Some features let you cast spells despite not being prepared specifically, while other features specifically let you cast spells being always prepared. For example;
The Magic Initiate feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Fey Touched feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Ritual Caster feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Shadow Touched feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Telepathic feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Fiendish Legacy feature let Tiefling cast spells always prepared,
The Elven Lineage feature let Elf cast spells always prepared.
The Forest Gnome Lineage feature let Gnome cast spells always prepared.
The Mantle of Majesty feature let a Glamour Bard cast spells always prepared.
The War God's Blessing feature let a War Cleric cast spells always prepared.
The Star Map Spells feature let a Star Druid cast spells always prepared.
The Telekinetic Master feature let a Psy Warrior Fighter cast spells always prepared.
The Paladin'sSmite feature let a Paladin cast spells always prepared.
The Faithful Steedfeature let a Paladin cast spells always prepared.
The Favored Enemy feature let a Ranger cast spells always prepared.
The Dragon Companion feature let a Dragon Sorcerer cast spells always prepared.
The Contact Patron feature let a Warlock cast spells always prepared.
The Misty Escape feature let a Archfey Warlock cast spells always prepared.
The Bewitching Magic feature let a Archfey Warlock cast spells always prepared.
The Spell Breaker feature let a Abjurer Wizard cast spells always prepared.
A spell is either a class spell, granted by a feature of the class, or it isn't.
Incorrect.
A (Class) spell, such as a Warlock spell is a spell that exists on that class's spell list, such as the Warlock spell list. It can also be a spell which has been explicitly declared to be a (Class) spell for you. It has nothing to do with the usage of any class feature.
Either Jounichi1983 is correct or Burning Hands isn't a Warlock Spell for a Warlock with a Fiend Patron.
Does a class feature make Burning Hands a Warlock Spell?
The way that this works is that you first look at the rules for the feature. The Fiend Patron subclass provides a feature at Level 3 called Fiend Spells which provides that Burning Hands spell. It turns out that this feature has this rule:
when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Fiend Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
Now, we go back and revisit the Pact Magic feature which has this rule:
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
so those two features work together in the specified manner. Note that in this case the Fiend Spells feature doesn't say anything about actually casting any spells (unlike, say, the Contact Patron feature). Instead, the sole purpose of this feature is to prepare spells. To actually cast those spells, you would have to use the Pact Magic feature and all of the rules listed within the Pact Magic feature would apply.
Most of the Eldritch Invocation features do NOT work like this.
Oh. So Class Features make Burning Hands a Warlock Spell and it wouldn't be one without those Class Features?
The feature Fiend Spells makes Warlock have Burning Hands always prepared among other spells.
Many features give you spells always prepared such as Oaths Spells, Circle Spells, Domain spells etc which without them those spells are not always prepared.
Since those features don't let you cast them without expanding a spell slot, you still need to use a spell slot to do so.
Whereas some features specifically let you cast spells not prepared without expanding a spell slot as i wrote in post #136.
Just one small nitpick: The reason why a spell that is cast with an Eldritch Invocation feature cannot generally be cast with a Spellcasting Ability and cannot generally be cast with a Spellcasting Focus is not because the spell is not a Warlock spell. It's because the feature being used doesn't provide those options. We must always follow the rules for the feature that we are using.
For example, the Invisibility spell actually IS a Warlock spell -- it appears on the Warlock spell list. However, if you use the One with Shadows Eldritch Invocation to cast this spell (without a spell slot) then you follow the rules for this Eldritch Invocation feature, NOT the Pact Magic feature. Which, among other things, means no Spellcasting Ability and no Spellcasting Focus.
My apologies, but I've decided to walk back this previous explanation that I gave in a recent post. I'll explain way:
It turns out that all of the various rules which exist within class features tend to fall into one of two categories regarding how they work mechanically, based on how they are worded:
First, there are features which provide rules that describe what a character can DO, and they often provide procedures for how to do it. We could refer to these as "active rules" since these are rules that require a character to proactively act by "using" the rules in the feature to perform the specified task. These rules only apply to the feature which provides that rule and we have to remember to only follow the active rules for the feature that we are using. This might lead to a player making a statement such as:
"I use my Uncanny Dodge feature to take a Reaction to halve the attack's damage against me."
The other type of rule is a "passive rule". This is a rule that applies and remains in effect even when the character is not doing anything specific to activate it. On an ongoing basis, you continue to reap the benefits of these rules once they are "unlocked" by gaining enough levels to acquire the feature. You can apply these rules even while using other features. In this case, a player might say:
"Because of my Slippery Mind feature, my Rogue applies his proficiency bonus to this Wisdom saving throw."
Again, this character isn't actively doing anything to take advantage of this rule -- it just always applies to this character once the feature is unlocked. He isn't really "using" the feature. The rules within the feature just always (passively) apply to the character.
My previous explanation above holds up if we assume that all of the rules within the Pact Magic feature are active rules that require the character to be using the feature in order to take advantage of those rules. This is true for many rules within the Pact Magic feature that have to do with the procedures for preparing and casting spells.
