I believe no feature cares what spell list a spell is on other than "the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature" because if it didn't matter how the caster knew the spell, then the feature would indicate that, as it does whenever it works on any spell you cast or spells from specific schools. We have plenty of examples of that and way way way too many spells that appear on so many class lists that it just doesn't make sense for it to matter what canonical class list it is on.
Thousands of words in essays on the topic can't make any sense of the other view.
the Eldritch Invocation feature provides a Warlock with a means to cast some spells that are not Warlock spells -- that's one of the main purposes of that feature. The general rules of the Eldritch Invocation feature and also the rules provided for each individual invocation (with some exceptions) do not explicitly cause a spell to become a Warlock spell
This is, of course, directly contradicted by the actual Rules As Written
Level 1: Pact Magic
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
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the Eldritch Invocation feature provides a Warlock with a means to cast some spells that are not Warlock spells -- that's one of the main purposes of that feature. The general rules of the Eldritch Invocation feature and also the rules provided for each individual invocation (with some exceptions) do not explicitly cause a spell to become a Warlock spell
This is, of course, directly contradicted by the actual Rules As Written
Level 1: Pact Magic
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
Incorrect. You forgot to highlight the rest of the clause:
Level 1: Pact Magic
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
So, in fact, the actual way that this works is that another Warlock feature must give you a spell that you always have prepared in order for that spell to count as a Warlock spell for you. If that prerequisite is not met, then the spell in question does not apply to that rule.
Examples of Warlock features that do this are Contact Patron:
and with a loose reading, the Pact of the Tome Eldritch Invocation:
The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you.
If we really want to go into the weeds, the spells provided by Pact of the Tome do not qualify either. This is because those spells are not "always prepared". Instead, they are prepared while certain conditions are met, but they are not prepared when those conditions are not met. This is why that invocation explicitly adds the fact that "they function as Warlock spells for you", instead of assuming that the similar language given in the Pact Magic rule would apply.
Most of the Warlock's Eldritch Invocations do NOT possess this language about the spell being "always prepared".
Now, even if you wanted to make a logical leap and assume that spells that are "known" or "learned" are considered to be "always prepared" in the mind (there is no rule that actually says this, but without this logic we would be unable to cast any Cantrips -- this needs to be clarified via errata), these spells from most of the invocations STILL do NOT qualify because these invocations in question do NOT say that the provided spell is "known" or "learned". Instead, the Warlock is "imbued" with the ability to cast the spell.
I believe no feature cares what spell list a spell is on other than "the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature" because if it didn't matter how the caster knew the spell, then the feature would indicate that, as it does whenever it works on any spell you cast or spells from specific schools. We have plenty of examples of that and way way way too many spells that appear on so many class lists that it just doesn't make sense for it to matter what canonical class list it is on.
Thousands of words in essays on the topic can't make any sense of the other view.
This is a fine observation but it's the wrong conclusion. It's true that a lot of features might "add" to the class list or require you to "choose from" the class list, but features do not generally use the class list as its own category of spells that the feature will check for as a qualifying requirement. Instead, features generally care about whether or not the spell is a [Class] spell (such as a Cleric spell or a Warlock spell), which is a slightly broader category.
The category of spells that is referred to as the [Class] spells is a collection of all spells which appear on that class's spell list as well as any other spell that explicitly "counts as" a [Class] spell for you.
Whether or not a spell counts as a [Class] spell (such as a Warlock spell) has absolutely nothing at all to do with how the spellcaster knows the spell or how he has prepared the spell or how he has cast the spell or which trait, feat or feature he is using to do so. You won't find anything in the rules which says anything like that. Features such as Pact Magic say that they provide information that "details how you use those [general spellcasting] rules with Warlock spells". Not to "create" Warlock spells or anything like that. The Warlock spells already exist and features such as Pact Magic are designed to work with those specific spells, and not with any other spells.
the Eldritch Invocation feature provides a Warlock with a means to cast some spells that are not Warlock spells -- that's one of the main purposes of that feature. The general rules of the Eldritch Invocation feature and also the rules provided for each individual invocation (with some exceptions) do not explicitly cause a spell to become a Warlock spell
This is, of course, directly contradicted by the actual Rules As Written
Level 1: Pact Magic
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
Incorrect. You forgot to highlight the rest of the clause:
Level 1: Pact Magic
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
No, I didn't
As Wolf has already cited multiple times in this thread, the 2024 rules explicitly use the word 'prepared' to describe any spell you are casting, unless you are casting it from a magic item. There's no third option
Gaining Spells
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
If a feature gives you ability to cast a spell, then that spell must always be prepared
You are certainly free to ignore rules you find inconvenient for whatever reason, but you are not then making a RAW argument
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh, that's a massively gross misinterpretation of that general rule. There's nothing in that rule that says that it is assumed that a spell has been prepared just because it is being cast. It's the other way around. This rule outlines the general procedure for things that you are required to do in order to cast a spell in the future. This general procedure is always available. Preparing a spell is a method of causing the spell to be ready to cast from your mind. But there are specific rules which supersede general rules all over the place in the game.
