Lets say you're fighting something with a 10ft reach. You close the gap and get within 5ft of it and grapple it. Then it grapples you on its turn. Now you're both grappling each other.
Is the creature able to simply move you 5ft away to break your grapple instantly because it has reach? As in, no contest for the grapple, it just uses forced movement to break your grapple because it has longer arms than you.
As per a post I made below, updating it here for new readers to see as well.
Okay, so let me put together the situation more clearly for everyone.
We were fighting a Grell. I ran my 10ft, high jumped from a ledge, landed on it and grappled it, now being 5ft from it, practically riding on top of the thing.
Ignoring the fact my weight is 1.5x the Grell's carrying capacity, hoping that would somehow move it closer to allies but that was ruled as a no. Fair enough, I suppose, it is still technically able to lift more than that but at the cost of only having 5ft of movement a turn (which is now 0ft from the grapple).
My issue began when the creature landed an attack on me, causing it to use its auto grapple feature, and then with that in mind, us both grappling one another, it used it's 10ft reach to.. move me 5ft away, breaking my grapple and then releasing its grapple, dropping me to the floor to take fall damage. I had no contest of the grapple, wasn't shoved, no movement was expended (even though we'd both have 0ft of movement). Not even the Grell moved. It stayed in place and moved me.
I feel like this wasn't following the rules of the game. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding the rules correctly as some others I spoke to disagreed with me, while others agreed. Been a mixed bag, was hoping for clarification.
Is the creature able to simply move you 5ft away to break your grapple instantly because it has reach?
If you are both grappled then you both have 0 movement speed. It cannot move away unless it first breaks your grapple.
Now let's say it grapples you and then uses a separate Action to break your grapple (might take something like action surge or haste to pull this off but it's possible), then it could move but if it ends it turn more than 5 feet away its grapple on you will break. Long-limbed traits only function on your turn as part of an attack, they do not allow you to hold someone in a grapple 10 feet away.
But what if they lack elbows due to said 'arm' being a tentacle? Hard to armbar that.
Rules As Written doesn't distinguish between arms, tentacles, body shape, weight, etc, with the exception that some things are just completely Immune to the grappled condition (usually thinks like ghosts, water/fire elementals, stuff you obviously just can't grab and hold onto). If you are grappled then you just can't move period until you escape the grapple.
Is the creature able to simply move you 5ft away to break your grapple instantly because it has reach? As in, no contest for the grapple, it just uses forced movement to break your grapple because it has longer arms than you.
Moving you away would require a Shove, an opposed roll.
If the attempt succeeded, then yes it would break your grapple on the creature while maintaining its grapple on you.
Long-limbed traits only function on your turn as part of an attack, they do not allow you to hold someone in a grapple 10 feet away.
Actually, the rules for grapple say otherwise. If you have a reach of 10 feet you can grapple a creature that is 10 feet away and you would remain 10 feet apart while that creature is grappled.
However, to answer the question from the OP, the rules also indicate that you cannot simply move the grappled creature around within your reach for free. The only way to move the grappled creature that you are grappling is to move yourself:
When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you
Moving you away would require a Shove, an opposed roll.
Hmm, that is interesting. Are you allowed to break out of a grapple by successfully shoving a creature? How do these rules interact?
Typically, to escape a grapple, we use this rule:
Escaping a Grapple. A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Strength (Athletics) check.
This would result in both creatures remaining in their current locations but no longer grappled.
However, there is also this rule within the grappled condition itself:
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
Does Shove create such an effect? According to the rules for Shove:
If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
This seems to be forced movement which satisfies that method of ending the grappled condition specified within the grappled condition itself. So, yes, this would work to break the grapple!
The only remaining question is this: If you have a reach of 10 feet but grapple a creature at 5 feet -- if an effect moves that creature to a location that is 10 feet away, is your grapple maintained? It would seem that the answer is yes.
Also, it might be interesting to note that when you move you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, which means that if you grapple a creature at 10 feet you can choose to close that distance and then maintain a 5 foot grapple or vice versa. You can also do things such as keep the grappled creature at its current location while walking around to the other side of it while still maintaining your grapple. The "opposite" thing doesn't work though -- you cannot remain still while forcing the grappled creature to move to a different location within your reach for free.
Is the creature able to simply move you 5ft away to break your grapple instantly because it has reach?
If you are both grappled then you both have 0 movement speed. It cannot move away unless it first breaks your grapple.
Now let's say it grapples you and then uses a separate Action to break your grapple (might take something like action surge or haste to pull this off but it's possible), then it could move but if it ends it turn more than 5 feet away its grapple on you will break. Long-limbed traits only function on your turn as part of an attack, they do not allow you to hold someone in a grapple 10 feet away.
Okay, so let me put together the situation more clearly for everyone.
We were fighting a Grell. I ran my 10ft, high jumped from a ledge, landed on it and grappled it, now being 5ft from it, practically riding on top of the thing.
Ignoring the fact my weight is 1.5x the Grell's carrying capacity, hoping that would somehow move it closer to allies but that was ruled as a no. Fair enough, I suppose, it is still technically able to lift more than that but at the cost of only having 5ft of movement a turn (which is now 0ft from the grapple).