But I now believe that a better interpretation is that the Pact Magic feature is a combination of both concepts. It provides some active rules that allow a character to do something specific, such as preparing a list of spells that are available for casting. But based on how some of the other rules of the feature are written, the Pact Magic feature also provides a few passive rules that are always applied to the character once this feature is unlocked. These include:
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
and
"Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells."
and
"Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus for your Warlock spells."
So, to make a long story short, under this interpretation, whether or not you can apply your spellcasting ability does not depend on which feature you are using to cast your spell -- the rule does not apply only to the Pact Magic feature, but instead it always passively applies to the character. In that case, the only requirement that matters is that the spell that you are casting is one of "your Warlock spells". The term "your Warlock spells" basically just means "Warlock spells" that you possess in your mind.
And that particular detail remains a problem for the Eldritch Invocation spells. In most cases, those spells are not Warlock spells for all of the reasons previously posted.
This was summarized in the entry for Pact Magic: "The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description."
The thing is that most Eldritch Invocations don't give you spells that you always have prepared, they just let you cast them without being given or prepared. Pact of the Tome is the only one so perhaps something is missing here.
Ugh, I'm actually not happy with my latest post either. The problem with that interpretation is that it opens up the possibility of being able to apply more than one spellcasting ability to a spell in certain situations, which of course cannot be possible.
So, now we're back to the original interpretation that the Spellcasting Ability rule and the Spellcasting Focus rule only applying when using the feature that those rules are found in, as explained back on Post #143. This is more or less confirmed by the multiclass rules anyway. There are also some other general rules that I had forgotten about, such as this one from Creating a Character:
Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell.
There are also many traits, feats and features besides the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features which explicitly declare what the Spellcasting Ability for the provided spells are.
Interestingly, the rules are a little bit different when casting a spell from a magic item (from the DMG):
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
But that rule for casting a spell from a magic item does set a pretty good precedent for the fact that it's possible to cast a spell without a Spellcasting Ability and when you do you just use +0 for the modifier.
Now we come back to the Spellcasting Focus rule that is found in each of the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features. It is interesting that this rule is located in the same place, shares the same formatting and is written in a very similar manner to the Spellcasting Ability rule for each of those features. And yet, it's a lot less clear if this rule should apply only when the feature that this rule is found in is being used to cast a spell. Or, if this rule is just always available to a member of the class as soon as this feature is unlocked. The general rules which might explain this are a bit more vague:
Glossary:
Some classes allow its members to use certain types of Spellcasting Focuses. See also chapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
From Chapter 7: Spells --> Casting Spells --> Components --> Material (M):
the spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution . . . to use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise.
The wording of these general rules for a Spellcasting Focus seem to allow for the possibility that the Spellcasting Focus rule within the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features could be treated as a "passive rule", which always applies to the character once the feature is unlocked . . . unlike the Spellcasting Ability rule.
Under this interpretation, if you were a Cleric/Wizard and you happened to be casting a spell from your mind that is both a Cleric spell and a Wizard spell (because it appears on the Cleric spell list and the Wizard spell list), then you would actually have a choice about whether or not you wanted to use your Arcane Focus or your Holy Symbol (but you can't use both at the same time), regardless of how the spell was prepared.
EDIT:
Under the other interpretation, where the Spellcasting Focus rule only applies to the feature that it is found in, then in the above example of the Cleric/Wizard casting a spell that is a Cleric spell and a Wizard spell you would not be able to use any Spellcasting Focus at all unless the Spellcasting feature was used to cast it (or if the feature being used explicitly provides its own Spellcasting Focus rule). If you are using one of the Spellcasting features to cast it then you would have to use the Spellcasting Focus which corresponds to that feature.
If you're a Cleric/Wizard or any other multiclass character with the Spellcasting feature, you must follow the next rule and use the spellcasting focus appropriate for the spell you're casting, which is associated with one of your classes.
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. [...]
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
Cleric:
Spellcasting Focus. You can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus for your Cleric spells.
Wizard:
Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells.
When multiclassed, each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes as you determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, so a Wizard/Cleric casting Locate Object for example would be associated with the class it was prepared and use the Spellcasting Focus of said class.
Casting a spell prepared from something else such as Elven Lineage would rely on component pouch.
If you're a Cleric/Wizard or any other multiclass character with the Spellcasting feature, you must follow the next rule and use the spellcasting focus appropriate for the spell you're casting, which is associated with one of your classes.
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. [...]
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
When multiclassed, each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes as you determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, so a Wizard/Cleric casting Locate Object for example would be associated with the class it was prepared and use the Spellcasting Focus of said class.
Casting a spell prepared from something else such as Elven Lineage would rely on component pouch.
You are both reading that rule incorrectly.
The multiclass rule specifies which Spellcasting Ability is used when the spell is cast. It does not say anything about the Spellcasting Focus. These two things are listed seperately in every Spellcasting and Pact Magic feature.
I just finished explaining that these two rules might work differently mechanically. The Spellcasting Ability rule seems to be tied to using the feature in which the rule is written to cast the spell in question. That's supported by the wording of the multiclass rule. On the other hand, the Spellcasting Focus rule seems to be a passive rule which is always applied to the character once the feature is unlocked. If that is the case, then you might have more than one Spellcasting Focus rule which is always applied passively, and you might possess more than one physical item that can be used as a Spellcasting Focus. In that case, as long as the spell is cast from your mind, if the spell is a Cleric spell and also a Wizard spell then you can use either your Holy Symbol or your Arcane Focus when you cast it.
