As soon as you use the word "initial" I can see that you've lost sight of what the scope of the rule is for the Nick Mastery property. The Nick Mastery property doesn't know anything about any sort of "initial" attack. It doesn't know that there might be multiple attacks happening at all. It doesn't know anything about the entirety of the Light property mechanic, which encompasses multiple actions and multiple attacks within those multiple actions.
Given that the Nick mastery exists entirely to interact with the Light property, I don't think people are going to find any argument that includes it "not knowing about" the Light property particularly persuasive.
Here's my model of what goes on. I can't say it's definitely what the designers use, because if they have a coherent timing model for 5e, they don't expose it in the rules text.
It is, however, likely to not be far off, because the basic idea of an event-based-trigger model is well established in the world because of MtG, and the rules and rulings we have are consistent with it.
When you attack with a Light weapon, the Light property triggers and grants you an ability: to make an attack with a different weapon as a bonus action. (To address a separate thread of the discussion, DW also triggers separately on the same attack.)
The Nick property modifies the ability granted Light property, to make it part of the attack action and not a bonus action, and also to restrict the extra attack of the Light property to once a turn.
Now, when does one invoke the Nick property? The actual text does not specify.
To respite that, we must ask: Is there only one plausible time to invoke it? Let's see:
Does it make sense if invoked when the attack that triggers Light is made? It does -- the ability is being triggered. This is a perfectly reasonable time to modify it.
Does it make sense if invoked when the granted ability is invoked to make an attack? It does -- the ability is being activated. This is a perfectly reasonable time to modify it.
Slight digression:
In fact, if I were implementing it in a game engine, I'd probably have Nick work on the triggering attack -- it's easier design to just make the modified ability available, and never have the unmodified one floating around. But that consideration doesn't actually matter, for humans are not a game engine.
(It does raise a mildly interesting question -- Is Nick mandatory? If you attack with a Nick weapon at the appropriate point, whichever point you think that is, can you not use Nick? The answer is likely 'you don't have to', and there are also few, if any, reasons why you'd ever want to, but it's a relevant question when trying to model the underlying mechanics. (In the game engine implantation, you it would be mandatory, because the considerations are different. But it's still irrelevant.))
Since that analysis doesn't help, we next look at the larger context: Do the weapon mastery rules in general say anything to clarify? Again, they don't.
Is there a consistent precedent in the other masteries to lean on? We're now leaving the world of pure RAW, and it doesn't help, anyway. The other masteries are not consistent, and they also all explicitly state their timing. Part of the problem is that Nick is just different from all the rest -- they do something, while Nick alters an external ability.
Could Nick be a continuous ability? In other words, while you're wielding a Nick weapon, the Light bonus attack power works differently?
In the baseline assumption (two melee weapons, one in each hand), this actually works reasonably well. If you're only using two weapons, the question of which one has to have Nick isn't actually important.
However, it gets odd quickly once you break the baseline. You don't even have to do complicated weapon-swapping tricks -- scimitar in one hand and throwing daggers with the other is sufficient to create a scenario where you never use the Nick weapon at all.
I can't rule out this interpretation, but I don't like it. Using a weapon mastery of a weapon you never use doesn't feel like the correct reading, and once you try to force the weapon to be used, we're back to there being conditions on it that aren't in the actual text.
So, in conclusion, the question is unanswered in RAW.
Use Nick when enabling the Light attack is a valid read
Use Nick when consuming the Light attack is a valid read
Use Nick either when enabling or when consuming, but you do have to use a Nick weapon somewhere is likely a valid read, but I think it requires more assumptions, and makes the whole thing weirdly complex under the hood
Nick is continuous while wielding a Nick weapon is a valid read, but ends up potentially violating an unwritten principle of weapon masteries
My personal interpretation is Nick when consuming, because I think it's most consistent with the rest of the masteries. I'm even pretty sure it's RAI. And I rule it so in my games. But I fully acknowledge that it is an interpretation, and other people can reach different interpretations without being wrong about RAW.
The way I interpret Nick Mastery is the design was to allow a bonus action extra attack when using a weapon with the light property, and that attack could be made as part of the main action instead of using the bonus action. Problem is, that would be a case of specific beats general, aka one bonus action per turn being specifically overridden, and to minimize conflict they shoved Two-Weapon/Dual weapon Fighting into both the light property and the Dual Wielding Feat so as to maintain a once per turn use of Nick Mastery. the wording of the Nick Mastery makes it appear as the initial intention was to give anyone using a light weapon to attack with, an extra attack as a bonus action, but that is the same as Dual weapon fighting [ aka Two-Weapon Fighting and the Dual Wielding Feat.]
