Certain social spells without obvious physical consequences should be able to conceal their casting or they essentially become worthless.
On the other hand, if casting can be concealed then counterspell becomes much less useful.
Which is why I think you should have a chance, not a guarantee that you could conceal it. The subtle metamagic is still powerful in that it bypasses gags and silence, as well as guaranteeing nondetection where other casters take a risk. It seems to completely neuter the social use of magic outside of very strict situations where only your target is present if the casting is always obvious.
A little late to this post but I offer this spin for verbal and somatic components. The right words and gestures must be made, but that doesn't mean they have to be huge sweeping gestures and loud powerful words. Evocations may be that way but I imagine things like illusion and enchantment to be more subtle. Obviously, not as unnoticeable as with the subtle spell metamagic but a whispered phrase and sweep of the hand or fingers, why not? So with the example, "imagine you're sitting on a throne," whisper* "procidat deceptionem", and when you sweep you hand towards the spot your fingers flick and swirl tracing the shape of magical runes or whatever and poof, the throne appears.
A little late to this post but I offer this spin for verbal and somatic components. The right words and gestures must be made, but that doesn't mean they have to be huge sweeping gestures and loud powerful words. Evocations may be that way but I imagine things like illusion and enchantment to be more subtle. Obviously, not as unnoticeable as with the subtle spell metamagic but a whispered phrase and sweep of the hand or fingers, why not? So with the example, "imagine you're sitting on a throne," whisper* "procidat deceptionem", and when you sweep you hand towards the spot your fingers flick and swirl tracing the shape of magical runes or whatever and poof, the throne appears.
By the book, the motions for all somatic spells are delicate enough that you can't perform them while holding something in that hand without special training. (unless the thing you're holding is part of the spell, such as material components or a focus) Verbal components require certain tones and resonances, meaning that while you don't have to be particularly loud, you can't whisper.
Now if you want to houserule otherwise, that's fine, just be aware that you're weakening subtle spell and increasing the power of all casters by doing so.
And who decides how large and grand those gestures need to be? Who decides how loud and obvious the tones and resonances must be? At most games I've seen, the player. A DM could disagree and rule otherwise but like I said in my post, illusion and enchantment magic doesn't feel like the large and loud type of components. Fireball, cone of cold, meteor swarm, yeah you are probably loud and clear with grand sweeping gestures, but things like silence, dream, or animal friendship? I picture those components being more, for lack of a better word, subtle. "As the druid approaches the wild boar, one hand presenting the morsel of food component, the other gestures in the shape a druidic runes as he whispers the magical incantation." Oorrrr...."the druid approaches the wild boar, maintaining the proper tone and resonances of the incantation, hands shifting and contorting like a naruto wannabe."
I didn't say it had to be loud, but you can't control your tone and get resonance while whispering. So you present the morel of food, make the shapes of druidic runes and speak softly to the creature. It's not loud and flashy, but its enough that an untrained PC with average intelligence would be able to recognize that a spell was being cast and have a 1/4 chance of identifying the specific spell. It's entirely up to the DM how much that truth reflects on the rest of society, or indeed, if they want to change it so that isn't the case. However, it should be recognized that changing the way magic works in such a way weakens subtle spell and strengthens casters in general, who rarely need the help.
The movie Onward gives some interesting examples of components. The somatic components are more limited as there is a staff that provides a material component, but it still has to be held just so. It is only one interpretation of how components can be handled, but DMs (and players) that are inexperienced can use it for inspiration. The rules are open enough that specifics can be up to the DM and player.
Something that might be considered is that intelligence casters are using their intellect to cast their spells and might therefore be more formulaic in their casting practices, mimicking the same gestures and tones exactly each time. Wisdom casters would likely find it wise to do the same thing, but only because it could be dangerous to change things up too much.
Bards and Warlocks are charisma casters but they've still learned their magic from other sources: bards are more like intellect casters in their learning approach while Warlocks are more like wisdom casters in that they've been given it from another source (Paladins are in this boat too).
Sorcerers are the lone class that gets magic innately and it stands to reason that they would be more willing to experiment with it more, especially since they are less likely to have a word of caution about doing something that might backfire.
Nothing RAW saying that you have to use any of that while formulating the rules of magic for your campaign, just food for thought.
I didn't say it had to be loud, but you can't control your tone and get resonance while whispering. So you present the morel of food, make the shapes of druidic runes and speak softly to the creature. It's not loud and flashy, but its enough that an untrained PC with average intelligence would be able to recognize that a spell was being cast and have a 1/4 chance of identifying the specific spell. It's entirely up to the DM how much that truth reflects on the rest of society, or indeed, if they want to change it so that isn't the case. However, it should be recognized that changing the way magic works in such a way weakens subtle spell and strengthens casters in general, who rarely need the help.