Features do what they say. They certainly don't do things that they don't say.
I can be pretty verbose at times, but I also have my pride as an editor. We owe it to ourselves and each other to be as clear and concise as possible. The fact that we're now six pages deep means at least one person is struggling with the assignment.
If a class has a feature (Pact Magic, Spellcasting, or otherwise) which grants you access to a spell, it's a [Class] spell for the purposes of whatever [Class] spell list your class is using if the feature says it's a [Class] spell for you. Silent Image isn't on the Warlock spell list, and it does not become a Warlock spell for you with Eldritch Invocation: Misty Visions. You even have a spellcasting ability for its DC, which is more than I can say for Jump (Eldritch Invocation: Otherworldly Leap), but it doesn't have the text calling it a Warlock spell.
Conversely, Chain Lightning isn't on the Bard spell list, but it still becomes a Bard spell for you if acquired via Magical Secrets because the all-important text is there.
There are no secret rules. This really should not be so difficult.
As Wolf has already cited multiple times in this thread, the 2024 rules explicitly use the word 'prepared' to describe any spell you are casting, unless you are casting it from a magic item. There's no third option
Gaining Spells
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
If a feature gives you ability to cast a spell, then that spell must always be prepared
First, that section is a general rule. Invocations create exceptions and supersede the general rule.
Quote from Players Handbook (2024), page 8
Exceptions Supersede General Rules
General rules govern each part of the game.
...
The game also includes elements -- class features, feats, weapons, spells, magic items, and the like--that sometimes contradict a general rule. When an exception and a general rule disagree, the exception wins.
The invocations are an exception to needing to prepare a spell or have access to it via a magic item. You do not have the spells prepared and cannot cast them with your spell slots unless you otherwise have them prepared or another exception allows you.
You are certainly free to ignore rules you find inconvenient for whatever reason, but you are not then making a RAW argument
You should make sure your understanding of RAW is absolute before making accusatory statements.
There is room for debate about RAW and RAI. The strictest reading of RAW does not give you the spells as always prepared and therefore prevents you from counting them as Warlock spells, but then that leaves no defined attribute for spell attacks and save DCs. For that reason, we have to assume that RAI is that they are Warlock spells, but there is nothing that says they are always prepared.
You always have the Divine Smite spell prepared. In addition, you can cast it without expending a spell slot, but you must finish a Long Rest before you can cast it in this way again.
The Paladin has the ability to cast Divine Smite without a spell slot. Your assumption is that this means that it always prepared. It would not be, except that it says explicitly that it is always prepared. Faithful Steed is the same way. Favored Enemy for Rangers is the same way. Contact Patron for a Warlock is the same way.
This creates a pattern that reinforces that the interpretation that Invocations Spells are not automatically prepared.
Nothing in the Invocations actually say you have the spell prepared. Even Pact of the Chain says that "You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a Magic action without expending a spell slot" but "learning" the spell has no meaning in 2024. Instead, you effectively cast it at will as a Magic action (!) without a slot (there is no benefit to upcasting it anyway).
As Wolf has already cited multiple times in this thread, the 2024 rules explicitly use the word 'prepared' to describe any spell you are casting, unless you are casting it from a magic item. There's no third option
Gaining Spells
Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.
If a feature gives you ability to cast a spell, then that spell must always be prepared
First, that section is a general rule. Invocations create exceptions and supersede the general rule.
The general rule explicitly tells you "your features specify which spells you have access to". Eldritch Invocations are a class feature. There's no "specific beats general" here
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I actually do think it might have been a bit of an overreach on my part to suggest that being able to cast a spell meant that it was prepared, as of course, the recent discussion centered around the idea that invocations might be intentionally not cast-able with slots. Although it is certainly oddly redundant for *nearly* every feature in every class that gives classes spells to tell you that they are prepared and count as class spells but then to have an additional line that says any feature that adds prepared spells to your class list.
But then that means there is clearly a rules oversight because spells can't be nothing spells. We can't have a spell DC or attack bonus (which several invocations need) without a casting stat. So trying to make sense out of these rules as written is fruitless. I feel like this whole argument is moot until someone tags a rules designer into this thread.
Then again, if the authors thought they could trust people to intuit what a warlock spell was, then they wouldn't have *tried* to go out of their way to fix it for this update. But some people refuse to take the intuitive approach to understand that the list of spells that you actually have access to through a class are all of your spells for that class. Since people don't understand the rules that way, they tried to add a sentence to the preparation rules for each class that stated it. They just didn't quite get the wording perfect, so people still misunderstand it -- or actually, at this point, can't even make sense of it.
it doesn't have the text calling it a Warlock spell.
The individual invocations don't, but Pact Magic does
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it doesn't have the text calling it a Warlock spell.
The individual invocations don't, but Pact Magic does
But Eldritch Invocations and Pact Magic are separate features.