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. [...]
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
You are both reading that rule incorrectly.
The multiclass rule specifies which Spellcasting Ability is used when the spell is cast. It does not say anything about the Spellcasting Focus. These two things are listed seperately in every Spellcasting and Pact Magic feature.
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes comma and you use that classes spellcasting ability. Two statements are in that sentence.
If you prepare Locate Object as a Cleric, you can't use your Wizard Arcane Focus because you prepared it as a Cleric spell.
When multiclassed, the Spellcasting features have additional rules;
Class Feature: When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level. A few features have additional rules when you’re multiclassing. Check the information about multiclassing included in each of your classes’ descriptions. Special rules apply to Extra Attack, Spellcasting, and features (such as Unarmored Defense) that give you alternative ways to calculate your Armor Class.
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, not both and each of the Wizard and Cleric Spellcasting feature details how you use those rules, which includes Spellcasting Focus. If the spell isn't associated with one of your class, you can't use any of it's Spellcasting rules, including it's Spellcasting Focus.
Spellcasting: The information below details how you use those rules with Wizard spells, which appear in the Wizard spell list later in the class’s description.
Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells.
Spellcasting: The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description.
Spellcasting Focus. You can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus for your Cleric spells.
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. [...]
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
You are both reading that rule incorrectly.
The multiclass rule specifies which Spellcasting Ability is used when the spell is cast. It does not say anything about the Spellcasting Focus. These two things are listed seperately in every Spellcasting and Pact Magic feature.
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes comma and you use that classes spellcasting ability. Two statements are in that sentence.
If you prepare Locate Object as a Cleric, you can't use your Wizard Arcane Focus because you prepared it as a Cleric spell.
There is no such thing as preparing a spell "as a" Cleric spell. A spell is already a Cleric spell, or it isn't. If it is a Cleric spell, then you can use the Cleric Spellcasting feature to prepare it, since being a Cleric spell is a prerequisite for doing that.
When you do that, if you have more than one Spellcasting feature, then you make a note of which one you used (the prepared spell is associated with one of your classes) so that you remember to use the same one to cast the spell, since that is the only way to use the correct Spellcasting Ability in accordance with the multiclass rule. None of that has anything to do with somehow causing the spell to become a Cleric spell. That's not what the multiclass rule is talking about. That rule is just saying that if you used a Spellcasting feature to prepare a spell then you use the same one to cast the spell and you use the Spellcasting Ability which corresponds to that feature.
When multiclassed, the Spellcasting features have additional rules;
Class Feature: When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level. A few features have additional rules when you’re multiclassing. Check the information about multiclassing included in each of your classes’ descriptions. Special rules apply to Extra Attack, Spellcasting, and features (such as Unarmored Defense) that give you alternative ways to calculate your Armor Class.
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, not both and each of the Wizard and Cleric Spellcasting feature details how you use those rules, which includes Spellcasting Focus. If the spell isn't associated with one of your class, you can't use any of it's Spellcasting rules, including it's Spellcasting Focus.
Spellcasting: The information below details how you use those rules with Wizard spells, which appear in the Wizard spell list later in the class’s description.
Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells.
Spellcasting: The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description.
Spellcasting Focus. You can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus for your Cleric spells.
As I mentioned in my last couple of posts, I no longer believe that the Spellcasting Focus rules within each Spellcasting feature works that way. Based on how these specific rules are worded and based on how all of the general rules which pertain to a Spellcasting Focus are worded, this appears to be rule which always applies to the character once the feature is unlocked instead of it being tied to the use of the feature.
In that case, as long as the spell is cast from your mind and as long as the spell is on the correct (class) spell list, then you can use that Spellcasting Focus, even if you aren't using the Spellcasting feature to cast the spell. This is explicitly NOT how the Spellcasting Ability rule works, however.
If you're a Cleric/Wizard or any other multiclass character with the Spellcasting feature, you must follow the next rule and use the spellcasting focus appropriate for the spell you're casting, which is associated with one of your classes.
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. [...]
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
When multiclassed, each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes as you determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, so a Wizard/Cleric casting Locate Object for example would be associated with the class it was prepared and use the Spellcasting Focus of said class.
Casting a spell prepared from something else such as Elven Lineage would rely on component pouch.
You are both reading that rule incorrectly.
The multiclass rule specifies which Spellcasting Ability is used when the spell is cast. It does not say anything about the Spellcasting Focus. These two things are listed seperately in every Spellcasting and Pact Magic feature.
I just finished explaining that these two rules might work differently mechanically. The Spellcasting Ability rule seems to be tied to using the feature in which the rule is written to cast the spell in question. That's supported by the wording of the multiclass rule. On the other hand, the Spellcasting Focus rule seems to be a passive rule which is always applied to the character once the feature is unlocked. If that is the case, then you might have more than one Spellcasting Focus rule which is always applied passively, and you might possess more than one physical item that can be used as a Spellcasting Focus. In that case, as long as the spell is cast from your mind, if the spell is a Cleric spell and also a Wizard spell then you can use either your Holy Symbol or your Arcane Focus when you cast it.
