the best feat is the Dual Wielder feat +1 AC bonus, wield heavier weapons 1d8 damage instead 1d6 , draw or stow two weapons at once which is pretty awesome which means more damage per attack like if you were a fighter at 11th level you would get 4 attacks plus your modifer on each of them or 6. Im not sure if you get 2 attack per extra attack though.
the best feat is the Dual Wielder feat +1 AC bonus, wield heavier weapons 1d8 damage instead 1d6 , draw or stow two weapons at once which is pretty awesome which means more damage per attack like if you were a fighter at 11th level you would get 4 attacks plus your modifer on each of them or 6. Im not sure if you get 2 attack per extra attack though.
A) completely off topic, B) you only get 1 bonus attack so 3 attacks with the Attack action and 1 bonus attack which isn't changed by dual wielder, and C) Two weapon fighting style adds the damage modifier to the bonus attack not dual wielder. It's possible to get it with the build that you mentioned, but not guaranteed.
yeah but y would you get that feat and not get the two weapon fighting style that adds the damage modifier thats just wasting the feat
and just to get back on target (sorry) the charger feat would be nice if you didn't have to use your action and bonus action it might work for some people if they could bonus action dash instead of using your action to dash you would still be able to get multiattack but it says it has to use your action to dash to get a only +5 to damage which is only one attack or you could get two attacks which will probably be more damage anyway.
yeah but y would you get that feat and not get the two weapon fighting style that adds the damage modifier thats just wasting the feat
and just to get back on target (sorry) the charger feat would be nice if you didn't have to use your action and bonus action it might work for some people if they could bonus action dash instead of using your action to dash you would still be able to get multiattack but it says it has to use your action to dash to get a only +5 to damage which is only one attack or you could get two attacks which will probably be more damage anyway.
I agree about the fighting style generally but there could be instances where you'd prefer something like defensive style over the extra damage.
As for charger, I think that the intent was to give an attack for classes that need to dash to get in place but don't have a bonus attack normally. Rogue and monk have the ability any way with the bonus dash. The way it's written, it's best for a barbarian or fighter that really wants to get in position and make an attack while establishing a choke point. It's not intended for anything but a niche application. With that being said and with few ways to abuse it otherwise, I think that adding a +1 to strength, dexterity, or constitution would make it more worthwhile for the builds that would want it without making it feel like a trap feat 95% of the time. It would still be subpar, but if it was evaluated as a half feat it wouldn't get compared to PAM, GWM, and the like as much and would be a much more worthwhile fear. As a full feat, even discounting the overpowered feats, it's application does feel to limited due to the restriction of needing to dash to get the bonus. Changing it from a dash requirement to moving at least 40 feet with the last 10 in a straight line would leave dash as the most likely application, but open up mobile feat, barbarians with fast movement, monks with increased speed, centaurs, Aarakocra using flight, and longstrider as options to activate it without using your dash. This would make the niche application more broad and allow for thematic uses of the charger beyond bowling some once over or setting up in a choke point.
I can't help but wonder if perhaps the issue is the paradigm by which it's being judged, as from my POV it's more a kin to magical initiate/martial adept/ritual caster then GWM/PAM/Sharpshooter as to me it's value lie in allowing characters access to pseudo-class features as feats instead of having to multi class just to get said feature
I'm amazed that in four pages no one has brought up that Charger shines in chasing situations. Have to Dash just to catch up with someone? Usually you can't attack them, you can only hope for an opportunity attack when they keep running away. Charger gives you twice as many attacks as a regular chaser, and with a damage bonus on top of it.
I'm amazed that in four pages no one has brought up that Charger shines in chasing situations. Have to Dash just to catch up with someone? Usually you can't attack them, you can only hope for an opportunity attack when they keep running away. Charger gives you twice as many attacks as a regular chaser, and with a damage bonus on top of it.
That situation is pretty rare. Also, a ranged attack kind of invalidates that use. Or taking mobile. Or having a longstrider spell, or expeditious retreat. Or slowing the target in anyway.
Charger is basically the least optimal option for that situation, and it’s still really niche.
I was just amazed that it hadn't even been brought up at all. But ranged attacks can't go around corners, and when an average opponent has a speed of 30' your +10' from Mobile or Longstrider won't bridge the distance so you can attack in the same turn (unless you run past your opponent for three turns, but why would they run parallell to you?).
Expeditious Retreat is an excellent spell, and spell that slow opponents are underused so I'd be happy to see them get some use.
