The spellbook sidebar, which David42 quoted relevantly, tells you every rule associated with “Copying a spell into the book.” Those are the extent of the rules on getting any spell into the book.
It is exactly true that the spellbook gives rules for getting spells into the book. If there are no rules for some particular set of spells, that is not a rule by omission. In fact, it is the opposite in 5e. It is AN OMISSION of a rule for that topic. THERE IS NO RULE.
Your logic is flawed and not helpful trying to understand 5e.
Aasimar, thank you for the summary. You pretty much got it. Except that it would have to be a legitimate spell to be considered a spell. Unless your game world allows you to make up your own spells you wouldn't be able to do that.
I'll leave it to you to decide how overpowered this really is. After all, the original poster was shown that there actually is a wizard spell that has the damage type he was looking for so he could have properly added that spell instead of going through this trouble. So how big of a deal is it really?
Unfortunately, "that clearly isn't the intent" isn't usually good enough evidence in a RAW discussion.
I think the big picture issue is if there are lots of other Features in the game that use this wording.
For example, the Ritual portion of the Wizard's Spellcasting Feature does not seem to technically require the spell to be a known spell. But let's not digress too far into the weeds.
For example, the Ritual portion of the Wizard's Spellcasting Feature does not seem to technically require the spell to be a known spell. But let's not digress too far into the weeds.
The ritual portion of the Wizard's spellcasting feature tells you the ritual has to come from the wizard's spellbook. Which requires using the spellbook rules. Which means it must be a wizard spell that was gained on level up or added with time and money.
It is the same as with subclass features that refer back to class features and class rules. It isn't as confusing as you make it seem. It's all the same idea that you're having trouble understanding.
I have a genuine question. If you are not using any of the Wizard class rules for the Wizard's subclass of Order of the scribes to determine how the spellbook works, like the wizard spellcasting rule
Spellbook
At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice. Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
that you'd have to use for any subclass rule involving spells, casting, or spellbooks and if you aren't using the spellbook sidebar (which David42 helpfully quoted earlier) then what rules ARE you using to determine how the spellbook works and what can and cannot go into it?
"You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard’s chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library."
This suggests that spells are not only located on Spell Scroll magic items and Wizard's spellbooks but could be written down anywhere.
As far as I know, only Wizards and characters with the Ritual Caster feat, as well as Warlocks with the Book of Ancient Secrets, can write spells into a spellbook or a ritual book.
The spell you copy could be on a non-magical scroll (a regular piece of paper, let's say), but the origin of that regular piece of paper is undefined in the rules. How these pieces of paper are created could be determined by a houserule.
Apart from that, all this fuss about the OP and the thread is overthinking things. Order of Scribes is a subclass of Wizards, so the rules about the spellbook apply in the same way to all Wizard subclasses.
up2ng - you seem bound and determine to read something into the rules that simply isn't there, no matter how many times it's explained to you. If your table is fine with it, have fun. But in my experience and probably the experience of pretty much everyone else in this thread, other tables aren't going to interpret it the way you want it to be.
Oh, you don't have to explain anything to me. I'm the one who is explaining it to you! lol
And just to be clear, I am not the original poster of this thread who was actually trying to do this in his game. I do not "want it to be" anything in particular. I would be happy to play a game using your interpretation. It wouldn't matter anyway -- wanting something doesn't change what is written.
The spellbook sidebar, which David42 quoted relevantly, tells you every rule associated with “Copying a spell into the book.” Those are the extent of the rules on getting any spell into the book.
It is exactly true that the spellbook gives rules for getting spells into the book. If there are no rules for some particular set of spells, that is not a rule by omission. In fact, it is the opposite in 5e. It is AN OMISSION of a rule for that topic. THERE IS NO RULE.
Ok, this has been explained several times now. The paragraph with the bolded subheading which says "Copying a Spell Into the Book" is NOT an exclusive, this-is-the-only-way D&D 5e game rule for writing in a spellbook.
Again, follow this through. The Wizard class has a class Feature called Spellcasting. The entire purpose of the large section of rules within this class Feature is to explain and describe the ways in which a Wizard can learn, prepare and cast his known spells. That's it. That's what the entire class Feature is all about. How to learn, prepare and castknown spells. In order to know a spell it must be learned.
How does a Wizard accomplish this? Well, there is a very detailed subsection within the Feature called "Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher" which proceeds to list and explain the methods and procedures required to learn a spell. This includes adding spells for free upon level up, copying a spell into the book, and transcribing spells that you have already prepared in your memory.
As it happens, some of this explanation for how a Wizard may learn a spell is written in a sidebar called "Your Spellbook". This is NOT (I repeat, NOT) an exhaustive list of rules describing the only ways in which a spellbook can be used across the entirety of D&D. This is simply an explanation of some very specific ways that a spellbook can be used to learn a spell when using/activating a particular CLASS FEATURE within the game. It's NOT a game-wide-level general rule. It's a specific rule within a CLASS FEATURE which describes a specific procedure for achieving a specific purpose -- learning a spell.
