I just think the ability to find a spell book from another caster shouldn’t automatically mean instant access to the spells within.
Yea but why? Busywork has no inherent upside to me.
It's not busywork, it's a trade-off for the massive potential array of spells a Wizard can prepare from. You get so many spells by level (well ahead of what spontaneous casters will have in their known pool), and you are able to acquire even more, with the trade-off that the "even more" requires DM cooperation as well as a bit of behind the black time and effort. And it's not just copying the spell down; the exact wording is
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
Part of the reason for the time and cost on the Watsonian side of things is because you can't just read the instructions once and go, it takes time and effort to master the spell. The reason exists; if you don't like it, you can petition your DM for an exception, but just because it doesn't fit your specific headcanon of how magic should work doesn't make it categorically wrong. As I've previously said, exactly where the spell is transcribed is just cosmetic, but the requirement for time and gold is the trade-off on having ever-expanding access to the largest and most versatile spell list in the game.
As to the last part of your post, yes handing out spells like they are participation trophies puts the caster in far better positions than other classes during not only combat, but a whole host of other situations.
but play as you wish, just a game.
That's you .... that's not me. I've said nothing of the sort. That is a strawman. If you care to reply to some of the stuff I've actually said, we'll go from there.
Yea but why? Busywork has no inherent upside to me.
It's not busywork, it's a trade-off for the massive potential array of spells a Wizard can prepare from. You get so many spells by level (well ahead of what spontaneous casters will have in their known pool), and you are able to acquire even more, with the trade-off that the "even more" requires DM cooperation as well as a bit of behind the black time and effort. And it's not just copying the spell down; the exact wording is
Part of the reason for the time and cost on the Watsonian side of things is because you can't just read the instructions once and go, it takes time and effort to master the spell. The reason exists; if you don't like it, you can petition your DM for an exception, but just because it doesn't fit your specific headcanon of how magic should work doesn't make it categorically wrong. As I've previously said, exactly where the spell is transcribed is just cosmetic, but the requirement for time and gold is the trade-off on having ever-expanding access to the largest and most versatile spell list in the game.
It's busywork. Nothing more. I control - as GM - the spells available. All you're doing is saying 'you still get the spells, but you must wait and do a little dance, first'. That's busywork.
And 'it takes time to master a spell' is ... I mean, it's nonsense. Sure, you can say that - but it also takes time to master a weapon, or a tool, or a song. And neither of those have any arbitrary constraint put on them by the system. So either have an arbitrary constraint - or don't.
And the spell list is only as large and versatile as I - as GM - allow it to be. On top of which, people tend to forget that wizards are the weakest class in the game. Oh ... not by default, as such, but if I decide - as GM - that the enemy is clever enough to purposefully counter the wizard, the wizard has the tools to keep him- or herself safe, but that'll be all they do. Unlike, say, the barbarian, who can decide to stay unsafe, and just deal out damage quicker than the enemy can return it.
It's so easy to destroy a wizards day. It's so easy we all agree that it's kinda rude. We just don't really consider why. Having an NPC with counterspell, and another who doggedly harasses the caster is considered unfair. Because it robs the poor wizard of all that glory they have when they're left alone.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
As to the last part of your post, yes handing out spells like they are participation trophies puts the caster in far better positions than other classes during not only combat, but a whole host of other situations.
but play as you wish, just a game.
That's you .... that's not me. I've said nothing of the sort. That is a strawman. If you care to reply to some of the stuff I've actually said, we'll go from there.
Yea but why? Busywork has no inherent upside to me.
It's not busywork, it's a trade-off for the massive potential array of spells a Wizard can prepare from. You get so many spells by level (well ahead of what spontaneous casters will have in their known pool), and you are able to acquire even more, with the trade-off that the "even more" requires DM cooperation as well as a bit of behind the black time and effort. And it's not just copying the spell down; the exact wording is
Part of the reason for the time and cost on the Watsonian side of things is because you can't just read the instructions once and go, it takes time and effort to master the spell. The reason exists; if you don't like it, you can petition your DM for an exception, but just because it doesn't fit your specific headcanon of how magic should work doesn't make it categorically wrong. As I've previously said, exactly where the spell is transcribed is just cosmetic, but the requirement for time and gold is the trade-off on having ever-expanding access to the largest and most versatile spell list in the game.
It's busywork. Nothing more. I control - as GM - the spells available. All you're doing is saying 'you still get the spells, but you must wait and do a little dance, first'. That's busywork.
And 'it takes time to master a spell' is ... I mean, it's nonsense. Sure, you can say that - but it also takes time to master a weapon, or a tool, or a song. And neither of those have any arbitrary constraint put on them by the system. So either have an arbitrary constraint - or don't.
And the spell list is only as large and versatile as I - as GM - allow it to be. On top of which, people tend to forget that wizards are the weakest class in the game. Oh ... not by default, as such, but if I decide - as GM - that the enemy is clever enough to purposefully counter the wizard, the wizard has the tools to keep him- or herself safe, but that'll be all they do. Unlike, say, the barbarian, who can decide to stay unsafe, and just deal out damage quicker than the enemy can return it.