Do you have any idea how much it undermines your positions to watch you waffle on interpretations of the rules and then immediately make objectively incorrect statements?
Your Class spells are not the entire class spell list, that's merely the list you can draw from, but only what you have "prepared" via the class' spellcasting feature; or some other class feature which "prepares" a spell for you. When you cast a prepared spell via a class' spellcasting feature, you must abide by the class' feature. If you're a multiclassed Cleric (Domain of Light) and Wizard, you cannot cast Fireball using anything from the Wizard's spellcasting feature unless you've also prepared it as a Wizard. And while there's nothing in the rules preventing someone from doing that, I fail to see the point. Ultimately, without dual preparation, you could not use Intelligence as your spellcasting ability or an arcane focus to satisfy the material component.
The only other time a Class' spell list matters is when someone is attempting to scribe a Spell Scroll, because the spell must be prepared (except for cantrips, apparently), or cast via a one, since that requires the spell to be on the class' spell list.
And even if I concede that wrong about spells granted by Eldritch Invocations, it's still dumb as heck that so many are incompatible with an arcane focus.
The multiclass rule specifies which Spellcasting Ability is used when the spell is cast. It does not say anything about the Spellcasting Focus. These two things are listed seperately in every Spellcasting and Pact Magic feature.
The rules for this topic haven't changed and are simple. In short: a spellcasting focus can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
Wizard single class: Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus or your spellbook as a Spellcasting Focus for your Wizard spells.
Cleric/Wizard multiclass: you have two Spellcasting Focus. Use the one according to the spell you're casting thanks to your Spellcasting Feature.
Also... why are you making up things like "passive rules"? That way of explaining the rules doesn't help.
Do you have any idea how much it undermines your positions to watch you waffle on interpretations of the rules and then immediately make objectively incorrect statements?
I mean, this forum really isn't meant to be some sort of debate club. I'm not trying to "win" at anything around here. What do I care if my position about something is "undermined"? If I am correct about something then I am correct. Perception doesn't change that. The whole purpose of this forum is to help the community as a whole to learn more about the Rules as they are Written. We are all supposed to be sharing knowledge. It's not a contest.
As has always been the case for me around here, when I think that I was wrong about something, I will say so. Unlike most other people around here. I believe that that's important for future readers so that they can eventually get to the best answers by the end of the thread.
Your Class spells are not the entire class spell list, that's merely the list you can draw from, but only what you have "prepared" via the class' spellcasting feature; or some other class feature which "prepares" a spell for you.
Ok, people really need to stop saying this. It's wrong. This belief is like an absolute epidemic in this community. Constantly having to correct people on this point is becoming frustrating and exhausting. Can we move on from this belief soon please?
For those who still believe that it works this way, I implore you to please just try to do a brain dump of what you remember from the 2014 rules. Then, actually go back and really read the words that are written in the game for 2024.
A Warlock Spell is a spell that is on the Warlock spell list. The big list. That's just what the term means in this game under the 2024 ruleset. It's not debatable. That's what is actually written in the rules. Now, this doesn't really matter very much until a published feature within the game such as "Psychic Spells" from the Original Post comes along and uses this term within the feature by saying something like: "When you cast a Warlock spell . . . [something happens]". At that point, it becomes important to use the term correctly. In the moment, at the gaming table, if people are informally referring to a spell that was prepared by the Cleric Spellcasting feature as a "Cleric spell" because it was prepared that way . . . then, as long as everyone knows what each other is talking about then that's usually fine. But the problem with doing that is that if you get into this habit of using the term incorrectly, then when a published feature actually uses the term then there is a pretty good chance that you will end up misinterpreting how the feature actually works.
Whether or not a spell is a Warlock has absolutely nothing at all to do with how the spell was prepared, if it's even prepared at all. Nothing, nada, zilch, zippo, goose egg, exactly zero.
A Warlock spell is already a Warlock spell before you ever interact with it. In order to actually use the Pact Magic feature to prepare this spell in a certain way, the spell is required to already be a Warlock spell. If it's not already a Warlock spell, then you CANNOT use this feature to prepare it. It's not the other way around. First, it's a Warlock spell. THEN . . . IF it is a Warlock spell, you can use the Pact Magic feature to prepare that spell in such a way so that it (the Warlock spell) is placed onto your Warlock list of Prepared Spells of Level 1+. The spells on that small list are NOT Warlock spells because they are on that list. Saying so is 100% false. Instead, the small list is a list OF Warlock spells "that are available for you to cast with this feature".
Ultimately, without dual preparation, you could not use Intelligence as your spellcasting ability or an arcane focus to satisfy the material component.
While this is explicitly true of the Spellcasting Ability, I no longer believe that this is true of the Spellcasting Focus, based on how those specific rules are written and based on how all of the general rules which pertain to the Spellcasting Focus are written, which I have quoted and explained in my previous few posts. This point could still be open to debate though.
