Is there a correlation between strength checks and the size of the creature who does the check? I haven't found anything on it in the rules, but it makes sense. Else, you can have dumb scenarios, for example: The party has enraged a chicken and an ancient red dragon, and they hide inside a small wooden shack with an old wooden door that require a DC 15 strength check to break. The dragon has a strength score of 30 (mod of +10) and tries to break the door. You would think that the door should break instantly because it is so big it seems it could destroy the shack just by stepping on it, but it actually needs to roll 5 or more to successfully break to the door. Let's say the dragon is having bad luck and roll 1 to 4 multiple times. Meanwhile, the chicken, with a strength score of 1 (mod of -5) (homebrewed. I didn't found an official stat block for a chicken) comes, roll a nat 20 and breaks the door in single try, even though it's tiny and it seems like it should not be able to even damage the door.
If there isn't anything official on this, has anyone made good homebrew rules for this?
There’s no single rule for any and all STR checks based on creature size. It does say that the amount a creature can lift, push, pull, or carry is doubled for each size category above Medium, but those are fixed calculations based on the STR score, not rolls.
Regarding the example you give, that’s where DM curation of who can attempt what rolls comes into play. You don’t want to railroad with it, but if there’s no reason why a given creature or player should be able to succeed in an attempt- particularly when it’s for a physical challenge like this as opposed to something softer like knowledge or socials, don’t be afraid to simply declare it impossible.
An actual check should only be called for if there is a chance to either succeed or to fail. In your scenario I would rule that there is no chance for the dragon to fail so no check is needed, and there is no chance the chicken could succeed so no check is allowed.
Besides, an old wooden shack door would count as a Medium, fragile wooden object with an AC of 15 and only 4-9 hp. That dragon could smash that door with 1 attack, no need to actually open it.
Thank you all for the answers, but I also need a solution for less extreme situations. The example I gave was to show how bad this issue can get. In another version of that example, replace the dragon and the chicken with a bear and a human. The DM would usually set a DC for breaking the door and leave it at that, but it would make sense that the bear, being bigger (and heavier) than the human, would have an advantage in breaking the door compared to the human. Is it reasonable that in this case, making the DC for breaking the door a bit lower for the bear? Or in non-extreame cases like this one, the ability score difference is enough? (although strength score of 19 that the brown bear has is something achievable by humans, while keeping the bear heavier).
Your getting hung up on a strength check to break a door here. As said before, a door is an object and to break an object involves AC and HP. A door would have an AC of 15 and around 4-9hp, so the bear will be much more likely to tear it down quickly than a human. Consider a check with a DC to be for one-and-done things, and AC and hp for methodically destroying something. A bear trying to batter down a door is different to a bear trying to rip it apart - one is a strength check against the hinges and lock, the other is an attack on the doors structure.
The DC of checks is set up based on your DMs estimation of the difficulty, with DC5 being trivial and DC 30 being almost impossible. How likely is it for a dragon to push through a wooden door? How likely is it for the chicken?
This sort of thing can be applied to characters as well. Let's say you're jumping a chasm, and there are two characters - a tabaxi with a +5 in strength, and a gnome with +2 in athletics, because they are proficient. You might have the DC be slightly lower for the gnome, as they are proficient in athletics - the tabaxi is relying on pure strength to jump the gap, the gnome is relying on their earnt skill in jumping. This rewards proficiencies regardless of the modifier, where most people aim instead to be excellent at one thing.
Eh, not sure you’re really supposed to tweak DC based on proficiencies. The DC is the baseline “how likely is this to not work”, and proficiencies are meant to be “how much more likely is this character to succeed over a hypothetical average individual”. The jump itself doesn’t change, which is what the DC represents; the individual’s’ capabilities change, as reflected by the proficiency mod. But that’s just one man’s opinion on how to run them.
The DM can decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result, if judging that size is a determining factor in the outcome.
The STR of a creature is pretty much calculated into its size. At least generally. Your average bear will be stronger than the average Humanoid (human, elf, etc). It’s not perfect but you generally will not see tiny sized creatures in the MM with a high STR score. But you will see higher STR scores on larger creatures.
You decide if a check is even necessary. And as Sposta said above, if you really feel that a creature should be better able to succeed on a check, just give them advantage.
