make that choice as well. Certainly, minor illusion would work a lot differently if the caster was only given choice when explicitly told so.
Except those creatures are specifically called out to be friendly to you or under your control in some way. If you turn yourself into a chicken, stats and all, when you wanted to be a TRex there is nothing you can do really. You've waisted a 4th level spell slot.
If you turn yourself into a chicken, you at least get a buffer of extra hit points, however small. And it would be pretty twisted for a DM to play that card when you really need something more powerful.
And conjure animals is a 3rd level spell that can also be wasted if you summon chickens. That is the danger of the DM having the discretion.
Your DM is supposed to stick to the maximum CR you choose. Otherwise it makes no sense to let you choose CR at all.
Yes, they have the words "or Lower" in it, that makes less sense.
Polymorph does not grant the "choose any of these options" and it is clearly supposed to be your choice.
Note, the main reason the Conjure type spells do not let you have the choice is because many of the non-beast versions can summon creatures that have abilities that are BETTER than spells of the same level. WotC did not want to have to go through each creature and check for that abuse, so they stop you from making the selection and leave it up to the DM.
The most obvious example is the 4th level Druid Conjure Woodand Beings that can summon Pixies that can cast Polymorph.
Except those creatures are specifically called out to be friendly to you or under your control in some way. If you turn yourself into a chicken, stats and all, when you wanted to be a TRex there is nothing you can do really. You've waisted a 4th level spell slot.
If you turn yourself into a chicken, you at least get a buffer of extra hit points, however small. And it would be pretty twisted for a DM to play that card when you really need something more powerful.
And conjure animals is a 3rd level spell that can also be wasted if you summon chickens. That is the danger of the DM having the discretion.
Your DM is supposed to stick to the maximum CR you choose. Otherwise it makes no sense to let you choose CR at all.
Yes, they have the words "or Lower" in it, that makes less sense.
Polymorph does not grant the "choose any of these options" and it is clearly supposed to be your choice.
Note, the main reason the Conjure type spells do not let you have the choice is because many of the non-beast versions can summon creatures that have abilities that are BETTER than spells of the same level. WotC did not want to have to go through each creature and check for that abuse, so they stop you from making the selection and leave it up to the DM.
The most obvious example is the 4th level Druid Conjure Woodand Beings that can summon Pixies that can cast Polymorph.
There can be some call for wanting lower cr creatures. Flying snakes are arguably far better than many cr 1/4 or even cr1 beasts. But even choosing CR only makes sense in the context of choosing the creatures themselves too, for that same reason.
The "choose any of these options" is a restriction on which creatures you choose after that, not something that implies the DM takes over. Just like with the Animate Objects spell: you choose the targets within the parameters of the spell.
I agree, the retcon was probably made for the two specific situations of conjure woodland Beings and the most powerful summons of Conjure Animals. That is retconning for poor design though, not the original RAW or RAI
The intention seems to be that when a spell offers you an explicit choice, the caster only gets to make that explicit choice (in the case of the conjures, that is the number and CR), whereas spells that offer an implied choice allow the caster to make that choice as well. Certainly, minor illusion would work a lot differently if the caster was only given choice when explicitly told so.
Seconding this. Fire bolt never says the caster gets to choose which creature or object within range they hurl a mote of fire at. Caster choice is implied for any chosen variables that aren't explicitly given to someone else.
What a madhouse this thread is. "Oh no. [Effect] has options, but doesn't say to choose an option."
You thought too deeply that it stopped making sense.
If it doesn't say the DM makes, has, or chooses something then naturally the caster does. 5e requires you to use common sense because they rarely go into detail.
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I've been taking it for granted that the caster chooses the form polymorph takes.
But thinking about the reasons Sage Advice gives for why the DM picks the creatures for Conjure Animals makes me wonder if I've been assuming wrong.
The reason Conjure Animals doesn't let the player pick is because it doesn't explicitly say so. They just get to pick the number of animals and CR.
Polymorph only lets the player choose the target, not even the CR.
Does this mean Polymorph is totally the DM's choice?
hmmmm. Interesting lol
I don't have an answer, which I know is useless here, so basically I'm just commenting to subscribe to the thread because I am SUPER curious as to how others justify either way lol
If that were the case, what use would that spell have? If there is an equal chance that you'd polymorph your enemy into a chicken or into a T-Rex, why would the spell exist? I understand that the spell doesn't outright say the caster chooses the form, but this feels like one of those RAI moments because the alternative makes a fourth-level spell worthless.