No situation in which Charger can accomplish a task is a situation in which something else cannot accomplish the task better. Which is why many people, myself included, tried to rework it to make the feat more broadly useful, because as it stands Charger is so narrowly focused that one could easily go for many months of play without EVER using their feat they paid an invaluable ASI for. It's ludicrous, and Wizards should feel bad about it.
The argument is generally that any attempt to make Charger more broadly applicable while retaining its damage bonus is open to player cheesing for "free" damage boosts on every turn. Frankly, I've stopped buying that argument. Even if one assumes a playstyle/combat style that allows the player to score five 'free' points of damage on every one of their turns...so what? This is at the cost of an ASI, which means better skills and often more damage on every attack, rather than just five once a turn.Even in tier 1 play, where five damage is a really big deal and Variant Humans can be buttholes over their feats...so what? The player is by definition pulling all kinds of wild battlefield movement, investing in a very mobile and showy playstyle, and is probably having a great time with it while entertaining their buddies. Sounds like a win to me.
The argument was not that “any” attempt to make it more applicable was bad, the argument was that 5E very specifically does NOT want feats that just give you + damage, because they become perceived as mandatory and constrict player choices. Charger doesn’t need to be good for everyone, just for characters built to charge around the battlefield. Reworking Charger to make it synergize with ALL Dashes no matter their action type is the solution (something like, when you Dash, you may make one free melee attack with +5 damage after moving at least 10 feet straight towards your target). Reworking Charger to just make it require movement alone is too much, because suddenly EVERY melee character is rewarded for pretending to be a Minotaur.
I was just amazed that it hadn't even been brought up at all. But ranged attacks can't go around corners, and when an average opponent has a speed of 30' your +10' from Mobile or Longstrider won't bridge the distance so you can attack in the same turn (unless you run past your opponent for three turns, but why would they run parallell to you?).
Expeditious Retreat is an excellent spell, and spell that slow opponents are underused so I'd be happy to see them get some use.
That is such a niche situation though, where it’s a maze like environment and the enemy isn’t blocked off by an ally. And between rogues, druids, and spell casters, there are just a ton of other means for catching them that do not require giving up an asi.
maybe the damage should scale somehow. Like, an extra 5 damage per 20 ft in the charge or something. Something to reward its use and make it worthwhile.
I've been playing an arcane trickster with charger/mobile for a year. What really killed charger in my eyes was the sword coast's blade spells. Especially after level 5, there just isn't a situation where charger ever has a use, in comparison.
A barb multiclass like this might be the only scenario where it’s good, since any rogue can pick up one of the blade cantrips and do more damage, potentially even against enemies who are resistant.
It's quite poor on a rogue multiclass though. You can already move with your bonus action and then attack with your main action, so the ability to do it the other way around doesn't net you anything. You can still get the +5 damage, but there's probably a better use for the ASI.
It's quite poor on a rogue multiclass though. You can already move with your bonus action and then attack with your main action, so the ability to do it the other way around doesn't net you anything. You can still get the +5 damage, but there's probably a better use for the ASI.
There are certainly more optimal options. Getting GWM with a Double Bladed Scimitar will grant a power attack option with the sneak attack capable of hitting. As long as you're enraged, you can pull it off just fine with the -5 and would likely be attacking Recklessly to enable sneak attack regardless. It has to strictly be a flavor thing or an instance where the -5 would give a high chance of not succeeding for the additional damage not to be worth it.
Even going with a sword and board build, you would probably be better off using Piercer or Slasher. Without the the dueling fighting style, you're likely not emphasizing damage on favor of control or your emphasizing more consistent damage. Both options help and a Scimitar or Whip can be used with Slasher.
Admittedly, Charger plus Slasher is a nice rescue combination, allowing you to choose to push or limit speed with the same weapon equipped. But without it being a free feat, you'll be tempted to use Charger more than you should to justify having it.
I actually like Charger on a Cleric a little better. Clerics don't get a lot of options to boost their melee damage without getting select subclasses and make respectable off tanks. Being able to dash and attack is an upgrade for them and being able to interpose themselves between an enemy and a squishier ally can be beneficial. The option to push is beneficial for free disengages for those allies. Clerics didn't always have a lot of great options for feats, though Tasha's did add some that would push this down the list. It's still pretty situational and Tasha's did add some valid alternatives. Even Chef could be a decent replacement for charger while having more overall utility.