Eh, not sure you’re really supposed to tweak DC based on proficiencies. The DC is the baseline “how likely is this to not work”, and proficiencies are meant to be “how much more likely is this character to succeed over a hypothetical average individual”. The jump itself doesn’t change, which is what the DC represents; the individual’s’ capabilities change, as reflected by the proficiency mod. But that’s just one man’s opinion on how to run them.
I agree mostly, though I do think that there are some things for which the DC is different for different creatures.
Take climbing over a 6ft tall wall. For the 7ft tall goliath, this would be a moderate DC of probably 10, and if they are rubbish at athletics, they will have a hard time of it. For a 3ft gnome, the DC will be higher, because they are trying to climb a wall twice their own height!
"how likely is this to work" can be different based on the individual!
While size has an impact on the average strength of monsters if you use the optional rules in Tashas that is not the case for PCs, the average goliath has the same strength as the average goblin. Even without Tashas the difference is very small
I think it is part of the core design that the random element is much larger than what you would expect from real life. In reality if an average human (str 10) tried to lift 200lb 3 ft in the air they would fail every time and an Olympic weightlifter (str 20) would succeed every time. Proficiency would have some impact on that but it still true in Principle. The same applies to other ability checks, a high level wizard with +10 arcana has a 75% chance of passing a dc 16 check while the Barbarian with 0 arcana has a 25% chance.
To make things "realistic" you could make an ability check equal to your ability SCORE + 1d6 + proficiency but that would make a very poor game.
What the dm can do is ignore the dc and ru.e that some things (like a dragon breaking down a door) happens without a check and other things like the chickens attempt auto fail.
This is why people will often not allow rolls for thing you're not proficient in. A barbarian might have the same intelligence as a Wizard (for some reason) but that does not mean he can identify arcane runes - though he might notice them more easily as runes.
This is why people will often not allow rolls for thing you're not proficient in. A barbarian might have the same intelligence as a Wizard (for some reason) but that does not mean he can identify arcane runes - though he might notice them more easily as runes.
That is exactly the sort of thing I meant when I said some attempts auto fail. Also for ability checks if everyone is making the check it is very likely someone rolls high so I will often limet checks to one person with a second able to help if they are proficient..
Eh, not sure you’re really supposed to tweak DC based on proficiencies. The DC is the baseline “how likely is this to not work”, and proficiencies are meant to be “how much more likely is this character to succeed over a hypothetical average individual”. The jump itself doesn’t change, which is what the DC represents; the individual’s’ capabilities change, as reflected by the proficiency mod. But that’s just one man’s opinion on how to run them.
I agree mostly, though I do think that there are some things for which the DC is different for different creatures.
Take climbing over a 6ft tall wall. For the 7ft tall goliath, this would be a moderate DC of probably 10, and if they are rubbish at athletics, they will have a hard time of it. For a 3ft gnome, the DC will be higher, because they are trying to climb a wall twice their own height!
"how likely is this to work" can be different based on the individual!
I understand the logic of this, but I think it would be better represented by Advantage and Disadvantage. So in that situation, the Goliath would have advantage, representing how much easier it is for them to accomplish the task, especially considering they're already taller than the obstacle. The Gnome, then, would potentially have disadvantage to show how much more effort it takes on their part to accomplish the same task.
I understand the logic of this, but I think it would be better represented by Advantage and Disadvantage. So in that situation, the Goliath would have advantage, representing how much easier it is for them to accomplish the task, especially considering they're already taller than the obstacle. The Gnome, then, would potentially have disadvantage to show how much more effort it takes on their part to accomplish the same task.
I think Tashas was a deliberate move away from this. If the average goliath is stronger than the average gnome should the average gnome be more intelligent to compensate? Wotc were getting a lot of complaints that this encouraged similar opinions comparing different races irl.
The other reason for the change was people felt if they wanted to play a high strength character they were compelled to play a race with a bonus to strength. It might be realistic that a goliath would make a better Barbarian than an elf but people wanted to play elf Barbarians without being penalised to do so.
I'm thinking less about their STR scores than I am just their physical size. Tasha's certainly moved the needle toward homogeny between stats, but it doesn't remove, for example, the fact that small creatures attack with disadvantage if they use a Heavy weapon. Similarly, there might be a thin tunnel that the gnome can just casually stroll through while the Goliath will have to make an acrobatics check to see if they can twist and contort themselves enough to get through... if it's small enough, they might not even get the option at all. A character's height is also used to calculate things like their standing high jump. The Gnome can still be just as strong if the player puts their stats that way, but there's still things that are more or less difficult for creatures based on their size.
