Okay, so I know this has been brought up before, but the answer I am seeing seems wrong. The question is, does the bonus action on pole-master use the d4 from the feat, or the d8+ from the spell Shillelagh when used together. The general consensus is that the d4 is a bonus damage of the feat, not the weapon. In 2014 Jeremy Crawford replied to this question by simply saying it's the d4 with no amplifying reason.
The issue is that the feat doesn't say it's a bonus damage, but a weapon damage. Secondly, The Tasha's Cauldron of Everything overruled Crawford when it says that Exception Rules always supersedes the General Rules. A weapon with the same damage dice is a general rule. A spell effect is an Exception Rule as it doesn't always apply.
Now for the exact wording.
Pole-Arm Mastery:Pole Strike. Immediately after you take the Attack action and attack with a Quarterstaff, a Spear, or a weapon that has the Heavy and Reach properties, you can use a Bonus Action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. The weapon deals Bludgeoning damage, and the weapon’s damage diefor this attack is a d4.
Shillelagh: A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8. If the attack deals damage, it can be Force damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).
I bolded and underlined the relevant words here. In Pole-Arm Mastery it clearly says the Staff's weapon damage die is a d4. It doesn't say it's a bonus damage added to the normal damage. That means, the Staff damage when used as a bonus action, or the backend of the staff is always a d4. It's a general rule. The Weapon is a staff, and its Damage Dice is a d4 when used as a Bonus Action. Note that it says "Weapon's Damage Die" is a d4 damage. That's a possessive. That means the d4 is a property of the weapon, not the Feat.
The spell Shillelagh has 2 key Properties in its description. First, its weapons damage dice when the spell is used becomes a d8. That means the spell has altered the properties of the weapon. It says the damage dice BECOMES a d8. This means the damage dice changes from one thing to another when this Exception Rule is applied. It's basically saying if the Weapon has a damage dice of 1 thing, it BECOMES a d8.
Secondly, the damage becomes Force damage. This also implies that the damage done by the staff using Shillelagh is not the same damage done in the Feat. The Feat does Blunt damage only. The properties of the weapon are d4 Bludgeoning. The Properties of the spell change the weapon properties to d8 Force.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I seriously can't find anything to back up the consensus that the Feat overrules the Spell. The explanations I have seen in old posts don't seem to jive with the actual wording, and directly contradict Tasha's. Overall, I don't see this particularly game breaking, considering all the other spell cheats, but I would like know if there is some reason i am completely off base here.
I was hoping someone had a better take, or even better, the WoTC's guys could give a new ruling with a little more detail behind the reasoning.
Specific beats general, Pole Strike says the weapon's damage die for the attack is a d4, this is more specific than Shillelagh changing a weapon's damage die to a d8. Thus the d4 of Pole Strike wins out over Shillelagh for Pole Strike.
If I cast shillelagh on my quarterstaff and have the Polearm Master feat, does the bonus attack use a d4 or a d8 for damage?
The benefit from Polearm Master applies to the opposite end of the weapon and always uses a d4 for damage rather than the weapon’s normal damage die. This is true for a quarterstaff enhanced with shillelagh just as it is for a normal one.
I'm with you Dudeoutlaw but the law of the land says it stays a 1d4. I would just recommend asking your DM for a house rule. Going from a 1d4 to 1d8 at low levels isn't going to break the campaign and the rule of cool normally wins the day. But in Organized play it's staying a 1d4.
Except the d4 is the damage of any blunt end of a pole arm. That's general, and something the feat says is a property of the weapon.. Shillelagh is adding magic damage, not just a damage die change and requires a spell cast. Thats more specific.
If I was to use the blunt end of a polearm as a standard action, what would the damage die be? This is not answered in the weapons section, but because its part of a feat that says the blunt end of a weapon is a d4, it can be assumed if i use the polearms bottom half as an action, its a d4.
Shillelegh doesn't say, except for the other end of the stick. It says the weapon damage die changes. That's it. No more, no less. Polearm master has a weapon damage dice. It specifically says, weapon damage dice. Therefore it changes.