Without changing anything, the rules you're referring to from Xanathar's also mean that subtle spell is usually a waste of time, because anyone seeing you contact the M component gets to roll the usual identification check, meaning they must realize a spell is being cast.
I didn't say it had to be loud, but you can't control your tone and get resonance while whispering. So you present the morel of food, make the shapes of druidic runes and speak softly to the creature. It's not loud and flashy, but its enough that an untrained PC with average intelligence would be able to recognize that a spell was being cast and have a 1/4 chance of identifying the specific spell. It's entirely up to the DM how much that truth reflects on the rest of society, or indeed, if they want to change it so that isn't the case. However, it should be recognized that changing the way magic works in such a way weakens subtle spell and strengthens casters in general, who rarely need the help.
Without changing anything, the rules you're referring to from Xanathar's also mean that subtle spell is usually a waste of time, because anyone seeing you contact the M component gets to roll the usual identification check, meaning they must realize a spell is being cast.
Personally I don't consider 40~% of spells going undetected as a waste of time, but everyone's mileage may vary.
Personally I don't consider 40~% of spells going undetected as a waste of time, but everyone's mileage may vary.
100% of spells with an M component go detected after applying Subtle Spell to them if you cast them while visually observed, which is what I actually said in my post.
A little late to this post but I offer this spin for verbal and somatic components. The right words and gestures must be made, but that doesn't mean they have to be huge sweeping gestures and loud powerful words. Evocations may be that way but I imagine things like illusion and enchantment to be more subtle. Obviously, not as unnoticeable as with the subtle spell metamagic but a whispered phrase and sweep of the hand or fingers, why not? So with the example, "imagine you're sitting on a throne," whisper* "procidat deceptionem", and when you sweep you hand towards the spot your fingers flick and swirl tracing the shape of magical runes or whatever and poof, the throne appears.
By the book, the motions for all somatic spells are delicate enough that you can't perform them while holding something in that hand without special training. (unless the thing you're holding is part of the spell, such as material components or a focus) Verbal components require certain tones and resonances, meaning that while you don't have to be particularly loud, you can't whisper.
Now if you want to houserule otherwise, that's fine, just be aware that you're weakening subtle spell and increasing the power of all casters by doing so.
I agree with this to the extent that a player shouldn't get a benefit just from describing their casting a certain way or arguing in favor of X spell being difficult to spot.
However if a caster has invested in (i.e. proficiency with) deception, stealth, sleight of hand, performance or another skill that makes sense in the context of the moment, I might let a good check alter how the casting is perceived.
While you are correct that it weakens subtle spell, I don't think it's controversial to assert that sorcerers and the metamagic system are not some of the best mechanics in 5e. Rather in bending the whole system in an attempt to keep one mechanic relevant, it might be a better idea to buff that mechanic or drop it as a basis of comparison. I love Subtle Spell, but making it compete with things like Quickened and Twinned is just straight-up bad design that has even been somewhat retconned for the Aberrant Mind subclass.
And while I agree that we don't need to increase the power of casters, I think many of the examples where this works are situations where the whole party is benefitting from the casting. Maybe the fighter just wants to move on to the next combat. Maybe the rogue can take advantage of the mark once the spell has taken effect. At any rate, I've certainly been on the other extreme of things where just trying to Prestidigitate my sour small-town ale into something drinkable resulted in almost getting pincushioned by the paranoid town guard. There is a point where enforcing this stuff too harshly just feels stifling and antagonistic.
I run a low magic setting. Common folk don't know much about spells and such, but they do know they exist. At the least, they are awed by it, and also somewhat fearful. Usually, someone speaking words in a normal tone of voice that they do not understand scares them a little. Seeing them moving their hands around or making distinctive little gestures kind of confirms their suspicions, and if the person they are watching has something in their other hand that they are holding or messing around with, they panic.
Player characters have a lot more options and know a great deal more about magic in general and may even be casters themselves. They see someone casting a spell, they have good odds of noticing. A player character hiding what they are doing is something Xanathar's covers. As far as I am concerned, the moment the Silent Image spell was cast and the throne created was pointed at, some of the audience would have run away screaming in terror. This is where things like Subtle Spell come in pretty handy. All waving around an odd bit of something around or touching an odd looking item would do is raise some eyebrows. Casting Silent Image with Subtle Spell really does allow you to create an image silently.
However if a caster has invested in (i.e. proficiency with) deception, stealth, sleight of hand, performance or another skill that makes sense in the context of the moment, I might let a good check alter how the casting is perceived.