A roll is asked only when deemed necessary or fair by the DM.
Out of combat:
If we had a 20str Goliath barbarian with Bear Strength, I would probably just have them force the door open without a check. For a more average but still strong fella, they wouldn't roll for success or failure, but rather how long it takes.
In combat:
Many factors such as pressure and distraction come into play.
Also a single turn is very short in combat, so it's easy to justify a check even for the dragon to see if they can break it with just one action. So in combat the cinematic situation is not just about pure strength.
Is there a correlation between strength checks and the size of the creature who does the check? I haven't found anything on it in the rules, but it makes sense. Else, you can have dumb scenarios, for example: The party has enraged a chicken and an ancient red dragon, and they hide inside a small wooden shack with an old wooden door that require a DC 15 strength check to break. The dragon has a strength score of 30 (mod of +10) and tries to break the door. You would think that the door should break instantly because it is so big it seems it could destroy the shack just by stepping on it, but it actually needs to roll 5 or more to successfully break to the door. Let's say the dragon is having bad luck and roll 1 to 4 multiple times. Meanwhile, the chicken, with a strength score of 1 (mod of -5) (homebrewed. I didn't found an official stat block for a chicken) comes, roll a nat 20 and breaks the door in single try, even though it's tiny and it seems like it should not be able to even damage the door.
If there isn't anything official on this, has anyone made good homebrew rules for this?
There’s no single rule for any and all STR checks based on creature size. It does say that the amount a creature can lift, push, pull, or carry is doubled for each size category above Medium, but those are fixed calculations based on the STR score, not rolls.
Regarding the example you give, that’s where DM curation of who can attempt what rolls comes into play. You don’t want to railroad with it, but if there’s no reason why a given creature or player should be able to succeed in an attempt- particularly when it’s for a physical challenge like this as opposed to something softer like knowledge or socials, don’t be afraid to simply declare it impossible.
An actual check should only be called for if there is a chance to either succeed or to fail. In your scenario I would rule that there is no chance for the dragon to fail so no check is needed, and there is no chance the chicken could succeed so no check is allowed.
Besides, an old wooden shack door would count as a Medium, fragile wooden object with an AC of 15 and only 4-9 hp. That dragon could smash that door with 1 attack, no need to actually open it.
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Thank you all for the answers, but I also need a solution for less extreme situations. The example I gave was to show how bad this issue can get. In another version of that example, replace the dragon and the chicken with a bear and a human. The DM would usually set a DC for breaking the door and leave it at that, but it would make sense that the bear, being bigger (and heavier) than the human, would have an advantage in breaking the door compared to the human. Is it reasonable that in this case, making the DC for breaking the door a bit lower for the bear? Or in non-extreame cases like this one, the ability score difference is enough? (although strength score of 19 that the brown bear has is something achievable by humans, while keeping the bear heavier).
The game presumes that the Str score difference is enough, but if you want to just give the bear advantage on the check.
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Your getting hung up on a strength check to break a door here. As said before, a door is an object and to break an object involves AC and HP. A door would have an AC of 15 and around 4-9hp, so the bear will be much more likely to tear it down quickly than a human. Consider a check with a DC to be for one-and-done things, and AC and hp for methodically destroying something. A bear trying to batter down a door is different to a bear trying to rip it apart - one is a strength check against the hinges and lock, the other is an attack on the doors structure.
The DC of checks is set up based on your DMs estimation of the difficulty, with DC5 being trivial and DC 30 being almost impossible. How likely is it for a dragon to push through a wooden door? How likely is it for the chicken?
This sort of thing can be applied to characters as well. Let's say you're jumping a chasm, and there are two characters - a tabaxi with a +5 in strength, and a gnome with +2 in athletics, because they are proficient. You might have the DC be slightly lower for the gnome, as they are proficient in athletics - the tabaxi is relying on pure strength to jump the gap, the gnome is relying on their earnt skill in jumping. This rewards proficiencies regardless of the modifier, where most people aim instead to be excellent at one thing.
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Eh, not sure you’re really supposed to tweak DC based on proficiencies. The DC is the baseline “how likely is this to not work”, and proficiencies are meant to be “how much more likely is this character to succeed over a hypothetical average individual”. The jump itself doesn’t change, which is what the DC represents; the individual’s’ capabilities change, as reflected by the proficiency mod. But that’s just one man’s opinion on how to run them.