Arguably the hard RAW is that since the Invocations don't let you "prepare" the spell the way other features do, the spells they give don't count as Warlock spells and instead fall in a grey area. But in practice I think it fits better for them to count; the only Invocation spells that appear to be impacted by it in relation to subclass features are Disguise Self and Silent Image for Psychic Spells, and it's way too on-brand to be able to make illusions or change your appearance without V or S components.
I actually do think it might have been a bit of an overreach on my part to suggest that being able to cast a spell meant that it was prepared, as of course, the recent discussion centered around the idea that invocations might be intentionally not cast-able with slots. Although it is certainly oddly redundant for *nearly* every feature in every class that gives classes spells to tell you that they are prepared and count as class spells but then to have an additional line that says any feature that adds prepared spells to your class list.
It's only a conflict if you assume "Pact Magic spells" (as in, spells cast with pact slots) and "Warlock spells" mean the same thing
A spell accessed via Pact Magic is a Warlock spell, but a Warlock spell accessed through an invocation isn't a Pact Magic spell, because they are separate class features
This is true for any casting class. A spell prepared from a wizard's spellbook, and their Spellcasting feature, is obviously a Wizard spell, but there may be Wizard spells they have prepared and can cast (see invisibility via a Diviner's Third Eye feature, for instance, which uses the exact same language as warlock invocations) that aren't necessarily in their spellbook
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I actually do think it might have been a bit of an overreach on my part to suggest that being able to cast a spell meant that it was prepared, as of course, the recent discussion centered around the idea that invocations might be intentionally not cast-able with slots.
What I do think has merit, and I hope to see it explicitly added somewhere to the general rules, is the concept that if a spell IS "known" or "learned" then we can consider that to be "always prepared" since knowing something implies that it's permanently in your mind. This would at least allow the Cantrip mechanic to make sense. But a feature has to at least say that you know or learn the spell for this to apply.
I honestly believe that they are going for something that harkens back to the old-school days when spells were "memorized" over the course of several hours of study. Back then, when the spell was cast, it was erased from your memory. In 5e, it doesn't work that way -- casting a spell doesn't cause you to forget how to cast it. However, "un-preparing" a spell (like, when you choose to prepare other spells instead of this spell) that is not permanently known does still have that effect until you go through the trouble to prepare it again.
The concept seems to be that some spells (like Cantrips) are very simple and therefore everything that you need to know to cast it just remains in your long-term memory (in your mind, "always prepared"). Once you "learn" these spells, they are "known". In addition, some features might explicitly cause you to "know" or "learn" more complex spells, even though typically they are too complex to remain in long-term memory. However, sort of like studying for exams, there is a mental process that is always available for complex spells (depending on your class) where you can temporarily "cram" for the exam, and you can know the information really well in the short-term. Once you are done using that information, you perform a "brain-dump" so that you can free up your mental space to prepare for the next day's exam and you go through the "cramming for the exam" process all over again for a different exam, temporarily learning different information. And so on. Never truly learning any of these spells but just having the ability to prepare them as needed. Lastly, you might discover a method that is like bringing your smartphone into the exam room and looking up the answers. To me, this is what is happening with the Invocations and with many other traits, feats and features throughout the game which grant you the ability to cast a spell without ever knowing, learning, or preparing it. You actually don't necessarily know anything about the spell in your mind, even in the short-term, but you can still cast it. You are essentially cheating -- bypassing the normal general method of spellcasting by using a specific workaround.
But then that means there is clearly a rules oversight because spells can't be nothing spells. We can't have a spell DC or attack bonus (which several invocations need) without a casting stat.
There is no rule which actually requires a spellcasting stat or spellcasting modifier. If you don't have a spellcasting modifier, you just don't include that into the formula for the DC (you would basically use +0). I remember this scenario coming up in a recent thread that had something to do with how a certain type of Rogue was attempting to cast a spell, possibly when using a magic item to do so -- whatever it was, it didn't have a spellcasting modifier.
However, the rules do say that if there is a spellcasting modifier, it will always be determined by the feature, not by the spell itself:
Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell.
So, for example, even if the spells that are cast by using the Eldritch Invocation feature were considered to be Warlock spells and even if they were considered to be always prepared, there STILL would not be a spellcasting modifier for these spells when cast with this feature, because the Eldritch Invocation feature does not provide one.
But some people refuse to take the intuitive approach to understand that the list of spells that you actually have access to through a class are all of your spells for that class. Since people don't understand the rules that way, they tried to add a sentence to the preparation rules for each class that stated it. They just didn't quite get the wording perfect, so people still misunderstand it -- or actually, at this point, can't even make sense of it.
I'm not sure if I'm correctly following what you're trying to say here, but it's sort of starting to sound like your view on this is becoming more similar to mine now. But I'm assuming that when you say "the list of spells that you actually have access to through a class" you are actually talking about the [Class] spell list. Not the "list of prepared spells". As a Warlock, you pick and choose and ultimately create a list of prepared spells from among all of the Warlock spells that exist (on the Warlock spell list). As a Wizard, it's more complicated because he does not actually "have access to" all of the Wizard spells -- he only has access to the ones that are in his spellbook . . . and from that list he creates his list of prepared spells.