To postulate that this somehow dictates all of the ways that it is possible to interact with a spellbook item anywhere within the game is absolutely ludicrous. If my character wants to toss his spellbook into a bonfire, guess what happens? If my character wants to pour the entire contents of his ink bottle all over the page, guess what happens? These aren't even things I would have to roll for -- these are auto-success actions that my character could take which are not specified anywhere within the Your Spellbook sidebar.
I have a genuine question. If you are not using any of the Wizard class rules for the Wizard's subclass of Order of the scribes to determine how the spellbook works, like the wizard spellcasting rule
Spellbook
At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice. Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
that you'd have to use for any subclass rule involving spells, casting, or spellbooks and if you aren't using the spellbook sidebar (which David42 helpfully quoted earlier) then what rules ARE you using to determine how the spellbook works and what can and cannot go into it?
Ok, let's break this down. It's probably easiest to start with your last question and work our way back in this case.
The general rule for a spellbook in D&D 5e is found in Chapter 5:
Spellbook. [ 50 gp, 3 lbs. ] Essential for wizards, a spellbook is a leather-bound tome with 100 blank vellum pages suitable for recording spells.
The specific rules for how a Wizard might use his Spellcasting Class Feature to learn a spell are found in Chapter 3. This includes information contained within the Your Spellbook sidebar.
The Wizard class rules do not determine "how the spellbook works" per se, they contain a Feature which offers specific methods and procedures for how a Wizard can learn, prepare and cast known spells. This involves interacting with a spellbook in a specific way (out of all of the infinite possible ways) in order to follow those procedures.
Your spellbook is indeed the repository of the Wizard spells you know. Similarly, my laundry basket is the repository of the dirty T-Shirts that I own. But there's a lot of other stuff in my laundry basket as well. Or, sometimes there's not. It depends.
Ok, this has been explained several times now. The paragraph with the bolded subheading which says "Copying a Spell Into the Book" is NOT an exclusive, this-is-the-only-way D&D 5e game rule for writing in a spellbook.
Yeah? What are the other rules?
Again, follow this through. The Wizard class has a class Feature called Spellcasting. The entire purpose of the large section of rules within this class Feature is to explain and describe the ways in which a Wizard can learn, prepare and cast his known spells. That's it. That's what the entire class Feature is all about. How to learn, prepare and castknown spells. In order to know a spell it must be learned.
No, it is their spellcasting feature. Any other feature that refers to spells, casting, or spell slots refers back to their spellcasting feature. Any other feature that refers to a spellbook must be a wizard class or subclass feature -- since the wizard class is the only class that uses one -- and must refer back to the spellbook rules in this spellcasting feature. Unless you know of other printed rules on spellbooks.
How does a Wizard accomplish this? Well, there is a very detailed subsection within the Feature called "Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher" which proceeds to list and explain the methods and procedures required to learn a spell. This includes adding spells for free upon level up, copying a spell into the book, and transcribing spells that you have already prepared in your memory.
As it happens, some of this explanation for how a Wizard may learn a spell is written in a sidebar called "Your Spellbook". This is NOT (I repeat, NOT) an exhaustive list of rules describing the only ways in which a spellbook can be used across the entirety of D&D. This is simply an explanation of some very specific ways that a spellbook can be used to learn a spell when using/activating a particular CLASS FEATURE within the game. It's NOT a game-wide-level general rule. It's a specific rule within a CLASS FEATURE which describes a specific procedure for achieving a specific purpose -- learning a spell.
Ok what are the other rules? Where are they printed?
To postulate that this somehow dictates all of the ways that it is possible to interact with a spellbook item anywhere within the game is absolutely ludicrous. If my character wants to toss his spellbook into a bonfire, guess what happens? If my character wants to pour the entire contents of his ink bottle all over the page, guess what happens? These aren't even things I would have to roll for -- these are auto-success actions that my character could take which are not specified anywhere within the Your Spellbook sidebar.
There are rules regarding destroying a spellbook in that sidebar. Have you read it? I'm starting to wonder.
I have a genuine question. If you are not using any of the Wizard class rules for the Wizard's subclass of Order of the scribes to determine how the spellbook works, like the wizard spellcasting rule
Spellbook
At 1st level, you have a spellbook containing six 1st-level wizard spells of your choice. Your spellbook is the repository of the wizard spells you know, except your cantrips, which are fixed in your mind.
that you'd have to use for any subclass rule involving spells, casting, or spellbooks and if you aren't using the spellbook sidebar (which David42 helpfully quoted earlier) then what rules ARE you using to determine how the spellbook works and what can and cannot go into it?
Ok, let's break this down. It's probably easiest to start with your last question and work our way back in this case.
The general rule for a spellbook in D&D 5e is found in Chapter 5:
Spellbook. [ 50 gp, 3 lbs. ] Essential for wizards, a spellbook is a leather-bound tome with 100 blank vellum pages suitable for recording spells.
This is an item description not conveying any rules. But it does tell us the book is for wizards and for recording spells. Guess where those rules for wizards recording spells appear? Yep, that's right. The wizard class.
The specific rules for how a Wizard might use his Spellcasting Class Feature to learn a spell are found in Chapter 3. This includes information contained within the Your Spellbook sidebar.
The Wizard class rules do not determine "how the spellbook works" per se, they contain a Feature which offers specific methods and procedures for how a Wizard can learn, prepare and cast known spells. This involves interacting with a spellbook in a specific way (out of all of the infinite possible ways) in order to follow those procedures.