So they changed the Nick wording to only work when the weapon that has the mastery is a light weapon and per light property using a light weapon in one hand and using a different weapon ( light or other per DWF) in the other hand, a bonus action extra attack is granted and that attack can be made as part of the light weapon attack action, allowing the bonus action to be used for whatever. ( that even includes the extra attack bonus attack from Light property and/or DW Feat.)
For me, the once per turn use of bonus actions and once per turn use if Nick makes using it to gain an extra attack worthwhile for classes that have limited Attack Action attacks, but actually restricts classes that could benefit from Nick being PB usage.
As far as when the Nick mastery is used, that happens when the weapon that has that particular Nick mastery as part of the weapons property’s is used in making an attack with “that” particular weapon.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Does it make sense if invoked when the attack that triggers Light is made? It does -- the ability is being triggered. This is a perfectly reasonable time to modify it.
No, it doesn't. There is no mention of this at all in the Nick Mastery property. Trying to bring some other aspect of the Light property into a discussion about the Nick property is just inventing text that isn't there.
If you were to nest the various concepts at play within the Light property mechanic, it would look like this:
{ Attack Action [ unrelated attack ] [unrelated attack ] . . . [ attack with a Light weapon ] . . . [ more space for potentially more attacks ] } { Bonus Action ( extra attack of the Light property ) }
The Nick Mastery property is a discussion about what happens between "(" and ")". The rule is triggered when THAT attack is made. The rule explains how to resolve THAT attack. The rule specifies that it gets moved out of that { Bonus Action } area and into the [ more space for potentially more attacks ] area within the { Attack Action } that is specified by the Light property.
At no point is the [ attack with a Light weapon ] ever mentioned. It is not mentioned as a trigger. It is not mentioned as a thing that is resolved by this rule. The Nick Mastery property doesn't know that that exists at all. It is strictly concerned with the extra attack of the Light property. THAT attack gets moved from the Bonus Action to the Attack Action if the Nick Mastery property is used.
Don't add things to the text which aren't there unless you intend to homebrew an alternate form of the rule.
So in your example of using the light property, your using your bonus action to get a bonus action correct?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
So in your example of using the light property, your using your bonus action to get a bonus action correct?
I have no idea what you mean by this.
"Using" the Light property would mean making an attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action so that you can make another attack with another Light weapon later on the same turn as a Bonus Action. You only get one Bonus Action per turn.
So in your example of using the light property, your using your bonus action to get a bonus action correct?
I have no idea what you mean by this.
"Using" the Light property would mean making an attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action so that you can make another attack with another Light weapon later on the same turn as a Bonus Action. You only get one Bonus Action per turn.
In your example:
{ Attack Action [ unrelated attack ] [unrelated attack ] . . . [ attack with a Light weapon ] . . . [ more space for potentially more attacks ] } { Bonus Action ( extra attack of the Light property ) }
The Nick Mastery property is a discussion about what happens between "(" and ")". The rule is triggered when THAT attack is made. The rule explains how to resolve THAT attack. The rule specifies that it gets moved out of that { Bonus Action } area and into the [ more space for potentially more attacks ] area within the { Attack Action } that is specified by the Light property.
You state: { Bonus Action = ( extra attack of the Light property ) }; which means your using your bonus action
and : "Using" the Light property would mean making an attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action so that you can make another attack with another Light weapon later on the same turn as a Bonus Action. You only get one Bonus Action per turn.
And: The Nick Mastery property is a discussion about what happens between "(" and ")". The rule is triggered when THAT attack is made. The rule explains how to resolve THAT attack. The rule specifies that it gets moved out of that { Bonus Action } area and into the [ more space for potentially more attacks ] area within the { Attack Action } that is specified by the Light property.
So are you using your Bonus Action to move the extra attack of nick, and giving yourself another bonus action? Dibble dipping BA’s?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
There is no equals sign in what I wrote. I was just trying to graphically show how certain game elements are nested within other game elements. The point was that the Light property rule is a rule that describes how to handle a large chunk of your turn which involves the entirety of your Action (an Attack action) which contains multiple attacks which each must be resolved as well as providing a use for your Bonus Action. That's a large scope. On the other hand, the scope of the Nick Mastery property is contained within a single attack and then describes where to move that attack within that larger scope. I can see that this description is probably not going to be as helpful to some people as I was hoping.
So are you using your Bonus Action to move the extra attack of nick, and giving yourself another bonus action? Dibble dipping BA’s?
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". But once you are in the process of making that attack, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. The resource that is expended in order to make this attack is changed by this rule. This allows the Bonus Action, which was already available, to remain available for future use by some other feature (it cannot be used by this feature on this turn once the Nick Mastery property is used).
