No , the other attacks say “ with this weapon” Nick doesn’t allowing you to use either weapon first and move the second attack out of the bonus action and into the attack action freeing up the bonus action for ther features to use. At this point it’s clear to me that you have your mind made up for your restricting reading. I understand and disagree on what RAW says and means and how to read it . As I said that is still up for discussion but I think we have reached a stopping point you’re not seeing my point and I disagree with yours so it’s time to let go. Have fun gaming.
Whether or not the rule includes any clause of "with this weapon" is irrelevant to determining what the rule is actually adjudicating. The entire rule is written to explain what happens "when you make the extra attack". Nothing else is happening in that moment. You are in the midst of making the extra attack when this rule triggers and describes what to do when you make the extra attack. This rule has nothing to do with any previous attack. It's not mentioned at all. The Nick Mastery Property presents an alternate way of resolving the extra attack precisely because the weapon that is being used has the Nick property. The text is quite clear about this.
The only alternative interpretation is that because "with this weapon" is absent then you simply do not need to even possess the weapon at all. Maybe I made an attack with a Nick weapon last month -- does that allow me to use the Nick Mastery Property rule for this extra attack that I am making right now? Perhaps it does if you really believe that using the Property can be done without actually using the weapon which has that property. But that interpretation has mostly been ignored for obvious reasons. But the point is, there is literally no reason at all to assume that there is some sort of in-between thing happening here -- that you don't have to be using the weapon for this attack that's being described in the rule, but if so then you must actually use it in the previous attack . . . for some reason that's never even remotely hinted at in the actual text. Such an idea is totally arbitrary. Maybe I could say that the weapon must have been used at some point during at least one of the previous 5 attacks? Who knows? That would be totally arbitrary and unsupported by the text also.
The Nick Mastery property describes how to resolve the situation "when you make the extra attack of the Light property". We know this because the text begins like this:
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a particular way ] . . .
So to clear up some confusion, here is the official D&D video with Todd Kendrick and Crawford discussing weapon propertys and weapon mastery: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-nu-JmZ4joo. [Note- the original video was 13min and 22sec and the part that actually pertains to this discussion is in the first 3mins and 20 seconds of the original unedited video.] At 1:53 in the current version of the video, after crawford explains how nick simply allows a character that uses a weapon that has the mastery on it to make the “extra” attack that can be made as a bonus action as part of the nicking weapons attack, there is a jump cut, meaning a vital part of that conversation was cut out.
This video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O3b9q_FDHR0 created by some individual has that missing 1min and 20 seconds of missing context, and can be found starting at the 2:20 mark through the 3:15ish mark.
Oh and the first part is about crawford explaining how the light property two weapon fighting mechanics works, same as the 2014 version of Two Weapon Fighting found in the combat section, and how nick just frees the bonus action to used however the character chooses.
The missing cut material is kendrick immediately after saying “or use your bonus action to make the extra attack, in which crawfrod says yes you could, and kendrick is like so that means you can attack three times by throwing daggers, and crawford confirms that.
The freaking designer himself in an official video, that 1) uses the light property TWF to explain Nick Weapon Mastery and 2) if unedited and kept the extra bit would prove that the intent with Nick is that the weapon that has the mastery property is the one that allows the attack transfer, and that transfer can only be made if the character is wielding two light weapons, freeing up the bonus action to do bonus action stuff.
So, the answer is crawford DID explain in an official video exactly how the light two weapon fighting and Nick works, and even said that a player can make three(3) attacks with two light weapon fighting and Nick.
So if anyone is incorrect, it is those who didn’t take the time to actually understand how the rules were explained.
It’s been recorded, and the missing piece from the official video should be replaced so that people can understand what the intent from the designer was.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I can understand why they edited the original video incorrectly saying you could make 3 daggers attacks because Nick you let make the extra attack of the Light property only once per turn.
Yet Nick is worded so that the Nick mastery is only used once per turn, the fact that you still can two weapon fight with two light weapons regardless is where people believe get confused.
In 2014 you could wield two light weapons and be dual wielding, take the fighting style to gain offhand ability mod to damage, and make two attacks. The original Action Surge at level 2 allowed you to make an additional action and possibly a bonus action ( which if you think about it would be the only class feature that is specific enough to beat the general rule of only one bonus action per turn, which would have allowed a 2nd level fighter to have 4 attacks dual wielding two light weapons. The bonus action wording in Action Surge was yanked, and the fighter got nerfed.
Now, with Nick tied to the fact that wielding two light weapons is considered two weapon fighting and nick allows the bonus action extra attack to be made in the same action as first light weapons attack, and can only be used once per turn, means two weapon fighting with the first light weapon attack having the Nick Weapon Mastery the second light weapon attack via Nick transfer( leaving bonus action extra attack still possible, but can no longer nick in this turn[ but can you nick as a reaction?]) and a bonus action that can be ANY bonus action that could be available, even the two weapon fighting extra attack that was made via Nick Mastery.
TL;DR Nick is nothing more than a mastery that gives an extra attack if you are dual wielding two weapons and the first weapon used to attack has the nick mastery.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
To my understanding, Nick doesn't give any extra attack, all it does it modify the extra attack of the Light property by shifting it into the Attack action instead of Bonus Action, and limit it to 1/turn. This frees your Bonus Action to do something else with it. But not the extra attack of the Light property because you already did it this turn.
You also can't benefit from Nick and use the extra attack of the Light property as a Reaction on another creature's turn, say when you Ready, because it must be on your turn.