Also... why are you making up things like "passive rules"? That way of explaining the rules doesn't help.
Do you have a better term for this concept that you'd prefer me to use? It's true that I made up the term (more accurately, I had seen it described like this in another thread a long time ago). I had to call it something.
A lot of class features just always apply to the character. The character doesn't have to be "using" the feature to benefit from it. Once the feature is unlocked due to reaching the appropriate Level in that Class, it just always applies. In fact, most class features are like that.
Example: Barbarian -- Unarmored Defense:
"While you aren’t wearing any armor, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Constitution modifiers. You can use a Shield and still gain this benefit."
This is just something that happens and always applies to this character. He doesn't have to declare that he is doing anything in a certain way to take advantage of this. If the character happens to not be wearing any armor, the character's AC is automatically calculated in the manner described. If this is the only method that this character has to calculate AC, then it always applies automatically. It's not possible for the player to "forget" to do something in order to trigger this ability. It's not possible for the player to "do something wrong" or "do something different" in such a way that this feature doesn't apply. It just always applies.
Contrast this with: Barbarian -- Reckless Attack:
"You can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with increased ferocity. When you make your first attack roll on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you Advantage on attack rolls using Strength until the start of your next turn, but attack rolls against you have Advantage during that time."
This is a special ability that the character can choose to DO. It does not always apply. He must make the decision to do this -- to proactively perform the activity of attacking in a specific manner, rather than in some other manner. You must "use" this feature in the manner described to trigger the outcomes that are described.
Do you see the difference?
The point that I've been making in my recent posts is that even though the Spellcasting Focus rule exists within the Pact Magic feature, which is generally a feature that you have to decide to "use" for certain spell preparation and casting activities, I now believe that the Spellcasting Focus portion of the feature behaves more like the Unarmored Defense example -- once you gain the Pact Magic feature, this rule is "unlocked" and just always applies to your character. This is due to how the Spellcasting Focus rule itself is worded as well as how all of the general rules for using a Spellcasting Focus are worded.
[...] Casting a spell prepared from something else such as Elven Lineage would rely on component pouch.
This is important, and it's totally true.
I no longer agree with this. This is true of the Spellcasting Ability. But I think that the rules for the Spellcasting Focus work differently. For the Spellcasting Focus, in my opinion, the only requirements are that the spell has to belong to the correct class (generally because it's on that Class's spell list) and that the spell is "prepared in your mind" for casting.
As I said, this particular point about the Spellcasting Focus is still up for debate and if someone quotes some rules that change my mind about this, I will be happy to acknowledge that.
Okay, you didn't invent the terms. You've still made attempts to differentiate between "active" and "passive" rules, when no such terms exist in the books. [REDACTED]
The rules are the rules.
[REDACTED]
On the previous page, I drew a distinction between the class spell lists and what actually constitutes a class spell for a character. You disagreed with my assessment and implied I was stuck in a 2014 mindset.
I would like to know precisely why you think I'm wrong, why you think I'm stuck in that mindset, and what you think substantially changed between 2014 and 2024. Because the only way forward is for us to start understanding each other, and I don't feel like you've made the effort to do that.
In that case, as long as the spell is cast from your mind and as long as the spell is on the correct (class) spell list, then you can use that Spellcasting Focus, even if you aren't using the Spellcasting feature to cast the spell.
You are using the Cleric or Wizard Spellcasting feature to cast a spell as written in each of their respective Spellcasting feature:
Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature.
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Some features let you cast spells despite not being prepared specifically, while other features specifically let you cast spells being always prepared. For example;
The Magic Initiate feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Fey Touched feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Ritual Caster feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Shadow Touched feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Telepathic feat let you cast spells always prepared,
The Fiendish Legacy feature let Tiefling cast spells always prepared,
The Elven Lineage feature let Elf cast spells always prepared.
The Forest Gnome Lineage feature let Gnome cast spells always prepared.
The Mantle of Majesty feature let a Glamour Bard cast spells always prepared.
The War God's Blessing feature let a War Cleric cast spells always prepared.
The Star Map Spells feature let a Star Druid cast spells always prepared.
The Telekinetic Master feature let a Psy Warrior Fighter cast spells always prepared.
The Paladin's Smite feature let a Paladin cast spells always prepared.
The Faithful Steed feature let a Paladin cast spells always prepared.
The Favored Enemy feature let a Ranger cast spells always prepared.
The Dragon Companion feature let a Dragon Sorcerer cast spells always prepared.
The Contact Patron feature let a Warlock cast spells always prepared.
The Misty Escape feature let a Archfey Warlock cast spells always prepared.
The Bewitching Magic feature let a Archfey Warlock cast spells always prepared.
The Spell Breaker feature let a Abjurer Wizard cast spells always prepared.
Oh. So Class Features make Burning Hands a Warlock Spell and it wouldn't be one without those Class Features?
Got it.
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The feature Fiend Spells makes Warlock have Burning Hands always prepared among other spells.
Many features give you spells always prepared such as Oaths Spells, Circle Spells, Domain spells etc which without them those spells are not always prepared.
Since those features don't let you cast them without expanding a spell slot, you still need to use a spell slot to do so.