My issue began when the creature landed an attack on me, causing it to use its auto grapple feature, and then with that in mind, us both grappling one another, it used it's 10ft reach to.. move me 5ft away, breaking my grapple and then releasing its grapple, dropping me to the floor to take fall damage. I had no contest of the grapple, wasn't shoved, no movement was expended (even though we'd both have 0ft of movement). Not even the Grell moved. It stayed in place and moved me.
I feel like this wasn't following the rules of the game. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding the rules correctly as some others I spoke to disagreed with me, while others agreed. Been a mixed bag, was hoping for clarification.
But what if they lack elbows due to said 'arm' being a tentacle? Hard to armbar that.
Rules As Written doesn't distinguish between arms, tentacles, body shape, weight, etc, with the exception that some things are just completely Immune to the grappled condition (usually thinks like ghosts, water/fire elementals, stuff you obviously just can't grab and hold onto). If you are grappled then you just can't move period until you escape the grapple.
My bad, that response was in jest of the armbar thing. Probably should have quoted them and made the joke more obvious in text.
A grappled creature's speed is 0 so it cannot move and drag or carry another creature it is also grappling while using it's speed. It could theorically do so if it could move without using it's speed, such as an Orc's Aggressive or Harengon's Rabbit Hop trait for exemple.
Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
A grappled creature's speed is 0 so it cannot move and drag or carry another creature it is also grappling while using it's speed. It could theorically do so if it could move without using it's speed, such as an Orc's Aggressive or Harengon's Rabbit Hop trait for exemple.
Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
So, I was right in my interpretation that it would have had to contest my grapple to move/drop me?
So, I was right in my interpretation that it would have had to contest my grapple to move/drop me?
No it would automatically end if no longer within reach of the grappler;
Grapped: The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
I originally used incorrect exemples as they refer to speed somehow. I try thinking of another exemple of self movement without speed, perhaps more common one would be off turn, like if another creature used Bait & Switch Maneuver on it i can't think of one at the moment.
Yes, you were correct. The rules were not followed in your game.
If Creature #1 has a reach of 10 feet and successfully grapples Creature #2 who is 5 feet away, Creature #1 can NOT "use its 10 foot reach" to move Creature #2 5 feet such that it is now 10 feet away instead of 5 feet away. That is against the rules. In order to accomplish this, the Creature #1 would have to move itself 5 feet while choosing to not drag Creature #2 with it, but while maintaining the grapple. However, in your situation that would be impossible since Creature #1 is also currently grappled and thus effectively has 0 speed (it cannot move to a new location).
The interesting thing is that I'm this situation, if the Grill used it's action to shove your character 5ft, then it would break your character's grapple, but your character would still be within the 10ft reach of the Grell, so the 5ft shove wouldn't break the Grell's grapple.
I appreciate that this isn't what happened because there was no contested check on the Grell's turn, but I think it's interesting because - if this happened - your character would still be grappled by the Grell but, with speed of 0ft, your character wouldn't be able to close the distance to the Grell...
It's actually really unfortunate that the Grell has the hover trait; grappling flying creatures to reduce their speed to 0ft or knocking them prone both result in lovely amounts of falling damage :-)
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Lets say you're fighting something with a 10ft reach.
You close the gap and get within 5ft of it and grapple it.
Then it grapples you on its turn. Now you're both grappling each other.
Is the creature able to simply move you 5ft away to break your grapple instantly because it has reach? As in, no contest for the grapple, it just uses forced movement to break your grapple because it has longer arms than you.
As per a post I made below, updating it here for new readers to see as well.
Okay, so let me put together the situation more clearly for everyone.
We were fighting a Grell. I ran my 10ft, high jumped from a ledge, landed on it and grappled it, now being 5ft from it, practically riding on top of the thing.
Ignoring the fact my weight is 1.5x the Grell's carrying capacity, hoping that would somehow move it closer to allies but that was ruled as a no. Fair enough, I suppose, it is still technically able to lift more than that but at the cost of only having 5ft of movement a turn (which is now 0ft from the grapple).
My issue began when the creature landed an attack on me, causing it to use its auto grapple feature, and then with that in mind, us both grappling one another, it used it's 10ft reach to.. move me 5ft away, breaking my grapple and then releasing its grapple, dropping me to the floor to take fall damage. I had no contest of the grapple, wasn't shoved, no movement was expended (even though we'd both have 0ft of movement). Not even the Grell moved. It stayed in place and moved me.
I feel like this wasn't following the rules of the game.
I just wanted to make sure I was understanding the rules correctly as some others I spoke to disagreed with me, while others agreed. Been a mixed bag, was hoping for clarification.
No, the person with a 5ft reach puts the person with a 10ft reach into an armbar when they outstretch their arm.
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If you are both grappled then you both have 0 movement speed. It cannot move away unless it first breaks your grapple.
Now let's say it grapples you and then uses a separate Action to break your grapple (might take something like action surge or haste to pull this off but it's possible), then it could move but if it ends it turn more than 5 feet away its grapple on you will break. Long-limbed traits only function on your turn as part of an attack, they do not allow you to hold someone in a grapple 10 feet away.