There is no equals sign in what I wrote. I was just trying to graphically show how certain game elements are nested within other game elements. The point was that the Light property rule is a rule that describes how to handle a large chunk of your turn which involves the entirety of your Action (an Attack action) which contains multiple attacks which each must be resolved as well as providing a use for your Bonus Action. That's a large scope. On the other hand, the scope of the Nick Mastery property is contained within a single attack and then describes where to move that attack within that larger scope. I can see that this description is probably not going to be as helpful to some people as I was hoping.
So are you using your Bonus Action to move the extra attack of nick, and giving yourself another bonus action? Dibble dipping BA’s?
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". But once you are in the process of making that attack, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. The resource that is expended in order to make this attack is changed by this rule. This allows the Bonus Action, which was already available, to remain available for future use by some other feature (it cannot be used by this feature on this turn once the Nick Mastery property is used).
Then by logic the extra attack from the Dual Wielder Feat, based on using a light property weapon for the first attack would function the same way. Using nick to move the extra BA attack to the main Attack Action, and leaving the Light property extra BA attack for use.
If waiting till your using your BA to move the Nick attack to main, your using your BA which you only get one of, is equal to gaining a second BA.
Nick gives you an additional resource at the expense of using nick once per turn, but never consumes the original resource, because of the prerequisites for Dual Weapon Fighting = Forgoing the use of a shield to make an additional attack with an offhand weapon. Nick as you say just allows the BA extra attack to be made as part of the main Attack Action, but doesn’t actually use your BA in making that transfer, leaving your BA available to make a third attack with the offhand weapon and Nick can’t be used again.
That means if at any point you use your BA before using Nick, the “instead of” clause can’t be utilized because you no longer have the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action from anywhere.
In other words you burn Nick, keep the BA extra attack if you want to attack again, and forgo the use of Nick again until your next turn. If you have to wait till you use your BA to make the extra attack of Nick transfer, your wasting resources.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
There is no equals sign in what I wrote. I was just trying to graphically show how certain game elements are nested within other game elements. The point was that the Light property rule is a rule that describes how to handle a large chunk of your turn which involves the entirety of your Action (an Attack action) which contains multiple attacks which each must be resolved as well as providing a use for your Bonus Action. That's a large scope. On the other hand, the scope of the Nick Mastery property is contained within a single attack and then describes where to move that attack within that larger scope. I can see that this description is probably not going to be as helpful to some people as I was hoping.
So are you using your Bonus Action to move the extra attack of nick, and giving yourself another bonus action? Dibble dipping BA’s?
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". But once you are in the process of making that attack, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. The resource that is expended in order to make this attack is changed by this rule. This allows the Bonus Action, which was already available, to remain available for future use by some other feature (it cannot be used by this feature on this turn once the Nick Mastery property is used).
Then by logic the extra attack from the Dual Wielder Feat, based on using a light property weapon for the first attack would function the same way. Using nick to move the extra BA attack to the main Attack Action, and leaving the Light property extra BA attack for use.
If waiting till your using your BA to move the Nick attack to main, your using your BA which you only get one of, is equal to gaining a second BA.
Nick gives you an additional resource at the expense of using nick once per turn, but never consumes the original resource, because of the prerequisites for Dual Weapon Fighting = Forgoing the use of a shield to make an additional attack with an offhand weapon. Nick as you say just allows the BA extra attack to be made as part of the main Attack Action, but doesn’t actually use your BA in making that transfer, leaving your BA available to make a third attack with the offhand weapon and Nick can’t be used again.
That means if at any point you use your BA before using Nick, the “instead of” clause can’t be utilized because you no longer have the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action from anywhere.
In other words you burn Nick, keep the BA extra attack if you want to attack again, and forgo the use of Nick again until your next turn. If you have to wait till you use your BA to make the extra attack of Nick transfer, your wasting resources.
Does this logic also apply to the quickened spell metamagic?
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.
It seems like you would say you can't use this if you have already used your action.
(if I recall correctly, you were unable to answer this question some time ago. Please refrain from dodging the question, and assume that no spell slots have been expended this turn.)
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property".
No it didn't. You can absolutely have used your BA already. There is absolutely nothing in the rules or precedence that suggests that "you have to have a resource available in order to use an ability that doesn't require that resource" is a thing in any context.
There is no equals sign in what I wrote. I was just trying to graphically show how certain game elements are nested within other game elements. The point was that the Light property rule is a rule that describes how to handle a large chunk of your turn which involves the entirety of your Action (an Attack action) which contains multiple attacks which each must be resolved as well as providing a use for your Bonus Action. That's a large scope. On the other hand, the scope of the Nick Mastery property is contained within a single attack and then describes where to move that attack within that larger scope. I can see that this description is probably not going to be as helpful to some people as I was hoping.