It's so easy to destroy a wizards day. It's so easy we all agree that it's kinda rude. We just don't really consider why. Having an NPC with counterspell, and another who doggedly harasses the caster is considered unfair. Because it robs the poor wizard of all that glory they have when they're left alone.
Funny I recall someone saying this:
Magic spells are bog standard, why would any caster dream that his fireball spell was any different than all the others out there? I get what you're saying, but this game doesn't support what you're going for. There's an Ye Olden Magic Item Shoppe on every corner (by which I mean the gold-becomes-power mechanic is ingrained in the very fabric, the substructure of the game), where you can buy Nuclear Bomb Golems if you have money enough. Why would Jimmy the Mage's Chill Touch spell be something too dark for the world?
So as a GM/DM you have McDonalds type magic shoppes every 500ft that has every magic spell standardized and ready for use, just whip out ye olde coin pouch and pony up?
where ye get the coin, money doesn’t grow on trees with respect to the rules. is it most likely being held by that clever enemy in an attempts to keep others weak, or is it simply a matter of getting off one’s ass and seeking out a payday?
what if I’m looking for coin to buy that Nuke Golem with cup holders for 250k gold? What if I know a certain group of people that can quickly help gather the coin, and keep me safe by supporting them from a distance?
When you buck the trend and toss elements of a system meant to give a measure of balance, don’t complain when that unrestricted balance comes back to bite you in the ass.
As a GM/DM you have the power to make life easy or difficult, but ask yourself this, by ignoring or even removing busywork did you make that busywork easier, or just add more busywork that cost more than just leaving the initial busywork and working ways to make it not so busy?
You kinda answered your own question: you need to spend imaginary time because it's part of the imaginary experience of learning magic.
How much "real time" does it take to say "I spend X gold to learn the spells from this book during our week of downtime after our latest adventure"? The only thing taking time to scribe the spells does make people defer their gratification until loot can be tallied and spent, which is also the same delay everyone who wants to go looking to buy a magic item has to deal with.
There’s really nothing in the game that defines how many “volumes” a spellbook has. Back in the day each spell took up a number of pages in your spellbook based on the spell’s level, and a spellbook contained a specified number of pages, so a particularly learned, high level wiz had a master spellbook that spanned several volumes and also contained all their research notes on how to construct magic items too, and a travel spellbook they actually took on the road with them that only contained their go-to spells, and a handful of specialized spells for just in case scenarios. They’ve done away with all of that this edition and as long as you keep pumping the sucker full of premium ink your spellbook can just keep essentially gobbling up other wizards’ spellbooks. Your spellbook could even be a scroll case full of loose leaf papers, a deck of cards, or a length of cordage with a special pattern of knots and beads tied in it this edition.
Or, if you want to say you're just keeping a running collection of the spellbooks you find, that works too really. Despite the arguments people have put forward that things like the Enchanted Quill Scribes Wizards get allows them to bypass part or all of the scribing cost, the basic RAW of learning spells from spellbooks as a Wizard has nothing to do with the act of putting quill to paper, it is simply "pay X and spend Y time based on the level of the spell to be able to prepare it". How you frame that process is ultimately up to you, the cost and time just provide immersion of actually learning magic through research and a check on how rapidly your array of spells can grow.
Magic spells are bog standard, why would any caster dream that his fireball spell was any different than all the others out there? I get what you're saying, but this game doesn't support what you're going for. There's an Ye Olden Magic Item Shoppe on every corner (by which I mean the gold-becomes-power mechanic is ingrained in the very fabric, the substructure of the game), where you can buy Nuclear Bomb Golems if you have money enough. Why would Jimmy the Mage's Chill Touch spell be something too dark for the world?
So as a GM/DM you have McDonalds type magic shoppes every 500ft that has every magic spell standardized and ready for use, just whip out ye olde coin pouch and pony up?
where ye get the coin, money doesn’t grow on trees with respect to the rules. is it most likely being held by that clever enemy in an attempts to keep others weak, or is it simply a matter of getting off one’s ass and seeking out a payday?
what if I’m looking for coin to buy that Nuke Golem with cup holders for 250k gold? What if I know a certain group of people that can quickly help gather the coin, and keep me safe by supporting them from a distance?
When you buck the trend and toss elements of a system meant to give a measure of balance, don’t complain when that unrestricted balance comes back to bite you in the ass.
As a GM/DM you have the power to make life easy or difficult, but ask yourself this, by ignoring or even removing busywork did you make that busywork easier, or just add more busywork that cost more than just leaving the initial busywork and working ways to make it not so busy?
Oh. No, you really shouldn't try to comment on my games. Unless you happen to play in them.
But let me try to explain: All of this isn't a problem in my games. There is no gold-to-power mechanic in my games, you cannot buy magic items at all (except for potions and the occasional scroll), I control what spells anyone get's, for the latest couple of games there's no plot - at all - and I don't do the magic items you can find in the books either. I don't use any official monster. You may find a goblin or a manticore - but they're never what you expect. Half the races aren't available (a lot more than half, actually).