Thank you all. Again, Nick moves the bonus action light tWF attack into the attack action. It doesn’t specify which weapon has to be used for that attack or whether the “bonus action attack” comes first or second - only that both attacks are part of the attack action. This frees up the bonus action for other things which include certain spell castings, the dual wielding bonus action (which requires a light weapon main attack but is not the light weapon TWF bonus as it allows the use of non light weapons). Before level 5 you are effectively limited to 3 attacks in a round + a possible reaction opportunity attacks. Starting at L5 that changes to 4 attacks in a round with a possible opportunity reaction attack for a 5 th attack.
To my understanding, Nick is not a trigger for a future occurence but a modificator for a live one, written at present tense, which describes a current activity.
Essentially, Nick doesn't do any attack, it modify the extra attack of the Light property you make, when you do it, which must be with a different Light weapon than the one you attacked with when taking the Attack action, making it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. So chronologically;
When you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon.
With Nick Mastery property, when you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
Meaning this extra attack can't come first as part of the Attack action, but always 2nd +.
It doesn’t specify which weapon has to be used for that attack or whether the “bonus action attack” comes first or second - only that both attacks are part of the attack action.
The extra attack of the Light property comes second as per the rules for the Light property:
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
The Nick Mastery property doesn't know anything about two attacks. It pauses the game at the exact moment that you are right in the middle of making the extra attack of the Light property and changes the default for which resource you need to expend to make that attack. The rule is all about explaining an option for how to resolve the attack that is currently happening:
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a certain way ]".
That is fair enough but the point I was aiming at (and apparently missed) is that an initial attack with a Nick weapon followed by a second attack with a different light weapon is as valid as the other way around.
Thank you all. Again, Nick moves the bonus action light tWF attack into the attack action. It doesn’t specify which weapon has to be used for that attack or whether the “bonus action attack” comes first or second - only that both attacks are part of the attack action. This frees up the bonus action for other things which include certain spell castings, the dual wielding bonus action (which requires a light weapon main attack but is not the light weapon TWF bonus as it allows the use of non light weapons). Before level 5 you are effectively limited to 3 attacks in a round + a possible reaction opportunity attacks. Starting at L5 that changes to 4 attacks in a round with a possible opportunity reaction attack for a 5 th attack.
The weapon that has the nick mastery is the one that is used first, nick transferred attack right after that attack, bonus action still available. Each weapon has it’s own distinct weapon mastery property that is available when you make an attack with that particular weapon, as crawford described it.
That would imply that to use the nick ability with dual weapon fighting, not just the feat, the light weapon attack would have to be the first attack so the second attack immediately following it is the offhand extra attack.
2024 1st level fighter with a Scimitar ( weapon property of light ; weapon mastery of Nick) Dual Wielder Feat and offhand Weapon of BattleAxe ( weapon property of Versatile; weapon mastery Topple) and TWF( dual weapon fighting ) style feat, and your looking at a sequence of attack one scimitar, immediately followed by nick triggered battleaxe extra attack, then bonus action ( ether a third attack with battleaxe [ and if topple is effective, advantage on all attacks on proned enemy ]) , or some other bonus action taken. [ 3 attacks at level 1, and a backdoor battle master maneuver at the cost of a feat is not too bad. ]
With class or other extra attack features that allow the attack action to have multiple attacks, keeping track of the nick usage becomes a resource management problem for the character. If you use your bonus action before making an attack with a nicking weapon, then the bonus action extra attack can’t be made, as the character would not be able to make an attack as a bonus action, and if that attack can’t be made then using nick doesn’t work because it depends on the ability to make that extra attack as a bonus action. it’s part of how the design was made to prevent Nick spamming. With extra attacks from class features, or other means of Attack Action added attacks, weapon juggling becomes a factor. But the fact remains that a lot of provisional elements have to be in place for Nick to actually be effective.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The weapon that has the nick mastery is the one that is used first, nick transferred attack right after that attack, bonus action still available.
. . .
2024 1st level fighter with a Scimitar ( weapon property of light ; weapon mastery of Nick) Dual Wielder Feat and offhand Weapon of BattleAxe ( weapon property of Versatile; weapon mastery Topple) and TWF( dual weapon fighting ) style feat, and your looking at a sequence of attack one scimitar, immediately followed by nick triggered battleaxe extra attack, then bonus action ( ether a third attack with battleaxe [ and if topple is effective, advantage on all attacks on proned enemy ]) , or some other bonus action taken. [ 3 attacks at level 1, and a backdoor battle master maneuver at the cost of a feat is not too bad. ]
Where are you getting these ideas from? None of that is in the text.
In fact, the weapon with the Nick Mastery property is NOT the one that is used first. It is the one that is used second. I've already quoted the rule above where the rule for the Light property explicitly specifies that the extra attack of the Light property must occur "later on the same turn", and the Nick Mastery property pertains to the extra attack (NOT the initial attack) of the Light property: "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a particular way ] . . .". There is no text that supports the idea that the Nick Mastery property can be used at all during the initial attack, since the attack that the Nick Mastery property pertains to is explicitly the extra attack, not the initial attack.
Keep in mind also that the Nick Mastery property is written in such a way that it has nothing to do with the overall Light property mechanic. Thinking of the Light mechanic as something that all sort of goes together like a one-two punch sort of entity is a way of thinking that will cause people to go wrong here. The Nick Mastery property is unrelated to the Light property as a whole -- the scope of the rule is that it only functions WITHIN the particular attack that is specified in the rule, not the overall Light property mechanic which involves multiple attacks.