What other rules exist for the spellbook?
Your spellbook is indeed the repository of the Wizard spells you know. Similarly, my laundry basket is the repository of the dirty T-Shirts that I own. But there's a lot of other stuff in my laundry basket as well. Or, sometimes there's not. It depends.
Yeah, but would you put your homework or puppy or whatever else you put in your laundry basket also in the washing machine? Nevermind. I'm afraid of your answer.
Your argument is "I don't care if the rules only say one thing about a topic, they don't exclude anything else"? Really? Really?
No.
What I keep trying to get you to realize is that you seem to think that the Your Spellbook sidebar is a general rule about spellbook usage when in fact it is actually a specific rule of a Feature that provides the procedure for learning a spell. That procedure happens to involve a specific usage of a spellbook. I'm not sure how I can spell that out any more clearly.
It's not a spellbook rule. It's a How To Learn a Spell rule.
This rule does not mean that I can't do other things with the spellbook. It just means that if I do other things I don't get to learn the spell.
Any other feature that refers to spells, casting, or spell slots refers back to their spellcasting feature.
This is incorrect for a ton of reasons. First, there are all sorts of Features and Feats in the game which explicitly cast spells without using any Spellcasting Feature. The Spellcasting Feature only interacts with your known spells. As an example, a high level Monk has a feature that gives him the ability to cast the Astral Projection spell and Monks don't even have a Spellcasting Feature.
Second, the simple reference to words such as "spells" in no way triggers the need to use your Spellcasting Feature. The Spellcasting Feature does what it says it does when you use the Feature, just like how any other Feature works. In the case of the Wizard, this feature provides instructions for how to learn spells and the ability to then prepare and cast those known spells. A phrase such as "a spell in your spellbook" doesn't cause us to use the Spellcasting Feature for any reason. Why would it? This would be sort of like saying a Fighter must automatically use the Second Wind Feature any time that we are using another Feature which uses the term "hit points" somewhere in its description. That makes no sense. The Feature serves a specific purpose -- you use Features to accomplish something specific. A Wizard uses his Spellcasting Feature specifically to learn a spell or to prepare or cast a known spell. If a Feature isn't specifically talking about taking one of those courses of action then it does not use the Spellcasting Feature.
Any other feature that refers to a spellbook must be a wizard class or subclass feature -- since the wizard class is the only class that uses one -- and must refer back to the spellbook rules in this spellcasting feature. Unless you know of other printed rules on spellbooks.
Again, you're thinking of the Your Spellbook sidebar as spellbook rules. These are actually rules for how to learn a spell. The mere mention of a spellbook in another Feature does not necessarily require the usage of the Spellcasting Feature unless that Feature is actually trying to accomplish something that is provided by the Spellcasting Feature, such as learning, preparing or casting known spells.
Ok what are the other rules? Where are they printed?
What other rules exist for the spellbook?
Ok honestly this is some odd behavior. What is your fascination with asking the same irrelevant question over and over again? it's off topic.
Why do you want other rules for the spellbook item? Do you want to accomplish something specific by using your spellbook in a way that's not mentioned anywhere? Do you want the spellbook to be magical? To be bright pink? To be protected by some sort of enchantment which creates a forcefield that prevents anyone from touching its pages with a writing instrument? RAW, there are no such rules. There is only the item that can be purchased for 50 gp and the ability to interact with that item in common sense ways.
I'm actually really confused why you keep asking for more rules. It's weird. It sort of seems like you are trying to make a point but it is escaping me.
Maybe let's try going back to an old rule of thumb that we often see on this forum: Features do what they say they do. Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't understand why it's odd for me to ask for rules support. Just because you can't provide it? The rules of 5e tell you what you can do. Rules by omission do not exist. So if you can't answer that simple question of "cite some sources" then you are not talking about anything relevant to the conversation.
You keep asserting things without showing rules. If you are not discussing the rules associated with the question, what is the value of what you are saying?
Features do what they say. Seemingly unless you don't like where they're printed. There is a feature that describes "Copying a spell into the book", but you keep saying that feature doesn't do what it says. Even though that sidebar doesn't exist as part of "Learning spells of level 1 or higher" (the sidebar in fact is above the "Spellbook" section of the print books, and sidebars are generally not inline text -- they're sidebars separate from the inline text for easy access when you might have to refer back to them).
When features refer to other rules, we use those rules. The only rules defining the filling of the spellbook appear in the wizard base class. Ignoring those rules is incompatible with how 5e works as a game. The rules for the feature are the most general version of the rules. There are no more specific rules to use instead of the sidebar within the scribes subclass, which means the sidebar still applies. If a specific rule isn't excepted by another, then the general still applies. This is how this game works; if you disagree here then you are just wrong.
When a "specific rule" covers a specific case, we use that rule and outside of that specific case use the general rule. We don't just ignore rules when convenient. You would agree that order of scribes is a subclass of wizard, correct? So all scribes wizards are wizards, correct? Therefore a scribes wizard would follow all wizard general rules barring an exception in the subclass? So when a scribes wizard casts a spell, they are doing it using the wizard's spellcasting feature? Or whenever they do anything else that would be defined in the wizard's spellcasting feature? I.e. The specific case of the scribes wizard doesn't make any exceptions to the wizard spellcasting rules regarding getting a spell into your book. So we've only got what is the "general" rule from the wizard class.