So maybe stick to the point, and just leave my games and how I GM out of it. Just a suggestion.
Now, onto other things. Ye Olden Magic Item Shoppe is how I portray the game as it is: The gold-to-power mechanic, how players expect to buy items and spells, all that jazz. It's not a feature of my games.
And I have no idea what you're saying about busywork. I can tell you this: I cut stuff out of my games that I consider dull and pointless. So as an example, having players jump through hoops to access a core class mechanic such as games is not something I do, because I find it dull and pointless.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Magic spells are bog standard, why would any caster dream that his fireball spell was any different than all the others out there? I get what you're saying, but this game doesn't support what you're going for. There's an Ye Olden Magic Item Shoppe on every corner (by which I mean the gold-becomes-power mechanic is ingrained in the very fabric, the substructure of the game), where you can buy Nuclear Bomb Golems if you have money enough. Why would Jimmy the Mage's Chill Touch spell be something too dark for the world?
So as a GM/DM you have McDonalds type magic shoppes every 500ft that has every magic spell standardized and ready for use, just whip out ye olde coin pouch and pony up?
where ye get the coin, money doesn’t grow on trees with respect to the rules. is it most likely being held by that clever enemy in an attempts to keep others weak, or is it simply a matter of getting off one’s ass and seeking out a payday?
what if I’m looking for coin to buy that Nuke Golem with cup holders for 250k gold? What if I know a certain group of people that can quickly help gather the coin, and keep me safe by supporting them from a distance?
When you buck the trend and toss elements of a system meant to give a measure of balance, don’t complain when that unrestricted balance comes back to bite you in the ass.
As a GM/DM you have the power to make life easy or difficult, but ask yourself this, by ignoring or even removing busywork did you make that busywork easier, or just add more busywork that cost more than just leaving the initial busywork and working ways to make it not so busy?
Oh. No, you really shouldn't try to comment on my games. Unless you happen to play in them.
But let me try to explain: All of this isn't a problem in my games. There is no gold-to-power mechanic in my games, you cannot buy magic items at all (except for potions and the occasional scroll), I control what spells anyone get's, for the latest couple of games there's no plot - at all - and I don't do the magic items you can find in the books either. I don't use any official monster. You may find a goblin or a manticore - but they're never what you expect. Half the races aren't available (a lot more than half, actually).
So maybe stick to the point, and just leave my games and how I GM out of it. Just a suggestion.
Now, onto other things. Ye Olden Magic Item Shoppe is how I portray the game as it is: The gold-to-power mechanic, how players expect to buy items and spells, all that jazz. It's not a feature of my games.
And I have no idea what you're saying about busywork. I can tell you this: I cut stuff out of my games that I consider dull and pointless. So as an example, having players jump through hoops to access a core class mechanic such as games is not something I do, because I find it dull and pointless.
To be fair, discussing your homebrew overhauls of core pillars in the rules and mechanics subforum is perhaps not the most on-point commentary. The question is about how one goes about utilizing a found spellbook per RAW, not everyone's personal take on how it should be done.
To be fair, discussing your homebrew overhauls of core pillars in the rules and mechanics subforum is perhaps not the most on-point commentary. The question is about how one goes about utilizing a found spellbook per RAW, not everyone's personal take on how it should be done.
Well, I didn't say it was. What I said was - and I was trying to be rather specific - was that maybe he shouldn't be commenting on me as a GM, and my games. Considering that he literally doesn't know the first thing about me, and also happens to miss the mark by such a wide margin that he might as well have been aiming for the moon.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
To be fair, discussing your homebrew overhauls of core pillars in the rules and mechanics subforum is perhaps not the most on-point commentary. The question is about how one goes about utilizing a found spellbook per RAW, not everyone's personal take on how it should be done.
Well, I didn't say it was. What I said was - and I was trying to be rather specific - was that maybe he shouldn't be commenting on me as a GM, and my games. Considering that he literally doesn't know the first thing about me, and also happens to miss the mark by such a wide margin that he might as well have been aiming for the moon.
Well first thank you for explaining your method of how you manage your games, and explains the mentality.
[REDACTED]
Anyone can rule as they wish, and I actually like low to no magic games off and on.
Well first thank you for explaining your method of how you manage your games, and explains the mentality.
As for the attitude of your post, and those before, well had you not been so dismissive you would have not received what you perceived as an unfair criticism of your methods.
Anyone can rule as they wish, and I actually like low to no magic games off and on.
So I’ll be the bigger person and forgive you, it’s just a game.
Oh you'll forgive me? Wow, thanks.
I .. don't feel I've been dismissive. If I was, I didn't intend to. There's a disclaimer for precisely this sort of thing (below). This is the internet, and text tends to be read differently than it was written. But I never 'perceived' anything as 'unfair criticism'. Rather, someone resorted to personal slights rather than criticism, and also fairly consistently used strawmen rather than respond to what I've actually said. That, I do not have the patience for.