As a side note, similar issues can arise with the regular "Extra Attack" feature of the Fighter class, for example. There might be a rule or feature somewhere that allows a fighter to modify one attack that he makes on his turn in some way. It would be a mistake to think that such a rule pertains to the entirety of that Fighter's Attack Action which can contain multiple attacks. Instead, only one single attack is in play to be modified in this example. It's important to distinguish when a rule relates to an entire mechanic or Action that can involve multiple attacks and when a rule actually is talking about one specific single attack. The Nick Mastery property is all about resolving one specific single attack.
Each weapon has it’s own distinct weapon mastery property that is available when you make an attack with that particular weapon, as crawford described it.
This doesn't support your interpretation. Yes, the Mastery Property is available when you make an attack with that particular weapon, but that attack must be made in the manner that is described within the rule for that Property. In the case of the Nick Mastery property, this attack is made "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". That is the prerequisite for how you need to be making your attack in order to take advantage of the rule that is provided by the Mastery Property.
With class or other extra attack features that allow the attack action to have multiple attacks, keeping track of the nick usage becomes a resource management problem for the character. If you use your bonus action before making an attack with a nicking weapon, then the bonus action extra attack can’t be made, as the character would not be able to make an attack as a bonus action, and if that attack can’t be made then using nick doesn’t work because it depends on the ability to make that extra attack as a bonus action. it’s part of how the design was made to prevent Nick spamming.
This is pretty serious evidence that this actually does NOT work in the way that you are describing. The rule is not intended to cause any sort of resource management that needs to be tracked.
Instead, if your Bonus Action is already used, then you simply will not be able to make the extra attack of the Light property in the first place since the Light property mechanic depends on having a Bonus Action available "later on the same turn". If you cannot make the extra attack of the Light property then you cannot use the Nick property, since that property is used "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". There is no keeping track of anything involved. Either you are making the extra attack of the Light property which gives you the opportunity to use the Nick Mastery property if the weapon that is currently being used in that attack has that property, or you are not making the extra attack of the Light property, in which case the Nick Mastery property does not apply.
All right, once more into the breach… first, for paradox travellor, the light property bonus action attack MUST be with different LIGHT weapon so the battleaxe can’t be used for that attack. It can be used later for the dual wielding bonus action IF you haven’t already used your bonus action elsewhere. for paradox and Up2ng, yes the bonus action of the light property has to follow the attack action. I’ll accept that. The thing is that the Nick property doesn’t specify which weapon has to make that attack. It simply says that the attack can be made as part of the attack action not as a bonus action, and that you can do this only once. Paradox makes the ( not unreasonable) assumption that for the bonus action to get moved the Nick weapon must be used first during the attack action forcing it to stay open for the second attack. Up2ng reads the Nick ability and the light ability to say that the Nick weapon must be used second to activate Nick. However, Nick doesn’t specify when the WEAPON must be used. Most other masteries do - specifying “ when you make an attack with this weapon and hit”. Nick says NOTHING about which weapon or when just that the bonus action is moved to the attack action. Technically it’s so badly worded on this that if I’m carrying 2 shortswords and a dagger then ( in theory) the Nick property is always active because I’m carrying the dagger and I can make 2 shortsword attacks in the attack action 1 with each shortsword. Now I’m not advocating that take just pointing out that is within the bounds of the wording. RAI certainly requires that you be wielding the Nick weapon as one of your two ( or three) weapons to activate Nick. However it doesn’t specify which weapon makes the initial attack and which the bonus attack. So if you have a dagger, a short sword and a long sword and TWF and the dual wielding feat you cat throw the dagger, drawing it is part of the attack, activating Nick by making the initial attack, then drawing both swords ( as allowed by the dual wielding feat) , take the bonus attack n the attack action with the shortsword as allowed by the Nick mastery and light weapons getting your ability bonus on it as well as the dagger from the TWF style and then, finally , making a bonus action attack with the longsword , without stat bonus but with advantage thanks to the vex of the shortsword (assuming you hit), Up2ng, I think your conflating the attack and the weapon in your reading. Yes the extra attack comes second as required by the light property TWF but Nick doesn’t specify which attack the weapon bearing the Nick property has to be used on. So, to my reading it could be either one - just as long as your wielding it for one of the attacks.
To Wi1dBi11, the example I gave was a 1st level fighter with with the Dual Weilding Feat, the TWFS feat, a scimitar as the light weapon with Nick mastery, and a battleaxe( per Dual Wielding Feat ) as the second weapon. First attack is with light scimitar using nick mastery to make second following attack with battleaxe per the ability to as part of the DW feat, and Nick wording. That leaves the bonus action extra attack still available for whatever, ( in the case of the example I gave that BA could, per crawford confirmation, be the offhand[ battleaxe weapon ] bonus attack. )
if the example was say for instance, no Dual Wielding Feat, but just the Light Weapon Property of the Scimitar [ Nick mastery ] then the second weapon could be a shortsword[ Vex mastery for advantage.]
Both the light weapon property and the Dual Wielding Feat work mechanically the same way, except for the provision of the second offhand weapon. DWF has the wording that states when the first attack is made with a light property weapon, you can use your bonus action to make an extra attack with the second wielded weapon.
If using DWF and the first attack is with a light weapon that has the Nick mastery, nick grants the extra attack as a bonus action to be made after the nicking weapon attack.