Yes, I agree - and I think this should swing the other way, too. Deafened is a needlessly weak condition, given how little it does and given how we know V components are described as working. I've been contemplating this as a fix, borrowing heavily from the Xanathar's rules for the Arcana DC to identify a cast spell:
M components are observed the same way S components are, for all purposes. This includes letting Subtle spell hide the M component of spells - you still need the component on your person, but you don't need to physically touch it, so there's nothing to observe.
Neither component makes sound, so Stealth just works normally on it - if you can't be seen because you hid successfully, the S and M components can't be seen.
Just as Stealth opposes Perception to try and see you use an S or M component, you can use passive Sleight of Hand against Insight or Arcana (observer's choice) to hide your hand movements as something else - an observer sees your hand movements, but they don't look like spellcasting.
You automatically fail to cast any spell with an S or M component while blinded unless your passive Sleight of Hand is at least 10 + Spell Level.
Just as Stealth opposes Perception to try and see you use an S or M component, you can use passive Performance against Insight or Arcana (observer's choice) to "hide" a V component - an observer hears you singing a song, but it doesn't sound like spellcasting.
You automatically fail to cast any spell with a V component while deafened unless your passive Performance is at least 10 + Spell Level.
To be clear, for 2 and 3 above, an observer rolls 1 check of their choice and compares to both passive numbers to see what they do or do not realize is spellcasting.
It has to be loud enough that you can control pitch and resonance. That's basically soft voice and louder. Whispering is right on out. Whispering is specifically talking without resonance. Anyone even sorta close would be able to hear it, unless there was a TON of other noise drowning it out or something. And visually? You gotta have a hand free for somatic components, so that hand is doing something weird. Will they know what it all means? I think that depends on the observer and what they would know, so well into setting specific differences, and DM purview there.
As for subtle spell and material components... idk how RAW this is but I handwave it. If you're casting a subtle spell, it is just subtle. I mean, maybe someone might have a chance at realizing you're up to no good with that ball of bat guano and sulfur you're pulling out. But that'd just be because they recognize the components not they recognize the casting of the spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Which is why I think you should have a chance, not a guarantee that you could conceal it. The subtle metamagic is still powerful in that it bypasses gags and silence, as well as guaranteeing nondetection where other casters take a risk. It seems to completely neuter the social use of magic outside of very strict situations where only your target is present if the casting is always obvious.
A little late to this post but I offer this spin for verbal and somatic components. The right words and gestures must be made, but that doesn't mean they have to be huge sweeping gestures and loud powerful words. Evocations may be that way but I imagine things like illusion and enchantment to be more subtle. Obviously, not as unnoticeable as with the subtle spell metamagic but a whispered phrase and sweep of the hand or fingers, why not? So with the example, "imagine you're sitting on a throne," whisper* "procidat deceptionem", and when you sweep you hand towards the spot your fingers flick and swirl tracing the shape of magical runes or whatever and poof, the throne appears.
By the book, the motions for all somatic spells are delicate enough that you can't perform them while holding something in that hand without special training. (unless the thing you're holding is part of the spell, such as material components or a focus) Verbal components require certain tones and resonances, meaning that while you don't have to be particularly loud, you can't whisper.
Now if you want to houserule otherwise, that's fine, just be aware that you're weakening subtle spell and increasing the power of all casters by doing so.
And who decides how large and grand those gestures need to be? Who decides how loud and obvious the tones and resonances must be? At most games I've seen, the player. A DM could disagree and rule otherwise but like I said in my post, illusion and enchantment magic doesn't feel like the large and loud type of components. Fireball, cone of cold, meteor swarm, yeah you are probably loud and clear with grand sweeping gestures, but things like silence, dream, or animal friendship? I picture those components being more, for lack of a better word, subtle. "As the druid approaches the wild boar, one hand presenting the morsel of food component, the other gestures in the shape a druidic runes as he whispers the magical incantation." Oorrrr...."the druid approaches the wild boar, maintaining the proper tone and resonances of the incantation, hands shifting and contorting like a naruto wannabe."
I didn't say it had to be loud, but you can't control your tone and get resonance while whispering. So you present the morel of food, make the shapes of druidic runes and speak softly to the creature. It's not loud and flashy, but its enough that an untrained PC with average intelligence would be able to recognize that a spell was being cast and have a 1/4 chance of identifying the specific spell. It's entirely up to the DM how much that truth reflects on the rest of society, or indeed, if they want to change it so that isn't the case. However, it should be recognized that changing the way magic works in such a way weakens subtle spell and strengthens casters in general, who rarely need the help.