Except the d4 is the damage of any blunt end of a pole arm. That's general, and something the feat says is a property of the weapon.. Shillelagh is adding magic damage, not just a damage die change and requires a spell cast. Thats more specific.
If I was to use the blunt end of a polearm as a standard action, what would the damage die be? This is not answered in the weapons section, but because its part of a feat that says the blunt end of a weapon is a d4, it can be assumed if i use the polearms bottom half as an action, its a d4.
your understanding of general and specific are just off. Being a spell or not being a spell has nothing to do with what is general or what is specific. Pole Strike specifies that the attack uses a d4, it specifically replaces whatever the weapon die is, shillelagh is changing the weapon die but the weapon die is replaced thus shillelagh's 1d8 is negated and the attack uses 1d4, this is the only way to read this interaction with standard D&D conventions.
First of all, this is not clear-cut one way or another.
However, look at it this way.
Weapons have a damage die.
The spell changes the damage die.
If you take the bonus attack, the ability overrides the already-changed damage die for that attack. (But it can still be force, that's an optional choice at the time of damage infliction.)
Everyone is correct that replacing an attack's damage die is more specific, and moreover Polearm Master is one of the strongest and most versatile feats in the game:
Pole Strike lets you use your ability modifier on the damage roll regardless of your Fighting Styles (or lack thereof.) Dual wielders need a Fighting Style to do that.
Pole Strike gives you a reliable bonus action attack and reaction attack even if you're wielding a shield. The Hew feature of Great Weapon Master works with one-handed weapons but requires critical hits; there's only two weapons with Cleave in the game and they're both Two-Handed and Heavy. There is no Cleave option for dual wielders.
Halberds are one of those two Cleave weapons and they get to do all the Polearm Master shenanigans on top of having Reach and working with Great Weapon Master's bonus damage.
Quarterstaves can Topple with their reaction and bonus attacks, and can benefit from both Dueling (with a shield) and Great Weapon Fighting fighting styles. There's no weapons that are both Light and Topple, which makes it tricky to fit a Topple weapon into Dual Wielder builds.
Same thing applies to spears with Sap, and spears have the added benefit of being throwable.
Halberds, lances, glaives and pikes get bonus damage from Great Weapon Master, and that's another good multi-pupose feat since the bonus damage works with Heavy ranged weapons like longbows and the critical hit bonus attack works with one-handed weapons.
If someone buffs your polearm with Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon, you get the bonus damage on all of those bonus and reaction attacks and cleaves. The same isn't true for dual wielders.
There's no reason to think Pole Strike isn't working exactly as intended and also no reason to beg the DM to house rule it to be stronger.
Think about it like this: the reason that shillelagh does more damage is because it is imbued with nature's power, but this is assuming you are swinging with full power. The reason that using polearm master with a quarterstaff does less damage when you use your bonus action to make an attack with the opposite end of the weapon is because you are swinging with less power on the second strike. Using your logic, you would just roll the quarterstaff's damage twice if you use the polearm master bonus attack because it's a staff and it doesn't really matter what side you hit with. However, this is not how polearm master is meant to be interpreted as a attack. It is meant to be interpreted that you are swinging slower and therefore doing less damage the second time around.
I agree with the consensus. They are both specific rules.
Shillelagh causes the weapon's damage die to become a d8 "for the duration". This is a semi-permanent change to that weapon's stat on an ongoing basis.
Then, at the particular moment that you decide to use the Pole-Arm Mastery feat's Pole Strike feature, the rules for that feature override whatever the current stat is for the weapon's damage die. The opportunity to use this feature at a particular moment is triggered by a specific event -- "Immediately after you take the Attack action and attack with a Quarterstaff". When this trigger occurs, you have the option to use the feature which defines a specific type of attack that you can make in this situation. "For this attack", the weapon's damage die "IS" a d4.