So with DWF and TWFSF, a scimitar as the light nicking weapon for main hand, battleaxe for second weapon [ battleaxe is versatile meaning can be used one-handed and has topple ( on enemy con save fail, enemy is prone, and the attack thereafter are at advantage till enemy is dead or stands up.)] The videos provided with crawford talking about how the two weapon fighting and the light property works then tossing nick into that example he( crawford) described, means with just two weapons and weapon mastery usage, a character can make three attacks. [ with just the light weapon property and two light weapons, first a scimitar with nick, second weapon is a shortsword [ light; vex] as second attack per nick extra , and bonus action attack ( per light weapon two weapon fighting ability ), made with shortsword.
Nick isn’t used in the bonus action attack, it is used before a bonus action is used, and nick states that instead of using your bonus action to make a second attack with the different weapon, that attack can be made after attacking with the light nicking weapon, and can only be used ( nick mastery ) once per turn.
So I understand how dual weapon fighting works in the new rules, nick uses dual weapon fighting to give a player a third attack whether you are just using light weapon dual wielding or using the Dual Wielding Feat. [ the DWF enhanced feature uses a light weapon for the first attack so as to allow nick mastery to be incorporated, ( can’t put nick on a longsword can you?) ] The light property is the same as dual wielding feat, first attack is with a light weapon so nick can jump in get an extra attack, and instead of two attacks you get three.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Now 2nd level fighter, new problem, how does action surge work with dual weapon fighting and nick?
Per general rules, only one BA per turn, and dual weapon fighting uses bonus actions.
Do you get your bonus action use again if you surge, or if you use it early, are you FUBAR.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
[...] Do you get your bonus action use again if you surge, or if you use it early, are you FUBAR.
No, you don't get a new Bonus Action or Reaction, only one additional action with the following conditions:
You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action.
Once you use this feature, you can’t do so again until you finish a Short or Long Rest. Starting at level 17, you can use it twice before a rest but only once on a turn.
Agreed, no extra bonus action for the action surge. Also, I don’t believe Nick and dual wielding interact the way you think they do. The dual wielding bonus action attack is not the same bonus action as the light two weapon bonus action. Nick only applies to the light TW bonus action so the second attack ( shifted from bonus action to attack action by Nick) has to be a light weapon. Then, since the attacks were with light weapons, the dual wielding bonus action is available for the regular weapon attack. This gives you a total of 3 attacks ( 2 light + 1 regular) vs your 2 attacks (1 light, 1 regular).
The best way to illustrate the distinction between the extra attack of the Light property and the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat is with how Bonus Action works as you can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available but you otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
Barring any other abilities, as a Dual Wielder start your turn, you don't have a Bonus Action to take. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, now:
- you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon. [ Light property]
- you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. [Dual Wielder]
With Nick Mastery, when you make the extra attack of the Light property as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, your Bonus Action is still available.
Technically it’s so badly worded on this that if I’m carrying 2 shortswords and a dagger then ( in theory) the Nick property is always active because I’m carrying the dagger and I can make 2 shortsword attacks in the attack action 1 with each shortsword. Now I’m not advocating that take just pointing out that is within the bounds of the wording. RAI certainly requires that you be wielding the Nick weapon as one of your two ( or three) weapons to activate Nick.
As written, this is actually a more accurate interpretation than your current one. In fact, it's even worse than this. If we really want to harp on the fact that the Nick Mastery property lacks the "with this weapon" clause, then by the RAW you don't even have to be in possession of a Nick weapon at all, let alone that you'd need to be wielding it. I think that it's pretty obvious that this will be fixed by errata at some point though so there's not too much sense in running the game that way.
But if we can make the assumption that in order to use a weapon Mastery property you have to be currently using (typically attacking with) a weapon that has that property, then we are back to just looking at the text of the rule itself to determine when the Mastery property in question can be used. In the case of the Nick Mastery property, this occurs "When you make the extra attack of the Light property".
The above two interpretations are the only two interpretations which follow directly from what the text actually says. Trying to say that you can use the Nick Mastery property during some other attack simply is not supported by the text. It's arbitrary and invented. It's a house rule.
Maybe think of it like this:
Suppose the Nick Mastery property actually said something like "When you make an Unarmed Strike and choose the Shove effect for the first time on your turn . . ." how would you interpret that? This would be specifying one particular attack that you are making on your turn (which might involve multiple actions and attacks) and stipulating that when you make that particular attack then the Nick rule can be used in order to make that attack in a particular way. Well, that's exactly what is going on with the actual text for the Nick Mastery property. When you make a particular specific type of attack (which can only happen once per turn) then you can use the Nick rule to make that attack in a particular way. The entire scope of the rule is within that one attack, not the entire action. It is triggered when that attack occurs, and it provides an alternate rule for how to resolve that attack.
However it doesn’t specify which weapon makes the initial attack and which the bonus attack.
As soon as you use the word "initial" I can see that you've lost sight of what the scope of the rule is for the Nick Mastery property. The Nick Mastery property doesn't know anything about any sort of "initial" attack. It doesn't know that there might be multiple attacks happening at all. It doesn't know anything about the entirety of the Light property mechanic, which encompasses multiple actions and multiple attacks within those multiple actions.