But what if they lack elbows due to said 'arm' being a tentacle? Hard to armbar that.
Rules As Written doesn't distinguish between arms, tentacles, body shape, weight, etc, with the exception that some things are just completely Immune to the grappled condition (usually thinks like ghosts, water/fire elementals, stuff you obviously just can't grab and hold onto). If you are grappled then you just can't move period until you escape the grapple.
Moving you away would require a Shove, an opposed roll.
If the attempt succeeded, then yes it would break your grapple on the creature while maintaining its grapple on you.
Actually, the rules for grapple say otherwise. If you have a reach of 10 feet you can grapple a creature that is 10 feet away and you would remain 10 feet apart while that creature is grappled.
However, to answer the question from the OP, the rules also indicate that you cannot simply move the grappled creature around within your reach for free. The only way to move the grappled creature that you are grappling is to move yourself:
In the situation described, this is not possible.
Hmm, that is interesting. Are you allowed to break out of a grapple by successfully shoving a creature? How do these rules interact?
Typically, to escape a grapple, we use this rule:
This would result in both creatures remaining in their current locations but no longer grappled.
However, there is also this rule within the grappled condition itself:
Does Shove create such an effect? According to the rules for Shove:
This seems to be forced movement which satisfies that method of ending the grappled condition specified within the grappled condition itself. So, yes, this would work to break the grapple!
The only remaining question is this: If you have a reach of 10 feet but grapple a creature at 5 feet -- if an effect moves that creature to a location that is 10 feet away, is your grapple maintained? It would seem that the answer is yes.
Also, it might be interesting to note that when you move you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, which means that if you grapple a creature at 10 feet you can choose to close that distance and then maintain a 5 foot grapple or vice versa. You can also do things such as keep the grappled creature at its current location while walking around to the other side of it while still maintaining your grapple. The "opposite" thing doesn't work though -- you cannot remain still while forcing the grappled creature to move to a different location within your reach for free.
Okay, so let me put together the situation more clearly for everyone.
We were fighting a Grell. I ran my 10ft, high jumped from a ledge, landed on it and grappled it, now being 5ft from it, practically riding on top of the thing.
Ignoring the fact my weight is 1.5x the Grell's carrying capacity, hoping that would somehow move it closer to allies but that was ruled as a no. Fair enough, I suppose, it is still technically able to lift more than that but at the cost of only having 5ft of movement a turn (which is now 0ft from the grapple).
My issue began when the creature landed an attack on me, causing it to use its auto grapple feature, and then with that in mind, us both grappling one another, it used it's 10ft reach to.. move me 5ft away, breaking my grapple and then releasing its grapple, dropping me to the floor to take fall damage. I had no contest of the grapple, wasn't shoved, no movement was expended (even though we'd both have 0ft of movement). Not even the Grell moved. It stayed in place and moved me.
I feel like this wasn't following the rules of the game.
I just wanted to make sure I was understanding the rules correctly as some others I spoke to disagreed with me, while others agreed. Been a mixed bag, was hoping for clarification.
My bad, that response was in jest of the armbar thing. Probably should have quoted them and made the joke more obvious in text.
A grappled creature's speed is 0 so it cannot move and drag or carry another creature it is also grappling while using it's speed. It could theorically do so if it could move without using it's speed,
such as an Orc's Aggressive or Harengon's Rabbit Hop trait for exemple.So, I was right in my interpretation that it would have had to contest my grapple to move/drop me?
No it would automatically end if no longer within reach of the grappler;
I originally used incorrect exemples as they refer to speed somehow. I try thinking of another exemple of self movement without speed, perhaps more common one would be off turn, like if another creature used Bait & Switch Maneuver on it i can't think of one at the moment.
Blaze_Deval:
Yes, you were correct. The rules were not followed in your game.
If Creature #1 has a reach of 10 feet and successfully grapples Creature #2 who is 5 feet away, Creature #1 can NOT "use its 10 foot reach" to move Creature #2 5 feet such that it is now 10 feet away instead of 5 feet away. That is against the rules. In order to accomplish this, the Creature #1 would have to move itself 5 feet while choosing to not drag Creature #2 with it, but while maintaining the grapple. However, in your situation that would be impossible since Creature #1 is also currently grappled and thus effectively has 0 speed (it cannot move to a new location).
If interested you can listen to the Dev discussing Grapple in the Dragon Talk Sage Advice on Conditions (37:50) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWz6hfU3QTs
The interesting thing is that I'm this situation, if the Grill used it's action to shove your character 5ft, then it would break your character's grapple, but your character would still be within the 10ft reach of the Grell, so the 5ft shove wouldn't break the Grell's grapple.
I appreciate that this isn't what happened because there was no contested check on the Grell's turn, but I think it's interesting because - if this happened - your character would still be grappled by the Grell but, with speed of 0ft, your character wouldn't be able to close the distance to the Grell...
It's actually really unfortunate that the Grell has the hover trait; grappling flying creatures to reduce their speed to 0ft or knocking them prone both result in lovely amounts of falling damage :-)