Think about it like this: the reason that shillelagh does more damage is because it is imbued with nature's power, but this is assuming you are swinging with full power. The reason that using polearm master with a quarterstaff does less damage when you use your bonus action to make an attack with the opposite end of the weapon is because you are swinging with less power on the second strike. Using your logic, you would just roll the quarterstaff's damage twice if you use the polearm master bonus attack because it's a staff and it doesn't really matter what side you hit with. However, this is not how polearm master is meant to be interpreted as a attack. It is meant to be interpreted that you are swinging slower and therefore doing less damage the second time around.
You making a false narrative to try and prove your arguement. What does "swinging with full power" with a strength of 4 look like, probably a very gentle tap but the staff with shillelagh is hitting as hard as any high strength character. The damage of the weapon and how hard you swing it is irrelivent the spell is doing all the work.
Both specify a weapon damage dice, the question is does spell override the feat. Lets look at the wording of the two.
Polearm Master states "Bonus Action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. The weapon deals Bludgeoning damage, and the weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4."
The Shillelagh spell states "For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8. If the attack deals damage, it can be Force damage."
So the Polearm Master states what the damage die is for that attack and the Shillelagh spell changes the damage die to a D8(or more).
If you rule that it is a D4 damage then the Bonus attack has to be made with Strength and does Bludgeoning damage. You can not just mix and match.
I think that is fairly clearly worded how these 2 rules interact with each other with the 2 words, IS and BECOMES. The bonus attack should do the Shillelagh spell damage.
If you think this is too powerful a Monk can do this without a spell and without the feat.
This is an old thread rooted in Jeremy Crawford thinking a quarterstaff is a big club with one striking end or ignoring their actual use in favor of game "balance". From a real world perspective, Shillelagh not affecting the Polearm Master damage will never make sense. There isn't really a point of arguing it.
That said, the order of operations when using Polearm Master with Shillelagh. Normally, I believe the currently active player would decide the order of effects. However, Sage Advice and Errata carried forward the ruling from 2014 and RAW, "The benefit from Polearm Master applies to the opposite end of the weapon and always uses a d4 for damage rather than the weapon’s normal damage die. This is true for a Quarterstaff enhanced with Shillelagh just as it is for a normal one."
WoTC official ruling was Polearm Master is more specific than Shillelaghfor this attack. Balance-wise though, what's the actual DPR difference when factoring average & crit damage ?
By level 4 whatever difference is likely minimal, even moreso at higher tier but the more math-savy could probably tell more than me.
WoTC official ruling was Polearm Master is more specific than Shillelaghfor this attack. Balance-wise though, what's the actual DPR difference when factoring average & crit damage ? By level 4 whatever difference is likely minimal, even moreso at higher tier but the more math-savy could probably tell more than me.
The difference will scale up as Shillelagh scales up. d4 -> d8, then d4 -> d10, then d4 -> d12, etc. Scaling from +2 to +4.5 average DPR (not counting crits, assuming you already have Shillelagh up and always hit).
The tradeoff between using your Bonus Action once to cast Shillelagh vs only using Pole Strike can vary based on build, but letting Pole Strike use Shillelagh's die will scale up and make Shillelagh more valuable as you level. (And it's irrelevant before level 4, which is usually the first level you get Polearm Master.)
The game balance reason to not let this work is that Quarterstaff is already the best (only) way to combine a Shield, the Dueling fighting style, the Topple mastery, and the Polearm Master feat. Shillelagh is a nice bonus on top of all that, already.
Okay, so I know this has been brought up before, but the answer I am seeing seems wrong. The question is, does the bonus action on pole-master use the d4 from the feat, or the d8+ from the spell Shillelagh when used together. The general consensus is that the d4 is a bonus damage of the feat, not the weapon. In 2014 Jeremy Crawford replied to this question by simply saying it's the d4 with no amplifying reason.
The issue is that the feat doesn't say it's a bonus damage, but a weapon damage. Secondly, The Tasha's Cauldron of Everything overruled Crawford when it says that Exception Rules always supersedes the General Rules. A weapon with the same damage dice is a general rule. A spell effect is an Exception Rule as it doesn't always apply.