Again, your example is extremely pertinent. It would be like when a Rogue uses Rend Mind. Rend mind refers to Sneak attack. Do we ignore sneak attack rules for that feature?
Another point of failure of your mechanics understanding: The only rule on a subject is the only rule on a subject no matter where it's printed. If a rule is the only way to get something done, then that is the only way to get that thing done. If you think that a rule requires you to be learning a spell to get a spell into your spell book, then THE CORRECT RULES CONCLUSION should be "I need to learn this spell to get it in my book" and not "since i'm not learning it, rules don't apply."
ok, i know that a wizard can't cast a druid spell even if it's in their book,
but what i am asking is can a wizard copy a druid spell into their book if they find a scroll,
or if you take a level in druid can you write a druid spell in the book, you can't cast it as a wizard spell,
TLDR: is it possible to write a Druid spell in a wizard spellbook
TL;DR answer is NO.
A wizards spellbook is the wizards’ repository of knowledge and information and experiences with magic and the workings thereof.
That same spellbook also becomes a sort of arcane focus due to constantly being handled and oftentimes the “base” of a wizards understanding of how certain magicks work. ( notice the spelling )
So, while a wizard could certainly make notes on how druid magicks might work, the ability to produce the same effects by mimicking the druid innate ability to focus “wild” magicks via differing techniques is an ability a wizard just can not easily replicate.
Therefore it is the understanding that the magical energy that a spell uses is of a different resonant signature and incompatible in storage containment.
Though, it’s all just theory if you just think about it.
I don't understand why it's odd for me to ask for rules support. Just because you can't provide it? The rules of 5e tell you what you can do. Rules by omission do not exist. So if you can't answer that simple question of "cite some sources" then you are not talking about anything relevant to the conversation.
You keep asserting things without showing rules. If you are not discussing the rules associated with the question, what is the value of what you are saying?
Ok, it looks like you were serious about the rules support stuff. At this point it appears that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game is played according to the RAW for the game. In that case, we'll have to back up quite a bit now to get you caught up:
The role of the DM during the flow of the game is described in the Introduction like this:
One player, however, takes on the role of the Dungeon Master (DM), the game’s lead storyteller and referee.
the DM determines the results of the adventurers’ actions and narrates what they experience. Because the DM can improvise to react to anything the players attempt, D&D is infinitely flexible, and each adventure can be exciting and unexpected.
The section called "How To Play" describes the 3 steps which repeat in order to create the flow of the game:
1. The DM describes the environment.
2. The players describe what they want to do.
3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions.
The point is that the player is free and encouraged to have their characters try absolutely anything that you can imagine. The DM applies whichever rules are relevant for the situation, which may or may not exist, and determines the outcome.
It is quite literally impossible for there to be a rule for every possible action that a character might attempt to make in the game. There are an infinite number of possibilities for exactly what they might do. A rule book that has a separate rule for each and every one of an infinite number of possibilities would be an infinitely long book. That's not happening.
Instead, the game provides a system of tools that a DM can use to adjudicate any situation. For example, a DM can ask for an ability check compared against a DC for the given situation if that situation has a chance of success and a chance of failure. Or, if the situation is easy enough to accomplish, the DM can declare an auto-success. If the situation is impossible, the DM can declare an auto-failure. A system like this is vastly superior to a DM saying something like, "well, there's no rule that tells us what happens in this exact situation, so I guess you just can't do it". Games like that last about 5 minutes.
Notice also in the Introduction in the section called "Using These Rules", it isn't until we get down to Part 2 that we see the following:
Part 2 details the rules of how to play the game, beyond the basics described in this introduction. That part covers the kinds of die rolls you make to determine success or failure at the tasks your character attempts, and describes the three broad categories of activity in the game: exploration, interaction, and combat.
Part 2 of the rules covers Chapters 7, 8 and 9. Of particular importance we can see that Chapter 3, which describes character classes and their Features, is NOT within Part 2 of the rule book. These core rules can be applied to all situations which can occur within the game because that's where the system of tools that a DM can use to adjudicate any situation is provided for us. If you want rules support for trivial or unusual activities, I will simply point you in the direction of the entirety of Chapters 7, 8 and 9 because those are the rules of how to play the game.
Again, throwing up your hands and saying that there's no rule for a given situation and therefore it cannot be done just isn't how the rules work and it isn't how the RAW version of the game is played.
Even though that sidebar doesn't exist as part of "Learning spells of level 1 or higher" (the sidebar in fact is above the "Spellbook" section of the print books, and sidebars are generally not inline text -- they're sidebars separate from the inline text for easy access when you might have to refer back to them).
Ummm . . .
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
. . . On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).
There is a feature that describes "Copying a spell into the book", but you keep saying that feature doesn't do what it says.
First of all, no there isn't any such Feature. There is a Spellcasting Feature. This subsection with the heading of "Copying a spell into the book" is basically one bullet point out of a few possible ways that exist for a Wizard to learn a spell. That's what the CLASS FEATURE is saying there and that's what it does.