You can go absolutely hog wild - so long as you go after the arguments.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I don’t think you can simply transition to using someone else’s book. The entire point of the need for time and gold to scribe found spells is that you need to work out the notation you found and practice casting the spell yourself. The magic item books that come with certain pre-loaded spells are a specific exception. In your scenario, since Arcane Grimoires aren’t pre-loaded this way, I’d say anything already in the book that you don’t already have still costs the full rate to learn and be able to prepare, and you can copy your already known from your current book to it at the reduced rate. Really, the thing to remember is that the RAW of learning spells as a Wizard is not dependent on the act of writing out the learned spell; if you find a spell you did not learn via level up, you can spend the appropriate time and gold to learn it. Where that spell is ultimately transcribed is more cosmetic than mechanical.
Thanks, this is how I interpreted it as well. Although the transcribe into your spellbook part is a bit funky when considering magic item spellbooks or spellbooks from deceased Wizards. When finding something like an Arcane Grimoire I would expect there to be spells in the book from a previous owner - regardless if you find it in a troll hoard or at a magic shop.
In my case it was a previous party companion turned evil - whom happened to be a plot progression tool for the GM (as that NPC - not me getting my hands on their spellbook) - and as such the book had all the spells of that player, which included higher tier spells (which I cannot use or even attempt to understand - imagine the sheer level of magic is almost blindingly bright to the Wizard's eyes). Alas I suddenly had a major amount of spells I could transcribe into my own spellbook - but I wanted to use their spellbook, which was magical.
However is it possible to simply swap over to that new spellbook and use it as if it was your own and prepare spells from this spellbook? Could you then copy spells from your previous spellbook as per the rules for making a back-up spellbook (aka at the low copy cost)?
You can use any spellbook to prepare your spells from. However, the spells the previous wrote will not be usable to you. You will need to transcribe them - at full cost. This is because every wizard uses their own cypher and notation system.
I'd say any sane wizard who finds another spellbook simply keeps both. Why would he ever go the the pointless trouble of copying the spells over? Either he can read them, or he cannot. Anything else is utter junk. The whole thing is there are some sort of pseudo-explanation for why spellbooks aren't mass produced - and it's no less junk for that, because it doesn't explain anything. You have a common trade language - but the most intelligent people in the world weren't ever clever enough to produce a common shorthand for spell casting?
So. Back in his tower, any sane wizard keeps all the spellbooks he took off other - now diseased - casters. On his person, he carries a master book into which he's paid a scribe to copy all the spells. And finally, he has a copy of his master spellbook kept safe in some third, secret location. Like a bank.
And all the inept excuses and fabulations of the devs be damned.
The point about keeping all spellbooks is indeed very rational. And to me it doesn't make sense that you can only prepare spells from "your spellbook" as a singular item. If you happen to have three different spellbooks with different spells in them - that you wrote the cypher for - then it really shouldn't matter how many books you prepare spells from. The only reason I see is simplicity so there's no confusion about which spells are from where and so forth. However that just means every time a Wizard finds a better spellbook they have to spend a sum of gold (and time - sometimes the more prohibited of the two if you have an impatient group or a deadline) to copy their spells over. That to me is a bit nonsense as the time is only halved and the gold is one fifth, which seems like an arbitrary tax on Wizards getting better spellbooks. Imagine a Fighter having to buy leather and service to fit an armor they found/purchased or spending money on training dummies to attune or be able to use newfound weapons...
Think of it this way. If all the spells in the book were scrolls exactly how valuable would the book be?
<snip>
I wouldn't compare spellbooks to a number of spell scrolls, except for the explicit purpose of learning spells. The main power of spell scrolls is after all to exceed your spell slots AND your flexibility.
You kinda answered your own question: you need to spend imaginary time because it's part of the imaginary experience of learning magic.
How much "real time" does it take to say "I spend X gold to learn the spells from this book during our week of downtime after our latest adventure"? The only thing taking time to scribe the spells does make people defer their gratification until loot can be tallied and spent, which is also the same delay everyone who wants to go looking to buy a magic item has to deal with.
Depending on your settings, scenario and especially your play group, the time component may actually be the most prohibitive. If your party keeps pulling to continue the quest and you don't get down-time to copy spells, you may end up with an Arcane Grimoire that you never get the chance to use - I know you can cheese and just attune to the book and have another book as your spellbook to prepare spells from, but that's not really the flavor of the game. However something like a Tome of the Stilled Tongue has a very big incentive to get your spells into the book to utilize its ability to free-cast one spell per dawn.