The movie Onward gives some interesting examples of components. The somatic components are more limited as there is a staff that provides a material component, but it still has to be held just so. It is only one interpretation of how components can be handled, but DMs (and players) that are inexperienced can use it for inspiration. The rules are open enough that specifics can be up to the DM and player.
Something that might be considered is that intelligence casters are using their intellect to cast their spells and might therefore be more formulaic in their casting practices, mimicking the same gestures and tones exactly each time. Wisdom casters would likely find it wise to do the same thing, but only because it could be dangerous to change things up too much.
Bards and Warlocks are charisma casters but they've still learned their magic from other sources: bards are more like intellect casters in their learning approach while Warlocks are more like wisdom casters in that they've been given it from another source (Paladins are in this boat too).
Sorcerers are the lone class that gets magic innately and it stands to reason that they would be more willing to experiment with it more, especially since they are less likely to have a word of caution about doing something that might backfire.
Nothing RAW saying that you have to use any of that while formulating the rules of magic for your campaign, just food for thought.
Without changing anything, the rules you're referring to from Xanathar's also mean that subtle spell is usually a waste of time, because anyone seeing you contact the M component gets to roll the usual identification check, meaning they must realize a spell is being cast.
Personally I don't consider 40~% of spells going undetected as a waste of time, but everyone's mileage may vary.
100% of spells with an M component go detected after applying Subtle Spell to them if you cast them while visually observed, which is what I actually said in my post.
I agree with this to the extent that a player shouldn't get a benefit just from describing their casting a certain way or arguing in favor of X spell being difficult to spot.
However if a caster has invested in (i.e. proficiency with) deception, stealth, sleight of hand, performance or another skill that makes sense in the context of the moment, I might let a good check alter how the casting is perceived.
While you are correct that it weakens subtle spell, I don't think it's controversial to assert that sorcerers and the metamagic system are not some of the best mechanics in 5e. Rather in bending the whole system in an attempt to keep one mechanic relevant, it might be a better idea to buff that mechanic or drop it as a basis of comparison. I love Subtle Spell, but making it compete with things like Quickened and Twinned is just straight-up bad design that has even been somewhat retconned for the Aberrant Mind subclass.
And while I agree that we don't need to increase the power of casters, I think many of the examples where this works are situations where the whole party is benefitting from the casting. Maybe the fighter just wants to move on to the next combat. Maybe the rogue can take advantage of the mark once the spell has taken effect. At any rate, I've certainly been on the other extreme of things where just trying to Prestidigitate my sour small-town ale into something drinkable resulted in almost getting pincushioned by the paranoid town guard. There is a point where enforcing this stuff too harshly just feels stifling and antagonistic.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I run a low magic setting. Common folk don't know much about spells and such, but they do know they exist. At the least, they are awed by it, and also somewhat fearful. Usually, someone speaking words in a normal tone of voice that they do not understand scares them a little. Seeing them moving their hands around or making distinctive little gestures kind of confirms their suspicions, and if the person they are watching has something in their other hand that they are holding or messing around with, they panic.
Player characters have a lot more options and know a great deal more about magic in general and may even be casters themselves. They see someone casting a spell, they have good odds of noticing. A player character hiding what they are doing is something Xanathar's covers. As far as I am concerned, the moment the Silent Image spell was cast and the throne created was pointed at, some of the audience would have run away screaming in terror. This is where things like Subtle Spell come in pretty handy. All waving around an odd bit of something around or touching an odd looking item would do is raise some eyebrows. Casting Silent Image with Subtle Spell really does allow you to create an image silently.
<Insert clever signature here>
Yes, I agree - and I think this should swing the other way, too. Deafened is a needlessly weak condition, given how little it does and given how we know V components are described as working. I've been contemplating this as a fix, borrowing heavily from the Xanathar's rules for the Arcana DC to identify a cast spell:
It has to be loud enough that you can control pitch and resonance. That's basically soft voice and louder. Whispering is right on out. Whispering is specifically talking without resonance. Anyone even sorta close would be able to hear it, unless there was a TON of other noise drowning it out or something. And visually? You gotta have a hand free for somatic components, so that hand is doing something weird. Will they know what it all means? I think that depends on the observer and what they would know, so well into setting specific differences, and DM purview there.
As for subtle spell and material components... idk how RAW this is but I handwave it. If you're casting a subtle spell, it is just subtle. I mean, maybe someone might have a chance at realizing you're up to no good with that ball of bat guano and sulfur you're pulling out. But that'd just be because they recognize the components not they recognize the casting of the spell.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.