Now for the exact wording.
Pole-Arm Mastery: Pole Strike. Immediately after you take the Attack action and attack with a Quarterstaff, a Spear, or a weapon that has the Heavy and Reach properties, you can use a Bonus Action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. The weapon deals Bludgeoning damage, and the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4.
Shillelagh: A Club or Quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8. If the attack deals damage, it can be Force damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).
I bolded and underlined the relevant words here. In Pole-Arm Mastery it clearly says the Staff's weapon damage die is a d4. It doesn't say it's a bonus damage added to the normal damage. That means, the Staff damage when used as a bonus action, or the backend of the staff is always a d4. It's a general rule. The Weapon is a staff, and its Damage Dice is a d4 when used as a Bonus Action. Note that it says "Weapon's Damage Die" is a d4 damage. That's a possessive. That means the d4 is a property of the weapon, not the Feat.
The spell Shillelagh has 2 key Properties in its description. First, its weapons damage dice when the spell is used becomes a d8. That means the spell has altered the properties of the weapon. It says the damage dice BECOMES a d8. This means the damage dice changes from one thing to another when this Exception Rule is applied. It's basically saying if the Weapon has a damage dice of 1 thing, it BECOMES a d8.
Secondly, the damage becomes Force damage. This also implies that the damage done by the staff using Shillelagh is not the same damage done in the Feat. The Feat does Blunt damage only. The properties of the weapon are d4 Bludgeoning. The Properties of the spell change the weapon properties to d8 Force.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I seriously can't find anything to back up the consensus that the Feat overrules the Spell. The explanations I have seen in old posts don't seem to jive with the actual wording, and directly contradict Tasha's. Overall, I don't see this particularly game breaking, considering all the other spell cheats, but I would like know if there is some reason i am completely off base here.
I was hoping someone had a better take, or even better, the WoTC's guys could give a new ruling with a little more detail behind the reasoning.
Specific beats general, Pole Strike says the weapon's damage die for the attack is a d4, this is more specific than Shillelagh changing a weapon's damage die to a d8. Thus the d4 of Pole Strike wins out over Shillelagh for Pole Strike.
There was a Q&A in Sage Advice Compendium about this subject.
Just to add, you could add your spellcasting ability modifier to the d4.
I'm with you Dudeoutlaw but the law of the land says it stays a 1d4. I would just recommend asking your DM for a house rule. Going from a 1d4 to 1d8 at low levels isn't going to break the campaign and the rule of cool normally wins the day. But in Organized play it's staying a 1d4.
Except the d4 is the damage of any blunt end of a pole arm. That's general, and something the feat says is a property of the weapon.. Shillelagh is adding magic damage, not just a damage die change and requires a spell cast. Thats more specific.
If I was to use the blunt end of a polearm as a standard action, what would the damage die be? This is not answered in the weapons section, but because its part of a feat that says the blunt end of a weapon is a d4, it can be assumed if i use the polearms bottom half as an action, its a d4.
Shillelegh doesn't say, except for the other end of the stick. It says the weapon damage die changes. That's it. No more, no less. Polearm master has a weapon damage dice. It specifically says, weapon damage dice. Therefore it changes.
your understanding of general and specific are just off. Being a spell or not being a spell has nothing to do with what is general or what is specific. Pole Strike specifies that the attack uses a d4, it specifically replaces whatever the weapon die is, shillelagh is changing the weapon die but the weapon die is replaced thus shillelagh's 1d8 is negated and the attack uses 1d4, this is the only way to read this interaction with standard D&D conventions.
First of all, this is not clear-cut one way or another.
However, look at it this way.
Weapons have a damage die.
The spell changes the damage die.
If you take the bonus attack, the ability overrides the already-changed damage die for that attack. (But it can still be force, that's an optional choice at the time of damage infliction.)
Everyone is correct that replacing an attack's damage die is more specific, and moreover Polearm Master is one of the strongest and most versatile feats in the game:
There's no reason to think Pole Strike isn't working exactly as intended and also no reason to beg the DM to house rule it to be stronger.