The speed bump is deliberate; the basic design assumption of Wizards is you’ll only or at least primarily be using the spells you learned as you leveled up. Scribing an entire book’s worth of spells is not something you’re able to easily do mid-adventure by design; it’s something you spend the weeks of downtime between adventures doing, if you’re in such a campaign. Granted, this is something that might require some coordination between player and DM rather than simply happening naturally, but imo if a DM is awarding spellbooks, they should be considering how to give the Wizard time to learn the new spells. Plus, it’s not like transferring spells is all-or-nothing; a few hours every day will add up, just prioritize your main selection first. It’s not a perfect system, but broadly speaking spell scribing is in the same boat as magic item crafting; it’s an optional feature a DM can choose to work into the game, not a core component of character progression. And worst-case a DM can handwave the time and/or gold if they awarded one of the magic books during a one-shot or other brief adventure without thinking all the factors through.
The speed bump is deliberate; the basic design assumption of Wizards is you’ll only or at least primarily be using the spells you learned as you leveled up. Scribing an entire book’s worth of spells is not something you’re able to easily do mid-adventure by design; it’s something you spend the weeks of downtime between adventures doing, if you’re in such a campaign. Granted, this is something that might require some coordination between player and DM rather than simply happening naturally, but imo if a DM is awarding spellbooks, they should be considering how to give the Wizard time to learn the new spells. Plus, it’s not like transferring spells is all-or-nothing; a few hours every day will add up, just prioritize your main selection first. It’s not a perfect system, but broadly speaking spell scribing is in the same boat as magic item crafting; it’s an optional feature a DM can choose to work into the game, not a core component of character progression. And worst-case a DM can handwave the time and/or gold if they awarded one of the magic books during a one-shot or other brief adventure without thinking all the factors through.
To scribe the above as a replacement, it would be 220 hours - a little over 9 days and 2,200 gold.
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The speed bump is deliberate; the basic design assumption of Wizards is you’ll only or at least primarily be using the spells you learned as you leveled up. Scribing an entire book’s worth of spells is not something you’re able to easily do mid-adventure by design; it’s something you spend the weeks of downtime between adventures doing, if you’re in such a campaign. Granted, this is something that might require some coordination between player and DM rather than simply happening naturally, but imo if a DM is awarding spellbooks, they should be considering how to give the Wizard time to learn the new spells. Plus, it’s not like transferring spells is all-or-nothing; a few hours every day will add up, just prioritize your main selection first. It’s not a perfect system, but broadly speaking spell scribing is in the same boat as magic item crafting; it’s an optional feature a DM can choose to work into the game, not a core component of character progression. And worst-case a DM can handwave the time and/or gold if they awarded one of the magic books during a one-shot or other brief adventure without thinking all the factors through.
To scribe the above as a replacement, it would be 220 hours - a little over 9 days and 2,200 gold.
And if your 4th tier Wizard doesn’t have those at some point in a running campaign, that’s a case of the DM either setting a truly breakneck pace or being shockingly tight with cash rewards more than a fault of the underlying system, imo. It’s an imperfect system, partly because the magic books were created further down the line, but if it’s gonna take a 20th level Wizard maybe two weeks to copy everything down- factoring in 8 hours of rest/day, someone in tier 2 should only need a few days of downtime to make the transfer. Not necessarily workable on the road, but once the immediate plot point is resolved a DM should be able to work in some time to get it sorted. This might not be the case for every campaign, but that’s how it goes sometimes in a sandbox format.
The speed bump is deliberate; the basic design assumption of Wizards is you’ll only or at least primarily be using the spells you learned as you leveled up. Scribing an entire book’s worth of spells is not something you’re able to easily do mid-adventure by design; it’s something you spend the weeks of downtime between adventures doing, if you’re in such a campaign. Granted, this is something that might require some coordination between player and DM rather than simply happening naturally, but imo if a DM is awarding spellbooks, they should be considering how to give the Wizard time to learn the new spells. Plus, it’s not like transferring spells is all-or-nothing; a few hours every day will add up, just prioritize your main selection first. It’s not a perfect system, but broadly speaking spell scribing is in the same boat as magic item crafting; it’s an optional feature a DM can choose to work into the game, not a core component of character progression. And worst-case a DM can handwave the time and/or gold if they awarded one of the magic books during a one-shot or other brief adventure without thinking all the factors through.
But copying is not an optional feature...? It's a supplementary mechanic of the Wizard but alas core.
My point was that even just copying your own spells over takes a long time and a non-insignificant amount of gold, so even just getting a new magic spellbook item has a tax associated with it. My 12th level wizard would have 89 levels worth of spells to copy, which would take 89 hours and 890 gold. That's a rather hefty "fine" for getting a new spellbook. Luckily I'm an Elf, so my sleep requirement is halved, granting me about 5 hours per day to copy spells in while the party is on the go. Still that's 18 days worth of traveling that I would have to keep up to fully transcribe my spells.
This is not a major gribe for the current campaign, as the GM said I could just act like the new spellbook was mine and copy my other spells over from my previous book (at full rate) - hence the reason for the question in the OP. There were quite a bit of overlap and quite a few spells with... less incentive to transcribe. So it was not nearly as taxing as it would be for a full transcription. It didn't really grant me a significant power boost to do it this way and the campaign is also tilting toward the end, so I imagine it may be more a possible plot tool for the GM rather than actual player power - plus it has a downside that my character is unaware of.