But then that means there is clearly a rules oversight because spells can't be nothing spells. We can't have a spell DC or attack bonus (which several invocations need) without a casting stat. So trying to make sense out of these rules as written is fruitless. I feel like this whole argument is moot until someone tags a rules designer into this thread.
Spells can be nothing spells. However, without the spellcasting ability designation, some of these spells aren't very good. Once we conclude that via strict RAW, the interpretation is fundamentally flawed, we can assess likely RAI.
I think what the rule should have said is: "If another feature gives you a spell, it counts as a warlock spell. If a feature gives you a spell that is always prepared, it doesn't count against the number that you can prepare with this feature." This seems to be the best statement of the apparent intent of the rule.
As to up2ng, no I don't agree with you but I don't feel like arguing. You still think the two distinct lists described in the Prepared Spells of Level 1+ section of each class are the same. I (and I think everyone else here) do not. We will not agree, so you need not try to convince me. It is no help that half of the classes use different wording than the others for this section either. Half say "choose (Class) Spells" (which sort of supports your view), and the other half say "choose from the (class) spell list" which makes the distinction between the two lists much more clear. It would be absolutely incomprehensible to think a rule telling you to make a list by selecting just a few spells from another list is actually telling you that those two lists are the same.
As to up2ng, no I don't agree with you but I don't feel like arguing. You still think the two distinct lists described in the Prepared Spells of Level 1+ section of each class are the same. I (and I think everyone else here) do not. We will not agree, so you need not try to convince me. It is no help that half of the classes use different wording than the others for this section either. Half say "choose (Class) Spells" (which sort of supports your view), and the other half say "choose from the (class) spell list" which makes the distinction between the two lists much more clear. It would be absolutely incomprehensible to think a rule telling you to make a list by selecting just a few spells from another list is actually telling you that those two lists are the same.
Wait, what? Are you talking about the Warlock's list of prepared spells of level 1+ that the player must create by following the procedures set forth in the feature vs the Warlock spell list that is published towards the end of the class beyond all of the descriptions of all of the class features? Of course those are two different lists. What gave you the impression that I thought those two lists were the same? That makes no sense.
I don't know why the authors weren't consistent between their phrasing of "choose (Class) Spells" vs "choose from the (Class) spell list", but those two statements are fully interchangeable.
The big published list with all of the spells on it is the Warlock spell list. Those are the Warlock spells. Wherever you see the term "Warlock spells" used in the game, by default it's referring to the spells that are on that big list.
The Pact Magic feature provides a procedure for selecting a few of those Warlock spells from that big Warlock spell list and adding them to your own list of prepared spells of level 1+. Those are the spells that you can cast with the Pact Magic feature. In some places, those spells that are on that small list might be referred to as "your Warlock spells". But that doesn't mean that the spell was not a Warlock spell until it was prepared by this feature. On the contrary, the Warlock spells are what they are, and they exist as Warlock spells before any feature interacts with them at all. They are referred to you as "yours" simply because those were the ones that you have chosen to prepare. Those are the particular Warlock spells that are now in your mind, ready to be cast.
While what I've just described might seem obvious, the original confusion had to do with multiclassing or if you were to learn a spell through a species trait or a feat. Suppose a spell exists on both the Warlock spell list and the Wizard spell list. I am a multiclass Warlock/Wizard. If I choose to use the Warlock's Pact Magic feature to prepare that spell that is on both class spell lists and I subsequently also use the Pact magic feature to cast that spell -- many were claiming that that means that the spell that I've just cast was a Warlock spell and only a Warlock spell. That is false. That spell was both a Warlock spell and a Wizard spell. It's on both Class lists. It might have only been on one of my prepared spells lists, but that has no relevance as to whether or not the spell is a Warlock spell or a Wizard spell. It only matters that it exists on both the Warlock spell list and the Wizard spell list, so it's both.
I can be pretty verbose at times, but I also have my pride as an editor. We owe it to ourselves and each other to be as clear and concise as possible. The fact that we're now six pages deep means at least one person is struggling with the assignment.
If a class has a feature (Pact Magic, Spellcasting, or otherwise) which grants you access to a spell, it's a [Class] spell for the purposes of whatever [Class] spell list your class is using if the feature says it's a [Class] spell for you. Silent Image isn't on the Warlock spell list, and it does not become a Warlock spell for you with Eldritch Invocation: Misty Visions. You even have a spellcasting ability for its DC, which is more than I can say for Jump (Eldritch Invocation: Otherworldly Leap), but it doesn't have the text calling it a Warlock spell.
Conversely, Chain Lightning isn't on the Bard spell list, but it still becomes a Bard spell for you if acquired via Magical Secrets because the all-important text is there.
There are no secret rules. This really should not be so difficult.