The Nick Mastery property gives you an alternate (specific) rule for how to resolve one particular attack. Sure, for this particular attack to even exist at all, some prerequisites had to be met -- Nick doesn't care about any of that. Once you get to the point where you are actually making this particular attack, then you can take advantage of the Nick rule, assuming that you have access to that Mastery property. That's all that's going on with this rule. Trying to invent some text that says that you can use this rule during some other attack and then somehow "save" the effect of having used this rule for some later time just doesn't fly. Why can't I have made a random attack last week with my Nick weapon and then saved that up for right now when I decide that I want to make an extra attack of the Light property (initiated by some other weapon) right now? That scenario is equally as invented and arbitrary and unsupported by the text. I honestly don't even understand how this idea that you can use the Nick weapon on the "initial attack" even got legs in the first place -- the text simply does not say that. In plain black-and-white it says, "when you make the extra attack of the Light property".
“When you make the extra attack…” not arguing that - the extra attack is moved into the attack action and the bonus action is freed for other uses. No problem. The problem is that Nick doesn’t specify which weapon is being used for this attack. It is equally valid that the Nick weapon was used to make the initial ( that is the first attack in the attack action that round) and that the bonus attack is now being made with a different light weapon - perhaps a vex mastery weapon; as it is that the initial weapon attack was made with the vex weapon and that the bonus attack was made with the Nick weapon. Nick specifically doesn’t specify the weapon used for just that reason - so the PC has options not limitations.
However, seeing as we are just going around in circles with this I think it’s time to drop the entire discussion. You aren’t convincing me of anything and clearly I’m not convincing you so enjoy your ruling at your table and I’ll enjoy mine at my table.
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No , the other attacks say “ with this weapon” Nick doesn’t allowing you to use either weapon first and move the second attack out of the bonus action and into the attack action freeing up the bonus action for ther features to use.
At this point it’s clear to me that you have your mind made up for your restricting reading. I understand and disagree on what RAW says and means and how to read it . As I said that is still up for discussion but I think we have reached a stopping point you’re not seeing my point and I disagree with yours so it’s time to let go. Have fun gaming.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Whether or not the rule includes any clause of "with this weapon" is irrelevant to determining what the rule is actually adjudicating. The entire rule is written to explain what happens "when you make the extra attack". Nothing else is happening in that moment. You are in the midst of making the extra attack when this rule triggers and describes what to do when you make the extra attack. This rule has nothing to do with any previous attack. It's not mentioned at all. The Nick Mastery Property presents an alternate way of resolving the extra attack precisely because the weapon that is being used has the Nick property. The text is quite clear about this.
The only alternative interpretation is that because "with this weapon" is absent then you simply do not need to even possess the weapon at all. Maybe I made an attack with a Nick weapon last month -- does that allow me to use the Nick Mastery Property rule for this extra attack that I am making right now? Perhaps it does if you really believe that using the Property can be done without actually using the weapon which has that property. But that interpretation has mostly been ignored for obvious reasons. But the point is, there is literally no reason at all to assume that there is some sort of in-between thing happening here -- that you don't have to be using the weapon for this attack that's being described in the rule, but if so then you must actually use it in the previous attack . . . for some reason that's never even remotely hinted at in the actual text. Such an idea is totally arbitrary. Maybe I could say that the weapon must have been used at some point during at least one of the previous 5 attacks? Who knows? That would be totally arbitrary and unsupported by the text also.
The Nick Mastery property describes how to resolve the situation "when you make the extra attack of the Light property". We know this because the text begins like this:
So to clear up some confusion, here is the official D&D video with Todd Kendrick and Crawford discussing weapon propertys and weapon mastery: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-nu-JmZ4joo. [Note- the original video was 13min and 22sec and the part that actually pertains to this discussion is in the first 3mins and 20 seconds of the original unedited video.]
At 1:53 in the current version of the video, after crawford explains how nick simply allows a character that uses a weapon that has the mastery on it to make the “extra” attack that can be made as a bonus action as part of the nicking weapons attack, there is a jump cut, meaning a vital part of that conversation was cut out.
This video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O3b9q_FDHR0 created by some individual has that missing 1min and 20 seconds of missing context, and can be found starting at the 2:20 mark through the 3:15ish mark.
Oh and the first part is about crawford explaining how the light property two weapon fighting mechanics works, same as the 2014 version of Two Weapon Fighting found in the combat section, and how nick just frees the bonus action to used however the character chooses.
The missing cut material is kendrick immediately after saying “or use your bonus action to make the extra attack, in which crawfrod says yes you could, and kendrick is like so that means you can attack three times by throwing daggers, and crawford confirms that.
The freaking designer himself in an official video, that 1) uses the light property TWF to explain Nick Weapon Mastery and 2) if unedited and kept the extra bit would prove that the intent with Nick is that the weapon that has the mastery property is the one that allows the attack transfer, and that transfer can only be made if the character is wielding two light weapons, freeing up the bonus action to do bonus action stuff.
So, the answer is crawford DID explain in an official video exactly how the light two weapon fighting and Nick works, and even said that a player can make three(3) attacks with two light weapon fighting and Nick.
So if anyone is incorrect, it is those who didn’t take the time to actually understand how the rules were explained.
It’s been recorded, and the missing piece from the official video should be replaced so that people can understand what the intent from the designer was.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I can understand why they edited the original video incorrectly saying you could make 3 daggers attacks because Nick you let make the extra attack of the Light property only once per turn.
Yet Nick is worded so that the Nick mastery is only used once per turn, the fact that you still can two weapon fight with two light weapons regardless is where people believe get confused.
In 2014 you could wield two light weapons and be dual wielding, take the fighting style to gain offhand ability mod to damage, and make two attacks. The original Action Surge at level 2 allowed you to make an additional action and possibly a bonus action ( which if you think about it would be the only class feature that is specific enough to beat the general rule of only one bonus action per turn, which would have allowed a 2nd level fighter to have 4 attacks dual wielding two light weapons.