My current campaign aside it still seems like an arbitrary tax and time restraint on Wizards for copying their own work, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Like you said it is an imperfect system but the UA for the PHB 2024 doesn't seem to have made any changes to this, which confuses me a little. I had hoped they would consider making the copy rate more lenient, ala 10 minutes per spell level and 1 GP. Regular ink in DND costs 10 GP per ounce / 30 ml which should last you around 30-40 pages with an ink pen. Older editions of DnD have stated that spells takes up 1 page per spell level - thus one spell level costs 1 page or 1/30th of 10 GP. How premium is fine ink? Current rates taken into account it would seem like 30 times the price of regular ink, aka 300 GP per ounce. Even if there's gemstone dust in the ink, dust or bad cut/uncut gems can be found down to 50 GP per stone or portion needed as a spell component. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense in the physical realm, so it must be a game mechanic cost akin to Spell Scrolls - although with Spell Scrolls you get power, so it makes sense to limit it (reference to Acromos' point about DnD being run on a gold-to-power engine), but that's not the case with copying your known spells. In short; it's some BS. Asking your GM to circumvent/lessen a minor game mechanic because it feels like BS is a short road to make your GM a little annoyed and shouldn't be on the player nor the GM to fix or make room for.
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It's not busywork, it's a trade-off for the massive potential array of spells a Wizard can prepare from. You get so many spells by level (well ahead of what spontaneous casters will have in their known pool), and you are able to acquire even more, with the trade-off that the "even more" requires DM cooperation as well as a bit of behind the black time and effort. And it's not just copying the spell down; the exact wording is
Part of the reason for the time and cost on the Watsonian side of things is because you can't just read the instructions once and go, it takes time and effort to master the spell. The reason exists; if you don't like it, you can petition your DM for an exception, but just because it doesn't fit your specific headcanon of how magic should work doesn't make it categorically wrong. As I've previously said, exactly where the spell is transcribed is just cosmetic, but the requirement for time and gold is the trade-off on having ever-expanding access to the largest and most versatile spell list in the game.
That's you .... that's not me. I've said nothing of the sort. That is a strawman. If you care to reply to some of the stuff I've actually said, we'll go from there.
It's busywork. Nothing more. I control - as GM - the spells available. All you're doing is saying 'you still get the spells, but you must wait and do a little dance, first'. That's busywork.
And 'it takes time to master a spell' is ... I mean, it's nonsense. Sure, you can say that - but it also takes time to master a weapon, or a tool, or a song. And neither of those have any arbitrary constraint put on them by the system. So either have an arbitrary constraint - or don't.
And the spell list is only as large and versatile as I - as GM - allow it to be. On top of which, people tend to forget that wizards are the weakest class in the game. Oh ... not by default, as such, but if I decide - as GM - that the enemy is clever enough to purposefully counter the wizard, the wizard has the tools to keep him- or herself safe, but that'll be all they do. Unlike, say, the barbarian, who can decide to stay unsafe, and just deal out damage quicker than the enemy can return it.
It's so easy to destroy a wizards day. It's so easy we all agree that it's kinda rude. We just don't really consider why. Having an NPC with counterspell, and another who doggedly harasses the caster is considered unfair. Because it robs the poor wizard of all that glory they have when they're left alone.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Funny I recall someone saying this:
Magic spells are bog standard, why would any caster dream that his fireball spell was any different than all the others out there? I get what you're saying, but this game doesn't support what you're going for. There's an Ye Olden Magic Item Shoppe on every corner (by which I mean the gold-becomes-power mechanic is ingrained in the very fabric, the substructure of the game), where you can buy Nuclear Bomb Golems if you have money enough. Why would Jimmy the Mage's Chill Touch spell be something too dark for the world?
So as a GM/DM you have McDonalds type magic shoppes every 500ft that has every magic spell standardized and ready for use, just whip out ye olde coin pouch and pony up?
where ye get the coin, money doesn’t grow on trees with respect to the rules. is it most likely being held by that clever enemy in an attempts to keep others weak, or is it simply a matter of getting off one’s ass and seeking out a payday?
what if I’m looking for coin to buy that Nuke Golem with cup holders for 250k gold? What if I know a certain group of people that can quickly help gather the coin, and keep me safe by supporting them from a distance?
When you buck the trend and toss elements of a system meant to give a measure of balance, don’t complain when that unrestricted balance comes back to bite you in the ass.
As a GM/DM you have the power to make life easy or difficult, but ask yourself this, by ignoring or even removing busywork did you make that busywork easier, or just add more busywork that cost more than just leaving the initial busywork and working ways to make it not so busy?
Its an imaginary game.
Why do I have to take imaginary time to do imaginary stuff?
Decoding books and puzzles shouldn't be part of the game that just slows down my power climb and combat time. If not I am going back to my video game.
Lets just skip it and spend that 15 minutes of real time at the table fighting in the game.
Anyone get the sarcasm in this?
You kinda answered your own question: you need to spend imaginary time because it's part of the imaginary experience of learning magic.