----------
You are fundamentally misunderstanding how class Features work. A Feature describes something specific that either passively happens to the character or that the character can actively choose to do. Then, it describes the outcome of what happens if that choice is made . . .
Now, this is very important: The Feature does NOT prevent you from making a different choice. You just don't get the outcome described in the Feature if you choose not to use the Feature. It's a simple concept but it's incredibly important for proper gameplay.
There are no more specific rules to use instead of the sidebar within the scribes subclass, which means the sidebar still applies.
Wrong. The sidebar only applies when a Wizard is attempting to learn a spell. If any other action is taken in the entire game, the sidebar does NOT prevent it. All that happens is that you don't get the outcome of learning the spell.
When a seperate Feature uses a phrase whereby that Feature searches through the spellbook for "a spell in your spellbook", this has absolutely nothing to do with attempting to learn a spell. The sidebar has nothing at all to do with searching through a spellbook. The sidebar simply does not apply. These rules have nothing to do with each other.
If you think that a rule requires you to be learning a spell to get a spell into your spell book, then THE CORRECT RULES CONCLUSION should be "I need to learn this spell to get it in my book" and not "since i'm not learning it, rules don't apply."
Incorrect. This is actually backwards. I do not think that any rule requires me to be learning a spell to get a spell into my spell book. However, I do know of a rule that requires me to get a spell into my spell book in a particular way in order to learn the spell. It's one of a few ways that are given to learn a spell.
It is pretty apparent that you are intentionally missing my point with each of your posts. Maybe that is what you are doing with the rules?
Anyway my point still stands. If the rules describe exactly one way to do something, then why is your response "well, I don't want to do it that way, so I'm not following any rules" rather than following that one way presented?
Again, for real, your position is wrong, and your defense of it is non-rules adjacent exactly because it ignores every rule presented on the subject.
Again, throwing up your hands and saying that there's no rule for a given situation and therefore it cannot be done just isn't how the rules work and it isn't how the RAW version of the game is played.
Right, There is no rule for giving wizards sneak attack, so i throw my hands up when people suggest it. Yours is a similarly insulting suggestion.
Even though that sidebar doesn't exist as part of "Learning spells of level 1 or higher" (the sidebar in fact is above the "Spellbook" section of the print books, and sidebars are generally not inline text -- they're sidebars separate from the inline text for easy access when you might have to refer back to them).
Ummm . . .
Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
. . . On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spellbook (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).
Your lack of understanding on this is problematic for your ability to contribute meaningfully to this thread. There is a Spellbook sub heading within Spellcasting AND the "Your Spellbook" sidebar. Many of the subheadings within spellcasting all refer to the spellbook. The sidebar details information on your spellbook, but is not a part of any of those sub headings. Note how "Learning Spells..." refers you to a separate part of the section, not more text under that sub heading -- as if it is not part of that sub heading (Again, I will remind you that the sidebar appears in a different location in the print book -- as a sidebar). Note also how Spellbook is one of those sub headings as well. Note what that sub heading has to say on the spellbook -- a repository for wizard spells.
And again, a reference in one sub heading does not make an element part of that subheading. The attack action does not belong to Extra Attack. Sneak Attack does not belong to Rend Mind. Referencing a thing does not mean the thing belongs to the referencing text. Chapter 10 doesn't belong to the wizard spellcasting feature because it says "See Spell Rules for the general rules..." It is a reference to another part of the rules.
As this is not the homebrew forum, this is not the place to make up rules that do not exist in the game. And as this has derailed for so long, I will be locking this thread.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
It is exactly true that the spellbook gives rules for getting spells into the book. If there are no rules for some particular set of spells, that is not a rule by omission. In fact, it is the opposite in 5e. It is AN OMISSION of a rule for that topic. THERE IS NO RULE.
Your logic is flawed and not helpful trying to understand 5e.
Aasimar, thank you for the summary. You pretty much got it. Except that it would have to be a legitimate spell to be considered a spell. Unless your game world allows you to make up your own spells you wouldn't be able to do that.
I'll leave it to you to decide how overpowered this really is. After all, the original poster was shown that there actually is a wizard spell that has the damage type he was looking for so he could have properly added that spell instead of going through this trouble. So how big of a deal is it really?
Unfortunately, "that clearly isn't the intent" isn't usually good enough evidence in a RAW discussion.
I think the big picture issue is if there are lots of other Features in the game that use this wording.
For example, the Ritual portion of the Wizard's Spellcasting Feature does not seem to technically require the spell to be a known spell. But let's not digress too far into the weeds.
The ritual portion of the Wizard's spellcasting feature tells you the ritual has to come from the wizard's spellbook. Which requires using the spellbook rules. Which means it must be a wizard spell that was gained on level up or added with time and money.
It is the same as with subclass features that refer back to class features and class rules. It isn't as confusing as you make it seem. It's all the same idea that you're having trouble understanding.
I have a genuine question. If you are not using any of the Wizard class rules for the Wizard's subclass of Order of the scribes to determine how the spellbook works, like the wizard spellcasting rule
that you'd have to use for any subclass rule involving spells, casting, or spellbooks and if you aren't using the spellbook sidebar (which David42 helpfully quoted earlier) then what rules ARE you using to determine how the spellbook works and what can and cannot go into it?