The bonus action wording in Action Surge was yanked, and the fighter got nerfed.
Now, with Nick tied to the fact that wielding two light weapons is considered two weapon fighting and nick allows the bonus action extra attack to be made in the same action as first light weapons attack, and can only be used once per turn, means two weapon fighting with the first light weapon attack having the Nick Weapon Mastery the second light weapon attack via Nick transfer( leaving bonus action extra attack still possible, but can no longer nick in this turn[ but can you nick as a reaction?]) and a bonus action that can be ANY bonus action that could be available, even the two weapon fighting extra attack that was made via Nick Mastery.
TL;DR Nick is nothing more than a mastery that gives an extra attack if you are dual wielding two weapons and the first weapon used to attack has the nick mastery.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
To my understanding, Nick doesn't give any extra attack, all it does it modify the extra attack of the Light property by shifting it into the Attack action instead of Bonus Action, and limit it to 1/turn. This frees your Bonus Action to do something else with it. But not the extra attack of the Light property because you already did it this turn.
You also can't benefit from Nick and use the extra attack of the Light property as a Reaction on another creature's turn, say when you Ready, because it must be on your turn.
Thank you all. Again, Nick moves the bonus action light tWF attack into the attack action. It doesn’t specify which weapon has to be used for that attack or whether the “bonus action attack” comes first or second - only that both attacks are part of the attack action. This frees up the bonus action for other things which include certain spell castings, the dual wielding bonus action (which requires a light weapon main attack but is not the light weapon TWF bonus as it allows the use of non light weapons). Before level 5 you are effectively limited to 3 attacks in a round + a possible reaction opportunity attacks. Starting at L5 that changes to 4 attacks in a round with a possible opportunity reaction attack for a 5 th attack.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To my understanding, Nick is not a trigger for a future occurence but a modificator for a live one, written at present tense, which describes a current activity.
Essentially, Nick doesn't do any attack, it modify the extra attack of the Light property you make, when you do it, which must be with a different Light weapon than the one you attacked with when taking the Attack action, making it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. So chronologically;
When you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon.
With Nick Mastery property, when you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action.
Meaning this extra attack can't come first as part of the Attack action, but always 2nd +.
The extra attack of the Light property comes second as per the rules for the Light property:
The Nick Mastery property doesn't know anything about two attacks. It pauses the game at the exact moment that you are right in the middle of making the extra attack of the Light property and changes the default for which resource you need to expend to make that attack. The rule is all about explaining an option for how to resolve the attack that is currently happening:
"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a certain way ]".
That is fair enough but the point I was aiming at (and apparently missed) is that an initial attack with a Nick weapon followed by a second attack with a different light weapon is as valid as the other way around.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The weapon that has the nick mastery is the one that is used first, nick transferred attack right after that attack, bonus action still available. Each weapon has it’s own distinct weapon mastery property that is available when you make an attack with that particular weapon, as crawford described it.
That would imply that to use the nick ability with dual weapon fighting, not just the feat, the light weapon attack would have to be the first attack so the second attack immediately following it is the offhand extra attack.
2024 1st level fighter with a Scimitar ( weapon property of light ; weapon mastery of Nick) Dual Wielder Feat and offhand Weapon of BattleAxe ( weapon property of Versatile; weapon mastery Topple) and TWF( dual weapon fighting ) style feat, and your looking at a sequence of attack one scimitar, immediately followed by nick triggered battleaxe extra attack, then bonus action ( ether a third attack with battleaxe [ and if topple is effective, advantage on all attacks on proned enemy ]) , or some other bonus action taken. [ 3 attacks at level 1, and a backdoor battle master maneuver at the cost of a feat is not too bad. ]
With class or other extra attack features that allow the attack action to have multiple attacks, keeping track of the nick usage becomes a resource management problem for the character.
If you use your bonus action before making an attack with a nicking weapon, then the bonus action extra attack can’t be made, as the character would not be able to make an attack as a bonus action, and if that attack can’t be made then using nick doesn’t work because it depends on the ability to make that extra attack as a bonus action. it’s part of how the design was made to prevent Nick spamming.
With extra attacks from class features, or other means of Attack Action added attacks, weapon juggling becomes a factor.
But the fact remains that a lot of provisional elements have to be in place for Nick to actually be effective.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Where are you getting these ideas from? None of that is in the text.
In fact, the weapon with the Nick Mastery property is NOT the one that is used first. It is the one that is used second. I've already quoted the rule above where the rule for the Light property explicitly specifies that the extra attack of the Light property must occur "later on the same turn", and the Nick Mastery property pertains to the extra attack (NOT the initial attack) of the Light property: "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a particular way ] . . .". There is no text that supports the idea that the Nick Mastery property can be used at all during the initial attack, since the attack that the Nick Mastery property pertains to is explicitly the extra attack, not the initial attack.
Keep in mind also that the Nick Mastery property is written in such a way that it has nothing to do with the overall Light property mechanic. Thinking of the Light mechanic as something that all sort of goes together like a one-two punch sort of entity is a way of thinking that will cause people to go wrong here. The Nick Mastery property is unrelated to the Light property as a whole -- the scope of the rule is that it only functions WITHIN the particular attack that is specified in the rule, not the overall Light property mechanic which involves multiple attacks.