So are you using your Bonus Action to move the extra attack of nick, and giving yourself another bonus action? Dibble dipping BA’s?
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". But once you are in the process of making that attack, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. The resource that is expended in order to make this attack is changed by this rule. This allows the Bonus Action, which was already available, to remain available for future use by some other feature (it cannot be used by this feature on this turn once the Nick Mastery property is used).
Then by logic the extra attack from the Dual Wielder Feat, based on using a light property weapon for the first attack would function the same way. Using nick to move the extra BA attack to the main Attack Action, and leaving the Light property extra BA attack for use.
If waiting till your using your BA to move the Nick attack to main, your using your BA which you only get one of, is equal to gaining a second BA.
Nick gives you an additional resource at the expense of using nick once per turn, but never consumes the original resource, because of the prerequisites for Dual Weapon Fighting = Forgoing the use of a shield to make an additional attack with an offhand weapon. Nick as you say just allows the BA extra attack to be made as part of the main Attack Action, but doesn’t actually use your BA in making that transfer, leaving your BA available to make a third attack with the offhand weapon and Nick can’t be used again.
That means if at any point you use your BA before using Nick, the “instead of” clause can’t be utilized because you no longer have the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action from anywhere.
In other words you burn Nick, keep the BA extra attack if you want to attack again, and forgo the use of Nick again until your next turn. If you have to wait till you use your BA to make the extra attack of Nick transfer, your wasting resources.
Does this logic also apply to the quickened spell metamagic?
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.
It seems like you would say you can't use this if you have already used your action.
(if I recall correctly, you were unable to answer this question some time ago. Please refrain from dodging the question, and assume that no spell slots have been expended this turn.)
I answered the question before, if you used your Bonus Action before using the MetaMagic feature, you are burning sorc points for nothing, because you only get one Bonus Action per turn.
If you used your main action to cast a Level 1+ spell, Even if you used a magic item, then MetaMagic is burning sorc points to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, wasteful because the rules for spells allowed for cantrips with a 1 Action casting time to be used as a bonus action.
Nick is the same way, you burn your BA before using Nick and the mastery is useless, timing matters.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Does this logic also apply to the quickened spell metamagic?
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.
It seems like you would say you can't use this if you have already used your action.
(if I recall correctly, you were unable to answer this question some time ago. Please refrain from dodging the question, and assume that no spell slots have been expended this turn.)
I answered the question before, if you used your Bonus Action before using the MetaMagic feature, you are burning sorc points for nothing, because you only get one Bonus Action per turn.
If you used your main action to cast a Level 1+ spell, Even if you used a magic item, then MetaMagic is burning sorc points to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, wasteful because the rules for spells allowed for cantrips with a 1 Action casting time to be used as a bonus action.
Neither of those answer the question presented.
Bob the Sorcerer and buddies are walking along the road. Myrtle the Ranger is scouting ahead, and gets ambushed.
In order to get into range to back Myrtle up, Bob takes his full move, then he uses his action to Dash. Having finally got into range, he wants to quicken a fireball.
Since he has already used his action to Dash, your argument suggests that he can't do that.
Nick is the same way, you burn your BA before using Nick and the mastery is useless, timing matters.
When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated.
Does this logic also apply to the quickened spell metamagic?
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.
It seems like you would say you can't use this if you have already used your action.
(if I recall correctly, you were unable to answer this question some time ago. Please refrain from dodging the question, and assume that no spell slots have been expended this turn.)
I answered the question before, if you used your Bonus Action before using the MetaMagic feature, you are burning sorc points for nothing, because you only get one Bonus Action per turn.
If you used your main action to cast a Level 1+ spell, Even if you used a magic item, then MetaMagic is burning sorc points to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, wasteful because the rules for spells allowed for cantrips with a 1 Action casting time to be used as a bonus action.
Neither of those answer the question presented.
Bob the Sorcerer and buddies are walking along the road. Myrtle the Ranger is scouting ahead, and gets ambushed.
In order to get into range to back Myrtle up, Bob takes his full move, then he uses his action to Dash. Having finally got into range, he wants to quicken a fireball.
Since he has already used his action to Dash, your argument suggests that he can't do that.
Nick is the same way, you burn your BA before using Nick and the mastery is useless, timing matters.
Question was answered, example of using Dash Action after normal move action( which normal moving is independent action from standard one action per turn rules) means Bonus Action is still available for MetaMagic use and as long as Myrtle isn’t in the AoE you good to go. But if Bob used their BA to Dash again ( if possible )then using MetaMagic is impossible.