I'm going to amend my statement because, and I can't believe it's taken this long, I don't think anyone read this key piece of text under the Pact Magic feature.
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
Spells acquired via other Warlock features, such as Eldritch Invocation, count as Warlock spells; even if the invocation doesn't say so.
I can be pretty verbose at times, but I also have my pride as an editor. We owe it to ourselves and each other to be as clear and concise as possible. The fact that we're now six pages deep means at least one person is struggling with the assignment.
If a class has a feature (Pact Magic, Spellcasting, or otherwise) which grants you access to a spell, it's a [Class] spell for the purposes of whatever [Class] spell list your class is using if the feature says it's a [Class] spell for you. Silent Image isn't on the Warlock spell list, and it does not become a Warlock spell for you with Eldritch Invocation: Misty Visions. You even have a spellcasting ability for its DC, which is more than I can say for Jump (Eldritch Invocation: Otherworldly Leap), but it doesn't have the text calling it a Warlock spell.
Conversely, Chain Lightning isn't on the Bard spell list, but it still becomes a Bard spell for you if acquired via Magical Secrets because the all-important text is there.
There are no secret rules. This really should not be so difficult.
I'm going to amend my statement because, and I can't believe it's taken this long, I don't think anyone read this key piece of text under the Pact Magic feature.
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
Spells acquired via other Warlock features, such as Eldritch Invocation, count as Warlock spells; even if the invocation doesn't say so.
The problem with that is the part about the feature giving you spells that you always have prepared. And while Pact of the Tome does specifically use that terminology for when you acquire its spells, all the "cast at will" Eldritch Invocations do not say anything about having their spells prepared, just that you can cast them with the feature. Thus, by a strict RAW reading, they don't meet the requirement laid out in Pact Magic to qualify as Warlock spells. It's a semantic fine point and probably more an oversight than anything else since the only option that would actually have the potential to function differently is False Life iirc, but that is how the text itself is laid out. Like I said, if I had to parse RAI I'd count them as Warlock spells since I don't see how that breaks anything with class or subclass features, but by the hard RAW those invocations fall short of the threshold defined in Pact Magic.
It would be extremely weird to tell players: "thanks to your Warlock experience/patron, along with your unique feature Eldritch Invocations, exclusive to Warlocks, you can cast Silent Image or Disguise Self . However, since these are not Warlock spells, you spellcasting ability for them is [segmentation-fault]"
Personally, I don't feel that's the correct interpretation of the rules.
If we consider spells in 2024 as falling into two categories: cantrips as "known" and level 1+ spells as "prepared", then by default, Eldritch Invocations spells would be considered prepared.
No, up2ng, this is what the first couple of pages were about, and I don't want to rehash it. The list you are making in the prepared spells section is the "(class) spells you can cast" or the "Your (class) spells". You casting a warlock spell is predicated by you being able to cast a warlock spell. That is to say, features that work on "your warlock spells" or "warlock spells you cast" don't care about canonical spell lists, they only care about being one of your warlock spells -- ie one you prepared on that list. Again, the reasoning is laid out in #103.
The question is what one of those two lists matters. You cannot help because the rules intent is different from your opinion. My opinion is that the rules are clearly written to care how you cast spell in all places that affect casting of spells but not ones where you are selecting spells from those canonical lists to add to your list. Your opinion is valid, not necessarily correct.
I believe no feature cares what spell list a spell is on other than "the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature" because if it didn't matter how the caster knew the spell, then the feature would indicate that, as it does whenever it works on any spell you cast or spells from specific schools. We have plenty of examples of that and way way way too many spells that appear on so many class lists that it just doesn't make sense for it to matter what canonical class list it is on.
Thousands of words in essays on the topic can't make any sense of the other view.
This is, of course, directly contradicted by the actual Rules As Written
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Incorrect. You forgot to highlight the rest of the clause:
So, in fact, the actual way that this works is that another Warlock feature must give you a spell that you always have prepared in order for that spell to count as a Warlock spell for you. If that prerequisite is not met, then the spell in question does not apply to that rule.
Examples of Warlock features that do this are Contact Patron:
and with a loose reading, the Pact of the Tome Eldritch Invocation:
If we really want to go into the weeds, the spells provided by Pact of the Tome do not qualify either. This is because those spells are not "always prepared". Instead, they are prepared while certain conditions are met, but they are not prepared when those conditions are not met. This is why that invocation explicitly adds the fact that "they function as Warlock spells for you", instead of assuming that the similar language given in the Pact Magic rule would apply.
Most of the Warlock's Eldritch Invocations do NOT possess this language about the spell being "always prepared".
Now, even if you wanted to make a logical leap and assume that spells that are "known" or "learned" are considered to be "always prepared" in the mind (there is no rule that actually says this, but without this logic we would be unable to cast any Cantrips -- this needs to be clarified via errata), these spells from most of the invocations STILL do NOT qualify because these invocations in question do NOT say that the provided spell is "known" or "learned". Instead, the Warlock is "imbued" with the ability to cast the spell.