How much "real time" does it take to say "I spend X gold to learn the spells from this book during our week of downtime after our latest adventure"? The only thing taking time to scribe the spells does make people defer their gratification until loot can be tallied and spent, which is also the same delay everyone who wants to go looking to buy a magic item has to deal with.
i know Ace.
I know.
We actually used to roll a check to see if we could figure the spell out. If not we tried again at the next level.
Sorry, missed the sarcasm the first time.
There’s really nothing in the game that defines how many “volumes” a spellbook has. Back in the day each spell took up a number of pages in your spellbook based on the spell’s level, and a spellbook contained a specified number of pages, so a particularly learned, high level wiz had a master spellbook that spanned several volumes and also contained all their research notes on how to construct magic items too, and a travel spellbook they actually took on the road with them that only contained their go-to spells, and a handful of specialized spells for just in case scenarios. They’ve done away with all of that this edition and as long as you keep pumping the sucker full of premium ink your spellbook can just keep essentially gobbling up other wizards’ spellbooks. Your spellbook could even be a scroll case full of loose leaf papers, a deck of cards, or a length of cordage with a special pattern of knots and beads tied in it this edition.
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Or, if you want to say you're just keeping a running collection of the spellbooks you find, that works too really. Despite the arguments people have put forward that things like the Enchanted Quill Scribes Wizards get allows them to bypass part or all of the scribing cost, the basic RAW of learning spells from spellbooks as a Wizard has nothing to do with the act of putting quill to paper, it is simply "pay X and spend Y time based on the level of the spell to be able to prepare it". How you frame that process is ultimately up to you, the cost and time just provide immersion of actually learning magic through research and a check on how rapidly your array of spells can grow.
Oh. No, you really shouldn't try to comment on my games. Unless you happen to play in them.
But let me try to explain: All of this isn't a problem in my games. There is no gold-to-power mechanic in my games, you cannot buy magic items at all (except for potions and the occasional scroll), I control what spells anyone get's, for the latest couple of games there's no plot - at all - and I don't do the magic items you can find in the books either. I don't use any official monster. You may find a goblin or a manticore - but they're never what you expect. Half the races aren't available (a lot more than half, actually).
So maybe stick to the point, and just leave my games and how I GM out of it. Just a suggestion.
Now, onto other things. Ye Olden Magic Item Shoppe is how I portray the game as it is: The gold-to-power mechanic, how players expect to buy items and spells, all that jazz. It's not a feature of my games.
And I have no idea what you're saying about busywork. I can tell you this: I cut stuff out of my games that I consider dull and pointless. So as an example, having players jump through hoops to access a core class mechanic such as games is not something I do, because I find it dull and pointless.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
To be fair, discussing your homebrew overhauls of core pillars in the rules and mechanics subforum is perhaps not the most on-point commentary. The question is about how one goes about utilizing a found spellbook per RAW, not everyone's personal take on how it should be done.
Well, I didn't say it was. What I said was - and I was trying to be rather specific - was that maybe he shouldn't be commenting on me as a GM, and my games. Considering that he literally doesn't know the first thing about me, and also happens to miss the mark by such a wide margin that he might as well have been aiming for the moon.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well first thank you for explaining your method of how you manage your games, and explains the mentality.
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Anyone can rule as they wish, and I actually like low to no magic games off and on.
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Oh you'll forgive me? Wow, thanks.
I .. don't feel I've been dismissive. If I was, I didn't intend to. There's a disclaimer for precisely this sort of thing (below). This is the internet, and text tends to be read differently than it was written. But I never 'perceived' anything as 'unfair criticism'. Rather, someone resorted to personal slights rather than criticism, and also fairly consistently used strawmen rather than respond to what I've actually said. That, I do not have the patience for.
You can go absolutely hog wild - so long as you go after the arguments.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Thanks, this is how I interpreted it as well. Although the transcribe into your spellbook part is a bit funky when considering magic item spellbooks or spellbooks from deceased Wizards. When finding something like an Arcane Grimoire I would expect there to be spells in the book from a previous owner - regardless if you find it in a troll hoard or at a magic shop.
In my case it was a previous party companion turned evil - whom happened to be a plot progression tool for the GM (as that NPC - not me getting my hands on their spellbook) - and as such the book had all the spells of that player, which included higher tier spells (which I cannot use or even attempt to understand - imagine the sheer level of magic is almost blindingly bright to the Wizard's eyes). Alas I suddenly had a major amount of spells I could transcribe into my own spellbook - but I wanted to use their spellbook, which was magical.
It did, thank you.
The point about keeping all spellbooks is indeed very rational. And to me it doesn't make sense that you can only prepare spells from "your spellbook" as a singular item. If you happen to have three different spellbooks with different spells in them - that you wrote the cypher for - then it really shouldn't matter how many books you prepare spells from. The only reason I see is simplicity so there's no confusion about which spells are from where and so forth. However that just means every time a Wizard finds a better spellbook they have to spend a sum of gold (and time - sometimes the more prohibited of the two if you have an impatient group or a deadline) to copy their spells over. That to me is a bit nonsense as the time is only halved and the gold is one fifth, which seems like an arbitrary tax on Wizards getting better spellbooks. Imagine a Fighter having to buy leather and service to fit an armor they found/purchased or spending money on training dummies to attune or be able to use newfound weapons...