If you use your BA before using Nick, the extra attack as a bonus action can’t be taken or made, and so the transfer is impossible.
Again action timing and when they are used plays a factor in what abilities and features can be used at any given time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated.
Does this logic also apply to the quickened spell metamagic?
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to change the casting time to a Bonus Action for this casting. You can’t modify a spell in this way if you’ve already cast a level 1+ spell on the current turn, nor can you cast a level 1+ spell on this turn after modifying a spell in this way.
It seems like you would say you can't use this if you have already used your action.
(if I recall correctly, you were unable to answer this question some time ago. Please refrain from dodging the question, and assume that no spell slots have been expended this turn.)
I answered the question before, if you used your Bonus Action before using the MetaMagic feature, you are burning sorc points for nothing, because you only get one Bonus Action per turn.
If you used your main action to cast a Level 1+ spell, Even if you used a magic item, then MetaMagic is burning sorc points to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, wasteful because the rules for spells allowed for cantrips with a 1 Action casting time to be used as a bonus action.
Neither of those answer the question presented.
Bob the Sorcerer and buddies are walking along the road. Myrtle the Ranger is scouting ahead, and gets ambushed.
In order to get into range to back Myrtle up, Bob takes his full move, then he uses his action to Dash. Having finally got into range, he wants to quicken a fireball.
Since he has already used his action to Dash, your argument suggests that he can't do that.
Nick is the same way, you burn your BA before using Nick and the mastery is useless, timing matters.
Question was answered, example of using Dash Action after normal move action( which normal moving is independent action from standard one action per turn rules) means Bonus Action is still available for MetaMagic use and as long as Myrtle isn’t in the AoE you good to go. But if Bob used their BA to Dash again ( if possible )then using MetaMagic is impossible.
If you use your BA before using Nick, the extra attack as a bonus action can’t be taken or made, and so the transfer is impossible.
Again action timing and when they are used plays a factor in what abilities and features can be used at any given time.
But it says "When you cast a spell..." By your logic, you must have an action in order to use this, as you can't cast the spell otherwise.
While the derailing of the topic is moot, questions answered, the fact remains Crawford made a video that was later edited, and the light property and Nick is explained in the video.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
While the derailing of the topic is moot, questions answered, the fact remains Crawford made a video that was later edited, and the light property and Nick is explained in the video.
Then by logic the extra attack from the Dual Wielder Feat, based on using a light property weapon for the first attack would function the same way. Using nick to move the extra BA attack to the main Attack Action, and leaving the Light property extra BA attack for use.
This is incorrect. The Dual Wielder Feat is a totally separate rule which works in the way that is specified by that rule. The Nick Mastery property has absolutely no interaction with the Dual Wielder feat. It only interacts with the extra attack of the Light property, NOT the extra attack of the Dual Wielder Feat. The extra attack of the Dual Wielder Feat can never be made as part of your Attack Action. It always requires a Bonus Action.
Nick as you say just allows the BA extra attack to be made as part of the main Attack Action, but doesn’t actually use your BA in making that transfer, leaving your BA available to make a third attack with the offhand weapon and Nick can’t be used again.
The underlined portion of your statement is one of the places where you keep going wrong. There is nothing in the rule for the Nick Mastery property which says that "Nick can't be used again". It says that "You can make this extra attack only once per turn". It's not the switching that is restricted. It's the attack. That particular attack can only be made once per turn. Whether that attack is being made as part of the Attack action or as a Bonus Action -- it can only be made once per turn.
As a result of this restriction of how many times you can make that attack in a turn, you also can only use the Nick Mastery property once per turn as a consequence of that. In addition, this restriction also means that you actually can only use the overall rule for the Light property once per turn as well.
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property".
No it didn't. You can absolutely have used your BA already. There is absolutely nothing in the rules or precedence that suggests that "you have to have a resource available in order to use an ability that doesn't require that resource" is a thing in any context.
I disagree extremely strongly with you on that. The Light property explicitly requires the Bonus Action to be used "later on the same turn". The Nick Mastery property explicitly refers to something that happens along the way while using the rule for the Light property. That's what triggers the use of the Nick Mastery property, and that's what the rule for the Nick Mastery property applies to. Very explicitly, the Nick Mastery property begins with "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a certain way ]".
You cannot do anything at all regarding the extra attack of the Light property if the Light property is not even available for you to use. In order to use the rule for the Light property, the Bonus Action MUST be available. If the Bonus Action is available then you can use the rule for the Light property to give yourself an opportunity to make an extra attack. When you are making that extra attack, you can then use the Nick Mastery property to avoid expending that Bonus Action with that attack. There isn't any way around this procedure.