This is a fine observation but it's the wrong conclusion. It's true that a lot of features might "add" to the class list or require you to "choose from" the class list, but features do not generally use the class list as its own category of spells that the feature will check for as a qualifying requirement. Instead, features generally care about whether or not the spell is a [Class] spell (such as a Cleric spell or a Warlock spell), which is a slightly broader category.
The category of spells that is referred to as the [Class] spells is a collection of all spells which appear on that class's spell list as well as any other spell that explicitly "counts as" a [Class] spell for you.
Whether or not a spell counts as a [Class] spell (such as a Warlock spell) has absolutely nothing at all to do with how the spellcaster knows the spell or how he has prepared the spell or how he has cast the spell or which trait, feat or feature he is using to do so. You won't find anything in the rules which says anything like that. Features such as Pact Magic say that they provide information that "details how you use those [general spellcasting] rules with Warlock spells". Not to "create" Warlock spells or anything like that. The Warlock spells already exist and features such as Pact Magic are designed to work with those specific spells, and not with any other spells.
No, I didn't
As Wolf has already cited multiple times in this thread, the 2024 rules explicitly use the word 'prepared' to describe any spell you are casting, unless you are casting it from a magic item. There's no third option
If a feature gives you ability to cast a spell, then that spell must always be prepared
You are certainly free to ignore rules you find inconvenient for whatever reason, but you are not then making a RAW argument
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh, that's a massively gross misinterpretation of that general rule. There's nothing in that rule that says that it is assumed that a spell has been prepared just because it is being cast. It's the other way around. This rule outlines the general procedure for things that you are required to do in order to cast a spell in the future. This general procedure is always available. Preparing a spell is a method of causing the spell to be ready to cast from your mind. But there are specific rules which supersede general rules all over the place in the game.
Features do what they say. They certainly don't do things that they don't say.
I can be pretty verbose at times, but I also have my pride as an editor. We owe it to ourselves and each other to be as clear and concise as possible. The fact that we're now six pages deep means at least one person is struggling with the assignment.
If a class has a feature (Pact Magic, Spellcasting, or otherwise) which grants you access to a spell, it's a [Class] spell for the purposes of whatever [Class] spell list your class is using if the feature says it's a [Class] spell for you. Silent Image isn't on the Warlock spell list, and it does not become a Warlock spell for you with Eldritch Invocation: Misty Visions. You even have a spellcasting ability for its DC, which is more than I can say for Jump (Eldritch Invocation: Otherworldly Leap), but it doesn't have the text calling it a Warlock spell.
Conversely, Chain Lightning isn't on the Bard spell list, but it still becomes a Bard spell for you if acquired via Magical Secrets because the all-important text is there.
There are no secret rules. This really should not be so difficult.
First, that section is a general rule. Invocations create exceptions and supersede the general rule.
The invocations are an exception to needing to prepare a spell or have access to it via a magic item. You do not have the spells prepared and cannot cast them with your spell slots unless you otherwise have them prepared or another exception allows you.
You should make sure your understanding of RAW is absolute before making accusatory statements.
There is room for debate about RAW and RAI. The strictest reading of RAW does not give you the spells as always prepared and therefore prevents you from counting them as Warlock spells, but then that leaves no defined attribute for spell attacks and save DCs. For that reason, we have to assume that RAI is that they are Warlock spells, but there is nothing that says they are always prepared.
Take a look at Paladin for example.
The Paladin has the ability to cast Divine Smite without a spell slot. Your assumption is that this means that it always prepared. It would not be, except that it says explicitly that it is always prepared. Faithful Steed is the same way. Favored Enemy for Rangers is the same way. Contact Patron for a Warlock is the same way.
This creates a pattern that reinforces that the interpretation that Invocations Spells are not automatically prepared.
Nothing in the Invocations actually say you have the spell prepared. Even Pact of the Chain says that "You learn the Find Familiar spell and can cast it as a Magic action without expending a spell slot" but "learning" the spell has no meaning in 2024. Instead, you effectively cast it at will as a Magic action (!) without a slot (there is no benefit to upcasting it anyway).
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The general rule explicitly tells you "your features specify which spells you have access to". Eldritch Invocations are a class feature. There's no "specific beats general" here
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I actually do think it might have been a bit of an overreach on my part to suggest that being able to cast a spell meant that it was prepared, as of course, the recent discussion centered around the idea that invocations might be intentionally not cast-able with slots. Although it is certainly oddly redundant for *nearly* every feature in every class that gives classes spells to tell you that they are prepared and count as class spells but then to have an additional line that says any feature that adds prepared spells to your class list.
But then that means there is clearly a rules oversight because spells can't be nothing spells. We can't have a spell DC or attack bonus (which several invocations need) without a casting stat. So trying to make sense out of these rules as written is fruitless. I feel like this whole argument is moot until someone tags a rules designer into this thread.