Whereas some features specifically let you cast spells not prepared without expanding a spell slot as i wrote in post #136.
The list is amazing, @Plaguescarred, congrats.
My apologies, but I've decided to walk back this previous explanation that I gave in a recent post. I'll explain way:
It turns out that all of the various rules which exist within class features tend to fall into one of two categories regarding how they work mechanically, based on how they are worded:
First, there are features which provide rules that describe what a character can DO, and they often provide procedures for how to do it. We could refer to these as "active rules" since these are rules that require a character to proactively act by "using" the rules in the feature to perform the specified task. These rules only apply to the feature which provides that rule and we have to remember to only follow the active rules for the feature that we are using. This might lead to a player making a statement such as:
"I use my Uncanny Dodge feature to take a Reaction to halve the attack's damage against me."
The other type of rule is a "passive rule". This is a rule that applies and remains in effect even when the character is not doing anything specific to activate it. On an ongoing basis, you continue to reap the benefits of these rules once they are "unlocked" by gaining enough levels to acquire the feature. You can apply these rules even while using other features. In this case, a player might say:
"Because of my Slippery Mind feature, my Rogue applies his proficiency bonus to this Wisdom saving throw."
Again, this character isn't actively doing anything to take advantage of this rule -- it just always applies to this character once the feature is unlocked. He isn't really "using" the feature. The rules within the feature just always (passively) apply to the character.
My previous explanation above holds up if we assume that all of the rules within the Pact Magic feature are active rules that require the character to be using the feature in order to take advantage of those rules. This is true for many rules within the Pact Magic feature that have to do with the procedures for preparing and casting spells.
But I now believe that a better interpretation is that the Pact Magic feature is a combination of both concepts. It provides some active rules that allow a character to do something specific, such as preparing a list of spells that are available for casting. But based on how some of the other rules of the feature are written, the Pact Magic feature also provides a few passive rules that are always applied to the character once this feature is unlocked. These include:
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
and
"Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells."
and
"Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus for your Warlock spells."
So, to make a long story short, under this interpretation, whether or not you can apply your spellcasting ability does not depend on which feature you are using to cast your spell -- the rule does not apply only to the Pact Magic feature, but instead it always passively applies to the character. In that case, the only requirement that matters is that the spell that you are casting is one of "your Warlock spells". The term "your Warlock spells" basically just means "Warlock spells" that you possess in your mind.
And that particular detail remains a problem for the Eldritch Invocation spells. In most cases, those spells are not Warlock spells for all of the reasons previously posted.
This was summarized in the entry for Pact Magic: "The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description."
The thing is that most Eldritch Invocations don't give you spells that you always have prepared, they just let you cast them without being given or prepared. Pact of the Tome is the only one so perhaps something is missing here.
Ugh, I'm actually not happy with my latest post either. The problem with that interpretation is that it opens up the possibility of being able to apply more than one spellcasting ability to a spell in certain situations, which of course cannot be possible.
So, now we're back to the original interpretation that the Spellcasting Ability rule and the Spellcasting Focus rule only applying when using the feature that those rules are found in, as explained back on Post #143. This is more or less confirmed by the multiclass rules anyway. There are also some other general rules that I had forgotten about, such as this one from Creating a Character:
There are also many traits, feats and features besides the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features which explicitly declare what the Spellcasting Ability for the provided spells are.
Interestingly, the rules are a little bit different when casting a spell from a magic item (from the DMG):
But that rule for casting a spell from a magic item does set a pretty good precedent for the fact that it's possible to cast a spell without a Spellcasting Ability and when you do you just use +0 for the modifier.
Now we come back to the Spellcasting Focus rule that is found in each of the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features. It is interesting that this rule is located in the same place, shares the same formatting and is written in a very similar manner to the Spellcasting Ability rule for each of those features. And yet, it's a lot less clear if this rule should apply only when the feature that this rule is found in is being used to cast a spell. Or, if this rule is just always available to a member of the class as soon as this feature is unlocked. The general rules which might explain this are a bit more vague:
Glossary:
From Chapter 7: Spells --> Casting Spells --> Components --> Material (M):
The wording of these general rules for a Spellcasting Focus seem to allow for the possibility that the Spellcasting Focus rule within the various Spellcasting and Pact Magic features could be treated as a "passive rule", which always applies to the character once the feature is unlocked . . . unlike the Spellcasting Ability rule.
Under this interpretation, if you were a Cleric/Wizard and you happened to be casting a spell from your mind that is both a Cleric spell and a Wizard spell (because it appears on the Cleric spell list and the Wizard spell list), then you would actually have a choice about whether or not you wanted to use your Arcane Focus or your Holy Symbol (but you can't use both at the same time), regardless of how the spell was prepared.
EDIT:
Under the other interpretation, where the Spellcasting Focus rule only applies to the feature that it is found in, then in the above example of the Cleric/Wizard casting a spell that is a Cleric spell and a Wizard spell you would not be able to use any Spellcasting Focus at all unless the Spellcasting feature was used to cast it (or if the feature being used explicitly provides its own Spellcasting Focus rule). If you are using one of the Spellcasting features to cast it then you would have to use the Spellcasting Focus which corresponds to that feature.