Ranger is also a reasonable option for Charger, if the character wants to be a melee range character. Without the bonus action dash of the monk or rogue, Ranger is the least mobile of the skirmishers. This gives the Ranger a decent option for mobility, but it's still a question of what are you giving up. It does have a nice interaction with Favored Foe for a melee Ranger, as the hit can get the +5 from charger and the 1d4 from Favored Foe. The limitations of Favored Foe and Extra Attack at 5th will make this more of a thing for Human Variant Rangers, Custom Origin Rangers, and Ranger multiclass that does into a single attack caster before hitting Ranger 5.
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the best feat is the Dual Wielder feat +1 AC bonus, wield heavier weapons 1d8 damage instead 1d6 , draw or stow two weapons at once which is pretty awesome which means more damage per attack like if you were a fighter at 11th level you would get 4 attacks plus your modifer on each of them or 6. Im not sure if you get 2 attack per extra attack though.
A) completely off topic, B) you only get 1 bonus attack so 3 attacks with the Attack action and 1 bonus attack which isn't changed by dual wielder, and C) Two weapon fighting style adds the damage modifier to the bonus attack not dual wielder. It's possible to get it with the build that you mentioned, but not guaranteed.
sorry and thanks
yeah but y would you get that feat and not get the two weapon fighting style that adds the damage modifier thats just wasting the feat
and just to get back on target (sorry) the charger feat would be nice if you didn't have to use your action and bonus action it might work for some people if they could bonus action dash instead of using your action to dash you would still be able to get multiattack but it says it has to use your action to dash to get a only +5 to damage which is only one attack or you could get two attacks which will probably be more damage anyway.
I agree about the fighting style generally but there could be instances where you'd prefer something like defensive style over the extra damage.
As for charger, I think that the intent was to give an attack for classes that need to dash to get in place but don't have a bonus attack normally. Rogue and monk have the ability any way with the bonus dash. The way it's written, it's best for a barbarian or fighter that really wants to get in position and make an attack while establishing a choke point. It's not intended for anything but a niche application. With that being said and with few ways to abuse it otherwise, I think that adding a +1 to strength, dexterity, or constitution would make it more worthwhile for the builds that would want it without making it feel like a trap feat 95% of the time. It would still be subpar, but if it was evaluated as a half feat it wouldn't get compared to PAM, GWM, and the like as much and would be a much more worthwhile fear. As a full feat, even discounting the overpowered feats, it's application does feel to limited due to the restriction of needing to dash to get the bonus. Changing it from a dash requirement to moving at least 40 feet with the last 10 in a straight line would leave dash as the most likely application, but open up mobile feat, barbarians with fast movement, monks with increased speed, centaurs, Aarakocra using flight, and longstrider as options to activate it without using your dash. This would make the niche application more broad and allow for thematic uses of the charger beyond bowling some once over or setting up in a choke point.
A scout Rogue with skirmisher (L3) could find her/him summing up + 5 damage every turn
Also for an Eagle Tótem Barbarian (L3):
- to avoid ranged atracks (str based...)
- to sum +5 damage every turn (at least until L5, then you would have to chose: to charge or extra attack)
I can't help but wonder if perhaps the issue is the paradigm by which it's being judged, as from my POV it's more a kin to magical initiate/martial adept/ritual caster then GWM/PAM/Sharpshooter as to me it's value lie in allowing characters access to pseudo-class features as feats instead of having to multi class just to get said feature
For a rogue who only gets one attack a turn, its a nice increase to base damage.
I'm amazed that in four pages no one has brought up that Charger shines in chasing situations. Have to Dash just to catch up with someone? Usually you can't attack them, you can only hope for an opportunity attack when they keep running away. Charger gives you twice as many attacks as a regular chaser, and with a damage bonus on top of it.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
That situation is pretty rare. Also, a ranged attack kind of invalidates that use. Or taking mobile. Or having a longstrider spell, or expeditious retreat. Or slowing the target in anyway.
Charger is basically the least optimal option for that situation, and it’s still really niche.
I was just amazed that it hadn't even been brought up at all. But ranged attacks can't go around corners, and when an average opponent has a speed of 30' your +10' from Mobile or Longstrider won't bridge the distance so you can attack in the same turn (unless you run past your opponent for three turns, but why would they run parallell to you?).
Expeditious Retreat is an excellent spell, and spell that slow opponents are underused so I'd be happy to see them get some use.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
No situation in which Charger can accomplish a task is a situation in which something else cannot accomplish the task better. Which is why many people, myself included, tried to rework it to make the feat more broadly useful, because as it stands Charger is so narrowly focused that one could easily go for many months of play without EVER using their feat they paid an invaluable ASI for. It's ludicrous, and Wizards should feel bad about it.