I wouldn't compare spellbooks to a number of spell scrolls, except for the explicit purpose of learning spells. The main power of spell scrolls is after all to exceed your spell slots AND your flexibility.
Depending on your settings, scenario and especially your play group, the time component may actually be the most prohibitive. If your party keeps pulling to continue the quest and you don't get down-time to copy spells, you may end up with an Arcane Grimoire that you never get the chance to use - I know you can cheese and just attune to the book and have another book as your spellbook to prepare spells from, but that's not really the flavor of the game. However something like a Tome of the Stilled Tongue has a very big incentive to get your spells into the book to utilize its ability to free-cast one spell per dawn.
The speed bump is deliberate; the basic design assumption of Wizards is you’ll only or at least primarily be using the spells you learned as you leveled up. Scribing an entire book’s worth of spells is not something you’re able to easily do mid-adventure by design; it’s something you spend the weeks of downtime between adventures doing, if you’re in such a campaign. Granted, this is something that might require some coordination between player and DM rather than simply happening naturally, but imo if a DM is awarding spellbooks, they should be considering how to give the Wizard time to learn the new spells. Plus, it’s not like transferring spells is all-or-nothing; a few hours every day will add up, just prioritize your main selection first. It’s not a perfect system, but broadly speaking spell scribing is in the same boat as magic item crafting; it’s an optional feature a DM can choose to work into the game, not a core component of character progression. And worst-case a DM can handwave the time and/or gold if they awarded one of the magic books during a one-shot or other brief adventure without thinking all the factors through.
Best advice, IMHO talk with your DM about the item, and what getting such item means.
To scribe the above as a replacement, it would be 220 hours - a little over 9 days and 2,200 gold.
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And if your 4th tier Wizard doesn’t have those at some point in a running campaign, that’s a case of the DM either setting a truly breakneck pace or being shockingly tight with cash rewards more than a fault of the underlying system, imo. It’s an imperfect system, partly because the magic books were created further down the line, but if it’s gonna take a 20th level Wizard maybe two weeks to copy everything down- factoring in 8 hours of rest/day, someone in tier 2 should only need a few days of downtime to make the transfer. Not necessarily workable on the road, but once the immediate plot point is resolved a DM should be able to work in some time to get it sorted. This might not be the case for every campaign, but that’s how it goes sometimes in a sandbox format.
But copying is not an optional feature...? It's a supplementary mechanic of the Wizard but alas core.
My point was that even just copying your own spells over takes a long time and a non-insignificant amount of gold, so even just getting a new magic spellbook item has a tax associated with it. My 12th level wizard would have 89 levels worth of spells to copy, which would take 89 hours and 890 gold. That's a rather hefty "fine" for getting a new spellbook. Luckily I'm an Elf, so my sleep requirement is halved, granting me about 5 hours per day to copy spells in while the party is on the go. Still that's 18 days worth of traveling that I would have to keep up to fully transcribe my spells.
This is not a major gribe for the current campaign, as the GM said I could just act like the new spellbook was mine and copy my other spells over from my previous book (at full rate) - hence the reason for the question in the OP. There were quite a bit of overlap and quite a few spells with... less incentive to transcribe. So it was not nearly as taxing as it would be for a full transcription. It didn't really grant me a significant power boost to do it this way and the campaign is also tilting toward the end, so I imagine it may be more a possible plot tool for the GM rather than actual player power - plus it has a downside that my character is unaware of.
My current campaign aside it still seems like an arbitrary tax and time restraint on Wizards for copying their own work, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Like you said it is an imperfect system but the UA for the PHB 2024 doesn't seem to have made any changes to this, which confuses me a little. I had hoped they would consider making the copy rate more lenient, ala 10 minutes per spell level and 1 GP. Regular ink in DND costs 10 GP per ounce / 30 ml which should last you around 30-40 pages with an ink pen. Older editions of DnD have stated that spells takes up 1 page per spell level - thus one spell level costs 1 page or 1/30th of 10 GP. How premium is fine ink? Current rates taken into account it would seem like 30 times the price of regular ink, aka 300 GP per ounce. Even if there's gemstone dust in the ink, dust or bad cut/uncut gems can be found down to 50 GP per stone or portion needed as a spell component. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense in the physical realm, so it must be a game mechanic cost akin to Spell Scrolls - although with Spell Scrolls you get power, so it makes sense to limit it (reference to Acromos' point about DnD being run on a gold-to-power engine), but that's not the case with copying your known spells. In short; it's some BS. Asking your GM to circumvent/lessen a minor game mechanic because it feels like BS is a short road to make your GM a little annoyed and shouldn't be on the player nor the GM to fix or make room for.