As a side note, similar issues can arise with the regular "Extra Attack" feature of the Fighter class, for example. There might be a rule or feature somewhere that allows a fighter to modify one attack that he makes on his turn in some way. It would be a mistake to think that such a rule pertains to the entirety of that Fighter's Attack Action which can contain multiple attacks. Instead, only one single attack is in play to be modified in this example. It's important to distinguish when a rule relates to an entire mechanic or Action that can involve multiple attacks and when a rule actually is talking about one specific single attack. The Nick Mastery property is all about resolving one specific single attack.
This doesn't support your interpretation. Yes, the Mastery Property is available when you make an attack with that particular weapon, but that attack must be made in the manner that is described within the rule for that Property. In the case of the Nick Mastery property, this attack is made "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". That is the prerequisite for how you need to be making your attack in order to take advantage of the rule that is provided by the Mastery Property.
This is pretty serious evidence that this actually does NOT work in the way that you are describing. The rule is not intended to cause any sort of resource management that needs to be tracked.
Instead, if your Bonus Action is already used, then you simply will not be able to make the extra attack of the Light property in the first place since the Light property mechanic depends on having a Bonus Action available "later on the same turn". If you cannot make the extra attack of the Light property then you cannot use the Nick property, since that property is used "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". There is no keeping track of anything involved. Either you are making the extra attack of the Light property which gives you the opportunity to use the Nick Mastery property if the weapon that is currently being used in that attack has that property, or you are not making the extra attack of the Light property, in which case the Nick Mastery property does not apply.
All right, once more into the breach…
first, for paradox travellor, the light property bonus action attack MUST be with different LIGHT weapon so the battleaxe can’t be used for that attack. It can be used later for the dual wielding bonus action IF you haven’t already used your bonus action elsewhere.
for paradox and Up2ng, yes the bonus action of the light property has to follow the attack action. I’ll accept that. The thing is that the Nick property doesn’t specify which weapon has to make that attack. It simply says that the attack can be made as part of the attack action not as a bonus action, and that you can do this only once. Paradox makes the ( not unreasonable) assumption that for the bonus action to get moved the Nick weapon must be used first during the attack action forcing it to stay open for the second attack. Up2ng reads the Nick ability and the light ability to say that the Nick weapon must be used second to activate Nick. However, Nick doesn’t specify when the WEAPON must be used. Most other masteries do - specifying “ when you make an attack with this weapon and hit”. Nick says NOTHING about which weapon or when just that the bonus action is moved to the attack action. Technically it’s so badly worded on this that if I’m carrying 2 shortswords and a dagger then ( in theory) the Nick property is always active because I’m carrying the dagger and I can make 2 shortsword attacks in the attack action 1 with each shortsword. Now I’m not advocating that take just pointing out that is within the bounds of the wording. RAI certainly requires that you be wielding the Nick weapon as one of your two ( or three) weapons to activate Nick. However it doesn’t specify which weapon makes the initial attack and which the bonus attack. So if you have a dagger, a short sword and a long sword and TWF and the dual wielding feat you cat throw the dagger, drawing it is part of the attack, activating Nick by making the initial attack, then drawing both swords ( as allowed by the dual wielding feat) , take the bonus attack n the attack action with the shortsword as allowed by the Nick mastery and light weapons getting your ability bonus on it as well as the dagger from the TWF style and then, finally , making a bonus action attack with the longsword , without stat bonus but with advantage thanks to the vex of the shortsword (assuming you hit),
Up2ng, I think your conflating the attack and the weapon in your reading. Yes the extra attack comes second as required by the light property TWF but Nick doesn’t specify which attack the weapon bearing the Nick property has to be used on. So, to my reading it could be either one - just as long as your wielding it for one of the attacks.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To Wi1dBi11, the example I gave was a 1st level fighter with with the Dual Weilding Feat, the TWFS feat, a scimitar as the light weapon with Nick mastery, and a battleaxe( per Dual Wielding Feat ) as the second weapon. First attack is with light scimitar using nick mastery to make second following attack with battleaxe per the ability to as part of the DW feat, and Nick wording.
That leaves the bonus action extra attack still available for whatever, ( in the case of the example I gave that BA could, per crawford confirmation, be the offhand[ battleaxe weapon ] bonus attack. )
if the example was say for instance, no Dual Wielding Feat, but just the Light Weapon Property of the Scimitar [ Nick mastery ] then the second weapon could be a shortsword[ Vex mastery for advantage.]
Both the light weapon property and the Dual Wielding Feat work mechanically the same way, except for the provision of the second offhand weapon. DWF has the wording that states when the first attack is made with a light property weapon, you can use your bonus action to make an extra attack with the second wielded weapon.
If using DWF and the first attack is with a light weapon that has the Nick mastery, nick grants the extra attack as a bonus action to be made after the nicking weapon attack.
So with DWF and TWFSF, a scimitar as the light nicking weapon for main hand, battleaxe for second weapon [ battleaxe is versatile meaning can be used one-handed and has topple ( on enemy con save fail, enemy is prone, and the attack thereafter are at advantage till enemy is dead or stands up.)]
The videos provided with crawford talking about how the two weapon fighting and the light property works then tossing nick into that example he( crawford) described, means with just two weapons and weapon mastery usage, a character can make three attacks. [ with just the light weapon property and two light weapons, first a scimitar with nick, second weapon is a shortsword [ light; vex] as second attack per nick extra , and bonus action attack ( per light weapon two weapon fighting ability ), made with shortsword.