The argument is generally that any attempt to make Charger more broadly applicable while retaining its damage bonus is open to player cheesing for "free" damage boosts on every turn. Frankly, I've stopped buying that argument. Even if one assumes a playstyle/combat style that allows the player to score five 'free' points of damage on every one of their turns...so what? This is at the cost of an ASI, which means better skills and often more damage on every attack, rather than just five once a turn.Even in tier 1 play, where five damage is a really big deal and Variant Humans can be buttholes over their feats...so what? The player is by definition pulling all kinds of wild battlefield movement, investing in a very mobile and showy playstyle, and is probably having a great time with it while entertaining their buddies. Sounds like a win to me.
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The argument was not that “any” attempt to make it more applicable was bad, the argument was that 5E very specifically does NOT want feats that just give you + damage, because they become perceived as mandatory and constrict player choices. Charger doesn’t need to be good for everyone, just for characters built to charge around the battlefield. Reworking Charger to make it synergize with ALL Dashes no matter their action type is the solution (something like, when you Dash, you may make one free melee attack with +5 damage after moving at least 10 feet straight towards your target). Reworking Charger to just make it require movement alone is too much, because suddenly EVERY melee character is rewarded for pretending to be a Minotaur.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
That is such a niche situation though, where it’s a maze like environment and the enemy isn’t blocked off by an ally. And between rogues, druids, and spell casters, there are just a ton of other means for catching them that do not require giving up an asi.
maybe the damage should scale somehow. Like, an extra 5 damage per 20 ft in the charge or something. Something to reward its use and make it worthwhile.
You have to use the Dash Action, or at least move 10ft farther than your Normal Move Speed, before they can use the Bonus Action.
The action economy is limited by that.
I've been playing an arcane trickster with charger/mobile for a year. What really killed charger in my eyes was the sword coast's blade spells. Especially after level 5, there just isn't a situation where charger ever has a use, in comparison.
I have recently made use of Charger on a 2 barbarian/10 rogue (swashbuckler). It only seems effective on a high damage, single attack character.
A barb multiclass like this might be the only scenario where it’s good, since any rogue can pick up one of the blade cantrips and do more damage, potentially even against enemies who are resistant.
It's quite poor on a rogue multiclass though. You can already move with your bonus action and then attack with your main action, so the ability to do it the other way around doesn't net you anything. You can still get the +5 damage, but there's probably a better use for the ASI.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
There are certainly more optimal options. Getting GWM with a Double Bladed Scimitar will grant a power attack option with the sneak attack capable of hitting. As long as you're enraged, you can pull it off just fine with the -5 and would likely be attacking Recklessly to enable sneak attack regardless. It has to strictly be a flavor thing or an instance where the -5 would give a high chance of not succeeding for the additional damage not to be worth it.
Even going with a sword and board build, you would probably be better off using Piercer or Slasher. Without the the dueling fighting style, you're likely not emphasizing damage on favor of control or your emphasizing more consistent damage. Both options help and a Scimitar or Whip can be used with Slasher.
Admittedly, Charger plus Slasher is a nice rescue combination, allowing you to choose to push or limit speed with the same weapon equipped. But without it being a free feat, you'll be tempted to use Charger more than you should to justify having it.
I actually like Charger on a Cleric a little better. Clerics don't get a lot of options to boost their melee damage without getting select subclasses and make respectable off tanks. Being able to dash and attack is an upgrade for them and being able to interpose themselves between an enemy and a squishier ally can be beneficial. The option to push is beneficial for free disengages for those allies. Clerics didn't always have a lot of great options for feats, though Tasha's did add some that would push this down the list. It's still pretty situational and Tasha's did add some valid alternatives. Even Chef could be a decent replacement for charger while having more overall utility.
Ranger is also a reasonable option for Charger, if the character wants to be a melee range character. Without the bonus action dash of the monk or rogue, Ranger is the least mobile of the skirmishers. This gives the Ranger a decent option for mobility, but it's still a question of what are you giving up. It does have a nice interaction with Favored Foe for a melee Ranger, as the hit can get the +5 from charger and the 1d4 from Favored Foe. The limitations of Favored Foe and Extra Attack at 5th will make this more of a thing for Human Variant Rangers, Custom Origin Rangers, and Ranger multiclass that does into a single attack caster before hitting Ranger 5.