The DM can decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result, if judging that size is a determining factor in the outcome.
The STR of a creature is pretty much calculated into its size. At least generally. Your average bear will be stronger than the average Humanoid (human, elf, etc). It’s not perfect but you generally will not see tiny sized creatures in the MM with a high STR score. But you will see higher STR scores on larger creatures.
You decide if a check is even necessary. And as Sposta said above, if you really feel that a creature should be better able to succeed on a check, just give them advantage.
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I agree mostly, though I do think that there are some things for which the DC is different for different creatures.
Take climbing over a 6ft tall wall. For the 7ft tall goliath, this would be a moderate DC of probably 10, and if they are rubbish at athletics, they will have a hard time of it. For a 3ft gnome, the DC will be higher, because they are trying to climb a wall twice their own height!
"how likely is this to work" can be different based on the individual!
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While size has an impact on the average strength of monsters if you use the optional rules in Tashas that is not the case for PCs, the average goliath has the same strength as the average goblin. Even without Tashas the difference is very small
I think it is part of the core design that the random element is much larger than what you would expect from real life. In reality if an average human (str 10) tried to lift 200lb 3 ft in the air they would fail every time and an Olympic weightlifter (str 20) would succeed every time. Proficiency would have some impact on that but it still true in Principle. The same applies to other ability checks, a high level wizard with +10 arcana has a 75% chance of passing a dc 16 check while the Barbarian with 0 arcana has a 25% chance.
To make things "realistic" you could make an ability check equal to your ability SCORE + 1d6 + proficiency but that would make a very poor game.
What the dm can do is ignore the dc and ru.e that some things (like a dragon breaking down a door) happens without a check and other things like the chickens attempt auto fail.
This is why people will often not allow rolls for thing you're not proficient in. A barbarian might have the same intelligence as a Wizard (for some reason) but that does not mean he can identify arcane runes - though he might notice them more easily as runes.
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That is exactly the sort of thing I meant when I said some attempts auto fail. Also for ability checks if everyone is making the check it is very likely someone rolls high so I will often limet checks to one person with a second able to help if they are proficient..
I understand the logic of this, but I think it would be better represented by Advantage and Disadvantage. So in that situation, the Goliath would have advantage, representing how much easier it is for them to accomplish the task, especially considering they're already taller than the obstacle. The Gnome, then, would potentially have disadvantage to show how much more effort it takes on their part to accomplish the same task.
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I think Tashas was a deliberate move away from this. If the average goliath is stronger than the average gnome should the average gnome be more intelligent to compensate? Wotc were getting a lot of complaints that this encouraged similar opinions comparing different races irl.
The other reason for the change was people felt if they wanted to play a high strength character they were compelled to play a race with a bonus to strength. It might be realistic that a goliath would make a better Barbarian than an elf but people wanted to play elf Barbarians without being penalised to do so.
Ne reason
I'm thinking less about their STR scores than I am just their physical size. Tasha's certainly moved the needle toward homogeny between stats, but it doesn't remove, for example, the fact that small creatures attack with disadvantage if they use a Heavy weapon. Similarly, there might be a thin tunnel that the gnome can just casually stroll through while the Goliath will have to make an acrobatics check to see if they can twist and contort themselves enough to get through... if it's small enough, they might not even get the option at all. A character's height is also used to calculate things like their standing high jump. The Gnome can still be just as strong if the player puts their stats that way, but there's still things that are more or less difficult for creatures based on their size.
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A roll is asked only when deemed necessary or fair by the DM.
Out of combat:
If we had a 20str Goliath barbarian with Bear Strength, I would probably just have them force the door open without a check. For a more average but still strong fella, they wouldn't roll for success or failure, but rather how long it takes.
In combat:
Many factors such as pressure and distraction come into play.
Also a single turn is very short in combat, so it's easy to justify a check even for the dragon to see if they can break it with just one action. So in combat the cinematic situation is not just about pure strength.
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I have been known to call for an unexpected check on this sort of thing too:
"My wizard wants to kick the door down!"
"What's your strength?"
"...8"
"Ok, roll me a wisdom check."
"Not strength? ok, that's an 18"
"You kick the door once, and realise that it is not going to happen."
(a low roll might have them convinced the door is giving way, and making a fair bit of noise as they do so)
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