So, yes. The caster gets to choose the creature that is polymorphed into.
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The major difference is that the Conjure spells include the term, "The DM has the Creatures' Statistics", while Polymorph doesn't. To my knowledge that was supposed to be what shows that it's the DM that chooses the form of the creatures summoned (even though the language of the spell does not at all make that obvious).
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The SAC entry specifying that Conjure Animals has the DM choose what appears is explicit that the spellcaster chooses one of the listed CR vs Quantity options, and then the DM fulfills that option as the DM sees fit. Assuming this sets precedent, it means Polymorph lets the spellcaster choose the Beast (within the given CR constraints - remember, as with all 5E rules, any time a PC can't do something the rules require them to do without more information, the rule gives the PC that information, so Polymorph getting through the target's save tells the spellcaster the target's CR) and the DM fulfills that choice as the DM sees fit. So, supposing you choose cat, the DM chooses what sort of cat, which is why you can't use Polymorph to disguise yourself as a specific beast - e.g. you can't necessarily turn yourself into a perfect duplicate of the King's Scottish Fold (you can't even necessarily turn yourself into a Scottish Fold, let alone one with markings matching the King's cat).
The same argument could be said about Conjuration spells. If you're banking on 8 wolves and get 8 rats, the spell is basically useless.
I think its a good argument, but they retconned a whole class of spells anyways.
I can sort of see what you mean, but the spell does also give the caster a sample list of a few dozen beasts to choose from as though it is their choice. If we are just going off context clues, it looks like the part about the DM having the statistics just refers to the index in the DM guide having all the beasts from the basic rules.
Except those creatures are specifically called out to be friendly to you or under your control in some way. If you turn yourself into a chicken, stats and all, when you wanted to be a TRex there is nothing you can do really. You've waisted a 4th level spell slot.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
If you turn yourself into a chicken, you at least get a buffer of extra hit points, however small. And it would be pretty twisted for a DM to play that card when you really need something more powerful.
And conjure animals is a 3rd level spell that can also be wasted if you summon chickens. That is the danger of the DM having the discretion.
I mean, you've gotta follow the fiction. This is what you cast when a meddlesome child has wandered into your hut in the woods and won't stop touching your various poultices and tinctures, to make him live as a frog until he's learned his lesson. If it instead could turn him into a monkey, well, that would just make him more destructive, probably. You'd never risk such a thing. So, as a DM, you've gotta ask: Do I want my game to be one where children can get turned into frogs? :P
Yeah, I would never risk turning an annoying child into a creature for whom throwing its own feces is socially acceptable lol
The intention seems to be that when a spell offers you an explicit choice, the caster only gets to make that explicit choice (in the case of the conjures, that is the number and CR), whereas spells that offer an implied choice allow the caster to make that choice as well. Certainly, minor illusion would work a lot differently if the caster was only given choice when explicitly told so.
Your DM is supposed to stick to the maximum CR you choose. Otherwise it makes no sense to let you choose CR at all.
Yes, they have the words "or Lower" in it, that makes less sense.
Polymorph does not grant the "choose any of these options" and it is clearly supposed to be your choice.
Note, the main reason the Conjure type spells do not let you have the choice is because many of the non-beast versions can summon creatures that have abilities that are BETTER than spells of the same level. WotC did not want to have to go through each creature and check for that abuse, so they stop you from making the selection and leave it up to the DM.
The most obvious example is the 4th level Druid Conjure Woodand Beings that can summon Pixies that can cast Polymorph.
There can be some call for wanting lower cr creatures. Flying snakes are arguably far better than many cr 1/4 or even cr1 beasts. But even choosing CR only makes sense in the context of choosing the creatures themselves too, for that same reason.
The "choose any of these options" is a restriction on which creatures you choose after that, not something that implies the DM takes over. Just like with the Animate Objects spell: you choose the targets within the parameters of the spell.
I agree, the retcon was probably made for the two specific situations of conjure woodland Beings and the most powerful summons of Conjure Animals. That is retconning for poor design though, not the original RAW or RAI
Seconding this. Fire bolt never says the caster gets to choose which creature or object within range they hurl a mote of fire at. Caster choice is implied for any chosen variables that aren't explicitly given to someone else.
What a madhouse this thread is. "Oh no. [Effect] has options, but doesn't say to choose an option."
You thought too deeply that it stopped making sense.
If it doesn't say the DM makes, has, or chooses something then naturally the caster does. 5e requires you to use common sense because they rarely go into detail.