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property".
No it didn't. You can absolutely have used your BA already. There is absolutely nothing in the rules or precedence that suggests that "you have to have a resource available in order to use an ability that doesn't require that resource" is a thing in any context.
I disagree extremely strongly with you on that. The Light property explicitly requires the Bonus Action to be used "later on the same turn". The Nick Mastery property explicitly refers to something that happens along the way while using the rule for the Light property. That's what triggers the use of the Nick Mastery property, and that's what the rule for the Nick Mastery property applies to. Very explicitly, the Nick Mastery property begins with "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a certain way ]".
You cannot do anything at all regarding the extra attack of the Light property if the Light property is not even available for you to use. In order to use the rule for the Light property, the Bonus Action MUST be available. If the Bonus Action is available then you can use the rule for the Light property to give yourself an opportunity to make an extra attack. When you are making that extra attack, you can then use the Nick Mastery property to avoid expending that Bonus Action with that attack. There isn't any way around this procedure.
Does that mean you believe you must have not used your action yet in order to use the quickened spell metamagic?
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You can't use Nick Mastery while your scimitar is away at the cottage! :)
Given that the Nick mastery exists entirely to interact with the Light property, I don't think people are going to find any argument that includes it "not knowing about" the Light property particularly persuasive.
Here's my model of what goes on. I can't say it's definitely what the designers use, because if they have a coherent timing model for 5e, they don't expose it in the rules text.
It is, however, likely to not be far off, because the basic idea of an event-based-trigger model is well established in the world because of MtG, and the rules and rulings we have are consistent with it.
When you attack with a Light weapon, the Light property triggers and grants you an ability: to make an attack with a different weapon as a bonus action. (To address a separate thread of the discussion, DW also triggers separately on the same attack.)
The Nick property modifies the ability granted Light property, to make it part of the attack action and not a bonus action, and also to restrict the extra attack of the Light property to once a turn.
Now, when does one invoke the Nick property? The actual text does not specify.
To respite that, we must ask: Is there only one plausible time to invoke it? Let's see:
Slight digression:
In fact, if I were implementing it in a game engine, I'd probably have Nick work on the triggering attack -- it's easier design to just make the modified ability available, and never have the unmodified one floating around. But that consideration doesn't actually matter, for humans are not a game engine.
(It does raise a mildly interesting question -- Is Nick mandatory? If you attack with a Nick weapon at the appropriate point, whichever point you think that is, can you not use Nick? The answer is likely 'you don't have to', and there are also few, if any, reasons why you'd ever want to, but it's a relevant question when trying to model the underlying mechanics. (In the game engine implantation, you it would be mandatory, because the considerations are different. But it's still irrelevant.))
Since that analysis doesn't help, we next look at the larger context: Do the weapon mastery rules in general say anything to clarify? Again, they don't.
Is there a consistent precedent in the other masteries to lean on? We're now leaving the world of pure RAW, and it doesn't help, anyway. The other masteries are not consistent, and they also all explicitly state their timing. Part of the problem is that Nick is just different from all the rest -- they do something, while Nick alters an external ability.
Could Nick be a continuous ability? In other words, while you're wielding a Nick weapon, the Light bonus attack power works differently?
In the baseline assumption (two melee weapons, one in each hand), this actually works reasonably well. If you're only using two weapons, the question of which one has to have Nick isn't actually important.
However, it gets odd quickly once you break the baseline. You don't even have to do complicated weapon-swapping tricks -- scimitar in one hand and throwing daggers with the other is sufficient to create a scenario where you never use the Nick weapon at all.
I can't rule out this interpretation, but I don't like it. Using a weapon mastery of a weapon you never use doesn't feel like the correct reading, and once you try to force the weapon to be used, we're back to there being conditions on it that aren't in the actual text.
So, in conclusion, the question is unanswered in RAW.
My personal interpretation is Nick when consuming, because I think it's most consistent with the rest of the masteries. I'm even pretty sure it's RAI. And I rule it so in my games. But I fully acknowledge that it is an interpretation, and other people can reach different interpretations without being wrong about RAW.
The way I interpret Nick Mastery is the design was to allow a bonus action extra attack when using a weapon with the light property, and that attack could be made as part of the main action instead of using the bonus action. Problem is, that would be a case of specific beats general, aka one bonus action per turn being specifically overridden, and to minimize conflict they shoved Two-Weapon/Dual weapon Fighting into both the light property and the Dual Wielding Feat so as to maintain a once per turn use of Nick Mastery.
the wording of the Nick Mastery makes it appear as the initial intention was to give anyone using a light weapon to attack with, an extra attack as a bonus action, but that is the same as Dual weapon fighting [ aka Two-Weapon Fighting and the Dual Wielding Feat.]