Then again, if the authors thought they could trust people to intuit what a warlock spell was, then they wouldn't have *tried* to go out of their way to fix it for this update. But some people refuse to take the intuitive approach to understand that the list of spells that you actually have access to through a class are all of your spells for that class. Since people don't understand the rules that way, they tried to add a sentence to the preparation rules for each class that stated it. They just didn't quite get the wording perfect, so people still misunderstand it -- or actually, at this point, can't even make sense of it.
The individual invocations don't, but Pact Magic does
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But Eldritch Invocations and Pact Magic are separate features.
Arguably the hard RAW is that since the Invocations don't let you "prepare" the spell the way other features do, the spells they give don't count as Warlock spells and instead fall in a grey area. But in practice I think it fits better for them to count; the only Invocation spells that appear to be impacted by it in relation to subclass features are Disguise Self and Silent Image for Psychic Spells, and it's way too on-brand to be able to make illusions or change your appearance without V or S components.
It's only a conflict if you assume "Pact Magic spells" (as in, spells cast with pact slots) and "Warlock spells" mean the same thing
A spell accessed via Pact Magic is a Warlock spell, but a Warlock spell accessed through an invocation isn't a Pact Magic spell, because they are separate class features
This is true for any casting class. A spell prepared from a wizard's spellbook, and their Spellcasting feature, is obviously a Wizard spell, but there may be Wizard spells they have prepared and can cast (see invisibility via a Diviner's Third Eye feature, for instance, which uses the exact same language as warlock invocations) that aren't necessarily in their spellbook
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What I do think has merit, and I hope to see it explicitly added somewhere to the general rules, is the concept that if a spell IS "known" or "learned" then we can consider that to be "always prepared" since knowing something implies that it's permanently in your mind. This would at least allow the Cantrip mechanic to make sense. But a feature has to at least say that you know or learn the spell for this to apply.
I honestly believe that they are going for something that harkens back to the old-school days when spells were "memorized" over the course of several hours of study. Back then, when the spell was cast, it was erased from your memory. In 5e, it doesn't work that way -- casting a spell doesn't cause you to forget how to cast it. However, "un-preparing" a spell (like, when you choose to prepare other spells instead of this spell) that is not permanently known does still have that effect until you go through the trouble to prepare it again.
The concept seems to be that some spells (like Cantrips) are very simple and therefore everything that you need to know to cast it just remains in your long-term memory (in your mind, "always prepared"). Once you "learn" these spells, they are "known". In addition, some features might explicitly cause you to "know" or "learn" more complex spells, even though typically they are too complex to remain in long-term memory. However, sort of like studying for exams, there is a mental process that is always available for complex spells (depending on your class) where you can temporarily "cram" for the exam, and you can know the information really well in the short-term. Once you are done using that information, you perform a "brain-dump" so that you can free up your mental space to prepare for the next day's exam and you go through the "cramming for the exam" process all over again for a different exam, temporarily learning different information. And so on. Never truly learning any of these spells but just having the ability to prepare them as needed. Lastly, you might discover a method that is like bringing your smartphone into the exam room and looking up the answers. To me, this is what is happening with the Invocations and with many other traits, feats and features throughout the game which grant you the ability to cast a spell without ever knowing, learning, or preparing it. You actually don't necessarily know anything about the spell in your mind, even in the short-term, but you can still cast it. You are essentially cheating -- bypassing the normal general method of spellcasting by using a specific workaround.
There is no rule which actually requires a spellcasting stat or spellcasting modifier. If you don't have a spellcasting modifier, you just don't include that into the formula for the DC (you would basically use +0). I remember this scenario coming up in a recent thread that had something to do with how a certain type of Rogue was attempting to cast a spell, possibly when using a magic item to do so -- whatever it was, it didn't have a spellcasting modifier.
However, the rules do say that if there is a spellcasting modifier, it will always be determined by the feature, not by the spell itself:
So, for example, even if the spells that are cast by using the Eldritch Invocation feature were considered to be Warlock spells and even if they were considered to be always prepared, there STILL would not be a spellcasting modifier for these spells when cast with this feature, because the Eldritch Invocation feature does not provide one.
I'm not sure if I'm correctly following what you're trying to say here, but it's sort of starting to sound like your view on this is becoming more similar to mine now. But I'm assuming that when you say "the list of spells that you actually have access to through a class" you are actually talking about the [Class] spell list. Not the "list of prepared spells". As a Warlock, you pick and choose and ultimately create a list of prepared spells from among all of the Warlock spells that exist (on the Warlock spell list). As a Wizard, it's more complicated because he does not actually "have access to" all of the Wizard spells -- he only has access to the ones that are in his spellbook . . . and from that list he creates his list of prepared spells.
Pact Magic only addresses spells that are always prepared from Warlock Features.
Spells can be nothing spells. However, without the spellcasting ability designation, some of these spells aren't very good. Once we conclude that via strict RAW, the interpretation is fundamentally flawed, we can assess likely RAI.