As far as I know, only Wizards and characters with the Ritual Caster feat, as well as Warlocks with the Book of Ancient Secrets, can write spells into a spellbook or a ritual book.
The spell you copy could be on a non-magical scroll (a regular piece of paper, let's say), but the origin of that regular piece of paper is undefined in the rules. How these pieces of paper are created could be determined by a houserule.
Apart from that, all this fuss about the OP and the thread is overthinking things. Order of Scribes is a subclass of Wizards, so the rules about the spellbook apply in the same way to all Wizard subclasses.
I would rule that the wizard cannot write a druid spell anywhere.
Writing a spell comes under the heading of "creating spell scrolls". To create a spell scroll of a druid spell, you must be a druid.
Oh, you don't have to explain anything to me. I'm the one who is explaining it to you! lol
And just to be clear, I am not the original poster of this thread who was actually trying to do this in his game. I do not "want it to be" anything in particular. I would be happy to play a game using your interpretation. It wouldn't matter anyway -- wanting something doesn't change what is written.
Ok, this has been explained several times now. The paragraph with the bolded subheading which says "Copying a Spell Into the Book" is NOT an exclusive, this-is-the-only-way D&D 5e game rule for writing in a spellbook.
Again, follow this through. The Wizard class has a class Feature called Spellcasting. The entire purpose of the large section of rules within this class Feature is to explain and describe the ways in which a Wizard can learn, prepare and cast his known spells. That's it. That's what the entire class Feature is all about. How to learn, prepare and cast known spells. In order to know a spell it must be learned.
How does a Wizard accomplish this? Well, there is a very detailed subsection within the Feature called "Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher" which proceeds to list and explain the methods and procedures required to learn a spell. This includes adding spells for free upon level up, copying a spell into the book, and transcribing spells that you have already prepared in your memory.
As it happens, some of this explanation for how a Wizard may learn a spell is written in a sidebar called "Your Spellbook". This is NOT (I repeat, NOT) an exhaustive list of rules describing the only ways in which a spellbook can be used across the entirety of D&D. This is simply an explanation of some very specific ways that a spellbook can be used to learn a spell when using/activating a particular CLASS FEATURE within the game. It's NOT a game-wide-level general rule. It's a specific rule within a CLASS FEATURE which describes a specific procedure for achieving a specific purpose -- learning a spell.
To postulate that this somehow dictates all of the ways that it is possible to interact with a spellbook item anywhere within the game is absolutely ludicrous. If my character wants to toss his spellbook into a bonfire, guess what happens? If my character wants to pour the entire contents of his ink bottle all over the page, guess what happens? These aren't even things I would have to roll for -- these are auto-success actions that my character could take which are not specified anywhere within the Your Spellbook sidebar.
Ok, let's break this down. It's probably easiest to start with your last question and work our way back in this case.
The general rule for a spellbook in D&D 5e is found in Chapter 5:
The specific rules for how a Wizard might use his Spellcasting Class Feature to learn a spell are found in Chapter 3. This includes information contained within the Your Spellbook sidebar.
The Wizard class rules do not determine "how the spellbook works" per se, they contain a Feature which offers specific methods and procedures for how a Wizard can learn, prepare and cast known spells. This involves interacting with a spellbook in a specific way (out of all of the infinite possible ways) in order to follow those procedures.
Your spellbook is indeed the repository of the Wizard spells you know. Similarly, my laundry basket is the repository of the dirty T-Shirts that I own. But there's a lot of other stuff in my laundry basket as well. Or, sometimes there's not. It depends.
So it boils down to Airbud argument again?
Your argument is "I don't care if the rules only say one thing about a topic, they don't exclude anything else"? Really? Really?
No.
Yeah? What are the other rules?
No, it is their spellcasting feature. Any other feature
that refers to spells, casting, or spell slots refers back to their spellcasting feature. Any other feature that refers to a spellbook must be a wizard class or subclass feature -- since the wizard class is the only class that uses one -- and must refer back to the spellbook rules in this spellcasting feature. Unless you know of other printed rules on spellbooks.Ok what are the other rules? Where are they printed?
There are rules regarding destroying a spellbook in that sidebar. Have you read it? I'm starting to wonder.
This is an item description not conveying any rules. But it does tell us the book is for wizards and for recording spells. Guess where those rules for wizards recording spells appear? Yep, that's right. The wizard class.
What other rules exist for the spellbook?
Yeah, but would you put your homework or puppy or whatever else you put in your laundry basket also in the washing machine? Nevermind. I'm afraid of your answer.
What I keep trying to get you to realize is that you seem to think that the Your Spellbook sidebar is a general rule about spellbook usage when in fact it is actually a specific rule of a Feature that provides the procedure for learning a spell. That procedure happens to involve a specific usage of a spellbook. I'm not sure how I can spell that out any more clearly.
It's not a spellbook rule. It's a How To Learn a Spell rule.
This rule does not mean that I can't do other things with the spellbook. It just means that if I do other things I don't get to learn the spell.