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Think about it like this: the reason that shillelagh does more damage is because it is imbued with nature's power, but this is assuming you are swinging with full power. The reason that using polearm master with a quarterstaff does less damage when you use your bonus action to make an attack with the opposite end of the weapon is because you are swinging with less power on the second strike. Using your logic, you would just roll the quarterstaff's damage twice if you use the polearm master bonus attack because it's a staff and it doesn't really matter what side you hit with. However, this is not how polearm master is meant to be interpreted as a attack. It is meant to be interpreted that you are swinging slower and therefore doing less damage the second time around.
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I agree with the consensus. They are both specific rules.
Shillelagh causes the weapon's damage die to become a d8 "for the duration". This is a semi-permanent change to that weapon's stat on an ongoing basis.
Then, at the particular moment that you decide to use the Pole-Arm Mastery feat's Pole Strike feature, the rules for that feature override whatever the current stat is for the weapon's damage die. The opportunity to use this feature at a particular moment is triggered by a specific event -- "Immediately after you take the Attack action and attack with a Quarterstaff". When this trigger occurs, you have the option to use the feature which defines a specific type of attack that you can make in this situation. "For this attack", the weapon's damage die "IS" a d4.
You making a false narrative to try and prove your arguement. What does "swinging with full power" with a strength of 4 look like, probably a very gentle tap but the staff with shillelagh is hitting as hard as any high strength character. The damage of the weapon and how hard you swing it is irrelivent the spell is doing all the work.
Both specify a weapon damage dice, the question is does spell override the feat. Lets look at the wording of the two.
Polearm Master states "Bonus Action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. The weapon deals Bludgeoning damage, and the weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4."
The Shillelagh spell states "For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon’s damage die becomes a d8. If the attack deals damage, it can be Force damage."
So the Polearm Master states what the damage die is for that attack and the Shillelagh spell changes the damage die to a D8(or more).
If you rule that it is a D4 damage then the Bonus attack has to be made with Strength and does Bludgeoning damage. You can not just mix and match.
I think that is fairly clearly worded how these 2 rules interact with each other with the 2 words, IS and BECOMES. The bonus attack should do the Shillelagh spell damage.
If you think this is too powerful a Monk can do this without a spell and without the feat.
This is an old thread rooted in Jeremy Crawford thinking a quarterstaff is a big club with one striking end or ignoring their actual use in favor of game "balance". From a real world perspective, Shillelagh not affecting the Polearm Master damage will never make sense. There isn't really a point of arguing it.
That said, the order of operations when using Polearm Master with Shillelagh. Normally, I believe the currently active player would decide the order of effects. However, Sage Advice and Errata carried forward the ruling from 2014 and RAW, "The benefit from Polearm Master applies to the opposite end of the weapon and always uses a d4 for damage rather than the weapon’s normal damage die. This is true for a Quarterstaff enhanced with Shillelagh just as it is for a normal one."
It is a dumb ruling, but it is what it is.
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My houserulings.
WoTC official ruling was Polearm Master is more specific than Shillelagh for this attack. Balance-wise though, what's the actual DPR difference when factoring average & crit damage ?
By level 4 whatever difference is likely minimal, even moreso at higher tier but the more math-savy could probably tell more than me.
The difference will scale up as Shillelagh scales up. d4 -> d8, then d4 -> d10, then d4 -> d12, etc. Scaling from +2 to +4.5 average DPR (not counting crits, assuming you already have Shillelagh up and always hit).
The tradeoff between using your Bonus Action once to cast Shillelagh vs only using Pole Strike can vary based on build, but letting Pole Strike use Shillelagh's die will scale up and make Shillelagh more valuable as you level. (And it's irrelevant before level 4, which is usually the first level you get Polearm Master.)
The game balance reason to not let this work is that Quarterstaff is already the best (only) way to combine a Shield, the Dueling fighting style, the Topple mastery, and the Polearm Master feat. Shillelagh is a nice bonus on top of all that, already.