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I think what the rule should have said is: "If another feature gives you a spell, it counts as a warlock spell. If a feature gives you a spell that is always prepared, it doesn't count against the number that you can prepare with this feature." This seems to be the best statement of the apparent intent of the rule.
As to up2ng, no I don't agree with you but I don't feel like arguing. You still think the two distinct lists described in the Prepared Spells of Level 1+ section of each class are the same. I (and I think everyone else here) do not. We will not agree, so you need not try to convince me. It is no help that half of the classes use different wording than the others for this section either. Half say "choose (Class) Spells" (which sort of supports your view), and the other half say "choose from the (class) spell list" which makes the distinction between the two lists much more clear. It would be absolutely incomprehensible to think a rule telling you to make a list by selecting just a few spells from another list is actually telling you that those two lists are the same.
Wait, what? Are you talking about the Warlock's list of prepared spells of level 1+ that the player must create by following the procedures set forth in the feature vs the Warlock spell list that is published towards the end of the class beyond all of the descriptions of all of the class features? Of course those are two different lists. What gave you the impression that I thought those two lists were the same? That makes no sense.
I don't know why the authors weren't consistent between their phrasing of "choose (Class) Spells" vs "choose from the (Class) spell list", but those two statements are fully interchangeable.
The big published list with all of the spells on it is the Warlock spell list. Those are the Warlock spells. Wherever you see the term "Warlock spells" used in the game, by default it's referring to the spells that are on that big list.
The Pact Magic feature provides a procedure for selecting a few of those Warlock spells from that big Warlock spell list and adding them to your own list of prepared spells of level 1+. Those are the spells that you can cast with the Pact Magic feature. In some places, those spells that are on that small list might be referred to as "your Warlock spells". But that doesn't mean that the spell was not a Warlock spell until it was prepared by this feature. On the contrary, the Warlock spells are what they are, and they exist as Warlock spells before any feature interacts with them at all. They are referred to you as "yours" simply because those were the ones that you have chosen to prepare. Those are the particular Warlock spells that are now in your mind, ready to be cast.
While what I've just described might seem obvious, the original confusion had to do with multiclassing or if you were to learn a spell through a species trait or a feat. Suppose a spell exists on both the Warlock spell list and the Wizard spell list. I am a multiclass Warlock/Wizard. If I choose to use the Warlock's Pact Magic feature to prepare that spell that is on both class spell lists and I subsequently also use the Pact magic feature to cast that spell -- many were claiming that that means that the spell that I've just cast was a Warlock spell and only a Warlock spell. That is false. That spell was both a Warlock spell and a Wizard spell. It's on both Class lists. It might have only been on one of my prepared spells lists, but that has no relevance as to whether or not the spell is a Warlock spell or a Wizard spell. It only matters that it exists on both the Warlock spell list and the Wizard spell list, so it's both.
I hope that helps.
I'm going to amend my statement because, and I can't believe it's taken this long, I don't think anyone read this key piece of text under the Pact Magic feature.
Spells acquired via other Warlock features, such as Eldritch Invocation, count as Warlock spells; even if the invocation doesn't say so.
The problem with that is the part about the feature giving you spells that you always have prepared. And while Pact of the Tome does specifically use that terminology for when you acquire its spells, all the "cast at will" Eldritch Invocations do not say anything about having their spells prepared, just that you can cast them with the feature. Thus, by a strict RAW reading, they don't meet the requirement laid out in Pact Magic to qualify as Warlock spells. It's a semantic fine point and probably more an oversight than anything else since the only option that would actually have the potential to function differently is False Life iirc, but that is how the text itself is laid out. Like I said, if I had to parse RAI I'd count them as Warlock spells since I don't see how that breaks anything with class or subclass features, but by the hard RAW those invocations fall short of the threshold defined in Pact Magic.
It would be extremely weird to tell players: "thanks to your Warlock experience/patron, along with your unique feature Eldritch Invocations, exclusive to Warlocks, you can cast Silent Image or Disguise Self . However, since these are not Warlock spells, you spellcasting ability for them is [segmentation-fault]"
Personally, I don't feel that's the correct interpretation of the rules.
If we consider spells in 2024 as falling into two categories: cantrips as "known" and level 1+ spells as "prepared", then by default, Eldritch Invocations spells would be considered prepared.
No, up2ng, this is what the first couple of pages were about, and I don't want to rehash it. The list you are making in the prepared spells section is the "(class) spells you can cast" or the "Your (class) spells". You casting a warlock spell is predicated by you being able to cast a warlock spell. That is to say, features that work on "your warlock spells" or "warlock spells you cast" don't care about canonical spell lists, they only care about being one of your warlock spells -- ie one you prepared on that list. Again, the reasoning is laid out in #103.
The question is what one of those two lists matters. You cannot help because the rules intent is different from your opinion. My opinion is that the rules are clearly written to care how you cast spell in all places that affect casting of spells but not ones where you are selecting spells from those canonical lists to add to your list. Your opinion is valid, not necessarily correct.