So they changed the Nick wording to only work when the weapon that has the mastery is a light weapon and per light property using a light weapon in one hand and using a different weapon ( light or other per DWF) in the other hand, a bonus action extra attack is granted and that attack can be made as part of the light weapon attack action, allowing the bonus action to be used for whatever. ( that even includes the extra attack bonus attack from Light property and/or DW Feat.)
For me, the once per turn use of bonus actions and once per turn use if Nick makes using it to gain an extra attack worthwhile for classes that have limited Attack Action attacks, but actually restricts classes that could benefit from Nick being PB usage.
As far as when the Nick mastery is used, that happens when the weapon that has that particular Nick mastery as part of the weapons property’s is used in making an attack with “that” particular weapon.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
No, it doesn't. There is no mention of this at all in the Nick Mastery property. Trying to bring some other aspect of the Light property into a discussion about the Nick property is just inventing text that isn't there.
If you were to nest the various concepts at play within the Light property mechanic, it would look like this:
{ Attack Action [ unrelated attack ] [unrelated attack ] . . . [ attack with a Light weapon ] . . . [ more space for potentially more attacks ] } { Bonus Action ( extra attack of the Light property ) }
The Nick Mastery property is a discussion about what happens between "(" and ")". The rule is triggered when THAT attack is made. The rule explains how to resolve THAT attack. The rule specifies that it gets moved out of that { Bonus Action } area and into the [ more space for potentially more attacks ] area within the { Attack Action } that is specified by the Light property.
At no point is the [ attack with a Light weapon ] ever mentioned. It is not mentioned as a trigger. It is not mentioned as a thing that is resolved by this rule. The Nick Mastery property doesn't know that that exists at all. It is strictly concerned with the extra attack of the Light property. THAT attack gets moved from the Bonus Action to the Attack Action if the Nick Mastery property is used.
Don't add things to the text which aren't there unless you intend to homebrew an alternate form of the rule.
So in your example of using the light property, your using your bonus action to get a bonus action correct?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I have no idea what you mean by this.
"Using" the Light property would mean making an attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action so that you can make another attack with another Light weapon later on the same turn as a Bonus Action. You only get one Bonus Action per turn.
In your example:
You state: { Bonus Action = ( extra attack of the Light property ) }; which means your using your bonus action
and : "Using" the Light property would mean making an attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action so that you can make another attack with another Light weapon later on the same turn as a Bonus Action. You only get one Bonus Action per turn.
And: The Nick Mastery property is a discussion about what happens between "(" and ")". The rule is triggered when THAT attack is made. The rule explains how to resolve THAT attack. The rule specifies that it gets moved out of that { Bonus Action } area and into the [ more space for potentially more attacks ] area within the { Attack Action } that is specified by the Light property.
So are you using your Bonus Action to move the extra attack of nick, and giving yourself another bonus action? Dibble dipping BA’s?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
There is no equals sign in what I wrote. I was just trying to graphically show how certain game elements are nested within other game elements. The point was that the Light property rule is a rule that describes how to handle a large chunk of your turn which involves the entirety of your Action (an Attack action) which contains multiple attacks which each must be resolved as well as providing a use for your Bonus Action. That's a large scope. On the other hand, the scope of the Nick Mastery property is contained within a single attack and then describes where to move that attack within that larger scope. I can see that this description is probably not going to be as helpful to some people as I was hoping.
The Nick Mastery property never actually uses your Bonus Action. Your Bonus Action had to be available so that you can get to the moment "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". But once you are in the process of making that attack, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. The resource that is expended in order to make this attack is changed by this rule. This allows the Bonus Action, which was already available, to remain available for future use by some other feature (it cannot be used by this feature on this turn once the Nick Mastery property is used).
Then by logic the extra attack from the Dual Wielder Feat, based on using a light property weapon for the first attack would function the same way. Using nick to move the extra BA attack to the main Attack Action, and leaving the Light property extra BA attack for use.
If waiting till your using your BA to move the Nick attack to main, your using your BA which you only get one of, is equal to gaining a second BA.
Nick gives you an additional resource at the expense of using nick once per turn, but never consumes the original resource, because of the prerequisites for Dual Weapon Fighting = Forgoing the use of a shield to make an additional attack with an offhand weapon.
Nick as you say just allows the BA extra attack to be made as part of the main Attack Action, but doesn’t actually use your BA in making that transfer, leaving your BA available to make a third attack with the offhand weapon and Nick can’t be used again.