If you're a Cleric/Wizard or any other multiclass character with the Spellcasting feature, you must follow the next rule and use the spellcasting focus appropriate for the spell you're casting, which is associated with one of your classes.
Cleric:
Wizard:
When multiclassed, each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes as you determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, so a Wizard/Cleric casting Locate Object for example would be associated with the class it was prepared and use the Spellcasting Focus of said class.
Casting a spell prepared from something else such as Elven Lineage would rely on component pouch.
and also . . .
You are both reading that rule incorrectly.
The multiclass rule specifies which Spellcasting Ability is used when the spell is cast. It does not say anything about the Spellcasting Focus. These two things are listed seperately in every Spellcasting and Pact Magic feature.
I just finished explaining that these two rules might work differently mechanically. The Spellcasting Ability rule seems to be tied to using the feature in which the rule is written to cast the spell in question. That's supported by the wording of the multiclass rule. On the other hand, the Spellcasting Focus rule seems to be a passive rule which is always applied to the character once the feature is unlocked. If that is the case, then you might have more than one Spellcasting Focus rule which is always applied passively, and you might possess more than one physical item that can be used as a Spellcasting Focus. In that case, as long as the spell is cast from your mind, if the spell is a Cleric spell and also a Wizard spell then you can use either your Holy Symbol or your Arcane Focus when you cast it.
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes comma and you use that classes spellcasting ability. Two statements are in that sentence.
If you prepare Locate Object as a Cleric, you can't use your Wizard Arcane Focus because you prepared it as a Cleric spell.
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When multiclassed, the Spellcasting features have additional rules;
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, not both and each of the Wizard and Cleric Spellcasting feature details how you use those rules, which includes Spellcasting Focus. If the spell isn't associated with one of your class, you can't use any of it's Spellcasting rules, including it's Spellcasting Focus.
There is no such thing as preparing a spell "as a" Cleric spell. A spell is already a Cleric spell, or it isn't. If it is a Cleric spell, then you can use the Cleric Spellcasting feature to prepare it, since being a Cleric spell is a prerequisite for doing that.
When you do that, if you have more than one Spellcasting feature, then you make a note of which one you used (the prepared spell is associated with one of your classes) so that you remember to use the same one to cast the spell, since that is the only way to use the correct Spellcasting Ability in accordance with the multiclass rule. None of that has anything to do with somehow causing the spell to become a Cleric spell. That's not what the multiclass rule is talking about. That rule is just saying that if you used a Spellcasting feature to prepare a spell then you use the same one to cast the spell and you use the Spellcasting Ability which corresponds to that feature.
As I mentioned in my last couple of posts, I no longer believe that the Spellcasting Focus rules within each Spellcasting feature works that way. Based on how these specific rules are worded and based on how all of the general rules which pertain to a Spellcasting Focus are worded, this appears to be rule which always applies to the character once the feature is unlocked instead of it being tied to the use of the feature.
In that case, as long as the spell is cast from your mind and as long as the spell is on the correct (class) spell list, then you can use that Spellcasting Focus, even if you aren't using the Spellcasting feature to cast the spell. This is explicitly NOT how the Spellcasting Ability rule works, however.
Do you have any idea how much it undermines your positions to watch you waffle on interpretations of the rules and then immediately make objectively incorrect statements?
Your Class spells are not the entire class spell list, that's merely the list you can draw from, but only what you have "prepared" via the class' spellcasting feature; or some other class feature which "prepares" a spell for you. When you cast a prepared spell via a class' spellcasting feature, you must abide by the class' feature. If you're a multiclassed Cleric (Domain of Light) and Wizard, you cannot cast Fireball using anything from the Wizard's spellcasting feature unless you've also prepared it as a Wizard. And while there's nothing in the rules preventing someone from doing that, I fail to see the point. Ultimately, without dual preparation, you could not use Intelligence as your spellcasting ability or an arcane focus to satisfy the material component.
The only other time a Class' spell list matters is when someone is attempting to scribe a Spell Scroll, because the spell must be prepared (except for cantrips, apparently), or cast via a one, since that requires the spell to be on the class' spell list.
And even if I concede that wrong about spells granted by Eldritch Invocations, it's still dumb as heck that so many are incompatible with an arcane focus.
The rules for this topic haven't changed and are simple. In short: a spellcasting focus can be used only for the spells from the class associated with that focus.
Also... why are you making up things like "passive rules"? That way of explaining the rules doesn't help.
This is important, and it's totally true.
I mean, this forum really isn't meant to be some sort of debate club. I'm not trying to "win" at anything around here. What do I care if my position about something is "undermined"? If I am correct about something then I am correct. Perception doesn't change that. The whole purpose of this forum is to help the community as a whole to learn more about the Rules as they are Written. We are all supposed to be sharing knowledge. It's not a contest.
As has always been the case for me around here, when I think that I was wrong about something, I will say so. Unlike most other people around here. I believe that that's important for future readers so that they can eventually get to the best answers by the end of the thread.
Ok, people really need to stop saying this. It's wrong. This belief is like an absolute epidemic in this community. Constantly having to correct people on this point is becoming frustrating and exhausting. Can we move on from this belief soon please?