This is incorrect for a ton of reasons. First, there are all sorts of Features and Feats in the game which explicitly cast spells without using any Spellcasting Feature. The Spellcasting Feature only interacts with your known spells. As an example, a high level Monk has a feature that gives him the ability to cast the Astral Projection spell and Monks don't even have a Spellcasting Feature.
Second, the simple reference to words such as "spells" in no way triggers the need to use your Spellcasting Feature. The Spellcasting Feature does what it says it does when you use the Feature, just like how any other Feature works. In the case of the Wizard, this feature provides instructions for how to learn spells and the ability to then prepare and cast those known spells. A phrase such as "a spell in your spellbook" doesn't cause us to use the Spellcasting Feature for any reason. Why would it? This would be sort of like saying a Fighter must automatically use the Second Wind Feature any time that we are using another Feature which uses the term "hit points" somewhere in its description. That makes no sense. The Feature serves a specific purpose -- you use Features to accomplish something specific. A Wizard uses his Spellcasting Feature specifically to learn a spell or to prepare or cast a known spell. If a Feature isn't specifically talking about taking one of those courses of action then it does not use the Spellcasting Feature.
Again, you're thinking of the Your Spellbook sidebar as spellbook rules. These are actually rules for how to learn a spell. The mere mention of a spellbook in another Feature does not necessarily require the usage of the Spellcasting Feature unless that Feature is actually trying to accomplish something that is provided by the Spellcasting Feature, such as learning, preparing or casting known spells.
Ok honestly this is some odd behavior. What is your fascination with asking the same irrelevant question over and over again? it's off topic.
Why do you want other rules for the spellbook item? Do you want to accomplish something specific by using your spellbook in a way that's not mentioned anywhere? Do you want the spellbook to be magical? To be bright pink? To be protected by some sort of enchantment which creates a forcefield that prevents anyone from touching its pages with a writing instrument? RAW, there are no such rules. There is only the item that can be purchased for 50 gp and the ability to interact with that item in common sense ways.
I'm actually really confused why you keep asking for more rules. It's weird. It sort of seems like you are trying to make a point but it is escaping me.
Maybe let's try going back to an old rule of thumb that we often see on this forum: Features do what they say they do. Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't understand why it's odd for me to ask for rules support. Just because you can't provide it? The rules of 5e tell you what you can do. Rules by omission do not exist. So if you can't answer that simple question of "cite some sources" then you are not talking about anything relevant to the conversation.
You keep asserting things without showing rules. If you are not discussing the rules associated with the question, what is the value of what you are saying?
Features do what they say. Seemingly unless you don't like where they're printed. There is a feature that describes "Copying a spell into the book", but you keep saying that feature doesn't do what it says. Even though that sidebar doesn't exist as part of "Learning spells of level 1 or higher" (the sidebar in fact is above the "Spellbook" section of the print books, and sidebars are generally not inline text -- they're sidebars separate from the inline text for easy access when you might have to refer back to them).
When features refer to other rules, we use those rules. The only rules defining the filling of the spellbook appear in the wizard base class. Ignoring those rules is incompatible with how 5e works as a game. The rules for the feature are the most general version of the rules. There are no more specific rules to use instead of the sidebar within the scribes subclass, which means the sidebar still applies. If a specific rule isn't excepted by another, then the general still applies. This is how this game works; if you disagree here then you are just wrong.
When a "specific rule" covers a specific case, we use that rule and outside of that specific case use the general rule. We don't just ignore rules when convenient. You would agree that order of scribes is a subclass of wizard, correct? So all scribes wizards are wizards, correct? Therefore a scribes wizard would follow all wizard general rules barring an exception in the subclass? So when a scribes wizard casts a spell, they are doing it using the wizard's spellcasting feature? Or whenever they do anything else that would be defined in the wizard's spellcasting feature? I.e. The specific case of the scribes wizard doesn't make any exceptions to the wizard spellcasting rules regarding getting a spell into your book. So we've only got what is the "general" rule from the wizard class.
Again, your example is extremely pertinent. It would be like when a Rogue uses Rend Mind. Rend mind refers to Sneak attack. Do we ignore sneak attack rules for that feature?
Another point of failure of your mechanics understanding: The only rule on a subject is the only rule on a subject no matter where it's printed. If a rule is the only way to get something done, then that is the only way to get that thing done. If you think that a rule requires you to be learning a spell to get a spell into your spell book, then THE CORRECT RULES CONCLUSION should be "I need to learn this spell to get it in my book" and not "since i'm not learning it, rules don't apply."
Looks like most of us say "no" but you want to hear yes so go with what makes you and the DM happy.
TL;DR answer is NO.
A wizards spellbook is the wizards’ repository of knowledge and information and experiences with magic and the workings thereof.
That same spellbook also becomes a sort of arcane focus due to constantly being handled and oftentimes the “base” of a wizards understanding of how certain magicks work. ( notice the spelling )
So, while a wizard could certainly make notes on how druid magicks might work, the ability to produce the same effects by mimicking the druid innate ability to focus “wild” magicks via differing techniques is an ability a wizard just can not easily replicate.
Therefore it is the understanding that the magical energy that a spell uses is of a different resonant signature and incompatible in storage containment.
Though, it’s all just theory if you just think about it.