That means if at any point you use your BA before using Nick, the “instead of” clause can’t be utilized because you no longer have the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action from anywhere.
In other words you burn Nick, keep the BA extra attack if you want to attack again, and forgo the use of Nick again until your next turn.
If you have to wait till you use your BA to make the extra attack of Nick transfer, your wasting resources.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Does this logic also apply to the quickened spell metamagic?
It seems like you would say you can't use this if you have already used your action.
(if I recall correctly, you were unable to answer this question some time ago. Please refrain from dodging the question, and assume that no spell slots have been expended this turn.)
No it didn't. You can absolutely have used your BA already. There is absolutely nothing in the rules or precedence that suggests that "you have to have a resource available in order to use an ability that doesn't require that resource" is a thing in any context.
I answered the question before, if you used your Bonus Action before using the MetaMagic feature, you are burning sorc points for nothing, because you only get one Bonus Action per turn.
If you used your main action to cast a Level 1+ spell, Even if you used a magic item, then MetaMagic is burning sorc points to cast a Cantrip as a bonus action, wasteful because the rules for spells allowed for cantrips with a 1 Action casting time to be used as a bonus action.
Nick is the same way, you burn your BA before using Nick and the mastery is useless, timing matters.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Neither of those answer the question presented.
Bob the Sorcerer and buddies are walking along the road. Myrtle the Ranger is scouting ahead, and gets ambushed.
In order to get into range to back Myrtle up, Bob takes his full move, then he uses his action to Dash. Having finally got into range, he wants to quicken a fireball.
Since he has already used his action to Dash, your argument suggests that he can't do that.
Magic [Action]
When you take the Magic action, you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action or use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated.
Question was answered, example of using Dash Action after normal move action( which normal moving is independent action from standard one action per turn rules) means Bonus Action is still available for MetaMagic use and as long as Myrtle isn’t in the AoE you good to go. But if Bob used their BA to Dash again ( if possible )then using MetaMagic is impossible.
If you use your BA before using Nick, the extra attack as a bonus action can’t be taken or made, and so the transfer is impossible.
Again action timing and when they are used plays a factor in what abilities and features can be used at any given time.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
But it says "When you cast a spell..." By your logic, you must have an action in order to use this, as you can't cast the spell otherwise.
While the derailing of the topic is moot, questions answered, the fact remains Crawford made a video that was later edited, and the light property and Nick is explained in the video.
2024 SAC entry noted, RAW as RAI, Solved!
[ https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/spells#CastingwithoutSlots]
[https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/rules-glossary#MagicAction]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
You have not, in fact, answered the questions. Unless you can explain why quickened spell is different from nick, your viewpoint is invalid.
Yeah, I think that the interpretation of "you must have a BA available to use Nick at all" is too strict.
This is incorrect. The Dual Wielder Feat is a totally separate rule which works in the way that is specified by that rule. The Nick Mastery property has absolutely no interaction with the Dual Wielder feat. It only interacts with the extra attack of the Light property, NOT the extra attack of the Dual Wielder Feat. The extra attack of the Dual Wielder Feat can never be made as part of your Attack Action. It always requires a Bonus Action.
The underlined portion of your statement is one of the places where you keep going wrong. There is nothing in the rule for the Nick Mastery property which says that "Nick can't be used again". It says that "You can make this extra attack only once per turn". It's not the switching that is restricted. It's the attack. That particular attack can only be made once per turn. Whether that attack is being made as part of the Attack action or as a Bonus Action -- it can only be made once per turn.
As a result of this restriction of how many times you can make that attack in a turn, you also can only use the Nick Mastery property once per turn as a consequence of that. In addition, this restriction also means that you actually can only use the overall rule for the Light property once per turn as well.
I disagree extremely strongly with you on that. The Light property explicitly requires the Bonus Action to be used "later on the same turn". The Nick Mastery property explicitly refers to something that happens along the way while using the rule for the Light property. That's what triggers the use of the Nick Mastery property, and that's what the rule for the Nick Mastery property applies to. Very explicitly, the Nick Mastery property begins with "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it [ in a certain way ]".
You cannot do anything at all regarding the extra attack of the Light property if the Light property is not even available for you to use. In order to use the rule for the Light property, the Bonus Action MUST be available. If the Bonus Action is available then you can use the rule for the Light property to give yourself an opportunity to make an extra attack. When you are making that extra attack, you can then use the Nick Mastery property to avoid expending that Bonus Action with that attack. There isn't any way around this procedure.
Does that mean you believe you must have not used your action yet in order to use the quickened spell metamagic?