Nick isn’t used in the bonus action attack, it is used before a bonus action is used, and nick states that instead of using your bonus action to make a second attack with the different weapon, that attack can be made after attacking with the light nicking weapon, and can only be used ( nick mastery ) once per turn.
So I understand how dual weapon fighting works in the new rules, nick uses dual weapon fighting to give a player a third attack whether you are just using light weapon dual wielding or using the Dual Wielding Feat. [ the DWF enhanced feature uses a light weapon for the first attack so as to allow nick mastery to be incorporated, ( can’t put nick on a longsword can you?) ]
The light property is the same as dual wielding feat, first attack is with a light weapon so nick can jump in get an extra attack, and instead of two attacks you get three.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Now 2nd level fighter, new problem, how does action surge work with dual weapon fighting and nick?
Per general rules, only one BA per turn, and dual weapon fighting uses bonus actions.
Do you get your bonus action use again if you surge, or if you use it early, are you FUBAR.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
No, you don't get a new Bonus Action or Reaction, only one additional action with the following conditions:
Agreed, no extra bonus action for the action surge. Also, I don’t believe Nick and dual wielding interact the way you think they do. The dual wielding bonus action attack is not the same bonus action as the light two weapon bonus action. Nick only applies to the light TW bonus action so the second attack ( shifted from bonus action to attack action by Nick) has to be a light weapon. Then, since the attacks were with light weapons, the dual wielding bonus action is available for the regular weapon attack. This gives you a total of 3 attacks ( 2 light + 1 regular) vs your 2 attacks (1 light, 1 regular).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The best way to illustrate the distinction between the extra attack of the Light property and the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat is with how Bonus Action works as you can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use if you have more than one available but you otherwise don’t have a Bonus Action to take.
Barring any other abilities, as a Dual Wielder start your turn, you don't have a Bonus Action to take. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, now:
- you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Light weapon. [ Light property]
- you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. [Dual Wielder]
With Nick Mastery, when you make the extra attack of the Light property as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, your Bonus Action is still available.
As written, this is actually a more accurate interpretation than your current one. In fact, it's even worse than this. If we really want to harp on the fact that the Nick Mastery property lacks the "with this weapon" clause, then by the RAW you don't even have to be in possession of a Nick weapon at all, let alone that you'd need to be wielding it. I think that it's pretty obvious that this will be fixed by errata at some point though so there's not too much sense in running the game that way.
But if we can make the assumption that in order to use a weapon Mastery property you have to be currently using (typically attacking with) a weapon that has that property, then we are back to just looking at the text of the rule itself to determine when the Mastery property in question can be used. In the case of the Nick Mastery property, this occurs "When you make the extra attack of the Light property".
The above two interpretations are the only two interpretations which follow directly from what the text actually says. Trying to say that you can use the Nick Mastery property during some other attack simply is not supported by the text. It's arbitrary and invented. It's a house rule.
Maybe think of it like this:
Suppose the Nick Mastery property actually said something like "When you make an Unarmed Strike and choose the Shove effect for the first time on your turn . . ." how would you interpret that? This would be specifying one particular attack that you are making on your turn (which might involve multiple actions and attacks) and stipulating that when you make that particular attack then the Nick rule can be used in order to make that attack in a particular way. Well, that's exactly what is going on with the actual text for the Nick Mastery property. When you make a particular specific type of attack (which can only happen once per turn) then you can use the Nick rule to make that attack in a particular way. The entire scope of the rule is within that one attack, not the entire action. It is triggered when that attack occurs, and it provides an alternate rule for how to resolve that attack.
As soon as you use the word "initial" I can see that you've lost sight of what the scope of the rule is for the Nick Mastery property. The Nick Mastery property doesn't know anything about any sort of "initial" attack. It doesn't know that there might be multiple attacks happening at all. It doesn't know anything about the entirety of the Light property mechanic, which encompasses multiple actions and multiple attacks within those multiple actions.
The Nick Mastery property gives you an alternate (specific) rule for how to resolve one particular attack. Sure, for this particular attack to even exist at all, some prerequisites had to be met -- Nick doesn't care about any of that. Once you get to the point where you are actually making this particular attack, then you can take advantage of the Nick rule, assuming that you have access to that Mastery property. That's all that's going on with this rule. Trying to invent some text that says that you can use this rule during some other attack and then somehow "save" the effect of having used this rule for some later time just doesn't fly. Why can't I have made a random attack last week with my Nick weapon and then saved that up for right now when I decide that I want to make an extra attack of the Light property (initiated by some other weapon) right now? That scenario is equally as invented and arbitrary and unsupported by the text. I honestly don't even understand how this idea that you can use the Nick weapon on the "initial attack" even got legs in the first place -- the text simply does not say that. In plain black-and-white it says, "when you make the extra attack of the Light property".
“When you make the extra attack…” not arguing that - the extra attack is moved into the attack action and the bonus action is freed for other uses. No problem. The problem is that Nick doesn’t specify which weapon is being used for this attack. It is equally valid that the Nick weapon was used to make the initial ( that is the first attack in the attack action that round) and that the bonus attack is now being made with a different light weapon - perhaps a vex mastery weapon; as it is that the initial weapon attack was made with the vex weapon and that the bonus attack was made with the Nick weapon. Nick specifically doesn’t specify the weapon used for just that reason - so the PC has options not limitations.
However, seeing as we are just going around in circles with this I think it’s time to drop the entire discussion. You aren’t convincing me of anything and clearly I’m not convincing you so enjoy your ruling at your table and I’ll enjoy mine at my table.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.