Ok, it looks like you were serious about the rules support stuff. At this point it appears that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game is played according to the RAW for the game. In that case, we'll have to back up quite a bit now to get you caught up:
The role of the DM during the flow of the game is described in the Introduction like this:
The section called "How To Play" describes the 3 steps which repeat in order to create the flow of the game:
The point is that the player is free and encouraged to have their characters try absolutely anything that you can imagine. The DM applies whichever rules are relevant for the situation, which may or may not exist, and determines the outcome.
It is quite literally impossible for there to be a rule for every possible action that a character might attempt to make in the game. There are an infinite number of possibilities for exactly what they might do. A rule book that has a separate rule for each and every one of an infinite number of possibilities would be an infinitely long book. That's not happening.
Instead, the game provides a system of tools that a DM can use to adjudicate any situation. For example, a DM can ask for an ability check compared against a DC for the given situation if that situation has a chance of success and a chance of failure. Or, if the situation is easy enough to accomplish, the DM can declare an auto-success. If the situation is impossible, the DM can declare an auto-failure. A system like this is vastly superior to a DM saying something like, "well, there's no rule that tells us what happens in this exact situation, so I guess you just can't do it". Games like that last about 5 minutes.
Notice also in the Introduction in the section called "Using These Rules", it isn't until we get down to Part 2 that we see the following:
Part 2 of the rules covers Chapters 7, 8 and 9. Of particular importance we can see that Chapter 3, which describes character classes and their Features, is NOT within Part 2 of the rule book. These core rules can be applied to all situations which can occur within the game because that's where the system of tools that a DM can use to adjudicate any situation is provided for us. If you want rules support for trivial or unusual activities, I will simply point you in the direction of the entirety of Chapters 7, 8 and 9 because those are the rules of how to play the game.
Again, throwing up your hands and saying that there's no rule for a given situation and therefore it cannot be done just isn't how the rules work and it isn't how the RAW version of the game is played.
Ummm . . .
YES! They do! We agree on something!
First of all, no there isn't any such Feature. There is a Spellcasting Feature. This subsection with the heading of "Copying a spell into the book" is basically one bullet point out of a few possible ways that exist for a Wizard to learn a spell. That's what the CLASS FEATURE is saying there and that's what it does.
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You are fundamentally misunderstanding how class Features work. A Feature describes something specific that either passively happens to the character or that the character can actively choose to do. Then, it describes the outcome of what happens if that choice is made . . .
Now, this is very important: The Feature does NOT prevent you from making a different choice. You just don't get the outcome described in the Feature if you choose not to use the Feature. It's a simple concept but it's incredibly important for proper gameplay.
Correct.
Wrong. The sidebar only applies when a Wizard is attempting to learn a spell. If any other action is taken in the entire game, the sidebar does NOT prevent it. All that happens is that you don't get the outcome of learning the spell.
When a seperate Feature uses a phrase whereby that Feature searches through the spellbook for "a spell in your spellbook", this has absolutely nothing to do with attempting to learn a spell. The sidebar has nothing at all to do with searching through a spellbook. The sidebar simply does not apply. These rules have nothing to do with each other.
Incorrect. This is actually backwards. I do not think that any rule requires me to be learning a spell to get a spell into my spell book. However, I do know of a rule that requires me to get a spell into my spell book in a particular way in order to learn the spell. It's one of a few ways that are given to learn a spell.
If you're referring to me, I do not "want to hear" anything in particular. I am simply discussing the rules as they are written.
It is pretty apparent that you are intentionally missing my point with each of your posts. Maybe that is what you are doing with the rules?
Anyway my point still stands. If the rules describe exactly one way to do something, then why is your response "well, I don't want to do it that way, so I'm not following any rules" rather than following that one way presented?
Again, for real, your position is wrong, and your defense of it is non-rules adjacent exactly because it ignores every rule presented on the subject.
I cut a lot of irrelevant junk and this is still too long.
Right, There is no rule for giving wizards sneak attack, so i throw my hands up when people suggest it. Yours is a similarly insulting suggestion.
Your lack of understanding on this is problematic for your ability to contribute meaningfully to this thread. There is a Spellbook sub heading within Spellcasting AND the "Your Spellbook" sidebar. Many of the subheadings within spellcasting all refer to the spellbook. The sidebar details information on your spellbook, but is not a part of any of those sub headings. Note how "Learning Spells..." refers you to a separate part of the section, not more text under that sub heading -- as if it is not part of that sub heading (Again, I will remind you that the sidebar appears in a different location in the print book -- as a sidebar). Note also how Spellbook is one of those sub headings as well. Note what that sub heading has to say on the spellbook -- a repository for wizard spells.
And again, a reference in one sub heading does not make an element part of that subheading. The attack action does not belong to Extra Attack. Sneak Attack does not belong to Rend Mind. Referencing a thing does not mean the thing belongs to the referencing text. Chapter 10 doesn't belong to the wizard spellcasting feature because it says "See Spell Rules for the general rules..." It is a reference to another part of the rules.
Wolf Wolf Wolf.......... let it go. Just back away and let it go.
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ModeratorAs this is not the homebrew forum, this is not the place to make up rules that do not exist in the game. And as this has derailed for so long, I will be locking this thread.
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