For those who still believe that it works this way, I implore you to please just try to do a brain dump of what you remember from the 2014 rules. Then, actually go back and really read the words that are written in the game for 2024.
A Warlock Spell is a spell that is on the Warlock spell list. The big list. That's just what the term means in this game under the 2024 ruleset. It's not debatable. That's what is actually written in the rules. Now, this doesn't really matter very much until a published feature within the game such as "Psychic Spells" from the Original Post comes along and uses this term within the feature by saying something like: "When you cast a Warlock spell . . . [something happens]". At that point, it becomes important to use the term correctly. In the moment, at the gaming table, if people are informally referring to a spell that was prepared by the Cleric Spellcasting feature as a "Cleric spell" because it was prepared that way . . . then, as long as everyone knows what each other is talking about then that's usually fine. But the problem with doing that is that if you get into this habit of using the term incorrectly, then when a published feature actually uses the term then there is a pretty good chance that you will end up misinterpreting how the feature actually works.
Whether or not a spell is a Warlock has absolutely nothing at all to do with how the spell was prepared, if it's even prepared at all. Nothing, nada, zilch, zippo, goose egg, exactly zero.
A Warlock spell is already a Warlock spell before you ever interact with it. In order to actually use the Pact Magic feature to prepare this spell in a certain way, the spell is required to already be a Warlock spell. If it's not already a Warlock spell, then you CANNOT use this feature to prepare it. It's not the other way around. First, it's a Warlock spell. THEN . . . IF it is a Warlock spell, you can use the Pact Magic feature to prepare that spell in such a way so that it (the Warlock spell) is placed onto your Warlock list of Prepared Spells of Level 1+. The spells on that small list are NOT Warlock spells because they are on that list. Saying so is 100% false. Instead, the small list is a list OF Warlock spells "that are available for you to cast with this feature".
While this is explicitly true of the Spellcasting Ability, I no longer believe that this is true of the Spellcasting Focus, based on how those specific rules are written and based on how all of the general rules which pertain to the Spellcasting Focus are written, which I have quoted and explained in my previous few posts. This point could still be open to debate though.
Do you have a better term for this concept that you'd prefer me to use? It's true that I made up the term (more accurately, I had seen it described like this in another thread a long time ago). I had to call it something.
A lot of class features just always apply to the character. The character doesn't have to be "using" the feature to benefit from it. Once the feature is unlocked due to reaching the appropriate Level in that Class, it just always applies. In fact, most class features are like that.
Example: Barbarian -- Unarmored Defense:
"While you aren’t wearing any armor, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Constitution modifiers. You can use a Shield and still gain this benefit."
This is just something that happens and always applies to this character. He doesn't have to declare that he is doing anything in a certain way to take advantage of this. If the character happens to not be wearing any armor, the character's AC is automatically calculated in the manner described. If this is the only method that this character has to calculate AC, then it always applies automatically. It's not possible for the player to "forget" to do something in order to trigger this ability. It's not possible for the player to "do something wrong" or "do something different" in such a way that this feature doesn't apply. It just always applies.
Contrast this with: Barbarian -- Reckless Attack:
"You can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with increased ferocity. When you make your first attack roll on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you Advantage on attack rolls using Strength until the start of your next turn, but attack rolls against you have Advantage during that time."
This is a special ability that the character can choose to DO. It does not always apply. He must make the decision to do this -- to proactively perform the activity of attacking in a specific manner, rather than in some other manner. You must "use" this feature in the manner described to trigger the outcomes that are described.
Do you see the difference?
The point that I've been making in my recent posts is that even though the Spellcasting Focus rule exists within the Pact Magic feature, which is generally a feature that you have to decide to "use" for certain spell preparation and casting activities, I now believe that the Spellcasting Focus portion of the feature behaves more like the Unarmored Defense example -- once you gain the Pact Magic feature, this rule is "unlocked" and just always applies to your character. This is due to how the Spellcasting Focus rule itself is worded as well as how all of the general rules for using a Spellcasting Focus are worded.
I no longer agree with this. This is true of the Spellcasting Ability. But I think that the rules for the Spellcasting Focus work differently. For the Spellcasting Focus, in my opinion, the only requirements are that the spell has to belong to the correct class (generally because it's on that Class's spell list) and that the spell is "prepared in your mind" for casting.
As I said, this particular point about the Spellcasting Focus is still up for debate and if someone quotes some rules that change my mind about this, I will be happy to acknowledge that.
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Okay, you didn't invent the terms. You've still made attempts to differentiate between "active" and "passive" rules, when no such terms exist in the books. [REDACTED]
The rules are the rules.
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On the previous page, I drew a distinction between the class spell lists and what actually constitutes a class spell for a character. You disagreed with my assessment and implied I was stuck in a 2014 mindset.
I would like to know precisely why you think I'm wrong, why you think I'm stuck in that mindset, and what you think substantially changed between 2014 and 2024. Because the only way forward is for us to start understanding each other, and I don't feel like you've made the effort to do that.
You are using the Cleric or Wizard Spellcasting feature to cast a spell as written in each of their respective Spellcasting feature: